Build a Loyal Podcast Audience With This One Strategy
Rob Greenlee, a 20-year podcasting veteran, argues that building a loyal audience requires balancing your vision with deep knowledge of who listens to you. He covers format choices, rigorous audience research, data-driven tactics like watch-time monitoring, and honest communication through feedback loops.
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Well, welcome tonight. We're going to be discussing how to be audience-centric in your podcast or your online shows. So thank you so much for joining me. And, and my name is Rob Greenlee. And I appreciate you being here tonight and, and joining me on the show. This is a solo episode. I don't have any guests with me tonight, so I'm hoping that this will be a live conversation with, with you who are joining me here. And I appreciate you being here. And, and one of the big things that I'm trying to do with this show is to create conversations and topics that that are really core to kind of being a podcaster and being a content creator now, and to share, you know, my, my 20 years of history in this, this medium and doing a lot of different podcasts and, and trying to bring, um, you know, some of that knowledge and, and share it with others. Um, and I wanted to also say that, uh, today Actually, this week is the 20th anniversary of, of me doing a podcast. And so here, let me pull this up so you can kind of see what my, my website looked like back in like 2004 timeframe. And so I added an RSS feed to a new website that I was, I was creating back then. This is a— this is what I'm showing you is pulling from the the Internet Archive, which is a— it creates a— I can create a screenshot of what my old website used to look like. So that's, that's what I have on the screen here is a, a kind of a screenshot. It's probably hard to, to read here, but, uh, here, let me see if I can go in a little bit tighter on it so you can actually see it. And yeah, so what I posted in here is I, I created an an RSS feed with an MP3 enclosure. And that's what really at the core is what a podcast is. And that's what I created back then. And that's how I got started on this path of being a podcaster. So let me pull this back. And I'm really excited about the path of podcasting that I've seen happen over the years here, and it's grown into being kind of like a, you know, a pretty mature medium. So it's, it's fun to see kind of so many people involved in the medium now. Back in those days when I started back in September 15th of 2004, which is what I was showing you, a screenshot from that, that website back then, uh, podcasting was really And it at that point didn't even have a name. I mean, it wasn't even called podcast back then. It was actually on that very same day that the, the name was given kind of publicly by a person by the name of Danny Gregoire, who probably isn't, isn't familiar to any of you that are watching this, that actually named the podcast for what it is, right? The the RSS enclosure and what we see today in podcasting really came from that. And so anyway, I just wanted to share that and say on the 15th of this month was the 20-year anniversary for me being a podcaster. And as you can see tonight, even this week, I'm continuing to do a podcast and keeping my RSS feeds populated with enclosures. And so it's exciting to, to be here tonight to talk about, you know, how being focused on audience and being very audience-centric really, really matters. And I think it's this balance between what matters for the podcaster, like what matters for me and what I care about and what I want to share, but it also matters what the audience thinks. It also matters what, what, you know, relationship that I have with the audience that is watching this or consuming this content. And I do have a responsibility to all of you and to all the people that have listened to all the podcasts that I've done over many, many years. And I have to say, I haven't continued to do that show that I started back in 2004. I actually podstopped that show back in 2006 and then moved on to, to do other types of podcasts for some of the companies that I've worked for in the past and, and, and have kind of stopped those shows and started new ones. So I've been continuously podcasting, right, creating content myself, posting it into RSS feeds over that entire time span, um, just in a variety of different shows. So you know, and each of those shows kind of had their own relationships with audiences. And, and, you know, I've thought about different formats of content. I've done an interview show before. I've had plenty of co-hosts. I've had guest co-hosts on shows. And those have always added a very interesting dynamic to the experience that the audience has with any of the content that I have. This is, this program is really, and another one that I started is really one of the, the few that I've done over the years that I would consider to be kind of, kind of like a solo cast or a solo podcast where it's, it's primarily just me talking and sharing my insights instead of having a guest. Now this series, Podcast Tips, has had many guests on it. So if you go back and look at the last 39 episodes of this show, you'll see a lot of guests and conversations and things like that that I've had with others that have joined me over the last few episodes. I've, I really wanted to kind of double down on this concept of doing a solo show and try and get better at it and try and kind of share my knowledge where I've basically been really kind of hosting a show and featuring