Voices In My Head (The Rick Lee James Podcast) Episode 507 - Michael In The Middle (Crossover Podcas

Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James. I'm a recording artist, a singer, songwriter, author, worship leader, an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene, and most recently, a hospital chaplain. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss things that are on my mind. The Voices in My Head. Music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more are all on the table as I discuss them here with friends and colleagues and sometimes just by myself, processing what I'm learning in the moment. Make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes, tweeting to me @RickLeeJames on Twitter, and by joining my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you are interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the loudest voices in my head, which is ironic because he was such a quiet person. Also, if you do want to be notified about all of my latest releases, not just this podcast, sign up for email notifications on my Substack page found at rickleejames.substack.com.

Substack.com.

Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so let's get to the latest episode of Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast.

Hey friends, Rick Lee James here. Welcome back to Voices in My Head. I wanted to let you all know that this episode was recorded on location in Nashville, Tennessee. I was actually a guest on the Michael in the In the Middle podcast. Michael Johnson is an old friend of mine, and he has a great podcast that I really wanted you to hear. And he was gracious enough to have me on as a guest on March 20th, 2023. I was actually in town because of Fred Rogers' 95th birthday celebration, which was held at the Steinway Piano Gallery. And I believe you're going to get to hear a little bit about that on the podcast today. But you can find Michael in the Middle on YouTube. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. But I wanted to give you a chance to listen to the audio of this. Although if you go to the Michael in the Middle YouTube channel, you'll be able to watch our conversation. It was a really nice time sitting in some comfy leather chairs and having this conversation. Michael was so gracious to interview me, ask me about my life and what I'm doing with it, and my music and my podcasts and all kinds of stuff. And I just really appreciate him, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to share what he's doing on my program, Voices in My Head. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation with me and Michael Johnson on the Michael in the Middle podcast.

Hey, I'm Michael, and this is Michael in the Middle. It's an intergenerational relational podcast for people who are interested in better human interaction. I'm glad you're here. Welcome in to episode 31. Does the number 31 mean anything to you?

31?

I wore 31 in softball, church softball, for a while. That's about the only attachment to 31 right now, or 30 Wonderful Flavors, right?

There you go.

Baskin-Robbins.

That's right, that's right, that's good stuff. I haven't had Baskin-Robbins forever.

This is Rick Lee James, a friend of mine of many years, and as is often the case, a purple river runs through it. Trevecca Purple. I think that's how we first came in contact with each other, although your folks had a connection to Dixon County and— yes, Jason Chapel and Camp Garner Creek and all that way back, right?

Yeah, I used to— I went to high school in Dixon, and that's actually where I met your dad the first time. He was always coming over to the campground, um, and the Eby's, you know, that worked there, they were good friends with them. So I worked in the dish room on Camp Garner Creek for a while, and then I graduated up to lawnmower, uh, right before I went Travecka. So my last summer was mowing yards all at the campground.

That's great.

Those were good times. Sometimes I wish I could go back to then. That was a, that was a good time in my life.

What is it about certain places, you know, just patches of ground that kind of get a hold of you? I mean, that, that area down there on, you know, Garner Creek and Sam Hollow Road, that, that's very special to our family and I recognize that there are probably a lot of people who would be listening or watching who— what are you guys talking about? Well, I'm talking about a place that has shared experiences that end up meaning a lot to you, and I think all of us have some of those kinds of places. Where were you originally, you know, like born, raised? And tell me a little bit about your family of origin and all that.

Well, I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, and because my dad was a pastor, we moved a lot, so I kind of grew up in Kentucky, Indiana. We lived Tennessee for a bit, so when I was in high school, I was in Dixon, Tennessee for most of my high school and then moved to Trevecca, but we've— gosh, they spent time in Florida. I've lived in North Carolina. I've been all kind of all over the place. So when you, when you meet not just pastors, but I think Nazarene pastors, it seems like there's a lot of moving around. And so that was definitely my life for many, many years. However, I have lived just myself. I've lived in Springfield, Ohio for over 21 years now. It's, uh, I'm the long-termer of the family, I guess, that I stay in one place.

I've traveled so much, and I remember going with the Trevecca basketball team to a Cedarville basketball game because we organized an alumni event around that. And apropos of nothing at this point, just remembering places that I've stayed and traveled to and all that. Springfield is a really interesting town, and it probably has one of the coolest Courtyards by Marriott of anywhere I've ever stayed for that brand. You know, it's an older building that they made a really cool hotel out of it. And so Springfield for 21 years. What took you there?

