William Willimon: The Gospel For The Person Who Has Everything - Episode 397

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Welcome to Voices in My Head, the official podcast of me, Rick Lee James.

I'm a recording artist, a singer, a songwriter, an author, a worship leader, and an ordained minister in the Church of the Nazarene. The Voices in My Head podcast is where I discuss music, movies, books, pop culture, theology, and more with friends, colleagues, and sometimes just by myself. Make sure to let me know what you think of today's episode by leaving me a review on iTunes or by tweeting at me @RickLeeJames on Twitter. And please join my mailing list at RickLeeJames.com where you can receive an email every time a new episode is released. By the way, in case you're interested in a daily dose of kindness and encouragement beyond this podcast, I also run the Twitter account @MrRogersSay where I post daily quotes from Fred Rogers, one of the voices in my head. Well, I guess that's it for the intro, so sit back, relax, and listen to the latest episode of Voices in My Head.

Welcome back to Voices in My Head. As always, I'm your host Rick Lee James, and I'm so glad that you're here with us for another great conversation this week. In his book, The Gospel for the Person Who Has Everything, Bishop William Willimon brings the gospel of Jesus Christ to life for the person who has everything—happy, fulfilled human beings who don't feel the same level of need expressed by the downcast, the outcast, the brokenhearted, and the miserable. Willimon says that the church's message to the wretched and sad must not exclude the strong, and the joyous. Paraclete Press has just released a brand new edition of the book, The Gospel for the Person Who Has Everything, and Bishop Willemann has stopped by for a visit this evening so that we can talk about it. Dr. William Willemann, welcome back to Voices in My Head.

Oh, thank you, Rick Lee James. Great to be back among you.

Well, I am so glad to have an opportunity to get to talk to you again. I was trying to remember. I think this is, I think, the fourth time that we've been able to chat over this podcast, and, uh, and it's always great. Yeah, it's always been a great conversation, and I've loved getting to know you more over the, the last couple of years when we've gotten to do this. I was excited to find out that Paraclete Press had re-released, uh, The Gospel for the Person Who Has Everything, and I think it's really a needed actually a needed concept of the book right now, uh, because it helps us rethink, um, maybe repentance in a, in a way that we aren't used to thinking about, and what it means to actually become a Christian in many ways. And, and especially in the confusing times that we are living in right now, where Christianity seems so politicized on one end of things, and we just get such a distorted picture of The Gospel. So I'm really glad to have this, uh, in, in my hands to be able to talk about tonight. It's, it's a good book to revisit. And as I was telling you before the show, I, I, I only have at this point, um, the original copy from, from years back, uh, but I'm excited about the new, uh, book. And, and even the new cover is really great on the book. I love the artwork and the style, uh, that they did. It really fits well. Well, let's just, uh, let's dive right into it. I've got a few questions for you tonight, and we'll just see where our conversation takes us. But in the book, you start right off writing about giving a testimony, something that many of us who grew up in church understand very well, and how we are encouraged to fit our testimony into a format of I was miserable Then I Found Jesus. And if you were giving a testimonial about your own experience of the Christian faith, I have to ask you, would it fit into the mold of "I was miserable and then I found Jesus," or how would you describe your testimony in light of that?

Um, you know, I, uh, the book arose out of my experiences as a young pastor, really my first church. And, uh, I realized that I had sort of grown up with the presentation of the gospel such as, uh, you got a need and your need is this, and, uh, Christ is the fulfillment of your need. He is the answer to your problem. And, um, come to Jesus. And get that fixed. And, uh, I— one, I realized that that didn't quite fit my own faith journey in that I don't remember growing up with a great sense of need. I grew up in a single-parent home, and there were certainly problems, challenges, issues, but I remember more than some kind of my searching for God or my struggling with some need that I needed help with. I remembered my own faith journey as a sense of a growing awareness of God having turned to me, a sense that I was someone who had been given certain blessings and privileges, And, uh, I think a sense of being called, a sense that God had some meaning for me, some purpose for my life beyond my own creation of that purpose, and being swept up into God's project more than God being sort of fulfillment of my project. And so I think that sort of informed my preaching during those first years of ministry and informed the thesis of this book. Wow.