other people's knowledge. And I do a lot of guesting on other people's podcasts too. And I have to think about this same topic of being audience-centric when I go on other people's shows too, and, and trying to be cognizant of those other podcasts that I'm guesting on, what their audience needs are, what's their genre, what is their focus of their show. Each podcaster kind of has their own agenda to what they want to do with their show, and that's part of this tension that I'm, I'm trying to express to you tonight, is it's this balance between what I as a presenter or a host of a show bring to the show. And it's also my understanding of what the audience that is listening or watching this show, what their needs are and what they want from the show. And it's trying to strike a balance between those two. And that comes from processes that you can create in your show around knowing your audience, right? I know myself, but I also am kind of blinded by my knowledge of myself to not see outside of my own interests and my own experience to understand others, right? And how they see things, which can be quite different, right? And I think that's also a reflection of the podcast medium itself is is everybody, every host, every podcast has its own unique kind of profile, right, of what it does well, what its strengths are, what the personalities are that are involved in the podcast. They can be entertaining, they can be informative, they can be very serious and intense, they can be controversial, they can be a lot of different things. There can be a lot of emotion expressed in podcasts, which if your audience is, you know, kind of looking for that, then you can kind of bring that. I think there's a lot of shows today that are very emotional shows, ones that, you know, drive kind of a certain agenda or drive a certain, you know, you could play politics into this too and say, you know, there are sides, right? And people in this industry have catered to, you know, a good example is political sides, right? If you're a Republican or Democrat, there are perspectives that a host should bring to a podcast if you're focused on one or the other of that divide, right? There's expectations that those audiences have that they're going to hear certain things that are centric around each of those sides, right? And that is another aspect of podcasting too that has really kind of grown and developed over the many years too. And so podcasters bring their own bias, they bring their own knowledge, they bring their own kind of projection of life experiences and what they see in the world and try and filter that. And I think Major talk radio hosts have really done an amazing job of this over the years, of being able to host a, like, a 3-hour live radio program where they talk to their audience and they have callers and they have people interacting with them, uh, live on the show. Not unlike what I'm doing here. Um, and, and I'm not necessarily taking callers per se, though it would be fun to do that, and I have done some episodes that had that kind of dynamic to it. Even after I was on the broadcast radio side, where I actually did it live in a radio station and people could call in and talk to me. They were oftentimes just guests that I'd invited to join on the show. But this whole talk radio concept, I think, is another way of appealing to audiences, right? Because you're hearing from your audience and what they're interested in and what they want to talk about. And you're actually doing that. So, you know, knowing your audience is kind of a great place to start here to run through this, this list of things to, to think about. And to understand your audience very deeply is really key, right? You know, trying to understand your audience's psychological profile, their psychographic profile as well, and their demographics helps you get a, get a perspective on it. Now, granted, this show really, I have a pretty good grasp on who I'm trying to appeal with this show, and it's generally content creators or podcasters. So everything I talk about on this show is really centric to that. But that is kind of like the niche. It's not a, It's not a huge niche, right, of people that are interested in creating an online piece of content or a podcast, but it's worthy enough. And it's also a passion that I have and I've had for many, many years to help others create content online. And you have worked for Libsyn and Podbean and Spreaker and other platforms too. To help others kind of do this. And so I do have a new platform that I'm trying to launch here too that's basically a creator community here. So let me pull this up. It's actually on the Schools platform that I'm launching here. It's the Adore Network Podcasts community of sorts, and I'm looking for people to join that community and to have a direct kind of connection with me and to possibly start a podcast. I do have a network that I'm— I have, it's called Adore Podcast Network. It's hosted on Spreaker, and so I can actually host podcasts over there. So, so what I'm starting is this, this this, this community of sorts. It's a free community to, to join, to ask me questions and to have a conversation that I'm trying to build on this, on this platform. And then also to bring in new podcasters that are maybe creating shows that then I can add to the, the Adore Podcast Network, um, because I can add shows on onto that network kind of that I have in, in the Spreaker platform that's part of iHeartRadio and now part of Triton. So, so this is their, their page, and, and I'm just getting it