I went as a youth pastor, actually. And while I was there, our senior pastor left and our music pastor left, and they needed somebody to do music. And, um, when I went, the church didn't even know I did music. I just kind of went as, as following a call. I wasn't sure why, but I felt like I was supposed to be there. Um, and then little by little, um Yeah, it led into other things, and I've been on staff. I still am on staff part-time at that church, at Home Road Church of the Nazarene, um, but it's evolved into other things over the years. So they gave me permission probably close to 15 years ago now to where when I have an invite, I'm allowed to go and do concerts and other places, and that allowed me the freedom to do things not only at my local church and have a bass there, because often when you're doing music, it is during the week. It's not always on Sunday. So I get to be at church a lot of the time, but it enabled me to— I knew I was supposed to be doing more with songwriting and kind of broadening that ministry. So it enabled me to do some stuff with Lifeway Worship here in town with Craig Adams, you know, a few years ago. And we did an album with Lifeway called Hymns, Prayers, and Invitations. So that opened up some more doors of doing like congregational worship music, not only at my church but in other churches. And, um, I played at, uh, one or two of the National Worship Leader Conferences, you know, when they came through. And then that happened here at Trevecca a few years back too. And so it all kind of overlaps. Um, but, but I have been, yeah, at that same church with those good people in Springfield for a long time. They put up with me.

That's beautiful. It's beautiful. I know you at least play guitar and piano because I've seen that in your video. Which came first? Did you play the piano or the guitar first?

Guitar definitely came first. I tried piano as a kid, but I just didn't take to it. I always feel like if you're a musician, you have to find that instrument that clicks for you before the other ones do. And I mean, I had tried violin as a kid. I tried trombone. I tried, you know, I wanted to do other things, but when I was about 15 at Camp Garner Creek, right on, you know, my dad was pastor in that church. They paid for me to get guitar lessons and I started playing then and I just took to it like a duck to water, as they say.

It was just really—

I felt like at the time it was the only thing I was good at, you know, it was just kind of like, wow, this is great, I finally found my niche. And that opened me up to piano and harmonica and mandolin and, you know, banjo, all these different other instruments. So, but definitely guitar came first.

It's kind of my first love, music Basically, did you, uh, did you find yourself just wanting to play all the time?

Oh yeah, yeah. And being so far out in the country, for the listeners who might know where Camp Garner Creek is, um, I mean, it was, it was a good— the joke is we, we were so far out in the country we'd go toward town to hunt, you know.

I love that joke.

That's the old joke. I love it. I can't remember who said it, but it felt like that, you know. So there wasn't a lot to do do other than, you know, when I wasn't mowing grass or in the dishroom.

Yeah.

So yeah, sometimes 3, 4 hours a day I would just sit and play. I just loved it so much, and I wanted to be like a career studio musician, but I'm, I'm still not good enough to do that. Those guys are amazing when they come in and play.

Well, it's— the guitar has, you know, its own unique way of connecting to a listener's ear. Every instrument has the capacity to be sort of experienced in ways by listeners. But, uh, I have to admit that guitar music— I play piano a little bit, and I love to hear great keyboardists, but I don't know, there's something about a guitar that just has an expression, an expressive ability all its own, you know. And so I grew up— I'm a little bit older than you, but I grew up listening to a brand of music that could be, I guess, led by, headlined by Glen Campbell. You know, in the '60s and '70s, Glen Campbell and Eddie Arnold and people like that. A little bit country, but very melodic, and you could add strings to it. It was, but you know, like Glen Campbell, I mean, is he somebody that you have Who were your guitar influences? That's what I want to know.

I did like Glen Campbell's playing. He was a little bit probably before my time when he was popular, but I got to be a fan of his when I found out like what a versatile musician he was. So he was playing, uh, you know, in, in recording studios, I think in California back in the '60s and '70s on so many like famous sessions. I think he played on some of the famous Beach Boys.

Oh yeah, definitely Beach Boys.

Yeah.

Um, so you wouldn't suspect it, you know, Rhinestone Cowboy, but he played on a lot of hits that were not even his hits, right? Um, but, you know, I, I loved country guitar players like Vince Gill and Ricky Skaggs and Steve Warner and people like that. Yeah, I would try to play like Chet Atkins as much as I could.

Oh man.

Yeah.

Um, so I, I kind of dabbled a lot of those things, but then there was a real kind of a rock and roll side to it that I liked as well. So I would listen to, you know, it was kind of scandalous back then, but Jimi Hendrix, you know, I guess sneak that kind of music in to try to learn. Um, I loved Eric Clapton and bluesy type musicians, Stevie Ray Vaughan. Um, so I just, I just loved anything with the guitar. So one point or another, um, music kind of shifted to where the focus became singers that could play and sing, you know. It wasn't, it wasn't just that they were good singers.

