Voices in My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast) Episode 622: Ginny Owens

Well, welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I am so grateful for all of you who are listening here today. Thank you for coming back for another episode. It's going to be a wonderful one, I know. Uh, we have as our guest today someone who has been Speaking for a long time about faith and longing and hope, and she's a Dove Award winner, sing— singer-songwriter. She's back with a brand new EP called A Different Kind of Water, and it's her first new collection in about 3 years. I have really been enjoying this music, and I've been looking forward to this opportunity to be able to talk and share, uh, with Jenny. So Jenny Owens, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Thank you ever so much, Rick. It's so great to be with you.

Well, it— I'm— I've really, as I told you just before we started, the, the music has been great, and I've been humming the songs as I've been walking down the hallways of the hospital. It's really been—

well, then my mission is accomplished. I'm so happy.

Exactly.

That's the greatest compliment you could give, as you know yourself. It's somebody's got their songs in your head, that's a good day.

That's right. And since we're on Voices in My Head, that's the, the perfect way to be talking about it today for sure. So, but different kind of water. I, I really love it, the, the whole concept of it, of, you know, coming up dry and looking for something that would satisfy us, and, and the lyrics of that. So I'm excited really of the feel of the whole EP. But as I was telling you just before we started recording, I was excited to, to get to hear from you today because it has been several years since you were on the podcast. And I found an old podcast with Andrew Osenga from 2018, The Pivot. And Andrew is an old friend of mine, and it's been fun listening and to hear so many of his good conversations that he has had with people. And I thought, wow, I bet a lot has changed since 2018, because as we look back, it's not, not quite 10 years, but about 8 years. But sometimes when I look back, I feel almost like a different person. Whenever I look over journeys that I've been on, and what I heard this morning from, from the you of the past of 2018, uh, you and Andrew were talking about, um, you're going into the seminary, I believe it was in New York City, and you had done some teaching at Belmont. Um, you, you both talked about another mutual friend of mine, Doug Serratt, who, uh, mixed, mixed and recorded one of my albums in Nashville. Uh, so I was I was just hearing all these connections at one time, and I thought this would be cool just to kind of catch up a little bit and see what changes have kind of come to your life and brought you into making new music at this time. Um, so maybe just, could you update us a little bit on kind of what life is like now? I don't know, are you still living in New York? Are you in Nashville?

8 years in New York. 8 years. Yeah, and I did finish seminary I got to study under the late Dr. Tim Keller, which was incredible.

Wow.

And I, um, I started sort of working at our church, helping out with music and helping out with women's ministry. And now I work— well, my other full-time job besides, you know, this is working at church. And so I am our director of worship arts now, and I also do all of our community engagement. All of our sort of mission outward-facing initiatives in, in New York City. Um, so it's a lot of fun. It's a lot. Um, but it's, uh, yeah, and not really where I thought I would be, but it's, um, it's been great fun. And I still can slip out of town to do events, which is great. And, um, so I, I think also since then I wrote another book called Singing in the Dark. Finding Hope in the Songs of Scripture, which was essentially a lot of my story interwoven with some of my favorite songs from scripture. And I just this morning at 5:45 turned in the manuscript for a new book called Courageous Compassion, which I'm pretty excited about as well. So it's been fun. It's just, uh, I— it's never dull, and I, I guess I'm thankful for that. I maybe would like a day for it to be dull, but I am really thankful that the Lord just has the sense of adventure and keeps leading me on new adventures. So it's been a lot of fun.

Well, you are, you are quite prolific, and congratulations on turning in a manuscript of another book. And that, in addition to making new music— all, all of those creative processes take a lot of time and a lot of discipline to be able to do those things. So congratulations, that's a huge accomplishment.

Well, thank you. It's, uh, it's, it's the Lord. I, I don't know how, how I got it done, but here we are.

So, well, it, it's interesting to contrast how much you've been doing, um, with the title track of your EP, Different Kind of Water, because you sing about digging up wells that come up dry. And, um, and it sounds like you haven't actually had much of a dry period. You might have had a tired period, um, and maybe you're even still there, but it seems like you've really been, uh, having some rich content that's been coming out. I really like especially the songs, at least several of them on the EP are very upbeat and uplifting, but they're asking some pretty deep searching questions too, which you don't always have songs that make you kind of want to dance a little bit while you're asking deep questions about digging wells that come up dry. So true. But how have you experienced this time of creativity. Some people, when they, when they are feeling a little dry in their lives, they actually do start writing more. I, I think it's part of the search. And I'm just curious about this particular EP that kind of has themes about, um, depending on God and, and letting go and things and, and digging for wells. Um, what's it been like for you in the writing of these songs? Have you been kind of feeling like you're, you're writing from kind of an exhausted place or a place that's been sort of refreshing?