started. So this is the first time that I've, I've announced it. Um, so, so let me hop out of this and I can continue talking about, um, the topic tonight. And so, you know, it's really important for you to to address the aspirations of your audience, the interests, the psychological needs that your audience has too around connection and having a conversation, right? Having a connection that is valuable to your audience. And that is really important. And in many genres, that's probably easier to do, especially if you have a reputation for being someone that that is well connected to a particular industry or genre, whatever, and you're very focused on that and you create environments of which audience can interact with you. So one of the key things to get started with in this concepting is content planning. So, you know, as you think about the kind of content that you're gonna wanna create for your audience, really to be audience-centric, or centric might be a better way of saying it. You need to think about whether or not you want to do live or do you just want to do recorded content. So these are all, and there's no reason why you can't do both, right? Especially if you're an audio or video podcast, you can certainly do it live, take the live recording, put it out as an on-demand recorded show as well. And even, even a live show becomes a recorded show at some point because it's, it's on instant replay on all of the, the live streaming platforms. So, so, and Johnny, thanks for, for writing in and being here tonight. I appreciate you. So, and so as you think about creating live content, that also can be converted into on-demand content too. So But you can create separate content. It could be vertical videos. It could be other short-form content, content that maybe you post on a, on a community, you know, or a paid community platform like a Skoolz or, or others that are out there. Kajabi is another one. And then also kind of extending beyond that around the content planning and research side is to is to look at the competitors out there, other shows that are like yours that are doing similar type of topics that maybe you can learn from, learn what they're doing, analyze what they're doing, and then find a unique kind of angle that's unique, that's different from your competition of sorts. So you can bring kind of unique value that you can position that show to be to cater to the needs of your, your audience that is critical to them in their process. Now, you may find that there are lots of shows that are out there that are doing something very similar to what you want to do, and that, that can present a challenge. But there's also a lot of shows that have been done maybe in the past, or they're archive shows. There's shows that are maybe in the catalog that you come across and you see a lot of them that have a similar kind of topic focus, but maybe they're not producing any new episodes. So, you know, that is an opportunity for you as well to kind of jump in and say, well, I'm willing to produce new episodes, and so that will make me stand out as well because I'm, I'm there actively producing content. And, um, but Kind of market research is also important too. So knowing other podcasts that are out there or other live shows or other shows that are in like, like YouTube or those platforms are important to know about. And, and they're also important to know about too, because you might over a period of time, if they're active shows, you might, if they're derivative or maybe a little less competitive to you, maybe you can establish partnerships with them. To cross-promote or to share your audience with them and they share their audience with you, especially if your shows are complementary to each other. But also, you know, so learning about your genre and who's active in your genre can be used in a variety of different ways to leverage your activities in your own podcast or your own kind of direction, content direction that you want to take your your program. And, but overall kind of market research is also good too, to understand the, the broader market for your, your genre. What are the trends in, in that, that particular genre? Where is the, the experts in the medium or the, the genre talking about what's coming in the future? You know, You have to be a little bit of a futurist to some degree to be successful in podcasting too, because what you want to do is, is come across as someone that's knowledgeable about your genre and knowledgeable about where things are maybe progressing or moving to, right? So you can represent that in your podcast and help people navigate changes that are either happening in that particular topic genre or directions that are happening in the broader market that may have an impact on that particular genre. And I talk a lot about kind of like the trends in content creation and podcasting in a lot of the shows that I do. And because I really keep a close eye on what the trends are, where this medium is going, what people are saying about it. And it comes from a variety of different sources. It comes from newsletters, it comes from talking to people in person at conferences and events. And it's also just reading articles and, and, and seeing what companies are doing and what their employees are saying on like LinkedIn and social media and on, on X and those platforms. And, and you start piecing together, it's kind of like a dot connector kind of a situation where you're, you're always kind of keeping your eye open for what's, what's coming. But there is research that you can gather