Yeah.

Um, like Then when— by the time Brad Paisley came around several years ago, and that guy could play anything on guitar, I mean, and even would do instrumental albums, it was like, yes, that's, you know, this is the kind of music I like, you know.

I love that.

Um, Stephen Curtis Chapman became a big influence because he's— I'm not sure a lot of people know what a versatile musician he is outside of just the songwriting.

I— yeah, I was gonna say, he's He is probably one of the more underrated guitarists, you know, for singer-songwriters that we're all aware of. We think about the great songs, but man, I've seen him live several times, and even in subsequent years, you know, you'd see things that he's recorded. I mean, God, he is a virtuoso. You're right.

Yeah, no doubt. And on so many instruments. He'll come out and grab a dobro and play in the middle of a rock song, and you're like, well, it sounds great, you know.

So yeah, it's I remember, you know, as a teen, David Gates and Bread, and I don't know if that name means anything to you at all, but David Gates was a son of a Baptist or Assembly of God pastor, and he's lead singer for Bread, and he, you know, wrote a lot of their songs, and but I think I remember this correctly, I think he played 17 different instruments and played them well, you know, it's like you were talking about how learning guitar then allowed you, yeah, you know, to start learning other instruments as well. That's, that's so cool. What's a— what's the first song you ever wrote?

Oh my goodness, I— you don't want to hear the first one I ever wrote. Uh, I, I remember playing one, um, gosh, I couldn't even remember the song now, but I think it was called Almighty was the name of it. I remember playing it for my church, um, and I didn't know quite what went into songwriting. I'm still learning at this point, you know, decades later. But it was not something that was probably a very good song, but it meant a lot to me, and I was expressing my faith as a teenager.

Awesome.

Doing that in church, and I remember a lot of encouragement from the church people when I played it. And I also learned that a lot of guitarists suffer from sounding like Bob Dylan when they're learning to play and sing. Uh, I remember that was one of the first comments— you sound like Bob Dylan. And I do, you know, so I had to, I had to learn to like some vocal techniques. I wouldn't sound like this when I sang all the time, but you know, it's just, it's kind of interesting for me. You have to work not to sound that way sometimes because you're so wrapped up. But, uh, but yeah, that— so that would have been probably the first song.

That's cool.

But I don't even know where the lyrics would be.

I want to get into a couple of songs that you've written, you know, as we go along, and maybe one here in just a minute. But you're here in Nashville, came down from Springfield, Ohio, and I know this, but I'm setting this up because I want you to— it's going to allow us to talk a little bit about, you know, some of the reasons why we're involved in some of the things that we are. So just tell the folks what brought you to Nashville on this particular trip.

Okay, what a lot of people don't know about me is I run a Twitter account called— you can find it @MrRogersSay. I was going to call it Mr. Rogers Says, but I ran out of letters on Twitter, so I couldn't do it all. But that is a site where every day I just put out quotes from Fred Rogers. He used to do Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood. Um, it just caught on and grew and grew and grew. It has like, I don't know, well over 90,000 followers at this point. Oh yeah, just so many people. And I have, uh, one day, you know, celebrities— Pink will retweet it or something, and then I have, you know, 500 more followers. Or Zachary Levi, you know, he'll—

that's wonderful.

Yeah, it's just amazing. And it's a very kind community. Um, so at the time of our recording On, on the 20th of March, uh, it would have been Fred Rogers' 95th birthday. So there is a special album being released, uh, today. It's, it's a deluxe edition of some stuff that's been done in the past, um, and this is a new edition. And so there's artists doing the music of Fred Rogers. So it's everybody diverse as, um, Jackie Velasquez, Sandy Patty, Lee Greenwood, John Secada, um, uh, I, I, the, the list is really long and I, I can't— I think Ricky Skaggs is on this one.

That's amazing.

Kellie Pickler. So anyway, tonight is an event at the Steinway Piano Gallery because Fred Rogers played Steinway pianos. And a friend of mine who produced this album, he's kind of putting on this event, and he's really leading the charge of trying to get Fred Rogers music into the Great American Songbook, which is usually like, you know, these jazz standards.

Yeah.

But Fred Rogers was so prolific. But because I have such a large presence related to Fred Rogers, which I love, I love being associated with that kind of kindness, um, usually, um, they'll reach out when there's a project or something like that going on. So I'm, I'm kind of here today to celebrate the life of Fred Rogers on what would have been his 95th birthday.

I love that.