Well, thank you for touching on that. I appreciate it because I think too often we do want to fit almost everyone into the same box when it comes to telling their faith story. Yeah. And in part of the book, You actually use a really— well, you use actually what Reinhold Niebuhr called in one of the chapters. You call it— he called it the fallacy of moralistic preaching. And there's sort of this summary that you talk about in the book that you say if you could sum up about 90% of the sermons in which you hear, and a lot of which you've preached, you say too, the summary goes something like this: you have a problem, Christ is the answer. Repent and be saved. And, uh, and that's— it's in that chapter that you refer to Reinhold Niebuhr and, and what he calls the fallacy of moralistic preaching. I wonder if you could unpack for us a bit sort of what, what that fallacy is of maybe that kind of moralistic preaching, or, or when that becomes kind of a steady diet of just that kind of preaching.

I think I would define moralistic preaching as the presentation of the Gospel as a kind of human assignment. Uh, what is the Gospel? The Gospel is something about you. Uh, you need to believe this, feel this, uh, act in this way, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ basically reduced to human thinking, feeling, or action. And, uh, there's a number of problems with that. One is that I think the gospel is best seen as an announcement of what— of who God is. God is Jesus Christ. And that— and what is God up to? God is busy turning toward us. God is busy drawing us into God's projects, and moralism and moralistic preaching is sort of embarrassingly anthropocentric rather than theocentric, to put it in a kind of theological way. That is, it's about us and what we're supposed to do or produce in order to connect with God in the right way. I think the gospel is a story about how God has connected with us in a powerful way, and that it's a story not about what we ought to do, should do, could do, but a story of what God has done in Jesus Christ. And so, you know, I'm a Methodist, and I wonder if my moralism is a particular kind of Methodist malady. Uh, that is, uh, who's a Christian? A Christian is somebody who believes something, who does something, who has felt something in their hearts. Uh, no, I think a Christian is somebody who has simply said yes to the prior initiatory yes that God has said to us in Jesus Christ.

Hmm, yeah, that is a powerful thought. And I get the feeling that when I read about the way that you write about, about kind of the flaw of moralistic preaching, it's almost like, like you just said, and I'm kind of reiterating it, but it's starting at the wrong place because the good news is not about how messed up I am. The good news is about this amazing God who initiates coming to us. And really, the story starts with love, I think, is sort of like to flip it all. Would you say that that's kind of—

Yeah, with God's love. I mean, to quote a verse, we love. Why? Because God first loved us. And in the divine-human relationship, It's always— it's God's initiative. It's— and it's, uh, again, the gospel is an announcement. Hey, uh, God is not who you maybe presume God to be. Uh, for instance, God is not the one who says, hey, I'm setting the bar, I'm giving them Ten Commandments, I'm giving them whatever, and okay, humanity, chin up to that bar. Or it's not Jesus coming and saying, uh, now here's who I am, now I really need you to believe in me, I need you to believe the following fundamentals about me. No, it's first of all a story that God has, uh, turned to us. It's a story that I think has its kind of beginning in Deuteronomy. God says, I will be your God and you will be mine. You will be my people. Well, that's, that's the gospel. And, um, then our, our human response is always only that response. And, uh, I think that's really good news because it means that my relationship to God is not dependent on me, I don't always feel like a Christian, I don't always think like a Christian, I don't always act like a Christian, but the good news is God has thought about me, and that, as you say, that love, any of our human love is always responsive love to that prior love, and Sadly, I think that gets obscured. It— you know, we preachers stand up and we say, "Hey church, you ought to do this. Hey people, Jesus wants you to act like this." Or— yeah, well, the trouble is, and I kind of work this theme in the book, you know, it's the ethics of gratitude. It's It's the ethics similar to, you know, the parent— I think I have this illustration in the book about, you know, there are two ways for parents to influence their children. One is to say, look, here are the rules, here's my standards, you need to meet up to them, and if you do, I will be your loving parent. Another way is to simply say, let's get this straight, I am your loving parent, I will always love you No matter what you do or don't do or which paths you take, I will be yours and you will be mine. And that means that then the child responds often, you know, by saying, wow, I want to be my best, and my best is to be who I am created to be, and I'm loved. And that's responsive. And, uh, so it is, uh, I know, you know, the book is over 40 years old, and I wrote it during my first days of ministry. And, um, I think I saw it as a kind of an evangelistic exercise. I think I saw it as attempt to articulate the good news in a fresh, lively way. And I wondered, looking at it now, when Paraclete Press approached me, I wondered, wow, I wonder, is this still relevant? Or— and all— and looking back through the book, there, there are moments the book is dated where I talk about Oral Roberts, or I talk about some contemporary, uh, thing going on. However, I was, I was almost embarrassed by its continuing relevance. Yeah, I, I, I, I kind of argue the gospel, Jesus Christ's main mission, is not about meeting human need. It's, it's His main mission is an invitation: Follow me, join up with my movement, my kingdom, become a citizen of my kingdom. Well, there's a sense in which the presentation of the Gospel is kind of a solution to human problems. Mm-hmm. That maybe is more of a way of presenting the Gospel today than it was when I originally wrote the book. Uh, that is, uh, the problems have changed. Uh, you know, I mean, uh, I remember growing up, you know, the thing was, hey, you're a sinner now, you need your sins forgiven. And, uh, well, preachers don't— not many preachers talk like that anymore. More often preachers say, "Are you anxious? Are you feeling lonely? Are you feeling hopeless? Well, good, so good. Now come to Jesus and he fixes that. That's why he's here, is to fix that problem in you." Well, there's a sense in which that has become about 90% of the preaching that I hear. Problems identified are different, but, uh, and the solutions— but the solution is in one way or another sort of, this is why Jesus came to be, this is why, this is his main mission, is you and your problems. If I had to characterize the book, I would think it's not only a kind of exercise in evangelism, but it's also an exercise in evangelism as vocation. Theologically speaking, looking back, I suppose I was concerned that we had detached salvation from vocation, that we had detached— many of us preachers, we had detached being saved, uh, being brought into God's righteousness and God's kingdom. We detach that from the call of God. And as I note in the book, you know, Jesus came saying to people, not, uh, where does it hurt, uh, where are your difficulties that you're facing in life? Okay, good. Well, that's, that's, that's what I'm here to fix. No, Jesus came preaching, follow me. Yeah. And he— whatever he wanted to do, he said that he chose not to do what he wanted to do without us, without our help, without our discipleship. So I think it's a book about vocation, about what it's like to have your life swept up into the purposes of God.