Yeah, well, a little bit of, um, a little bit of exhausting, I think, but also, um, I don't know, also it's been interesting living in New York and writing music as opposed to Nashville, just because I think it, it puts you in— it has put me in a different headspace. So in a great way, um, I think because it just— you can kind of try anything and do anything, you know. Because I'm not in Nashville, I don't feel like the rules apply quite as much. Yeah, even though they maybe they do. But, but honestly, all of these songs, um, are really the conversations that I've been having or want to have with friends who, uh, who don't believe, um, in what I believe. And, and so they're really kind of, as we call it, spiritual conversations or gospel conversations. About things that I've struggled with, and I think any person who's a Christian would struggle with, like just, you know, trying to find, um, trying to find our water, our comfort, our peace, our life in something that just can't satisfy us, you know. And so in a sense, that's what all the songs are about on some level. And so, but each one of them is just some, some conversation, um, that I, that I have been, you know, kind of wrestling through with a friend or, or wanting to have and wanting to invite others to, to have as well. Like, when we talk about faith, like, how do we, how do we do it? Like, what are some of the things that we all can relate to? And, um, so, so really that's where, where each of these songs came from. And so as a result, like, some of these songs I even began writing before my last project came out. Um, so they, they've taken a while to, to get right and to, uh, to work out. Um, but, but it's been fun trying, and I'm really, really grateful for, for the result.

Well, I, I appreciate the, the process that you have and the conversations that you have, and I think there's a real humility that I hear as well whenever you're putting your lyrics together, even if they are in conversation with people of other faiths. Sometimes we can almost feel like, as Christians, at least this is the perception that is so often had, is that it's like, well, we feel like we have all the answers, and so everybody else is wrong, so you have to come to our side. But I don't, I don't read that at all in, uh, and when I listen to your music and when I listen to these songs in particular, it feels much more like an invitation into a conversation. And, and, and, and even when you're singing songs about, um, kind of feeling, um, lost— and I wanted to have all the lyrics in front of me, and doggone it, I didn't do it tonight because I've had a full day at work. But I was listening on the way home to some of the songs again, um, and, and the one that really was speaking to me tonight was about letting this go. All right, the song, yeah, Let This Go.

Yeah.

And the idea of things that we need to leave behind and things that we need to let go. And that can be so difficult, especially in the setting where I am in a hospital. I feel like a song like this could actually speak to many patients that I spend time with. Often they're struggling with, there was the me before I got sick and now there's the me afterwards. And it's really difficult to give up that I may never be that person exactly again, you know. Yes, absolutely. And that can really be something that can drag a person down. But I love that you use the word brave in the song. Got a lot to lose, but I must be brave. And there's a lot of courage in the music that you share.

Oh, thank you. Yeah, I was really wrestling. I mean, I'm one of those people that holds on to a lot. And, um, and so in a sense, that song is about just learning to forgive, but also just to let go of whatever, whatever, you know, things are in my mind, or, or, you know, conversations or events that I'm reliving over and over again. It's just like, you gotta, you gotta let it roll off. You gotta cast it in the sea. And so, um, yeah, and as I sort of even was working out that song, uh, with my friend Chrissy, I felt like, um, you know, we, we were like-minded in that, you know, it kind of doesn't matter what your story is, kind of as you're saying too, it doesn't matter what, what you're wrestling through, but we're always trying to let go of things or needing to let go of things. That are dragging us down. So, um, so I'm glad to be able to write about it.

Yeah. And, you know, I, interestingly enough, I, I had a two-podcast morning before work today. One was the one where I was listening to you, and the other was a new episode with, with Amy Grant. Um, she was on Wildcard, which is an NPR podcast, and they, they ask these different questions. Um, it's like a game. And she said something that was so interesting, and it actually made me think of this this particular song that you wrote, because she said she spent some time with a counselor and she was wrestling with her younger self and not being that person anymore and trying to become her new identity. And she said it was recommended to her by a counselor to write a— oh shoot, the word, I'm tired and I apologize— the word, a eulogy. That's the word I was looking for. Said to write a eulogy to her younger self as a way sort of transitioning And, um, and there's— I see a lot of that in this song in some ways, because you even say the words, 'To love you is to let this go. To love me is to let this go.' And I just think that's a beautiful way to express it, that, that we are loving, um, God's divine presence in us by letting it go, but we're also loving ourselves by doing that. It's, it's a real element of self-care, um, and I, I just think you beautifully put it into a song.