And they're going to have some wonderful musicians there tonight, and I'm just looking forward to kind of—

good for you—

sitting and watching and being a part of it. So I, I came for one day just to be a part of this. And to visit with you.

Well, that's— I'm honored to have you here on the pod. I'm still relatively, you know, new at the game. I'm working on that and all. But I want to talk a little bit about why I'm doing this, because it relates to a song that you wrote. But why, why are, why are you podcasting? Why are you doing you know, the Twitter thing that you're doing. What, what's some of the background for why you got involved in it?

Well, I started, um, I have a couple of podcasts I do. One is called— my main one is called Voices in My Head, the Rick Lee James podcast, which we now have over 500 episodes on. Unbelievable.

That's amazing.

Yeah. Um, and I originally started that because when I was doing music, I felt like it would be a good way to kind of be an extension to that for me to not only get more of a presence and to meet more people, but also it was a way that I could just meet people that interest me. And sure, and so I have had over the years, um, the reason I call it Voices in My Head is I didn't want to be stuck to just one topic.

Sure.

So we've had, uh, one of my favorite episodes was if you've seen the movie Groundhog Day, the, the actor Stephen Tobolowsky played, um, Ned Ryerson, um, and he's been in so many movies, TV shows.

For that first step. It's a—

it's a doozy.

Exactly. Um, well, he, he wrote a great book called My Adventures with God, really, about his kind of recapturing his Jewish faith. And so when he was doing that book, like, I was like, I want to talk to him and hear.

Yeah.

So episodes like that become for me like some of my very favorites because they're really people that are involved in— whether it be songwriters I have on, uh, whether it be actors or authors or sometimes pastors. And occasionally it's just me with things on my heart, things in my mind. Um, I just love doing that, and I love meeting people and kind of picking their brains. And matter of fact, last week I recorded an episode with Shane Claiborne, who would be somebody you'd really love. Uh, and I've had Shane on a couple times, and he has a new book that's, you know, about rethinking life and, and rethinking not just from the aspect of being pro-life about babies being born, but what does it mean from womb to tomb, really being Christian to honor life and the life that God gives. So conversations like that have been, you know, so meaningful. And that's, that's one reason I do that podcast.

And the other one, you got Voices in My Head, and then there's a second one.

The other one is related to the Fred Rogers stuff. It's called Welcome to the Neighborhood. And, uh, and I've had a number of people that are not only just influenced, and like people that I mentioned that are on the album tonight, they've come on and talked, but, uh, people that knew Fred Rogers or people that have written books about him, artists that do like children's books related to that. So that's been kind of another fun outlet. But, um, that's, that's just been— those are the two podcasts I do, uh, but Voices in My Head is the most regular one.

Every Wednesday, a new When I run a clip of your song that talks about loving your enemies, what's the exact title?

It's called Love Our Enemies.

Love Your Enemies. Love Our Enemies. So we're gonna play a little clip of that song and then I'll come back and talk to you about a little bit. Okay.

Okay.

God has made this declaration through his son, the Prince of Peace. If we will enter in his kingdom, we must love our enemies. Lord, deliver us from hatred. Prejudice and cruelty. Come remove discrimination, that the truth may set us free. Lord and Maker of creation, every life is dear to thee. In the holy name of Jesus. Help us love our enemies.

So, Rick, um, when I first started thinking about this, um, podcast idea, it was actually sort of a part of a progression of things that I've been thinking about for a long time. I mean, emotionally, um, dispositionally, I often have found myself in between people, you know, on the edges, you know, of polar opposites or extremes, or find myself being friends with people who aren't friends with each other and things like that. And so, you know, there's nothing heroic in any of that. It's just kind of how I've found myself. And so this podcast, Michael in the Middle, is not just about trying to take a middle road. Theologically, you know, Jesus was on a cross between two extremes, so to speak. The cross was in the middle of, you know, human history. And so there's a little bit of theological underpinnings to all that. But this song, "Love Our Enemies," it just really hit me beautifully. I I believe that we ought to be able to get along better even if we don't agree, you know. And so what I would like to know in terms of the creative process, where'd that song come from? How long did it take to write? What's been— tell me about that song and maybe some of its impact.

