You Are My Friend: The Songs of Fred Rogers - Daniel Knox Talks About His Latest Album

Welcome to The Neighborhood, a Mr. Rogers tribute podcast. I'm your host, Rick Lee James, of rickleejames.com, and I run the Mr. Rogers Quotes Twitter account found @MrRogersSay. As we again walk into this podcast neighborhood, I want you to know that no matter where you are from, you are welcome here. I'm glad to be your neighbor. Every daughter, every son, every tribe, and every tongue, in the spirit of Fred Rogers and the life of welcome that he lived, welcome to the neighborhood. This week is a special bonus episode with Chicago-based singer and songwriter Daniel Knox. Daniel Knox has a commanding baritone voice that can invoke both power and tenderness interchangeably. On his latest album, You Are My Friend: The Songs of Mister Rogers, Knox captures the care and generosity of Fred Rogers' music, honors the original spirit of the music of Mister Rogers while infusing it with the complications of life, adding his own musical ideas. Hearing the childlike, welcoming lyrics of Fred Rogers through the sound of a strong baritone voice makes this album unique and original among the library of Mr. Rogers tribute projects that have released over the years. Knox's blanket of simple piano melodies and distinctive vocals invite the listener into a playful atmosphere where they can grapple with the joys and fears that confront both adults and children alike. You're My Friend is like a Mr. Rogers album for contemplative adults that helps us to laugh, cry and reflect and navigate the joys and the sorrows of adulthood. It's like musical medicine for weary souls who long to see the world again through the eyes of a child. Daniel Knox has stopped by the neighborhood for a visit today, and I'm so glad he has. Daniel Knox, welcome to the neighborhood.

Thanks for having me.

Well, I'm really glad to have you here tonight, and I love the new album, and I can't wait to talk with you more about it and to share some of the music at the end of our episode tonight with listeners. But before we do any of that, I first just want to ask, how are things for you? I know these are strange days and we're still in a mode in our country and really in our world of fighting this pandemic, and we're not— life is just unusual. So first I just want to ask, how you doing?

Well, thanks for asking. I'm, I'm doing okay. You know, I had a big tour planned. I was gonna be playing a lot of shows in in Europe, and that got obviously put off. And, uh, so I've just, I've just been at home, and I've put this, this new record out. And, uh, I think it's kind of— I, I, I'd intended to put it out much later, but I think it's actually a really good time to put it out for a lot of reasons. But I, I've just been at home and, uh, uh, studying and, and playing music and, and trying to, uh kind of keep my head on straight.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry that, that your tour got canceled. I'm not sorry that you had to release the album a little early because it's been, it's been really good medicine, I think, for me and for a lot of other people. Every guest that I've had on this show, they have their own Mr. Rogers story of a way that Fred Rogers influenced them or left a mark on their life in some way. Some of our guests even met him at some point or knew him well. Others others of us just kind of knew him from afar. I'd love to know, what is your Mr. Rogers story?

Well, I think like a lot of people, I grew up watching Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood in the '80s. And I watched it on a great big television back when TVs were sort of more like a piece of furniture. It's a big— more like a dresser with a TV inside of it. And, uh, you know, the thing that I, I liked the most about him was that, uh, he tended to talk about sadness and things that were sort of difficult. And as a boy, uh, I, I guess I felt kind of insulted by a lot of children's music and children's programming, which tended to revolve mostly around silliness and, uh, either silliness or sort of like a moralizing authoritarian, you should do this, you shouldn't do this, you know, good kids do this, bad kids do that. And with him, it was a very, uh, very direct way of speaking about, uh, sadness. And, uh, for whatever reason that, you know, I liked to cry. I enjoyed crying. I don't know, um, I enjoyed the catharsis of it, I guess you could say. And I liked things that made me cry because they kind of made me, uh, think a little bit more. And, um, you know, I— that's not much of a story really. It's just that, uh, that's I think how I tended to relate to him and his, his show.

Sure. Yeah, no, I, and I get that. I think you're right, it is cathartic to be able to get those emotions out, and, and Fred Rogers certainly did that in a way that very few children's hosts, I think, if any, have ever done before. And I've commented on this many times on this podcast over the time that I've been doing it over the last year. It was kind of amazing the way that he had a way in his communication style that even though he was on TV and we were watching him, it felt like he was listening. And that's a really special gift, I think, for him to be able to do that. And you're right, boy, he just didn't shy away from hard things, whether it be death or divorce or even war and things that you wouldn't think would make good topics at all. But yeah, well, thank you for, thank you for sharing just the way that it touched your life. I think a lot of people might be surprised when you say, say that he helped us to embrace sadness in a way, but it really was something he did. And it just shows you that the kind of depth of places that he went throughout the course of his life and his show.

