DO THIS To Achieve Anything You Want In Life TODAY! | Lewis Howes | The Expert Series

I remember after I wrote the School of Greatness, New York Times bestseller. All this stuff getting a lot of attention. The only reason this was successful was because I was able to start the process of healing. It's because I was able to deal with these emotions. That's one of the greatest fears, having people see us for who we truly are. Because if people truly knew who we were, we were, man, that fear, if they. If you really knew my darkest secrets, like, who I truly am, would you love me?

Would you accept me? Life is like running a marathon. And then when you realize you have these things, it's like you look behind you and go, oh, man, I've got a backpack on and I've got 50 pounds of weights in here. And you just start taking things out and things just become easier. I am sitting here with Lewis Howes in the School of Greatness studio.

Good to see you, man.

I told you I had a story for you. So I have a story to tell you about my podcast.

Yeah.

So 2015, a ex girlfriend shared a. Went through a pretty bad breakup a couple years before, right? She shared, and she was on a drive, and she said, just listen to an amazing podcast. And it was your picture. And I was like, what the hell's a podcast? Probably 2014, 2015. Then I moved to Austin, Texas, and I had a roommate that kept listening to podcasts over. I used to make fun of him. I was like, you listen to podcasts so much, man. And I had no idea how to listen to him, but he kept listening and he's like, you gotta check this one out. And so it was the School of Greatness podcast. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I would wanna do something like that one day. And I was a musician. That's why I moved to Austin. And I was like, guitar? What were you playing? Yeah, guitar and sing. So I had a microphone in the house. I had a Shure SM7B, the same ones you see everybody using. I had the whole setup, and I was like, man, I could probably do that. And the whole reason why I started the podcast is because I started listening to yours.

That's cool.

And now we're at about 60 million downloads, my man.

Crushing it.

60 million downloads and about to hit 1000 episodes as well.

Wow.

So exciting.

Yeah, we just hit 1,100. So you've been cranking them three episodes.

A week for six years now.

That's amazing, man. Congrats.

Thanks, man. I'm curious, though, with you, you know, I know your story, but I'm curious, what made you want to start a podcast? Because when I started, nobody knew what podcasts were, and you started before I did. So what made you decide to start a podcast?

Sorry. It was January 2013, so I was thinking about it maybe four or five months before that in 2012, and the technology was not there, the awareness was not there. But I remember just feeling stuck. I had moved to LA for a girl. The day I moved, she broke up with me. And I was like, what is happening? My life was going upside down, and we ended up getting back together. It was up and down for the next six months, but I just felt like my life. I'd moved from Ohio to New York City for a year and a half to learn handball, team handball, to try to make the USA national team, to go to the Olympics. My business was exploding during those couple of years. And then I moved to la and everything became, like, very volatile. And I remember being upset that I was in la. I was driving in LA traffic at the time when it was like, took an hour to go one mile. I. I was frustrated with my relationship. Other friendships were kind of failing and breaking down. And I had so much noise in my mind. I felt stuck. And I remember sitting in traffic thinking, like, I feel stuck. And I'm literally stuck in traffic right now. This sucks. I'd rather be back in New York City, walking around, feeling like the king or whatever. And I was like, there's gotta be a way where I can learn something to make myself unstuck, but also for everyone that might be stuck driving in traffic around the world. I was like, there's gotta be a way I can learn for myself, from the greatest minds who can teach me the things that can overcome this. But also, I'm sure there's a lot of people in traffic who are miserable right now, for sure. How can I make this a win, win? And that was the moment where I was like. I remember hearing about podcasting. A couple of friends had one. I literally called them in the car. Cause I'm sitting there forever. I called them in the car and asked them, tell me about the podcast you have. Tell me why you love it. Is it working for you? Is it not? And both of them said it was, like, the greatest thing. The joy they got from it. They said the community they were building from it, they loved it. And I was like, if these guys could do this, I'm sure I could figure this out. Even though I have no experience doing any type of technical work, podcasting, interviewing like this, I really don't know what I'm doing. But I love human beings, and I'm fascinated by learning from them. And I want to learn the skills that I didn't have in school growing up. And that's how it connected. I was like, I wish there was a school I could have gone to to help me overcome the fear of failure. Imposter syndrome. Doubting myself, dealing with the chatter in my mind, negative thoughts, how to deal with breakups and relationships. Like, no one ever taught me these things. Parents did the best they could, but they don't have all the answers. Teachers do their best they can on subjects, but they don't have the answers. My coaches in sports probably taught me the most because they teach you how to overcome failure. They teach you how to prepare for big moments. They teach you a lot of these things, the great ones. But in general, I felt like, man, so many things I'm dealing with my heart and my mind that I don't know how to manage well. I wish there was a school for this. I wish there was a school that was just, like, taught you how to be great, the School of Greatness. And that's where it came.

Did you have that idea of the name?

I'm literally in there in the car, and I called my friend James Wedmore, who, you know, and I go, I got this idea, school of Greatness. What do you think of this name? And he was like, I love it. And I called my other friend, Derek Halpern. I go, I'm thinking about doing this podcast, School of Greatness. What do you think? He goes, terrible name. And today he'll still say, man, yeah, I'm glad you didn't listen to me because it's an amazing name.

Yeah.

And it didn't make sense for me at the time, but it's been, like, the greatest name that you've ever come up with. And, yeah, I just wanted to create something that I wish I would have had growing up. I feel like a lot of kids and individual and adults still don't have those tools. And that's why I think your show and my show and a lot of our friends shows, we're trying to create that environment and experience for people to learn in a way to help us overcome whatever challenges we're dealing with.

So we have a moment where, like, reason why I started my podcast, I felt like I was obligated to talk. So before we started, I was telling how we started in Cutco, and I was obsessed with personal development, and my story is personal development helped me get over my father's death. My father's an alcoholic and dealing with that, the traumas that come from having an alcoholic father. And I was in Jason's deli place with my girlfriend and there was like this moment where I felt like everybody was yelling at their kids and they were screaming, and it was just like. It was like a fever pitch where it just kind of like hit. I was like, I think I'm going to start a podcast. She's like, I don't even know what that is.

Right.

And so I described it to her. But there was an. I felt obligated to teach what was in my head. Was there a feeling of obligation on, you know, you're around people that are great and you want to bring these conversations. Like, what was the feeling that made you decide that that was the thing?