Well, thanks for that question. Actually, I think it came from originally me just struggling through the hard teachings of Jesus. You know, how do you love your enemies really? You know, um, it's, it's hard enough to love the people you love sometimes, um, to go into a whole other area of— I think the spirit of it and what Jesus is offering us is not just that we love in word but in action, in a way that we hope and pray that our enemies could actually become no longer enemies but actually friends, you know, that there could be a transformation not only in them but in us too, you know, that maybe the ones that we've forgotten how to love are enemies. Maybe it's not so much them forgetting how to love us. So I wrote it initially as, as kind of a hymn. I wanted it to be like a modern hymn that we could sing, and it had a lot of different structures to it in the beginning, but I knew I wanted it to be in a structure that hopefully churches could sing. And find some place in their congregations. So the original feel of it had a very hymn-like feel, for lack of a better word. It could have been something you would hear from like a Wesley song or something like that. But then that didn't feel right. Funny story about this was because so often you're writing songs and you don't always realize what you're being influenced by. When I went into the studio to record that in New York, the guys started listening and they said, this melody sounds— uh, because I changed it 2 or 3 times. Yeah, I said, this melody, um, sounds an awful lot like What a Beautiful Name It Is. And I listened and I went, oh man, it does. So I had to change it again in the studio to make it kind of what it was. Yeah, so it was literally like being rewritten, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 times before it was in the final form. And I'm so glad they caught it when it was in the studio.

Certainly.

Yeah, because sometimes you'll go in with a song— I've heard other artists say that, and to my knowledge, that's the first time it happened to me in that way— but I was like, oh no, it's too similar, so we got to change it. But the way that it, that it turned out, um, I didn't know when I was releasing it that we would be in such a kind of pivotal moment as a nation where, um, at the time that the video came out, I think we were right in the midst of George Floyd happening. We're in the midst of, you know, uh, people yelling on one side to the other, you know. There's Republicans here, Democrats here, never the twain shall not only meet but even talk to each other, you know. Um, and it just felt like making the music video the way it was was important to like show things that were happening in our world at the time. So there's all kinds of riots going on in the video. There's people with picket signs. There's, you know, just— it's kind of a a glimpse into where we were as a culture at that moment. So I felt like the music video was just as important, like, as the song. It felt like a time capsule, you know, in the moment where we were. And in fact, when we recorded the video for the song, we were kind of in the midst of the pandemic still, and we were— some of us not even sure if we wanted to be in the same room without masks on when we were recording. And we were still trying to figure out how do we— how do we love each other well, you know, in this time. There was not a vaccine, there was not any— you know, like, it was still so new, nobody knew what to do exactly. And that's a— that was a very eerie feeling. I mean, we all that lived through it will always remember that kind of like, should I be breathing the same air right now? And so there was just so many questions swarming through, but all of it was about struggling with that teaching of Jesus, you know, what does it mean to love those people who we've forgotten how to love? And how do we actually live out the true call of Jesus? And I don't think it's just a metaphor. I think he really wants us to try to do that.

Yeah, I think about this a lot as more and more friendships have been made available to me by people who do not necessarily follow after Christ. They represent different religions or no religion at all, and man, I want to be the kind of person that represents who Jesus really is in a way that would be winsome or enticing to them, as opposed to a further dividing line, you know. And I wonder sometimes how we're doing on that front, but I don't want to get too bogged down on that. I just really like the song. Well, thank you, and congratulations on the really fine production of it. Tell me about the band. Who's in that room with you that wasn't sure they wanted to be together?

Well, the band was mostly made made up of people from my church back in Springfield, Ohio. They're not the ones that are playing on the album. Yeah, on the album, most of the musicians— I played several of the instruments, and then the ones that were not me were— there's a band called Brothers McClurg, which are really great out of New York, and I recorded in their studios, Old Bear Recording Studios.

Nice.

And, um, so it was kind of a different sort of flavor. And Old Bear and them, they actually were just a part of this producing this new Rich Mullins album that just came out, Bellsburg, with UTR Media. So there's a lot of intersect with like people in Nashville and my friends in New York and kind of everybody all—

and you're right there in the middle of it, right there in the middle of it in Ohio.

So we had a different crew in the studio than we had in the video, but everybody learned their parts and came in and played, and it was, it was a great way, and it gave some ownership to everybody too.

I feel like when we did it, you know, getting in the middle of things like this, and I'm obviously because of the name of the podcast, but also just my own natural bent toward things, being in the middle of a situation or being in between two extremes in terms of schools of thought and all of that, that's not a lukewarm stance, you know. I mean, I know like biblical admonition from Jesus, I'd rather you'd be hot or cold. You know, I think it takes a lot of resolve sometimes to be in the middle of people, in the middle of situations. And there has to be some sort of ballast there, you know, to use a term from, you know, being out on the water. And if you don't have that balance in the middle, the thing that helps keep you afloat, you know, you can you can take on water from one side or the other. I think it takes a lot of commitment to try to stand in between situations and people, and whether that's been your intention or not, the messages of your music seem to have indicated that that's kind of where you find yourself a lot of times.