Yeah, and, and you know, as you were talking just now, and, and I'm hearing it all again, this isn't necessarily something you touched on in the book, but, but it really is too, because the way that we so often have preached the gospel, it's easy for me to see why now I'm especially seeing, um, like politics in America have become— has become the religion of so many people. Because in many ways it sounds like the same sermons that people have been hearing. Like, here's a need you have, you know, like, you, you need this. That's a good point. And I, and I'm gonna give you that, so you got to vote for me. And you even hear it in, you know, like, like Trump when he's out on, on, only I can fix it, you know. It's almost this whole, like, evangelistic tour type thing, you know.

You know, they're There was a day when evangelistic so-called preachers, I mean, we would say, hey, things are really in a mess in your life, things are dark, things are terrible. Hey, come to church, come be a Christian, come to Jesus, you can get that fixed. It is interesting how that kind of language has kind of morphed into politics where you say, oh, America's in a terrible mess. I know in Trump's inauguration speech it was so dark. Yeah, it was apocalyptic. America was— we're living in the last days. It's just terrible. I'm going to do what I can to fix it, but Obama's messed it up so bad, I don't know what I can do. And it— your point, it is fascinating how we have transferred that I'd say— I didn't articulate it this way in the book, but I have come to articulate it— that I'm afraid American Christians can't tell the difference anymore between being a Christian and an American. There is no difference. And so we're just so worried about the country. We— the only way to get any good done is, is through politicians and electing the right politicians and all. Without any sense that, uh, to be a Christian is to have two passports in your pocket. To be a Christian is to have claims made upon you that the government can never make. It's also to believe that God's solution to what ails us is always deeper and more unimaginable than, than simply the government, uh, or secular politics. And thus the book kind of ends with, uh, church. Yeah. And talking about how the church is not just, you know, a nice, uh, helpful way to get other opinions and to, to get some supportive friends and all. Uh, church is, is sort of instrumental in, in your salvation. Yeah, in the church, to be cast in the church is the way Jesus, uh, redeems us, uh, by giving us a, a different family than the one that we were born into.