It's kind of like this thing that was pulling at me that was nagging at me. I actually had this dream of doing the podcast back in 2007, when I was on my sister's couch, stopped playing football, was transitioning into figuring out who am I going to be in the world, what is going to be my identity, what am I going to. Am I'm going to build a business. I was just like, I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. And I started dreaming at that moment that I would love to sit down and have conversations with really talented, smart people. At the time, it was more like, I'd love to interview world class athletes. Because I was fascinated by world class athletes. How they became champions, how they overcame challenges, how they come from behind. I was fascinated by it because that was the world I was in. And so I started to do that by just meeting people and having conversations one by one. But I was never recording it. I just started using LinkedIn as a tool to network and find CEOs, executives, business leaders, athletes, former athletes. And I would just have coffee with people. Back during those few years, no one knew who I was. I didn't have a platform, I didn't have an audience. And so I was like, this is something I want to do. But I knew I wasn't ready for it. I knew I needed other skills at that time and in order to be able to do it and make an impact on myself and other people. And I built another business during those four or five years, which gave me a lot of training and tools to then give me more credibility, to be able to have access to more inspiring people. So I feel like everything happens at the right timing. And as things started to break down for me, I was like, okay, I think this is. I had money. I had some success in business already. And I was like, well, if I do this, no one knows what this is. I'm not gonna make any money doing this. But it's exactly what I wanna do. So even if I don't make money, I'm happy. I think that was a calling for me. It was like, I don't care if I make a dollar all year. I just wanna do this once a week and have inspiring conversations with people for myself to figure out how to get out of this rudiment at this season of my life. And if a few people listen and it helps them, great. And within that first year, it kind of exploded in a sense, to where I was like, oh, yeah, maybe we can make money doing this. And then now we are eight years later.

It's crazy. And what's super important what you're saying, though, is there was some feeling of a universal pull. And I think a lot of people get that feeling and the pull, but they don't listen to it. And I feel like a lot of people that we know mutually. I hear their stories about pulls, and not even. Just. Even people outside of who I know that. It's just. They have a pull, but instead of silencing it, they decide to go for it. And for you, it sounds like the pull was there and you listened to it, not knowing how it was gonna work out. You didn't know it would be what it is now, I'm sure.

No idea.

But you just listened to it, ended up working out.

I've always listened to it since I was a kid, to every pull I've had, and it's never failed me. It might have not worked out the way I wanted to, but it's always led me to something greater, even if it didn't work out the way I envisioned it.

Yeah.

And so looking back at those experiences in my life, I know that when I take on something new, if it doesn't work out the way it's supposed to in my mind or the way I envision it, I know that it's setting me up for something greater, because everything has set me up for something greater for sure. So that's the way I look at it.

Yeah.

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Yeah, the thing that's. That's interesting. I always tell people having a podcast is the most cathartic thing I've ever done. And the reason why was because going back to my father's death, I never talked about it. Like, and I want to talk about this with, you know, the mask of masculinity. I wasn't supposed to cry. I wasn't supposed. So my dad died on a Thursday. I went back to school on Monday and told nobody college. No, I was 15. High school, right. So I didn't even tell my best friends. The only way they found out was my mom told her My three best friends, parents, you know, and so. But you didn't talk about it. You're not supposed to. Right? And so for the longest time, nobody knew. I didn't tell anybody. And it was just like this mask I wore. I was embarrassed by him, didn't want to pick me up from school when he was alive. All of this stuff. And I remember literally in the other room is my business partner Dean, and I. Literally, we were on our way back from a podcasting event before we started, and I wrote down 100% authenticity, because I had just read Brene Brown's book and about vulnerability. And I was like, I'm just going to talk about it. I'm going to put all my shit out there. And it's so freeing to finally take all of your shit and put it out there for everybody to be able to hear. And I know you've done the same as well. And so I'm curious, has having a following and a podcast and people who are supporting you when you're going through talking about some of the toughest times of your life, what's that journey been like for you?

Freedom.

Yeah.

I mean, it's scary to put it out the first time if you've never done it before. I'm not saying that people should put it out publicly. Their fears or shames or insecurities. That was the path that I chose to do, and it sounds like you as well. I felt more of a duty and responsibility and an opportunity for growth because it still had power over me. My shame was my sexual trauma. Growing up as a kid was one of the shames that I was unwilling to tell anyone because I didn't think anyone would love me. I didn't think anyone would accept me. I thought people would just discard me as a human, as I had thought I'd been discarded in that moment of sexual trauma. And when I started to open up about it individually, one to one, small groups, friends, family, things like that, it gave me a lot of peace after the fact. Very scary to do it. But then I started to feel more and more confident, more and more connected to the individuals that I was communicating with. They would be vulnerable with me. We created that connection. I thought it was good, but I was like, someone said, you should talk about this on your podcast. This was like the first year, year and a half of my show. And I was like, no fucking way am I going to talk about this publicly. And I had a moment. I was just like, why am I resistant? Why am I scared still? And I Was like, if I truly want to overcome this and be at peace, I can't be afraid to talk about this publicly either. Otherwise, that moment still has power over me. It's still controlling my energy.

It's.

It's allowing me to have fear. And I was like, wow. For six months, I sat on it. I remember thinking, like, do I want to do this? I eventually said, okay, I'm going to do this, and this is going to ruin my life. But I need to do it to have peace. Because I didn't have peace. I still was a prisoner to the pain. And I remember asking Jonathan Fields, who's a buddy of mine who's got a great podcast and a spiritual, you know, mentor friend of mine, I said, hey, I want to do this. I have no clue what I'm doing. Can you guide me and can you kind of interview me on my show and facilitate it? Because I don't want to mess this up. I don't want to have it come out the wrong way. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I just want to, like, have some support in this process. So he did the interview with me, and I sat on it for almost six months because I was afraid to put it out there afterwards. I was like, what am I doing? Like, I'm never going to make money again. No one's going to love me. Like, I'm going to lose all my audience. It was like this fear. And I remember I was just like, man, this thing is still consuming me. I need to put it out there. I put it out there. I remember I didn't know what day it was or what was happening in the world, but it was supposedly like, I remember pushing publish in WordPress, and it was like, maybe at 10 o' clock at night or something, 10 or 11 o' clock at night. And then I go into my balcony and I was like, I'm not gonna look at anything. I'm not gonna look at Twitter or social media. I'm not gonna look at emails until the next day. Put it out there. I go on my balcony and it felt like it was daylight out. It was supposedly, like one of the biggest supermoons ever in, like, the last hundred years. And it was like, so big. I was like, man, this is crazy. I had no clue this was happening. And I was just like, okay, maybe this is a sign. I don't know, Maybe it's the right timing. And then I woke up the next day flooded with hundreds of emails from men sharing their sexual abuse story for the first Time to you.