that's quantitative also, like, that can be like charts around movements that are happening in a particular market as a percentage. And, you know, last year, what was the percentage of adoption of this or activities around that? And chart it over a period of time. And you can see kind of trend lines, right, that are happening around your topic genre, and that'll help you kind of navigate your topics and what you want to cover and, and to drive additional value. You know, you need to be a deep researcher as a podcaster. You need to always be looking at the trends. You need to always be looking at, um, you know, well-known people that are, that are kind of like writing articles and putting out podcasts and making posts on the social platforms and sharing their perception of what's happening. And I think that's an important component of this too, you know, and also in your— so once you've kind of been through that process at the very beginning, you kind of have a starting launchpad and you can start articulating and writing kind of like a mission or a description for what your show is and what its value equation is. I mean, if you can define that in a description, I think that's really key. Now granted, that description is probably gonna change. Very few podcasts that start out in a certain way stay that way long-term. So you have to constantly be willing to evolve and change and adjust. And especially as you get more data-driven, you're gonna plot like in Apple Podcasts where you can plot or watch or on YouTube where audience kind of drops off, right, at different points in the content. And if you understand that and be kind of data-driven, and I think the industry is really moving towards being very data-driven. And understanding your audience and your audience's behavior, I think, is really, really key as you look to the future. And I do think that a lot of the really big podcasters now, whether it be on YouTube or as audio podcasts, they are using as much data as they can get their hands on. And I think that's a critical piece to the puzzle here as we think about trying to make the best decisions, whether it be with artwork or if it's with your descriptions and your, your episode titles and all those kinds of things, and your show name, I think are critical pieces to this whole puzzle is you really should test things and you should research these things to come up with the best guess based on, you know, a variety of choices, right, that you have to go forward with your podcast and present it publicly. And I do think that marketing is really becoming this kind of data-driven automation, and we're seeing that a little bit with even with YouTube. And I think there's a good example of it at YouTube where you can create up to, I think it is like 20 different thumbnails for a particular episode, right? So if you want to promote your podcast with a thumbnail on, on YouTube, you create all these different versions of it and then you upload them to YouTube, and YouTube will actually test them all for you and figure out which one creates the most clicks, right, or the most engagement. And it will kind of rotate these and test them until it finds the best one, right? And so that'll help you. I think more aspects of podcasting are gonna be analyzed by AI. I don't think it's being talked about a lot in the medium. I haven't heard a lot of people talk about AI as a way to refine the content presentation on and have it map to audience interests. Based on their activities and their interactivity with your content and to make suggestions or changes to your content to better align with trying to maximize or optimize the audience or the reach or the watch time, right? And increasingly, watch time or listen time is going to become a bigger and bigger issue in podcasting because really a lot of these platforms are advertising-based type platforms and they all kind of really, really focus on monetization. And one of the key ones that, one of the key aspects that a lot of the advertisers are looking for, what content is engaging audiences, connecting with audience? And building that relationship in this concept of engagement versus downloads as a comparison, right? You know, let's say an advertiser runs an ad at the beginning of the show and this show has a certain amount of audience engagement up to a certain minute point in the program, but maybe the second ad in the show, which would be like a true mid-roll ad, maybe there's a huge drop-off in audience engagement that happens just prior to the second ad insertion. That advertiser's gonna see that potentially in the numbers and kind of see that they, with the current content that you're producing, that second ad placement isn't as valuable as the first one. So like an early, early mid-roll, and I'll talk about the advertising aspect about being able being audience-centric as well a little bit later. And then, so that just is a little tease to where I was talking about, about being data-driven and making decisions in your podcast and what you're doing based on the feedback loops that you have from your content that are being judged based on the audience engagement, right? So And then the, the next aspect of it is you as a creator, uh, it's becoming more and more important for this concept of honesty and vulnerability. Um, you know, I think a way to really stand out and be audience-centric is to really show uncommon honesty and, and resonate with your listeners at a, at a deeper level, right? Foster a strong connection based on, let's say it for what it is, trust, um, and