I think that, you know, one of the ways that he was able to do that was by not making sadness or darkness melodramatic. It was a way of kind of normalizing it, saying these are, these are things that happen in life and then they're over, and but it's a part of everybody's life and that it's normal. I think as opposed to it being this like highly dramatic grave sort of, sort of thing. I think that, that kind of is what sets him apart, because there were other, probably, you know, other children's programs and entertainers that, that, that would address those things, but they would tend to do it in a different light as opposed to just accepting it as part of normal life.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a, that's an excellent observation. I wonder, just in sort of the making of this album, how did this all come about in the first place? Because you've done some other wonderful albums, and I hope we'll have time to talk especially about your work doing the music of Twin Peaks a little bit later in the show. But you obviously have a lot of different musical interests. And how was it that you were led first, I guess, to even attempt an album like this?

So, uh, it's interesting. I, you know, I hadn't thought about his music for a long time, and then, um, years ago, I guess maybe 10 years ago, when I was sort of just getting started performing, I was offered a chance to do this concert. And it was like, uh, they mentioned that everybody had to pick an artist and do some of their, their material. And I, um, I thought of him just sort of in passing, and I, I went back and, and listened. I, I bought a bunch of the LPs, um, I think, uh, Come On and Wake Up and A Place of Your Own and a different one I can't remember the name of. And I, I listened to them really closely, and I learned a whole show's worth of songs. And then I did this concert and it went so badly. Um, not because I played badly, I think I actually played pretty well, but like almost nobody was there. And then this guy at the concert handed out whistles to everybody and they blew the whistles while I was playing. Oh no, big disaster. So it was always this kind of this heartbreak for me and I wanted to revisit it. And, and I had also, um, you know, since then, uh, become a father, and I, I, uh, listened to his music with my daughter, and, and she, uh, really related to it and, and loved it. So it had been something I'd always wanted to do. And then, um, I reached this kind of natural break in my songwriting where I had kind of wanted to do different— a different sort of work. I had made 4 records that had very distinct kind of style to them. One may be a little bit different, and I wanted to do something different, so I made a short album of very abstract songs. And then, you know, I, I just like— every time I sat down to try to do something that was new, it felt like I was either taking— you know, when you take a step towards something or away from something, it still feels like a step in relation to that thing. I needed to live in somebody else's imagination and another person's work, and so the two things that felt most natural to me were Twin Peaks and Mr. Rogers, and I found myself with, some studio time, and I just set to learning all these songs and, and, um, you know, trying to live in the songwriting of somebody else. And I think that, uh, I kind of made these— the Twin Peaks record and the Mr. Rogers record— as kind of unintentional companions to each other.

Hmm, yeah. Well, you know, I was going to wait until a little later in the show, but you've created a natural segue with this, actually talking about the Twin Peaks record. And I think in some ways the music that Angela Badalamenti wrote and the lyrics of David Lynch and the way that you do them, they're almost two sides of the same coin. Really, I think. Because I think that David Lynch as a film director and shows like Twin Peaks or the different movies that he made, I don't know that his mission is actually that much different than Fred Rogers' mission. Because one of my favorite and maybe one of the most well-known quotes of Fred Rogers is, "Try your best to make goodness attractive. That's one of the toughest assignments you'll ever be given." And I think It's interesting that David Lynch often through very dark material, I think he's actually doing that same thing. He's making goodness attractive in a way that he portrays evil so clearly, I think sometimes. And I don't know, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because you've done obviously a lot of musical work and I'm sure you must be a big fan of his as well. But I just wonder what your thoughts are on them kind of being two sides of the same coin.

Well, that's, that's interesting. I— it's, it's difficult to, you know, I don't, I don't know what David Lynch's perspective is on inherent goodness, but I do, I do see them as being two sides of the same coin in a lot of ways. I think They're both— it's interesting, they both— both David Lynch and Fred Rogers, they kind of sound alike. If you listen to how they speak, there's that aspect of it, right?

Yeah, that's true.

But they're also two people who encourage living in the world of imagination. And promote that, you know, uh, religiously. And David Lynch does that through, uh, his films and through his sort of, um, being an advocate for meditation and things like this, um, but also in his work in the same way that I think Mr. Rogers does, and just in the sense of encouraging, uh, a sense of immersion you know, being immersed in, in the work and going, you know, uh, into a sort of dream world. And that's one of the things that I loved on Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood was, uh, you know, when you go into the land of make-believe and, and, uh, it's just kind of a, uh, very literal demonstration of, of going into your imagination.