An email to me.

Email Essays. Some of the most. Some of the most horrific stories that I'd ever read that made me. Because I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one that had been through this type of experience. That's what I was so afraid of. Like, I'm the only one, which means I'm worthless. Which means I've been abused, I've been taken advantage of. How could anyone ever love me and accept me? That was the fear. That was the story. And when I got these emails, it took me about two weeks to recover because they just kept coming in for weeks.

And you read all of them?

I read through all of them. And it's like this emotional hangover. I'd never been drunk or hungover in my life, but I can only imagine what it would feel like to be hungover from these emotions that I was feeling. The stories that men were sharing were horrific, and it was almost like I was reliving all their pain. I'm not saying that's what I should have done, but I was just reliving it. It was so fresh for me. And men who had been married for 30 years, who had five kids that their wife didn't know, their kids didn't know, that said, I'm going to go tell my wife and kids. Wow. I was like, holy cow, this is crazy. And that's when I realized, okay, this is bigger than me. I need to go research this more. I need to go, like, do my homework. And that's why I wrote a book about masculine masculinity where I was like, men in general, especially in America, and kind of where the regions I grew up in never had the tools to talk and express about the pain in a healthy way with a guy friend, parents, girlfriends, without being shamed or told, like, suck it up. Don't be a wuss. Be a man. Don't cry in front of me. I don't want to hear this crap. Whatever. That's what I experienced. And it's probably what I did also, around peers, around other men. And I think I want to just be the best example I can be, to try to shift that narrative and be a symbol, be an example and put it out there constantly. So that's why I talk about my show, all my flaws, all the time, and I think we're all a work in progress. But it's been a powerful journey of just listening to what I. Listening to the pain, speaking into it, so it doesn't have power over me.

It's like that phrase, shame breathes in the dark. You know, when you keep something in the dark, it just continues to keep growing.

Festures, man.

Oh, for sure. And so for you, what do you feel like you've learned most about yourself in that process?

From that experience or from the point.

From that experience?

Oh, man. That holding on to shame will kill you. And for me, it was killing me inside. It was creating a disease, an emotional disease that would come out at different times in my life, whether it be anger, resentment, rage, competition, the need to be right, the need to win, the need to look good. It was a disease, and it was because I was unwilling to let go of the shame. I was holding onto the poison so much that anytime I was triggered emotionally or felt like I was being taken advantage of, it was like I was back in the bathroom when I was raped at 5 years old. That's how it felt. Anytime someone cut me off in a car, I wanted to get out of the car and physically destroy them. It was irrational. Yeah. Because I didn't know how to heal the shame. I didn't know how to go back and. And really, like, connect to my inner child and really have a conversation and let that go and forgive and move on. I was holding on to so much resentment and anger. So that's the biggest lesson. It was like the shame will. Will destroy you. It will destroy you personally, your happiness, your fulfillment. It'll destroy your sleep. It'll destroy. It'll cause addictions. It'll destroy your relationships unless you learn how to heal it. And it's been. It's a constant healing process, and there's other things we're gonna need to learn to let go of always. So it's a constant process, for sure.

So you thought people were gonna disregard you, forget about you?

I thought people were gonna. Yeah.

I mean, but what did you see instead of that, besides the emails? What did you notice as far as people you're friends with bringing that out? Because I get. I mean, you probably get all the time in. There's so many people having a following and having. With what we speak about and self development, all that. The category that we're in, we are sometimes the only person people reach out to. And you have way more compassion for people as you start to get in the field that we're in, and the people that we stuff that we see, the stories that we see. So I have a lot of people that reach out to me and tell me some of the deepest, darkest things, thinking that there's nobody that will Ever accept them, which is what you thought. So what was. What was the response of people that you were close to?

It was amazing. I mean, people were loving and supportive and kind and compassionate. And I think that's we are. I was afraid that no one would like me. And in return, by being vulnerable, everyone loved me more, everyone trusted me more, respected me more, had, you know, they wanted to be around me more. And I think that's what we need to learn. That, like, if you actually, like, the greatest hack to having, like, credibility or power or influence is not by acting powerful and trying to look strong and not showing, like, your. Your vulnerabilities, it's actually by revealing yourself, opening up your heart and sharing things that, oh, maybe I'm not confident here. I struggle with this. So people can actually feel like they can trust you and connect and relate. And I think if you want power, if you want respect, if you want authority, if you want command, if you want influence, being vulnerable is the key that unlocks all those things that people fake to try to get or they try to mask to try to say, I am powerful, I deserve respect. I deserve this. I'm building an audience based on false things as opposed to who you really are. And I think when we step into who we really are, it doesn't mean this. My past defines me. But just being able to open up about it makes you more powerful, makes you more trustworthy, makes you more lovable. So if you want love, be open.

I had a really similar conversation with dinner with Jay Shetty last night. And we were talking about, have you met Radhanath Swami, his guru? Kindest, slowest, speaking, most present person I've ever been in, in a room with. Like, when he looks at you, there's nothing else that exists in the entire world. And we were talking about how the only person I've ever met that's been close to that was my grandfather. Nothing that you could ever do could make him not love you like it was. And there's very few people that exist like that in the world. We were talking about how the most powerful people that we know that command a room aren't people that are aggressive. They aren't people that try to show how powerful they are. They're actually people who would sit in the back of the room, but when you get a moment with them, they come. Somehow that vulnerability and that humility commands, respects respect of every single person around them.

Absolutely.

And the only other person he said, which I know you had on the podcast as well, that wasn't a Monk. That he's felt that way was with Kobe Bryant. He said he felt like when he was with Kobe, there was. The room disappeared, and the guy was just fully present and everything. But that's an example of somebody who retired and was at peace with everything that he did.