And so, man, well, thank you, thank you. Yeah, you know, you never quite know, especially when you're— when, you know, for songwriters, and right, we're always trying to sort of sort out ourselves, uh, in a song and, you know, also encourage others as we do it. You know, we don't want to sort out all the deep dark stuff, we just— but the enough of it that like we— where we find the a common ground with our listeners. And so, but you never know, right? You write it into a song and then you hope that folks can connect with it. And so I'm really glad that that connected with you.

Well, I'm grateful too. There are days when I need it especially, and sometimes you come across songs that just really speak. And so these are definitely songs that are working and speaking to me right now. So Well, well, I want, uh, listeners to, to go and check out the new EP, A Different Kind of Water. I think it's great. Can you mind if I ask you a couple New York questions about just kind of living there too? Because, um, I think they're going to love the music when they hear it, but we want to go behind the music a little bit today too. Um, what— and I, I know that you have had mentioned this, uh, before about the people in New York, but New York gets a bad rap sometimes for being, you know, rude and people who are, um maybe ruder than other parts of the country, but when I have visited there, that has not been my experience. I've actually found them to be very warm and welcoming and hospitable whenever I've been in New York City. What is your experience of community like living there in New York? I just, I just love to hear some of maybe your experiences of what it's been like being in the city for you over these years.

Yeah, well, you definitely can meet some super kind people and some very rude people. Yeah, on the street, so you get both. Um, but I have been incredibly just grateful for my community here. Um, I have, um, funnily enough, I live down the, the hall from friends that attend the church, at the same church as I do, and we host a small group together. And so sometimes they host and sometimes I host. And then because I'm, um, in charge of worship, I have a lot of rehearsals and gatherings at my place. And that's a lot of fun. So, you know, people in New York are not afraid to cram into an apartment. Yeah, I mean, you know, we can cram 20 people into my, you know, very small apartment, which is, is really fun. So, um, I think it's really been special to just, um, you know, have this beautiful group of friends from all over, um, and diverse, you know, it's, it's every nation, tribe, and tongue even in our church, but certainly in this city. And so I actually just had a birthday party for myself the other day, which was so fun. It's just an excuse after church to get people together, so But just thinking about just the diversity of my community and my friends and how they all have such beautiful gifts and they're all so different and, you know, all from different walks of life and, you know, different ethnicities. So it's really sweet in that way. And yeah, I do think sometimes being out in the thick of New York can, can be a lot. So I am glad that I get to work from home several days a week. Yeah, so I don't have to go out into the fray if I don't want to. But, um, but you know, you find your way. You live here long enough and you just sort of figure it out. So I'm very thankful for that.

Well, I'm grateful that you're finding good community around you. I think a lot of people struggle with that, and many people are very isolated and very alone in their lives. And I feel like even in a big city, sometimes maybe that's where people feel the most isolated because there's just so much happening and so much going on. But it sounds like you really have found a great sense of community, not only with the church but then the people that live near you and, and live with you. So, um, I'm great— I'm very glad that you've had that experience. How is it contrasted to, to where I think I'm wondering about the musical culture too for you as a creative person in New York. I understand what you said a few minutes ago about not being in Nashville, you feel a little more free. And I've talked with several writers because I used to live in Nashville eons ago now at this point, but I very much found that to be my experience of— I missed the culture of songwriters all around me, but I always also felt very insignificant and always comparing myself to other people, like, right? Because you, you had like the best writers in the world. Now New York City also has some pretty amazing songwriters, but I'm just curious about the way that you interact with other musicians there.

Yeah, it's really different. So I still go back to Nashville to do my recording at this point. I just haven't been able to replace that here. Yeah, um, but I, you know, we have, um, like most of our church is finance people, so that's really funny. Who are you?

You're so weird.

Um, but we have— yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty interesting. So our, our musicians who are on stage on Sunday mornings, most of them play Broadway, and all of them play Broadway and jazz gigs. And so that's pretty different. So I kind of have to arrange according to their skill level. Like, you don't want them to always have to just play the same 4 chords and over and over. I mean, it kind of makes all of us a little bored, and it would make them really bored. So, you know, trying to figure out how to color hymns and also modern worship songs in a way that sort of fits that kind of jazz Broadway New York sound is, is pretty fun. It's an interesting challenge. Um, and but then, yeah, so then a lot of our singers, you know, like one of my singers used to sing backup for Ray Charles.

Oh wow.