Yeah, yeah, certainly. And, and you're right, that, that's— I hadn't thought of that connection a lot before, but you're right. I do remember now that David Lynch— I'd read a book about him maybe a couple years ago, and he is so much into Transcendental Meditation. And the idea that Fred was always talking and, and really was almost a crusader for silence in people's lives and trying to get people to take time to listen. It's really fascinating the way that brings about such creativity if we can learn to listen. And I think that was something they were both advocates for very much. So, well, listeners are going to want to check out your music for the Twin Peaks as well as some other albums too. So I want to, right in the middle of our conversation, let our listeners know that danielknox.com. K-N-O-X is how you spell Knox. Is a way that they can go and find out about all the music that you have. And I'm going to make sure that we have all of your links as well on our podcast website at Welcome to the Neighborhood. But let's get into a little bit more about your Fred Rogers album today. I'm a musician myself, and I have recorded other people's songs on occasion in recording studios, and I put them on albums and sung them on concerts, you know, when I've been able to travel, which most of us aren't able to travel too much anymore, unfortunately, right now. I hope those days are coming when we can again. But have you ever felt like this when you're recording the music of other people, whether it be Angelo Badalamenti or Fred Rogers or whoever it may be, that they be— the songs that they have written become very personal when you've gone through things like that, recording them, performing them for others, really making them a part of your heart. They can almost feel like you had a hand in writing them in some ways. At least for me they do, because they become so personal. Sure. I, I just wonder if you have interacted with those songs in that way, that they've really become a part of you in the way that you've performed them.

Well, I think when You know, whenever you're performing a song, um, or recording a song, you— at least I tend to try to live inside of it and, um, you know, really kind of break it open and, and, and live in the world of the song, which is to say, uh, not just the song itself but, um, the world that exists beyond the boundaries of it, you know. So you're really living inside, inside of it. Um, yeah, they, they do become personal for me, and I tend to, uh, see myself in them after the fact, even when I hear others perform them, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, I guess I'm not sure entirely how to describe that best.

Yeah, well, it's, it's not an easy thing to describe, but, but I think you've, you've said it pretty well. And, and I want to ask you, while we're talking about ways that songs of Fred Rogers, for instance, have really become a part of you, there's one song in particular on the album that I have listened to again and again, and it was a favorite song before I heard your version. And now that I've heard your version, I, I love it even more, but for different reasons, I think. And that's, and that's the song Sometimes I Wonder If I'm a Mistake. And to me personally, that song, um, just in the way that it's written, the dialogue beforehand between Daniel and Lady Aberlin, um It speaks to the voice that is always in the back of my mind, personally, that causes me to doubt myself. When I heard your version for the first time, honestly, I went to tears because I was hearing in an adult voice, you know, not in Daniel Tiger's voice anymore, which is very childlike, but in your voice, which is such a powerful baritone anyway. You're talking as an adult about things that the rest of us, I think, are wrestling with. And it had such a different effect hearing it in another adult's voice, I think. And I don't know if that'll make a ton of sense, but it, but it really did to me strike me as quite different because it made me feel like, yeah, these same things that we wrestle with as children, we still wrestle with in adulthood, and especially as people who are are creative. I wonder if you could just talk a bit about your version of that song, because you do a really interesting recreation of an episode, really, of the Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, and it's a very famous part. But I'd love to just, you know, feel free to share whatever you like about that, but it's just such a meaningful song to me. I love the way you did it.

Well, thank you. And Yeah, so that, that's probably my favorite song on the record. And I, you know, I'm glad you pointed that out about it being an adult voice because that was actually important to me. You know, um, obviously, you know, I'm not going to like do a Daniel Tiger voice, you know, but sure, um, but, but I— it was important to me to do that dialogue in the beginning and have it play in a very sincere way. And Kit Shields, who does a beautiful job singing the Lady Aberlin part, she helped me kind of, you know, construct the duet arrangement of it and everything, and she did a beautiful job. And, but I think though that I like that you pointed out that it's you know, in an adult voice because, um, I feel like those feelings never really go away and they're feelings that you kind of grow up with when you're young and, and you compare yourself to other people and you, uh, you doubt your, your, your strengths and you, um, kind of build up your weaknesses and And I think that, uh, that was something where, like, I definitely through this whole record didn't want to put anything unnecessary on the songs. I wanted them all to be very taken very seriously and taken at face value. Um, but I, on that one, I'm glad that you point that out because that's something to me where I felt like I was, I was trying to get something across myself and put a bit of myself in it and sing from that perspective as both a child and an adult. And I think, you know, you tend to carry those things with you into adulthood and they don't go away. And neither does the, you know, the sense of encouragement that comes from, you know, Lady Averilland's lyrics in the song.