Yeah, we also. My experience with him, he was never. Never felt like he was above me. He was, like, cared about me in the moment, and it felt very authentic. It wasn't about what's happening around. There was a lot of people around, and he was just focused and was kind and compassionate. And it wasn't about, like, I know all the answers. It was more a conversation. So, yeah, he definitely had that. I don't know if he had that 10 years ago, but I think he. He's had it after his retirement for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, man. There's a lot of. I mean, you don't go through life without having some scars. Everyone's got scars in some sort of way. And I think it all goes back to the fact that we all want to be loved and we all want to be accepted, and we think that those things that happened in our past are what's getting in the way of us being loved and accepted. But it's almost like the sharing of that to the people who we actually love is the thing that makes us become more loved and accepted.

Absolutely.

I'm curious, with significant other relationships, has that been a big shift for you since you. You went out and shared it?

Absolutely.

You feel like you've. You've become more of who you truly are in that.

Absolutely. I mean, I still talk to my girlfriend now. She'll tell you I probably have a long way to go, but I think we all do. Yeah. But I. It's made me like, I never did therapy before. I don't know, eight years ago. And now I'm just such a fan. Like, it doesn't make sense to me why I would have a coach in sports to help me excel, but I wouldn't have a coach in relationships to help me improve the quality of my relationships, I'll hire a coach for business, for fitness, for sports, for money. But we learn relationships modeled from our parents. Most of the time, they weren't the best. Some people rarely do. I hear people say, my parents were amazing, and it was safe, peaceful. There was no arguments. They taught us how to respect ourselves. They taught us how to stand up for ourselves in relationships. They taught us not to get walked all over. Rarely did we get that from our parents. If you got that, great. But most People didn't, they don't teach you it in school. Obviously it's not their job to teach you how to manage relationships. But if we don't get taught these things, how are we supposed to learn it for sure? So for me, I feel like therapy gives us so many tools to get these things out of our head, the fears, the concerns, out of her head and be able to navigate relationships more. So for me, it's been game changer to have therapy throughout the years coaching to support in intimate relationships. But it always goes back down to it's never about the other person in a relationship that makes you angry. It's about what have you yet to heal inside of yourself or from past some event that still makes you angry. It's just rising above all those things. So really I have learned through my partner, my intimate partners, that they are my greatest teachers to my pain. And when I can learn to not react and get defensive or angry about something they do or don't do or something they're mad about me or whatever, when I can learn to really fully elevate beyond that, that's when I learned, oh, I'm starting to heal. It's when I get defensive, reactive, angry, frustrated, controlling or whatever I might want to feel something inside of me is yet to heal fully. And so that's where I get to do the work, not blame something on them.

Yeah.

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There's a inside of your book. You talk about the traditional view of men. And I remember we've both created viral videos and put them out on the Internet and had them do millions of views and stuff. But one of the ones that I had an idea of that I never did was having a bunch of young boys sit there and look directly at the camera and say all the things that you hear, which. And I don't want to. Women hear. Girls hear terrible things as well. But I only know from a boy's perspective, you know, of the stuff that you hear. So, like, if you look at the traditional view of a man or a boy and what you're supposed to be growing up, what is the type of stuff that you put in the book of what the traditional view is and what we're supposed to be?

Strong providers, not crying, you know, dominant sex magnets, you know, all those things. Conquerors, competitive. Yeah, that's what you hear, accomplish, you know, all those things. Yeah, that's the traditional things, right?

Yeah, for sure. And I think that if I would say that it's interesting, man, because there's an interesting perspective I have with these where it's like, there's a part of me that thinks that going through the stuff that I went through is really, really good because it got me to become where I am now, but it also got me to a point where I woke up and went, wow. Because you've been to the point, I'm sure, where you have checked off all the boxes, right? You've had success, you've done the things, you've had millions of views, all the things that you think make you successful, and you think that is what you want, and then you get there and you don't feel any different about yourself. And in a lot of cases, I usually feel worse. Yeah, I was gonna say, in a lot of cases, you actually feel like. I think it's the reason why people who win the championship the very next day is the worst day of their life, they're depressed because that one thing that they wanted to become, they had and they got it. And then, like, this doesn't fill the void in my soul. For me, it was when I ran my Cutco office, all I wanted to be was number one. I got to number one, and then I ran it to the ground because I just hated it at that point. And for you, I think I've heard you say it was becoming an all American athlete. Once you finally got it, it was.

Like, I was angry and mean. Like, right afterwards. Within, like an hour later, I remember I was at the dinner table with my parents were there, my team, my coaches. And I was like, probably the worst person to be around a couple hours after being on the podium doing something I'd tried so hard to do my whole life, did it. And I didn't know why I wasn't happy. What I realized is that there are two powerful fuels that we have as humans. I was driven by anger to prove people wrong. From the bullying, the abuse, all these different things. I was like, I'm gonna make something of myself to prove all these moments and situations wrong so that I can feel better then. So I can finally feel like I'm enough. And anger, resentment, frustration, proving is the second most powerful fuel in the world. It will get you to incredible places, to accomplishments, to achieving these goals, as it did for me. Sports, business, relationships, all this stuff. But it left. There was never one time where I felt good about myself after the end result. And it wasn't until I hit 30, when I woke up to that and went through the process of actually addressing the sexual trauma, starting to heal that process where I was like, wow, I've been doing this all wrong my entire life. I've been driven to prove people wrong, to look good, to be right, to feel enough, to feel loved, to feel worthy by other people. When what I need to do is just love myself and use the fuel to serve other people. The fuel should be led by service, by growth, by contribution. And when I started to shift that I vividly remember, I was never able to sleep at night. It would take me hours to fall asleep. My entire childhood, all through college, my late 20s, until I started to heal the shame of the past. And it's like I could go sleep in 5, 10 minutes, and I could never do that. I would try every technique, ac, sound machines, whatever, and I could never fall asleep because I had so much anger in my mind that was consuming me. I was like, what do I need to do to prove this person wrong? How do I need to get a leg up here? What strategy and technique do I need to get a move ahead? Like, how can I position myself? Whatever it was, it was a game to prove people wrong. And that fuel worked. The masks we wear as humans work to an extent, but my heart never felt at peace. My mind always felt under distress. And when I shifted and said, I'm living my life to serve. I'm going to use my talents, use my gifts to create something of my dreams and I want to accomplish those goals and dreams, but it's not determined on the result. It's determined on the daily process of service. I tell you what, I sleep like a baby when I'm in that state. Sometimes I'll fall back in a competitive mode or whatever, or, like, needing to prove. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, this doesn't serve me. It doesn't serve the mission. It doesn't serve other people. So let me focus on service, using my gifts and my talents, and it always works out better, even if I don't accomplish the result.