And, and again, Church, I, I think you said something a few minutes ago, um, along the lines of the dangers of detaching our salvation from vocation. Something like that is what you had said. And I think, again, it's the church that helps us to understand what that vocation is too, what it means that we actually have a place in this kingdom, that we have a part to play. It's not our story that we're telling, it's God's story, and he has graced us to be a part of this story. And I think that's fascinating too, just kind of relating it to this idea of the political language that has become religious language. And it's almost become like the church in so many ways, and its failings has, because we almost think, well, if we just elect this guy, well, that's all I got to do, you know, they'll fix it, it'll all be done. Uh, and so often we talk about Jesus that way.

I like what you say about that The church has a responsibility, has the gift of being able to identify people as disciples. I've got a former student, he's an African-American pastor out in eastern North Carolina, and he— I saw a sermon of his online, and he said to his congregation, you know, a month or so ago you were just bagging groceries at the grocery store. You were just emptying bedpans at the nursing home. Well, that virus has made you into an heroic disciple. And, uh, if, uh, you, you now are out, you're God's representative out on the front lines in, in this pandemic. And it says, and by the way, if anybody thanks you for what you're doing, said they probably won't. But he said, if anybody asks you, why are you going the second mile? Why are you doing this? Uh, that's your invitation. You tell them, I'm here because Jesus put me here. I'm here as a disciple of Jesus Christ. I thought it was wonderful. In fact, I, I guess looking back on my own pastoral ministry, the one gift I've— that I've and most proud of some of the things God did through this, but I wish I had more of it. And that was the gift as a pastor of being able to look at one of my church members and in a sense call them to ministry, call them to discipleship, to look at somebody and say, you know, George, you are so hard to get along with sometimes. You're a difficult board member, but because you are just so impatient. You're always wanting to see things happen now. Uh, well, uh, I'm putting you in charge of the church's food pantry, uh, and I want you to bring that impatience. I want you to make it a holy impatience. I want you to make this the best food pantry in town, okay? And, uh, though I've had those moments in my own ministry, they should have been more And I think, uh, one of the things people should expect of their pastor, of their church, is, uh, to, to say, uh, to say, wow, I believe the Lord is recruiting you for his work. Uh, you know, so often we come to church, we have our prayer list. Lord, here's your assignment. For the week. Lord, I want you to work on this and then fix this and heal that. I think as I read the Gospels, it's much more of the Lord saying, okay, here's what I'm— here's what I'm up to, here's what I'm engaged in. Now guess who's going to help me bring this about? Guess who I'm assigning a role to, to help make this happen? And I think that's what church ought to be, is where we gather on a weekly basis to get our marching orders and to be strengthened for the jobs Jesus has given us. I remember this woman told me that she had organized an after-school tutoring program, and at the local school, And she recruited volunteers from a number of the churches nearby the school and all. But she said, I didn't get a lot of cooperation from the principal of the school, and sometimes the kids would be difficult, and the volunteers didn't always come through. And said, I just came out one Sunday and I told my pastor, I said, I've just prayed. I just think I'm going to have to give this up. It's just too stressful. It's just— I just don't think I can, uh, bear this burden anymore. And she said, my pastor said, don't come whining to me about stuff that Jesus asked you to do. Take it up with the Lord. And said, you may not be as weak as you think you are. And he said, you think I enjoy being a minister, all a pastor, all the time? He said, "Take it up with the Lord." I sort of love that, you know, and, and saying, uh, by the way, you, you're doing what you're doing in the kingdom not because it necessarily brings you joy or satisfaction or fulfillment. You're doing it because it's a job that Jesus assigns you for reasons known only to Jesus.

Wow, that's a great, great story, you know, and I wonder sometimes, and I've seen it more clearly, I think, during this time of pandemic than maybe I've ever seen it in my life. I'm worried, and I don't know how far down this rabbit trail we'll want to go, but as I've been thinking about this idea, you've been talking again about what it means to be discipled, and what it means to be discipled into the church. I fear that we have done such a poor job in the church in America of discipling people, um, because I see so clearly how undisciple-like the church's people have been when it comes to something just as simple as like wearing a mask for the sake of another person, you know, and, and what it would mean I heard somebody say at a conference one time that I was at with some other pastors a few years ago, and I was helping to lead some music at this conference, and one of the speakers said, if a person comes to your church for 20 years, how different do they look because they've been a part of your congregation and because they worship with you? And, you know, I've been really worried as of late because I see all the time people who claim to be followers of Jesus who, who won't do the slightest thing to help another person because you're infringing on my rights. And, and I always think that that sounds like such a non-gospel thing, that we're so ingrained in the idea of my rights and my wants that we don't even care about those needs and And I just think this idea that you keep coming back to again, the idea that Jesus has called us to something so much greater. And I wonder if our preaching has just been too paltry. Um, you know, we focus so much on the things that you've talked about in this book of, of just, here's a need, almost like American consumerism. You've got a need, we've got the way to fix it, you know.