And another one, or several others, are on Broadway or have done touring shows. And then, you know, some are like, one of them went to LaGuardia High School, which is Fame. You know, that, yeah, that's what fame was built around. And, um, you know, he, he's rubbed shoulders with all kinds of people, so it's, it's really fun. But it's very diverse, so there's no like CCM singers, um, in my space, um, and not really even any singer-songwriters so much. Everybody's kind of more in the kind of, you know, Broadway, jazz, or even pop kind of R&B zone. So, so yeah, it's really different, um, but it's, it's a lot of fun. It really is. Um, now that I kind of understand how it works, I've, I've enjoyed— I've started to enjoy it more. Um, but it's, it's, it's nothing like Nashville in that, in that way. It's really, really a whole, whole lot of new, um, yeah, ways of, of doing music.

So are you a big Broadway music fan yourself?

You know, I do love a good Broadway musical. I don't go frequently because it's pretty expensive and I don't, I don't have time. Yeah, but I do, I do like a good musical, um, and I, I do try and go to support my friends who are doing musicals, um, just at, you know, I think being a Christian on Broadway is pretty tough.

Yeah.

Also. So love to, to be able to support, support them. And but yeah, you know, I think I've always kind of had a musical tendency to my writing. Like, it's sort of a— there's a musical hint, musical vibe somewhere in there. Um, so now I get to sort of fully own that, which is fun.

Well, that's great. In my writing for church, I would think that would be a lot of fun, and it would stretch you in different ways than like CCM type music and Sometimes I do get tired of the same 4 or 5 chords that worship songs have. And I was a music pastor for about 25 years, and that when I became a full-time chaplain, I stepped aside from that. But I just play at church now, and sometimes I think, wow, this is a lot of the repetitive chords. I didn't realize how much I was doing before. So I bet that is a lot of fun to stretch with those other musicians as well and, and to try to take your craft in different places. So thank you for sharing.

Yeah, it's, it's a blast, and it's kind of how I'm wired. I always, even in Nashville, I always loved like R&B chords and, and, you know, chromatic, um, chord progressions.

And every—

all my musicians would be like, what are you— like, my band members would be like, what are you doing? What, what are we trying to do? So it's fun now because nobody asks that. They're like, yeah, cool, okay.

That's great. Well, I really appreciate you taking some time tonight to talk about your music, and I'm excited for you that you have another new book coming out. And I just really appreciate the ministry that you've done over the years, and I know that it's, uh, only the tip of the iceberg of what must be ahead for you. Um, thank you for just continuing to to live out your, your faith in front of people and, and not shying away from the questions along the way. I think that's just such an important part of our journey, and that you're able to express that in your music as well is a wonderful way to help other people. I'm going to go back to the word invite. It's a way of inviting people in. So thank you for that. Um, is there anything that you wanted to talk about pertaining to this new EP, or maybe to the new book that you just finished writing, or whatever you're excited about right now that we didn't cover as we were just kind of talking tonight here on the podcast. I'd love to give you a chance to share about that.

Oh man, well, I think we covered quite a bit. Um, the book though will be out hopefully the end of January, and it's called Courageous Compassion: Reclaiming Christ's Call to Do Justice and Love Mercy. And it's really essentially a sort of practical guide to what does that mean? Like, what do we do as Christians? So not like, okay, go, go work here or do that. But it's more like really trying to arm people with some ideas of just how to think about and live out, you know, Jesus' call and God's call in the Old Testament too, for us to, to do justice and love mercy. In the world.

Well, yeah, so, well, maybe we can have you back on again to talk about it whenever it officially releases. It sounds like a very needed book for our times right now.

So I hope so, definitely hope so.

Well, for everybody listening, I will make sure that in the show notes we will have links to Jenny's music and to, uh, other resources that she has come up with over the years. Um, but, and by the way, I wanted to tell you this, I felt so dumb. I was looking through the, the liner notes um, not liner notes per se, but you know, Apple Music now actually lets us see who writes the songs and who the musicians are and things. So I feel like we got liner notes back, uh, after a long time. And I kept seeing Virginia Owens, and I thought, how did I all these years not know that your name is Virginia? I kept thinking, thinking— I just felt really dumb whenever I saw that. But it took me a minute, and I was like, who's this Virginia that's writing all these? Oh, it's Jenny. That makes sense. So So anyway, uh, we will have links in the show notes for everybody listening. And it's such a pleasure. Thank you for taking time again, Jenny Owens, to come back on the show. We look forward to having you again.

Thank you so much. Great to talk to you, Rick.

All right. And thank you all for listening, and we'll see you here next week. God bless.