So you went from healing it, but then you wrote an entire freaking book on it. So that's a whole other. I mean, that's a massive thing to undertake, to not only go through your own healing, which is. I mean, that's all of our journey here on life and I believe is just a spiritual journey to go through whatever we need to heal through. Right, but you decided to write a book on it. Was that just a massive undertaking? Because now you have people that are reaching out to you. You have people who are going to be reading this that you're going to connect yourself. Their story's going to connect with your story. What was that process?

I wrote the book on it. And I remember after I wrote the School of Greatness, New York Times bestseller, all this stuff getting a lot of attention, people that knew me, my agents, things like this were like, okay, let's work on the business book. Let's work on, like, the next big book. For whatever reason, I was just like, the only reason this was successful is because I was able to start the process of healing, is because I was able to deal with these emotions. And at the time, back in 2015, 16, 17, there was a lot, I mean, still happening today, but I was noticing a lot of trauma and negative events. Shootings, racial tensions, political tensions happening still, obviously, today. And it was all being caused by men that were leading the charge in the anger, in the attacks and the domestic violence, on the shootings, on all these things. And I was like, now that I'm learning that this was part of me. Like, I used to be the angry person that would get defensive. Luckily, I never did anything to cross a boundary of harming someone physically in that level. But I was like, wow, maybe I could have. If I would have held onto this pain for 30 more years, maybe I would have snapped for sure. So not saying any of these acts are okay, and they're not okay, but understanding from a place of compassion that these men Never learned the ability to heal. And I'm not saying it's okay and everyone has the responsibility of their actions. But I was like, this is what matters more to me now than writing some other book about what's the next strategic move for my business. I knew this was going to take two years of my life, and it wasn't going to help me financially. It wasn't going to help my business or my brand or positioning. This was, how can I show up in service? And if one man reads this or one woman reads this, and it helps their relationship and it helps them understand the men in their life better, and it can help them heal, then it's worth it. For me, it was not about the money. It was about how can I create something to serve? And that really opened me up to, like, just living from that space where good things will happen to you when you're living in service and not focused on just money. Yes, I want to make a lot of money. Yes, I want to use it as resources to create more. But it's gotta be from a place of this is here to serve a higher mission for me, that's what gives me ultimate fulfillment.

Yeah.

Cause more and more money, once you've made a lot of money, you're like, okay, just making more doesn't fulfill you as much. It's like, it's cool, it's nice. You can do good things with it. But if that's the driver, I just don't feel as fulfilled as when there's service behind it as well.

For sure. 100%. And so you had a lot of people email you after the episode. So now you write an entire book on it.

Yeah.

So what's the response? What have you learned about people since putting the book out?

I've learned that we don't have tools to heal ourselves, like, especially men. I went on a tour and talked about it, and I remember asking. And I'd have about 50% women in the room and 50% men. And I asked this question everywhere around the country. I'd say, say there'd be a few hundred people at each event. And I'd say, okay, all the ladies in the room, raise your hand. If once a week you get together with a girlfriend or a group of girlfriends once a week, and you talk about your insecurities, your fears, your doubts, your shame, your vulnerabilities, the problems in your relationships, raise your hand. If you do this once a week, almost every female in the room said, yeah, once a week, I call a girlfriend, I talk to My mom, my sister, whatever it is, I'm in this conversation talking about it. And I said, keep your hands up if you do this every day. And almost everyone left their hands up every day. We're in conversation talking about it. Yeah. I said, okay, thank you. Hands down. All the men in the room, raise your hand. If once a month you get together with a group of guys or one guy friend, you talk about your insecurities, your vulnerabilities, your doubt, your shame, all this stuff, your marriage issues, raise your hands. If you do this once a month, there would only be maybe two or three max. And I'd say, are you guys part of a required church group that does this? Essentially, where it's like, you create a safe environment where you can go there, and there's 50 men talking about these things in a safer, bigger context. And most of them were like, yeah. And I said, ladies, imagine if you only did this once a month. How would it make you feel? Imagine if you didn't do this ever. Like, most of the men in the room never do this. Other. They can go to the game together, they can have a beer or pizza, or they can hang out and play games, sports, whatever, the typical stereotype. But most men don't have one guy friend. The stats say it's almost 50%. I think it's 48% of men say they don't have one male friend they can open up to fully. So I say to the women, not saying the actions of men are okay, not saying anything that they do is agreeable when it's hurtful. Not saying any of that is okay. Everyone's responsible for their actions. But just imagine how it would make you feel. Shout out, how would it make you feel? Women would say, I'd go insane. I'd go crazy. If I could not talk about my feelings. I would explode. And I go, well, it's no wonder we're seeing men explode in different ways throughout the world. Again, it's not okay. Take responsibility for their actions, and they should be punished. But we need to start allowing for all humans, men and women, all humans, to be able to talk about their feelings in a way where it's not looked down upon, where it's not looked as weak, where we can celebrate it, not shame it. And I think the fear for men is that they still feel like they're not celebrated for expressing themselves in a healthy way through therapy, the stigma of it. They're not celebrated in general. And I feel like men still feel shamed for talking about the things they're not proud of the things they've gone through. And it is. It took me 25 years until I hit 30 when I started to heal from something that happened from 5 years old. And it was probably the scariest thing that I'd ever done. It's scary to talk about it if you've never done it before. And so I think we just need to learn. We need to start making it more acceptable and celebrating it, encouraging it. And I'll hear this story a lot. Again, I don't want to generalize this, but I'll hear this a lot. That I'll hear, like, men will say, you know what? I'm going to get the courage to talk to my wife and tell my wife how I really feel. Like I've been having this on my chest my whole life. I'm going to go, I'm going to show some emotion. I'm going to cry. Because she never says I'm sensitive. She never says I'm opening up. She wishes I would open up more. And then they do it. And I hear this from men a lot, that the woman doesn't know how to handle it. They're like, well, no, I need you strong in this moment. I'm feeling weak. I'm feeling vulnerable. I need you to be strong. And so if the man is shamed one time when they try to do this, why would they ever be vulnerable again? They're gonna say, okay, I need to get myself together. I need to be strong. I can't feel this right now because I need to be there for my family. And I get it. I'm not saying that's okay either. But it's just a challenging, messy process. So I hope we can, as men, celebrate other men and as women celebrate the men in their lives, on being comfortable and holding that space, allowing them to do it without being uncomfortable. You've maybe never seen a man do that, and it's gonna be uncomfortable until you accept it.