Hmm, well, and I do thank you for mentioning Kit Shields, who sang with you on that duet, because she has a remarkable voice as well. It's just a very beautiful moment on the album. And I would say that not just that song, but really the whole record, I really do appreciate the fact that where a lot of Fred Rogers albums they almost do try to kiddify it a little bit when they're doing sort of tribute songs. I love the way that you're just being you, using the voice that you have. You're not trying to, to maybe be a children's show host or anything. And it really does feel like you're letting the weight of adulthood speak through these things that Fred Rogers was trying to talk to children about.

And I Yeah, yeah, I, I appreciate that. And I, I think, you know, the, the most important thing to me in making this record was to treat the material, uh, the way that you would treat something like Irving Berlin or Cole Porter, which is not to say necessarily to put it, you know, um, on some sort of pedestal, but to strip away things that are unnecessary and lay it kind of bare and listen to the— I wanted, I wanted something where people could really focus on the composition and the lyrics and appreciate their, their innate value without, you know, as you say, kiddifying it. And kind of because a lot of, you know, a lot of the things that I've heard do that, and I don't want to disparage anything, but I just, uh, I, I kind of feel like when that happens You know, there's, there's people that, that do this material and tend to kind of do it, try to do it in his voice, or try to do it in a way that is sort of condescending, the way people speak to children a little bit sometimes. Um, and, and that takes so much away from it for me because, uh, I think it's, it's, you know, the, the songs are universal. They, they translate to everybody.

Yeah, well, and you know, something that, that I end every episode with is a quote from Fred Rogers where he talks about every person being special, you know, and, and there's only one person like you in the world, and you have your voice and your style of music. And I think if you didn't do it in the way that you can do it best, it wouldn't ring true, and it wouldn't, it wouldn't be the best version that you have, and I really do think in many ways it's what makes this whole album stand out. And I just, I'm so proud of your accomplishment with what you've done here. I think it's something very unique that I've never heard cover songs of Fred Rogers in this way before, and it just is something unique and wonderful. So I appreciate you putting this out into the world for us to hear, and I do think right now is a good moment for it, when we are needing some not only encouragement, but, you know, some of these songs from Fred Rogers that you've recorded, they do deal with anger and madness and just different things that are not often associated with Fred Rogers at times. You've done a great job of kind of bringing out a side of Fred Rogers' music that is often overlooked, I think. And so I appreciate you diving in and finding some of those gems that not everyone knows about, for sure. Thank you. Well, you know, I love talking to you about your music, and I want to be— I want to talk about one other thing, if you don't mind, before we end our conversation tonight. And I do want to close the show with the song that we've been talking about here, "Sometimes I Wonder If I'm a Mistake." because I just really think that's a great song. But do you mind if I ask you a question quickly? That you've told me too that you're a film projectionist, or at least you were when, when there were things like going to movies in the old world. In the old world, for sure. Yeah, I was just curious about that because it actually sounds like to me a fascinating job, and I'm wondering, how does one go about seeking out being a film projectionist? I've never really thought about it.

I'll tell you, uh, I can't recommend that you do go seek it out, especially obviously now, but, uh, you know, there's not a lot of people that are showing actual film anymore. Digital projection has sort of taken over. But in my case, I, um, I, I just loved the movie theater. It's an old— it's the Music Box Theater, uh, in Chicago, Illinois. It's a beautiful old movie house from 1929, and I always admired it. I used to come up to Chicago from Springfield, where I'm from, when I was a kid and go see movies there. And, you know, working there was like a dream job. And I, you know, I started making popcorn, and there was a guy named Seabass that was the projectionist when I started there. And I was 22 years old then. I'm 39 now. And Seabass was quitting and asked if I wanted to learn, and so I just sort of learned piecemeal how to run film, and I had been doing it for quite a long time after that.

That's so cool.

It is a beautiful, really interesting place and an interesting job.

Wow, that does sound great. And so I just wanted people to understand the distinction that it's not just you're pushing play, you're an actual film projectionist, you know? Yeah, yeah. You're showing some of these great classics classic films, I have to ask you, do you have any favorites that you've had the chance to play the films of at the theater over the years that have just really stuck out to you that you've enjoyed?