And instead, ah, it is It is American consumerism run wild. Yeah. And it, it, it— I can, I can understand how we preachers have fallen into that, but I think it is— we got to fight it. And, and mainly because it is just not fair to the presentation of Jesus Christ that we get in the New Testament. Yeah. Uh, or to the church's historic witness, uh, to Christ. And that is, uh, I mean, for instance, one of the problems we have is that if you ask me, uh, what are your needs? Uh, well, America, you know, is a, a place where we— our government is by rights and I have my rights. I'm born with those rights, and being an American means to exercise the maximum number of rights. Well, the trouble is we live in a polity where my rights are basic— are often my desires that have gotten elevated in me to rights, right? And my desires, uh, I— we are showing are just a bottomless pit. And having fulfilled all the biblical needs like bread, clothing, housing, we've done all that with our checkbook. We don't need to ask God, most of us don't, to do that. So we've moved on to have other needs like meaning in life or purpose in life, a reason to get out of bed in the morning, a sense of inner peace, and blah blah blah. And, and, um, and we've been all too quick to say, uh, oh, oh, oh, good, that's your biggest need? Well, good, uh, here's some Bible verses, or here's how Jesus can can fulfill that need. Whereas I think many Christians could testify, uh, one, Jesus Christ doesn't solve your needs. He gives you needs you would have never had had that— you hadn't met Jesus. Exactly. Uh, then another thing is that many times, uh, there are things in my life that I think I just must have, in order to be fulfilled in life that Jesus appears to have no interest in providing me. And maybe he wants to give me a different life and different needs. And so my need, rather than to have a sense of peace in my life, maybe he exchanges that for a need to, to make a difference in the world. To connect with other people in ways that make a difference for them. I was amazed during— after the Breonna Taylor killing and Armond Aubrey and etc., etc., George, etc., George Floyd. I have heard Christians say that You know, they just felt so, uh, bereft and, and so frustrated, so ashamed. And they went to church, or for most of us in the last few months, logged into church and seeking some word, uh, some something of hope, something they could do that might help them respond to these tragedies, these, this evil, and nothing, nothing was mentioned at church. And, and I think that those Christians yearning, I believe that was Holy Spirit induced. And woe be unto the church that, that is unable to say, uh, you're feeling upset, you're feeling in despair, uh, you're what— you want to do something? Well, you come to the right place, and here's what we're going to do, and you get to be part of it. And, um, so I hope this book is about some of that.

Yeah. Oh, definitely. Well, you know, there's so much good to talk about in this little book, but I think what I want to jump to tonight so we don't spend the whole evening talking and run out of time here, one thing that I know you're passionate about talking about and you write about it some in the book is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And I wonder if you could talk to us a little bit about some of the ways that you think the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, how he can speak to us today.

Well, in the book, I'm indebted to my own kind of encounter with Bonhoeffer, some of Bonhoeffer's writing. Bonhoeffer, you know, was a brilliant intellect and he ranged widely in his writing, but he made some comments about what does Christianity do with what he called the strong man, that is, the contented, fulfilled, reasonably happy individual who has been blessed by life. What do we do with that person? And Bonhoeffer said, I'm disturbed by the way we often try to tear that person down, saying, hey, you're not as happy as you think you are, or sure, you, you, you're— a lot of things are going well for you in your life, but, but you're— this isn't going well and you need help in this area. But, uh, what does— does Christ have any word for the strong? And, and from that Bonhoeffer himself grew up in a very patrician, privileged German family. He had the best education Germany had to offer, and in the 1930s he got a job as a theologian at Union Seminary, and he could have gladly safely stayed at Union throughout the war, but as war clouds gathered, and the situation in Germany became more apparent how, where it was going, and as Bonhoeffer's church, the German church, fell into the arms of Adolf Hitler, Bonhoeffer made a decision to go back to Germany, feeling that God was leading him back there, feeling like to return to the crucible, to return to the fire, It's exactly the kind of thing one would expect of a crucified Savior. And so he returned to Germany and, uh, started a renegade seminary, uh, continued to write, eventually, uh, participated in a plot against Hitler. He was, uh, then, uh, became a martyr. He was hung just a few days before the end of the war. And to me that model spoke that, hey, it's about discipleship. In fact, maybe his greatest book was The Cost of Discipleship, in which he talked about the peril of cheap grace, grace that is undemanding. I know after reading that book, I've I don't usually use the word, the phrase unconditional grace. Uh, I know what they're talking about, you know. It's just that I think Christ's grace, like love itself, comes to us with all kinds of demands and, uh, and, and requires our transformation in order to be loved by this God and in order to return that love. So anyway, Bonhoeffer to me was a model of that.