Yeah. I think you had Lori Gottlieb on your podcast. Yes. Yeah, I had her on mine. And she said very similar thing where it's that women expect men. Women want men to be vulnerable. This is what you. What you said was so important for men to hear, but also for women who are listening to here as well, is that women want their men to be vulnerable, but when that vulnerability comes out, they don't know sometimes how to be the strong one.

They don't know.

And so they close off because they don't know how to take this guy who's Trying to express all of their feelings and all of their shit that happened to them in the past possibly. And they close off, which immediately you can tell when someone closes off makes men close off even more. There's no safety there. Because you know, you could say masculine and feminine and take those two and take men and women out of it. But if a man's normally masculine, woman's normally feminine a lot of times and then a man comes in and says something that is feminine, the woman then is like, I don't know how to handle this. I don't know how to be the strong one. When in reality it's the same thing where it's just like, you know, women are always like, just listen to me, just let me express. And I don't take. I don't think we have the, like you're saying we don't have the tools to know how to help somebody through that. But I think what you're saying is so important is to be able to be strong and let somebody go through that.

That's it. I'm not, yeah, I'm not shaming either party here. It's just I think we don't have those tools in general. We haven't been taught those tools for sure. Period. And that's why I think we need to start opening up to them. Otherwise there's going to be more and more problems for sure.

What are some of the other masks that men wear through the mask? Masculinity that you found?

The joker, the Know it All, the sexual mask. Those are common ones. You see, you know, everyone's got the friend who always tells a joke in a sensitive moment, right. Cause they don't know how to actually just deflection. Yeah, it's like, ah, let's just make it all like feel a little better right now. And who's always telling a joke? It's one to gain like attention and to feel loved and worthy and feel enough. And these masks are okay at certain times, but when it becomes your identity and you can't take it off, like, hey, if you're funny all the time, great. But also you need to be able to flex and be like, you know what? This is a sensitive moment. Let me be in this moment and feel this. And it's uncomfortable. And not just tell the joke. The Know it All mask. It's like, there's some smart dudes out there. A lot of men in the world are much smarter book wise than me. They have a lot more of general school intelligence than me. I didn't do well in school. I call myself a wise man. I'm not a book intelligent man, but I'm a wise human being from the streets or from just life going through different experiences. But there are some men that use the mask of I know everything in their relationship or in school or work, I have the answers, I am the smartest, I know everything. There is a use to having knowledge. There is a use to it, but it's how you use the mask. And if you're using it all the time and it's hurting others, that doesn't work for your intimate relationships. Sexual mask. You know, it's like a lot of men, probably you might have experienced this or know some of the guys growing up. It's like it was all about, how many girls can you hook up with to feel like you're cool, accepted, like you're enough, that you're a real man because you slept with more women. And that hurts women, that hurts yourself, that hurts women. If that's like your life, you know, I'm all for dating, exploring and all these things, but if that becomes your identity, it's like I need to be sleeping with more and more and more women all the time to feel loved, then that's probably not going to work out the best for you in the end. So it's learning how to be aware of what is your dominant mask, why you're living that way. And this just takes time and awareness. It's not easy to look at these things. And that's why usually these are involuntary moments that happen for us to wake up. It's not like, oh, I just want to be conscious today. Things are pretty good, but I want to see how I can improve myself. It's usually when something happens, your dad dies, I go through a breakup, we get in a fight, you lose your job, near death experience. It's usually these involuntary experiences in our life that get us to say, something's not working. I need to figure out what it is. I need to start shifting. I wish all of us could on a daily basis say, what can I do right now? Something's not working. How do I improve this? This is why I think it's important for us to keep doing what we're doing. Because we're in this work daily. We're constantly working on growth. And the people that are listening or consuming are constantly saying, how can I improve as well. That's hard. It's hard to be voluntarily saying, what can I do to just learn and improve and see? I can tweak a Little bit every single day. Not wait for a breakdown to happen. But unfortunately, most of us wait.

Yeah. As you're speaking, man, I can think of the whole progression of how it's worked for me, of needing to prove myself. And I remember, you know, I grew up in sports, all sports, you know, so it's very masculine in a lot of ways. Right. And so I remember when I first got into Cutcombe and I became a manager with it.

Played baseball.

I played. I played baseball, basketball, and football. So I played all of them. Basketball was my main sport, though. And so for me, the thing that was really eye opening to me is I was about two years in a Cutco and I was managing people and I was running trainings and stuff. And my. My manager says, hey, can you come meet me at Chipotle? I was like, sure. So we go meet at Chipotle. And he goes, hey. He was very blunt. You know, that's the way I needed it to be. He goes, I don't know how else to tell you this, but a lot of people don't like you.

Wow.

And that was the first time I ever even had any idea people. I thought I was awesome, right? I was like, we're doing crushing it. We have a great office. Everything's going well. He's like, it's because people don't know your heart. I know your heart. Cause I see you every single day. But you have a wall up that's keeping people from seeing that. And you're actually running a lot of people away. So you're extremely successful now. But if you could open, like, break the walls down and open yourself up, you have so many more people. And so I had another manager who is known as being a really. He was really great at developing women managers in the company. So you look across the entire company, there's women managers, but he was the actual manager that managed more women, brought more women up. So I went to him and I was like, I don't understand what I'm doing. Like, I thought I was good and I'm crushing it. Yeah, I'm crushing it. And then he was like, well, you just have to realize it's different. And he's like. So then took me on this journey of, like, how to interact with women different ways and how I was, you know, I was too aggressive in certain ways and how to work through it. And I thought I worked through it a lot, and I definitely got better. And then there was one moment where one of my friends got pretty drunk. And at the end of the Night. Whatever I had said to him over years and years and years built up and it came out and he said it, and he said, I don't think that you realize that you're so insecure that all you do is throw little. What he called them was negs. You throw little negs at people all the time.

Wow.