Yes, let me think about that. So we had a— Dye Madden brought a silent film called Brand Upon the Brain, and we had Crispin Glover come and do the narration, and we had a live orchestra and Foley artists That was one thing. And then David Lynch actually came and I played the organ while he read a poem and I got to meet him and work with him a little bit. And yeah, so that's true. That stick out. Also running the 70mm print of a film called Playtime by Jacques Tati., is, uh, probably a highlight because it was just one of the most beautiful, uh, things I've ever seen.

Wow. Well, you've given me a film I need to look up then because I don't think I've ever seen that one before. So, well, oh no, go ahead.

Oh, I was just gonna say, if you do, if you do watch Playtime, uh, it's, uh, watch it on the biggest screen that you can find.

Okay, all right, good advice, very good. Well, Daniel Knox, as I think Fred Rogers would probably tell you, I'm just going to tell you I'm proud of you and what you're doing, and I want to thank you again for making this great album. For our listeners, I really hope that you'll go out and try to find a copy of it. There's even, if you go on the Bandcamp site that Daniel Knox has, he's even made available special edition cassette tapes of the Fred Rogers music. And the album is called You Are My Friend: The Songs of Mister Rogers, and the artist is Daniel Knox, who has been with me and been so gracious with his time tonight. So thank you for being here. And is there anything else that you'd like to add before we end our conversation? Anything that we can point people to to help you more, maybe with getting your music out, or just anything else in particular you would like our listeners to know tonight?

Well, uh, I think you've pretty much covered it. I guess I would like to say, I think I said at the onset here that my tour was canceled, which it isn't. It's actually been rescheduled to February and March. So, uh, you know, hopefully that all still comes together, but I should probably make that correction. But otherwise, okay, I just say thanks for having me and talking with me about the record. I really appreciate it.

Well, and I appreciate it too. Thank you for being here today. It's been a real joy. Thank you for stopping by the neighborhood today.

You know what, Lady Aberline?

What, Daniel?

I've been wondering something about mistakes.

What is it?

I've been wondering if I'm a mistake.

If you were a mistake?

Mm-hmm.

What do you mean, Daniel?

Well, for one thing, I've never seen a tiger that looks like me. I've never heard a tiger that tiger that talks like me.

No.

And I don't know any other tiger that lives in a clock.

No, neither do I.

Or loves people.

Oh, Daniel.

Sometimes I think I'm too tame. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a mistake. I'm not like anyone else I know. When I'm asleep or when I'm awake, sometimes I get to dreaming that I'm just a fake. I'm not like anyone else. Others I know are big and are wild. I'm very small and quite tame. Most of the time I'm weak and I'm mild. Do you suppose that's a shame? Often I wonder if I'm a mistake. I'm not supposed to be scared, am I? Sometimes I cry and sometimes I shake, wondering, isn't it true that the strong never break? I'm not like anyone else I know. I'm not like anyone else.

I think you are just fine as you are. I really must tell you, I do like the person that you are becoming. When you are sleeping, When you are waking, you are my friend. It's really true, I like you. Crying or shaking or dreaming or breaking, there's no mistaking it, you're my best friend. I think you are just fine as you are. I really must tell you, I do like the person that you are. That you are becoming. When you are sleeping, when you are waking, you're not a fake, you're no mistake, you are my friend.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm as fine as you. I'm not like anyone else.

I really must tell you, I can't help but like you.

Or even awake.

Sometimes I get to dreaming that I'm just a fake. I'm not like anyone else. Others I know are big and are wild. I'm very small and quite tame. Most of the time I'm weak and I'm mild. Do you suppose that's a shame? Often I wonder if I'm—

You are just fine as you are.

I'm not supposed to be scared, am I? Sometimes I cry and sometimes I shake, wondering, isn't it true that the strong never break? I'm not like anyone else I know. I'm not like anyone else.

And to all the listeners, thank you for joining us here this week in the neighborhood. Music featured on the podcast was Nouvelle Noel by Kevin MacLeod, and all other music on today's show is by my guest Daniel Knox from his album You Are My Friend. The Songs of Mr. Rogers. Special thanks to the @MrRogersSay community on Twitter. I appreciate you all. I'm your host, Rick Lee James. My Twitter account is @RickLeeJames, and my website is rickleejames.com. My other podcast is Voices in My Head, and I look forward to being with you again next time. But until then, remember, you make each day a special day. You know how, by just your being you. There's only one person in this whole world like you. And people can like you exactly as you are.