Yeah, well, thank you for that. I think I do. And, you know, it's not even always I don't think we can always stay in that middle ground, but I think there are ways to figure out where, if we can speak the truth in love, we can maybe, for the people we would consider enemies, for their own good, if we would ask that question, what would love require of us, you know, in those moments, you know, um, sometimes, sometimes you're right, it's just trying to be in that central spot, but sometimes it's also wherever side we have to pick, how do we do that?

Yeah, the analogy that I would draw for what I've— I see the middle as being a bridge between two sides of a chasm or a river or whatever, and sometimes you're stretched all the way out on both sides, but you're standing there in the middle giving people an opportunity to, you know, walk back and forth across, you know, toward each other., and yeah, I mean, I don't— I have very strong opinions about a lot of things. I try to never let those get in the way of an opportunity to have a constructive conversation about any issue, you know, but yeah, I mean, and I do get accused sometimes of being, you know, a little bit wishy-washy or whatever, you know, because I'm trying to be in that place, but love our enemies is a It was a great and wonderful message, and I appreciate it very much. Tell me about your family. Where'd you meet your wife?

At my church, actually.

In Springfield, Ohio?

Yeah, in Springfield, Ohio. Yeah, and this is going to be— yeah, this month actually is going to be another anniversary for us. So, so that's an exciting thing. And we have one son named Alex. He's 10, and we just boy, we love that kid to death. And, and then we have, um, we have— he will tell you sometimes he has 4 brothers and sisters in heaven, um, that didn't—

4?

Yeah, yeah, we had a lot of losses.

Is that, uh, well, let's, let's talk about that a little bit because you— there's another beautiful song, um, there was it based on a psalm or Is it just—

I know the subtitle is "The Babies We Lost." Yeah, the chorus is based on the 23rd Psalm, just "The Lord is our shepherd, walking through us through the valley of the shadow of death." But yeah, the song— we have had the misfortune that a lot of people have had of losing babies before they were born, you know, and that's a very painful loss, and sometimes it's a loss that gets forgotten because people never met the baby, you know, we're the only ones that— especially if you have a spouse that has carried a child and then lost it, it is a significant loss to the mother especially because I can't even— those of us who are fathers probably can't even relate to that depth of loss of having a living being inside of you and having to very heartbreakingly say goodbye when you didn't want to, you know. So we've gone through that 4 times, and my wife has 4 different rings on her fingers with the names of those children, and then one with our son who is here with us, all their names and the dates, you know, when we lost them. And I was just trying to find a way to kind of work through some of my grief that I was going through and that my wife was going went through. And I just wrote this song that really is a letter to the babies that we lost. What would I say to them? And what do I want to say to them as they are with God right now? And so the verses are telling them about, you know—

Well, I'll tell you what.

Yeah.

I'll tell you what I'd like to do. Let's play a couple of minutes of that song, and then we'll come back and talk about If the Lord is our shepherd, he's walking with us through the valley of the shadow of death.

And though the long dark night is swallowing us, he will not give up what is his. He restores our soul. We never met you, but we love you. We never met you, but we love you. Rest in the arms of him who loves you. Lean on the everlasting arms. We never met you, but we love you. We never met you, but we love you. Rest in the arms of him who loves you. Lean on the everlasting arms. If the Lord is our shepherd, And he is walking with us through the valley of the shadow of death. And though the long dark night is swallowing us, he will not give up what is his. He restores our soul. He restores our soul.

Wow, it's a beautiful song and, uh, a challenging word, you know, because sometimes words just fail, you know. I think that's one of the beauties of music. You can sing things that are hard to say, and you put it with a beautiful melody like you did on that piano. By the way, it's a beautifully shot video.

Thank you.

So, I mean, I know it's hard to put an overlay on those kinds of experiences, like where you would have something that— let's say somebody's listening right now, and either they personally have experienced this type of loss, or, you know, someone close to them, or, you know, a grandparent whose adult children have lost a child like this. Yeah, but what do you say to somebody who's experienced this kind of loss You know, you carry a child. I mean, it's one thing to miscarry during the term, but, you know, for people whose babies are born, you know, stillborn or they die shortly after. I mean, I just— yeah, I'm a wreck thinking about it. How did you walk through that? And how have you helped? Have you been able to help some other people who've experienced similar loss?