And what he meant by that was like just little jabs. Little tiny jabs. It wasn't like it used to be where I was known as, like, the guy was brash, sharp tongue, all that stuff, but it was just like little jabs.

Subtle, tough, right?

And the phrase I've heard that works perfect with that is. Is talking down to people as a poor man's version of self worth. And I was like, oh, my self worth is so low that I literally have to cut people down at any moment that I can possibly find to make myself feel better. Feel better.

Yeah.

Yeah. And for me, that was. That's.

That's a journey.

But. But growing up and like, that's what men do, right? So there's a. I think what's important, though, is knowing that there's a difference between. Between doing it as a joke and that happens sometimes, or doing it because your self worth is low and realizing that you're afraid to actually let people in. And for me, that was a massive awakening.

I mean, the fear to be truly seen is a big fear for everybody, for everyone. I think for men, it's been conditioned to not. You know, in sports, it's like, don't let them see you in pain. On the field, it's like, don't show weakness. Don't let them see you. If you're hurt, get back up and act like you're fine. Trick the competition that you're okay. And they were expected to flip the switch in real world after three hours of intense practice. And why would we not carry that pattern into our lives? Trick, the competition, your family, your girlfriend, guy friends, don't show them you're weak. It's like we're conditioned to follow through that pattern. Unfortunately. And I'm not saying it's, you know, right or wrong. It's just like, what is the most efficient way of living our lives? And we gotta start supporting each other more. We gotta start celebrating and being people to open up. That's one of the greatest fears. And having people see us for who we truly are. Because if people truly knew who we were, man, that fear. If you really knew my darkest secrets, like, who I truly am, would you love me? Would you accept me? That's a fear, man. And I think when you can overcome that, you're not a prisoner to it anymore. And that is powerful.

Yeah, it's like running, I would say it's like life is like running a marathon. And then when you realize you have these things, it's like you look behind you and go, oh man, I've got a backpack on and I've got 50 pounds of weights in here. And you just start taking things out and things just become easier. And you know, do you feel like after you've let it go and you've worked through it and tried to help other people through it that, you know, relationships have gotten easier, business has gotten easier, Everything that you do has gotten easier in a way that you don't have to put this because that's extra energy at all points in time to put up this fake identity and be able to run a business and be able to be in a relationship.

Jordan Peterson said something interesting when I interviewed him. He said, you know, you don't want to protect your kids from their vulnerabilities. You want them to learn how to overcome them by being stronger. And I feel like I've just gotten stronger. The challenges are still there at a new level. I've gotten stronger, wiser. I'm more efficient with my energy, with my emotions, so that I'm not carrying it as much. It doesn't make it necessarily easier all the time. I'm just aware of it and I don't hold onto it as much and so it allows me. But everything is different levels. You know, I was playing at a certain level a year ago, three years ago, five years ago, and there's different opportunities, different pressures, new relationships. And so it's learning at different levels and I don't know if it's ever going to get. It's easier for sure, but I don't know if it's ever going to be less challenging. You know, it's going to be constantly like learning how to manage and navigate the emotions. With more practice though, I'm definitely getting better. Yeah.

Do you have another book in?

You got multiple books? Yeah, I've been.

Do you have one you're working on now?

I've been waiting and I feel like now is the time to really get started up and getting the itch. So yeah, I'll be working on one that's really about overcoming self doubt because I think doubt is the killer of all dreams and when we can learn to have self confidence and belief in ourself even when everyone else doesn't believe us. That's when we have true power. Because I've seen through sports, I don't know if you ever saw this. I used to see some of the most freak athletes on the field and on the court who could do the most unbelievable things but didn't believe in themselves. When game time came around and I was like, give me some of your skill, please. Give me your talent, your athleticism. You're a freak of nature. But for whatever reason, when the, the clock started and there was audience and fans and the pressure was on, they couldn't perform. And I was like, what now? Everything. And you can't perform because they didn't learn how to believe in themselves. And the coaches were like, you're the best. Their teammates were like, you're the best. It didn't matter if the whole world believed in them. If they didn't learn how to believe in themselves, they were never able to do it. On the flip side, the good thing is it doesn't matter if no one believes in you. If you have that inner confidence and belief, you can accomplish what you want. And so I believe doubt is the killer of dreams. And if you want to be able to accomplish your goals, you've got to learn the secret of self belief. So that's something we were working on.

So I'm curious, Vidhi, then when you're around, you're at over a thousand episodes, you've been around some of the most successful, most spiritually woke. I mean, you've been around every type of person you could possibly be around. Do you notice differences in them at points from when you just go out and you're around the average person. I hate seeing that word, average people who can't see me. I'm putting air quotes. But the average person that you're not typically interviewing.

Do I notice differences?

Yeah.

Yes, I notice that. Not that average people don't have this or people that I haven't interviewed don't have this, but I noticed that most of the time the people that are coming on the show are very clear on their mission and their vision. They're very clear. They're not perfect human beings. They make mistakes, but they're very clear on what they want and why they want it. And there's a deeper sense of knowing and a deeper sense of creation from a place of vision, not from a place of I'm not sure what I'm up to in my life, where do I want to go, why am I here? They have a sense of vision for at least that Season of their life. That's number one. And I think if people were just clear on what they wanted and why they wanted it in general, it's not going to get easier. There's going to be challenges you're going to need to overcome, but that takes away a lot of the guesswork. Okay, I want to go there. Then let's figure out how to navigate to get there. But most people don't know where they want to go. That would be number one. Number two is in general. I just believe they have a lot better habits. I don't think they're smarter than average people. I don't think they're better. I think they know how to navigate time, to structure their schedule with habits as the foundation. When we have habits as a foundation, as an athlete, you know this. When you're practicing the same thing over and over before the moment before the game, before the challenge, you fall back down to your level of practice, to your level of habits. The Navy seals talk about this as well. This is what great athletes learn to do when there's pressure on the line. You're not going to automatically rise to something you've never practiced before. You're going to fall or rise to the thing that you've been practicing preventing, building up to this.

You follow your standards.