Yeah. Oh, that's so good. And when you just talked about the love that has all these demands, and you had talked a while ago about a parent too, and a parent that starts with, "Look, I love you." But we also know that a parent who loves us says, "And I do have these expectations of you." You know, yeah, I want you this way.

And, uh, and that's, uh, most of us, uh, the worst judgment we ever receive, uh, in life, uh, the most severe correction we have received is from our parents. And I, I remember a preacher saying, uh, you know, parental love is, is demanding love. He said, I, I know grown men who to this day will not smoke in front of their mothers. And you know, that, I think that is close to the kind of love I'm thinking, like in the Exodus when God says, "I have created you out of nothing. I have brought you out of slavery. I have stuck with you and loved you. I have brought I'm going to bring you to this land flowing with milk and honey. Now, here's what I expect of my people, and the world is going to see what, what, what a great people you are by loving me. And that, again, evangelism— the word evangelism, you know, as you know, means good news. The sad thing is I think too often we preachers have transformed God's good news into human bad news. Yeah. About, uh, here's one more burden you gotta assume, uh, you know, uh, I, uh, was at a workshop a while back on spirituality and, uh, the speaker was talking about spiritual discipline. And, uh, you, you need to get up, uh, set aside time alone in the morning and, uh, before your children get up and all, before you get involved in that. And then, uh, and always start— always advise Bible study and significant portions of Bible study. And then, uh, each evening, you know, before, uh, sleep, you, you go through these prayers and, and these Bible readings and all. And then during the day set aside at least 2 or 3 times a day where you stop and you pray. And when the speaker was finished, one of the members of the group said, uh, you know, while you're doing all that, just, just remember to be in love. You know, just, just remember that, by the way, this is about not about all the stuff you gotta do, but it's about the incredible lengths God and Jesus Christ has gone, uh, to get you. And if to lose sight of that is, uh, it is a sad perversion of the gospel. So, uh, uh, and, well, I do Uh, I wonder what being a Methodist— a Methodist coming out of John Wesley— John Wesley felt like there were just some things about spiritual life that were just too important to be left to chance, to when you feel like it. So there was a method, and you need to follow that method. However, sometimes Methodists have forgotten that, you know, it all begins with this heartwarming experience on Aldersgate Street when Wesley realized, wow, God has died for my sins. Yeah, uh, even mine. And this sense of grace just flooding into his life, and, uh, it's hard.

That's something.

Yes. And, uh, Well, uh, thank you for talking about the book.

Oh man, my goodness, it's such an honor.

Rick, I'm, I'm really moved too that you got the first edition. And, uh, it is amazing. It's gratifying at this point in my life to something that I worked on that long ago, uh, still maybe can be helpful. To the church. And, but maybe it means that, you know, struggling with the wonder of the gospel and struggling with the wonder of that God has called us of all people to be God's agents in the world, that that has to be continually refurbished. In every church and in every Christian's life. Hmm.

Well, you know, I do think that there's still a lot of relevance in this book, and I'm glad to have rediscovered it because until y'all reached out to me a few days ago and asked if we wanted to discuss it, I had had it on my shelf but I hadn't revisited it in some time. And as I was looking through it again, I thought, yeah, this is— there's a lot I need to dig back into in this book. And I wonder if maybe we could close tonight by having you read a section of the book that we talked about a little bit before we started recording. Okay, I'd love to let our listeners just hear a piece of this. There's a great parable that, that you write in the chapter Standing on Our Own Two Feet. And we've talked a bit tonight about being parents and comparing the, the being a parent to who God is and the love of God. And this is actually a very interesting parable to me because it has to do with a young lion who gets separated from his parents. But it really does clearly shine sort of this— it's a great gospel story. And I wonder if in closing tonight you would mind reading that parable.