I sure hope I have. I can still remember that being The one occasion in particular when we were in the hospital and you get that news that, sorry, the heartbeat's just not there anymore, and it's the worst. It's just the, the, it's the most terrible thing. There are no words. And I can remember just holding my wife and just praying the 23rd Psalm, not knowing what else to do at that point. Little did I know that a few years later where I am now. The Lord has, over this last couple years, called me into hospital chaplaincy work. So I'm currently, until August of this year, I'm finishing my year of residency at a hospital. And so I'm— things are very busy right now with that, but I've been doing clinical pastoral education, CPE. Now one thing that I've had the chance to do, and I didn't know I would have the chance to do this, is we a couple times a year, um, at a cemetery nearby the hospital, we actually have a service for parents who lost babies. And sometimes they're stillborn, sometimes there's cases like ours, but we do a service, um, at the cemetery in a specific spot where their children are, and they have little headstones for each one. And I've had the opportunity to sing that song with my guitar at those services outside. And last time we did it, it was super cold and windy and it was going to snow, but it was significant for those parents and those families to be able to come and gather around and just for us to be able to say to them, these lives really mattered, and they don't just matter to you, they matter to us. And as I sing this song with my own questions, And talking about my experience going through this, um, the way that has helped me is just to be reminded, um, that they are resting in arms that are greater than mine. And, uh, and I hope I'll have the chance— whatever, whatever the other side of eternity looks like, I trust that they are well taken care of, and I trust that one day I will see them.

Yeah.

And I don't know if that means I'll get to hold them one day. I don't know what the— I just, we don't know. We haven't been there, so I don't know what the other side of eternity looks like. But whatever form that takes, however God allows that to happen, I trust that just as my grandparents gone before, just as people we love have gone before, that we are all in those everlasting arms. We are right now on this side of eternity. We just don't always realize it. Yeah, but we are held. And so, um, I have had had several opportunities to be with families who are going through that loss, and sometimes just being there, because there really are no words. But I think God's answer to suffering is not an answer like, "This is why." I think God's answer to suffering is, "I'm here." That's awesome.

Yeah, that's amazing. Grief is a huge part of life. I mean, it It finds us all at some point, but so does joy.

Yeah.

What are, what are some of the things that are giving you great joy right now aside from celebrating Fred Rogers' 95th birthday?

You know, that's pretty joyful.

That is pretty cool.

I do like that. Yeah, I've, you know, my family gives me a lot of joy. I really am enjoying hospital chaplaincy right now. I never thought that was in the cards for me. I didn't even know what it was. But I have— I feel like I've become a different person through the training I'm receiving, through being in rooms with people every day, and I'm getting a lot of joy in looking at ministry in a different way than I ever did all these years. I used to think of witnessing as being a person who proclaimed, "Let me tell you about Jesus!" But what I have discovered, and I think there's an ambiguity an ambiguousness even in the scripture when it says go and be witnesses. I think we can also read that as not just go tell somebody. It can also be read as go listen to someone. Yeah, witness them. And so much of what I'm doing in hospital chaplaincy work is I am a ministry of presence where I witness them and I, and I hear their lives, um, because Matthew 25, whatever you've done to the least of these, you've done to me. So I am learning to discover that behind every eye, behind your eyes as I'm sitting here, the eyes of Jesus. And every hospital room encounter I walk into, I've had to shift my paradigm from where I hope they see Jesus in me to how am I going to meet with Jesus today in that person. It might be that Jesus is cussing me out and throwing stuff at me when I walk in the room, you know, but there is something underneath that, that person that's made in the image of God. There's, there's something to that anxiety that's, that's underneath there, and we will see as we minister to those people that Jesus is there in those situations. And so I'm honestly— that's, that's taking up so much of my life right now, doing that work, even getting the time off to come down here this week, because if anybody's been in a residency program, it's a, it's a pretty solid year of, you know, just doing that. But that's given me a lot of joy, and I am currently writing songs about my encounters that I hope is going to turn into an album.

Cool.

I released a song, uh, last— this past summer called As I Walk These Halls, which was about hospital chaplaincy work. And so I'm hoping that there'll be a full album by the time I'm done, uh, that I want to call As I Walk These Halls, that'll tell some of these stories of encounters of where I've met Jesus in the hospital, you know.

So what's, uh What's the funniest thing that's happened to you so far?

Oh my goodness.

As a chaplain, I mean, obviously in hospitals there's a lot of sadness and grief that happens, but I know there's some funny stuff too from time to time.

This is what struck me funny. This was— I heard it secondhand, so I think I'm safe to tell it. I don't know all the HIPAA laws. I want to be careful what I tell.

Sure.