So the level of habits, the boring stuff day to day, you know, I make my bed in the morning boring. It's not sexy. But I feel like by doing that year after year, it's building a positive habit of clean space, clean mind. It's setting me up to building momentum in the morning. It's getting me going. It's like helping the next step, you know. So they have, in general, I think, a good foundation of positive habits to support them. So when the moment comes, they're more prepared, simple. And I think the third thing that I think a lot of them have, again, not all of them, but I think a lot of them, the theme is they're using their talents, their gifts, their efforts, and whatever it is, sports, business, philosophy, they're using it in the service of trying to inspire or help others in some way. Most of them. And I think that's greatness. When you can figure out what is my vision, where am I going? Then there's going to be different seasons of visions of your life. It's not going to have it all figured out when you're seven. There's going to be different seasons of where am I going? What do I want? What I want this. What am I good at? What am I talented at? What am I not good at? And how can I overcome those insecurities in the process so they become a skill for me? And then how can I go all in on those skills and talents and desires and be helpful to the people around me? For sure. Whether that's on a scalable mass level or just a community or family level. How can I use my skills and talents to be of service, to be useful to anyone around me? Yeah.

That's interesting, man. And to be able to connect with people that so many people that you've connected with on a deep level. The one thing that I've. That I remember from the first time we met when we were in Vegas, is we were at the Tony Robbins event where we were invited to, and it was myself and my girlfriend Lauren, and we were just chatting. And the thing that I love is that you weren't surface level in any sort of way. And you asked a question that literally got everybody to just like, stop and think. And the question was, you turned to me and you said, what's the number one thing that you've learned about yourself from being with her? And I was like, oh, shit. In front of her. I don't even know the pressure's on, but it made me think. And then, same thing with Lauren. He asked her the exact same question. And then Pete Vargas came in, and then he started talking about. He learned the biggest thing over the past year where he started work with Enneagram. And the thing that I love is that you went deep. Not even there was. We could have been surface level the entire night. Right. But you went deep immediately. And I think that there's a lot of people who are afraid to go deep in a lot of ways, not realizing that the true connection when you make with somebody is when you're able to have a conversation that can go deep and not be judged in any sort of way.

Absolutely.

Is that a skill you feel like you've developed over this time of interviewing a lot of people?

Absolutely. Yeah. I think the most fascinating moments come from real conversations, not from, tell me about what you did or what you're up to or something, or who you are. It's about telling me about who you really are and what are your challenges. What have you overcome lately? What are the things you're most excited about? For me, that's what connects people. And so most people aren't willing to ask the questions to get people to open up in that way because they're afraid to be asked the same thing themselves. Usually someone say Well, I don't know. You tell me. You know, if people are afraid, they'll put it back on you. So you've got to be willing to reveal whatever you want to know about someone else. And I, through the practice and art of doing it for the last eight, nine years, now myself, I just become more comfortable revealing anything. Any insecurity, any doubt, any fear I'm willing to talk about because I know talking about it gives me power over it. It doesn't consume me. It doesn't stay inside of me. I get it out, I make it less of a scary thing, and then I can overcome it.

Yeah. Do you think that's the number one thing that you've learned from having the podcast, or do you feel like there's something else that's equal to or above that? What's the number one thing you've learned about yourself from having a podcast? From going on this journey?

That I can do anything. And I think as a kid, I always dreamed of accomplishing big things, but I didn't fully believe in myself. I believed, but I was always insecure about it. And I needed other people's approval and acknowledgement to, like, say I was good enough. Now I don't need other people to acknowledge me. It's nice, sure, it's great. It's good to be seen and acknowledged. But I know I can do anything I want. Not because I'm trying to prove anyone wrong, wrong, not because I'm angry or competing, but because I'm doing it from a place of service. And I think when you do something from service, from love, from inspiration, from helping others, it just makes it that much easier to do anything you want. And it's a lot less pressure. You know, I don't need to. Like, again, if you don't need someone's approval, then you're not feeling the pressure. Am I doing it right? Are they going to like it? Are they going to love me? Are they going to say, it's okay? You did a good job. If you don't need the approval and you're just coming from a place of, I don't care what someone thinks about me as long as it helps one person, I succeeded, and I think that's been a big shift. Whereas in the first couple years of the podcast, I was like, I want to be the best. I remember doing an interview saying, my whole goal in life is to be number one at whatever I do. Like, I want to be the best at anything I do. And now it's like, I want to be My best at anything I do and help as many people as I can. And if that is five people, then it's five people. If it's 20, if it's 20 million, whatever, okay, great. But not being the best, being my best, and that shift of energy is freeing.

So freeing.

Freeing.

I want to do what you do. I want to acknowledge you for, first off, putting this out there and doing what you've done.

Thanks.

It's incredible to watch of what's happened over the past few years, and there's one thing I want to tell you that, that I think is beautiful is we have a lot of mutual friends. And actually, the very first mutual friend I don't even know if you're aware of, you went to college with. She was my manager. Kim Hellshort. I think her name. Kim Pope is her name now.

Kim Pope, right.

She was my manager, and she used to always talk about how. No, she. A company I worked for right before I. As I started the podcast.

Yeah, Kim Pope. She's great.

The one I quit in order to be. Literally, to go to do what I'm doing now.

Wow.

Yeah, she was. But I remember her talking about how great you are. There's so many people that we're mutual friends with. And the one thing that I hear most is that you actually really fucking care about people, like, a lot. And I hear that from everybody. And so, you know, we don't hear what people say behind their backs. But I want you to know that people are saying a lot of really good stuff behind your back that we're connected with.

Thank you.

For sure.

Thank you, man.

And I want to ask you my favorite last question. We're all going to die one day. You know that. So they say that you die twice. The first time is when you stop breathing. Second time, I'm sure you heard, is when the last person says your name. So in between the first death.

Wait, the first one's when you stop breathing.

When you stop breathing. And the last one is the last time someone says your name. So your legacy's gone. After that moment, the last time someone says your name, you don't exist anymore. All of it's gone.

You mean like hundreds of years later? Yeah. Yeah. However long your legacy lasts, let's hope.

It'S hundreds of years. If it lasts 100 years.

Yeah. However long it lasts. Okay.

Between the death and the last time someone says your name, what do you hope people say about you?

They showed up, he went after his dreams, and he cared about everyone in his life that he met along the way.

Is that your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is discovering your unique talents and gifts in the pursuit of your dreams. And in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you.

Hmm. Seems like that's what you're doing.

I'm trying. Every day trying. You're doing well. Thanks, man.

Everybody, Lewis Howes, Definitely recommend listening to school regular Potnas. Thank you for being here, man.

My man.

I appreciate you. Appreciate it, Rob. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.

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