Okay, our listeners Yeah, it's a parable, uh, and I think it has something to do with sort of, uh, converting, repenting, coming into the faith, which I talk about as a kind of waking up. But here it is. Once there was a little lion who lived in the jungle. He was born into a noble family of lions, king of beasts. But when this little lion was still a baby, something happened one night which caused him to get separated from his parents, from his family. I don't know what caused the separation, maybe an earthquake, a blinding storm. At any rate, the little lion woke up the next morning to find himself all alone. He began to wander through the jungle looking for his family, home, finally. After walking a very long time, he came upon a flock of sheep grazing in the meadow. He came out of the jungle and watched them as they were eating the green grass. This must be my family, the little lion said to himself. I'll go over there and join them. The little lion went over, joined the sheep. Sheep paid him little attention. He was so small, just blended in with them. The little lion watched the sheep as they ate the grass and He tried to copy them. He wanted to be just like them. He didn't like his first few mouthfuls of grass. His neck started to hurt bending over, but by working at it, he got the hang of it. He could eat grass with the other sheep. And he also worked on saying baa like the other sheep. But his baa just never sounded quite right. It bothered him. That his fur didn't seem to grow as long and woolly as the other sheep. But they were all too busy eating grass and following the leader to notice him. And the little lion just kept eating grass and following the leader. And he was starting to feel right at home. Then one day something happened which changed all that. While the flock was out grazing in the meadow, a loud, thundering, earth-shaking roar came out of the jungle. The sheep immediately stopped eating and huddled together in fear. They then stepped out of the jungle a gigantic noble lion. He gave out another roar. The leader of the sheep, uh, started running as fast as his little legs could carry him, and all the other sheep followed. But something told the little lion not to run with the other sheep. Something fascinated him about the majestic-looking figure emerging from the jungle. He was frightened but also drawn toward him. Then the big lion let out another roar, spoke to the lion. What in the world do you think you're doing? Who, me? responded the lion. Yes, you. What are you doing wandering around with those sheep and eating grass, saying baa? You look ridiculous. You sound ridiculous. But I'm supposed to eat the grass and say baa, said the little lion. All the sheep do it. You are not a sheep. Not a sheep? asked the little lion in complete puzzlement. No, just look at yourself. Come over here, look at yourself in this pool of water. The little lion timidly edged over to the pool of water. He stood at its edge and gazed into the water. To his utter amazement, he saw there not a white woolly sheep, but a small lion, about not as big and strong as a big lion, but nevertheless A lion. See, said the big lion, those teeth, those eyes, that fur— those aren't a sheep's. But you're one of us. You're a lion. He was right. The little lion could see that he was right. The little lion realized all this time he'd been trying to be something he wasn't, something he didn't really want to be. From that moment on, The little lion became a real lion. He learned to roar and hunt and tame the jungle with the best of the lions. He learned to stand on his own two feet, not simply to follow the leader of the flock. He discovered who he was and what he was meant to be. Somewhere there's a lesson for each of us. See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God. And so we are. 1 John 3:1.

Fantastic. Well, listeners, you can tell from just hearing that one short section of the book that it's really worth going out and trying to find a copy of this new edition of the book, The Gospel for the Person Who Has Everything, by William Willimon. And the new edition is released by Paraclete Press, and I'm very excited about that for you. I'm glad that they have re-released it. We're going to have links to the book and to Dr. Willemans' site on our website at voicesinmyheadpodcast.com, and you can just easily click there and you'll be able to find all the links that will take you to everywhere that, that William Willemans has his books and other things that he has going along. In his life. So it's been a real honor to get to talk to you again this evening, and I thank you for the opportunity to discuss this book. And as I say to my guests every week, I'm going to say it to you again, Dr. William Willimon, thank you for being one of the Voices in My Head this week.

Ah, thank you, Rick. Great to be with you again.

Thank you for joining me here this week on Voices in My Head. I hope you'll visit me on my website at rickleejames.com, where you can find out more about me, get my music on vinyl and CD, follow my blog, and even schedule me for a concert or a speaking engagement. Better yet, even a book signing in your neighborhood. You can find all that and more at rickleejames.com. Also, it would mean a great deal to me if you could write a review of this podcast on iTunes. The more positive reviews that we receive, the more visible this podcast will be online. And now for the benediction: May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope. God bless you, and thank you for listening to Voices in My Head.