But we had a patient in one of our hospitals that didn't think he was going to get through the surgery, that he was going to die. And when he survived it, he woke up very upset and he started yelling at the doctors and the nurses and everybody. And, and it was just— I was one of those situations like, that's interesting, he's mad that he lived through this, you know. So, uh, human emotions are, are very interesting, especially especially when you're coming out of anesthesia. So there's been situations like that. I don't know how funny this is, but nothing can quite prepare you for the amount of, uh, unclothed people you're going to walk in on from time to time, which is not always very funny. You're kind of like, am I in the right room? But you know, there are funny humorous situations that happen.

Show you the scar.

Yeah, exactly. Like, like, yeah, you'd never That's okay, you don't have to show me, but you know, people feel very free.

You ever seen anything like that?

Not since the last time. Yeah, yeah, that's great.

Yeah, that's great, Rick. Um, with your music, with your chaplaincy work, with just your, your daily living, what's— what really is the motivator now? What's What do you, for people who've never met you before, what would you want people to know? You know, obviously it just flows out of you to talk about your faith and your relationship with the Lord, but what are some, what's one or two other things that you'd really like for people to know that's at the heart of what you, you could, if there's, if you just wave a wand and some things could happen, that— what are, what are, what are some things like that that drive you each day?

Well, that's a really good question. Um, I think I'm finding that, um, not delaying and doing what it is you're being led to do is very important.

Okay.

Like, there is some, there is some wisdom in waiting sometimes if there's like, you know, something controversial that's happening But I think on the other hand, it's actually a good thing not to put off things too long.

Yeah.

Because I'm discovering there are things that need tending to in my own life. And one thing that I've learned as a chaplain, which I think will apply to everything I'm doing now, is we have to be present to self first, and then we can be present to the Presence, and then we can be present to others, and then we can help others be present to the Presence. But if we can't learn to be present to ourselves and the things that we're going through in, in our time, and, and learning to, to get to that— why am I experiencing these sensations and thoughts and urges and feelings in me? What is this disruption that's going on? It's much better to, to look into it and deal with it than it is to put it off and keep burying it and burying it and making things worse. So if, if I had you know, any advice, like magic wand, it would probably be what I am learning is stop putting it off. Do as much as you can. Do the hard thing you've got to do when you need to do it.

Yeah.

Um, and, and I'm discovering that for me, um, that has opened up whole new things in life. I used to suffer from migraines a lot. I would get them, you know, 4 or 5 times a week, and they're What I didn't realize is there was some traumas I was holding on to. And whenever, through this chaplaincy process, I started learning about those things that I was holding on to that I didn't even know was there. And I rarely have a migraine anymore. It's amazing the way—

like, fantastic.

And I attribute it to partially doing the hard thing and, you know, taking those steps. And I hope that was a decent answer to your question.

No, it's great. I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful. It's been great having you, man, and I'm glad we were able to share some of your music with people. Tell people how to get in touch with you, you know, just look over in the camera and, you know, tell them. I want people to be able to be aware of these different things that you're putting out there. Do you have your own website?

I do, yeah, rickleejames.com is the best way probably to find all information about me. I already mentioned the Mr. Rogers Twitter. If you use Twitter, it's just @MrRogersSay, S-A-Y. And then, but yeah, I just say rickleejames.com. I used to have rickjames.com, but because of the other Rick James, I had to put my middle name in there because there was too much confusion online. You're not Rick James, you know. But yeah, so rickleejames.com. And also, thank you for having me today. This was so nice to be able to have this conversation. I love it.

And I, I I think we talked about it, you're, you know, probably be able to share this on your, on your podcast as well. So maybe it'll, maybe we'll have an opportunity to introduce each other to, you know, people we haven't met yet, you know, so to speak. Yeah, I love that. I, I don't think there's a way to get too much good out there into the world. There's enough, there's enough, and people who've listened to podcast, it probably, you know, can predict about half of what I'm going to say toward the end. But it's, it's important to me to encourage people in all walks of life to just get out there in the middle of doing something good for somebody else. It, it makes a difference for the world, but it makes a difference for us too in the process. There is a very real sense in which the good that we do on behalf of another person does come back, you know, home to roost. I really do believe that, and it's a healthier way to live. It's a happier way to live, and it's a more healing way to live too. And you're doing that, man. Congratulations. Great to have you, bro.

Thank you. Good to be with you today. Thank you so much.

That's episode 31, and it's been It's been great to have you here. We'll see you, see you down the road.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head.

Music on the intro and outro of this show is from my single As I Walk These Halls, which can be streamed on any streaming platform, including Spotify. I hope you'll visit me on my website at RickLeeJames.com where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, schedule me for a concert, a speaking engagement, a podcast, or even a book signing in your neighborhood. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. The more positive reviews we receive, the more visible this podcast will be. And now the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.