believability. Is what I'm saying something that makes sense to you? Does it, does it resonate with you? Do you feel that what I'm saying is from the heart and what I believe to be honest and true? Those are deep aspects of being a podcast host. It's kind of hard to teach these things. I mean, these are concepts that some people do like their breathing, and then there's other people that really struggle with it because being vulnerable and being entirely honest and transparent with stuff comes with some risk. And I don't know that some people are willing to take those risks, but those kind of risks do align with loyalty, audience loyalty, because they— the audience knows that when they're listening to you, they can, they can trust you. And they understand that, you know, and this applies to me too, I don't have all the answers. To, to all these things. Um, but I do have a perspective on it, and I do have an experience base that has taken me down 20 years of podcasting that has shared with me kind of the, the dynamics. And I've talked to a lot of audience people, and I've talked to a lot of content creators. So I'm, I'm seeing this kind of this magic that can be created somewhere in the middle between the host and the audience, right? That there's touch points that exist inside, uh, that relationship that resonate and that work and that makes sense to people. Um, and sometimes I wonder if doing a solo show like this is the path to most resonate with people I do wonder if conversation, right, because I'm not having a conversation with another person, I'm actually just solo to you sharing my thoughts. And some people maybe think that's somewhat boring, right, because there's not a shared dynamic, there's not kind of like maybe tension between two humans that can be interesting to listen to. And I do wonder about that, and I do think that that there are situations where having a guest in here, especially if that guest has a completely different personality than me and has a completely different experience than, than myself, um, creates a, an interesting kind of magical dynamic between us that creates a better audience experience. And so I'm— I— that's a tug of war that I have, and I do think about that a lot as I think about doing solo shows, because I've spent so much time over the years doing interviews and doing conversations with people on shows. Um, and it's— it, it does have a good dynamic to it. I, I love having a guest. Um, but I, I've always done guests, and what, what I wanted to do was to have, uh, some time where I could develop my skills as being a solo presenter. And, and it looks like Johnny, uh, Bean wrote me and says, I, I do both guest and solo shows, and I like to keep the solo shows shorter. Um, well, I think that's, that's a natural kind of move to do that, uh, Johnny, because I think having conversation means that there's two people talking, two people sharing ideas, and that tends to take longer. I think doing a solo show, you can get through content a lot faster, and so that's why they tend to be shorter. Now granted, you know, is that reason that they're shorter is because you're, you're kind of running out of things to talk about, and maybe you get a little burned out because it, it is challenging to do a solo show mentally, to stay focused, to follow, you know, let's say, an outline, or to stay on topic. It's kind of like what a, you know, a keynoter does at an event or a conference. They have to get up on stage and they have to be engaging, they have to be entertaining, they have to be full of energy, and by the time they're done, depending on how long they're up on stage, they're, they're probably pretty wiped out, right? So that's why I'm always impressed by, um, these big large talk radio hosts that do a live show for, for 3 hours or whatever. Um, and to stay focused like that in a show like this for 3 hours takes some energy. It takes focus. It also takes an ability to share your thoughts and to keep your kind of mental composure. And I think, you know, I think as you think about trying to do— I've been thinking about it too from the standpoint of is there a one-size kind of fits-all strategy for podcasting. And I do kind of wonder, I think, as we move into this new era of audio and video, that I think creating one piece of content and then kind of splitting it up into all these different other formats like short-form vertical videos and the long-form audio as a, as a solo platform, and then also having that go out also as a video on a long-form basis, I think is where, where the industry is moving towards. And I think it's increasingly getting difficult for content creators to manage all that stuff. And that's why we're seeing very successful shows have teams around them. And I think I've talked about this on prior episodes where there are large teams that are being built around very successful shows that are able to kind of outsource to their team various aspects of all this stuff. It's difficult for an individual podcaster, and that's what I am here doing this show. I don't have a team around me. I'm doing everything. I'm managing the, the flow of, of conversation here and, and trying to stay on topic. But I don't think that there is kind of like a one-size-fits-all strategy because I think, you know, there's a lot of variability in genres of content too. So, you know, one strategy for a sports podcaster may not be the best strategy for someone that's talking about how to podcast because the audience, you know, wants to have this fandom concept around teams and stuff around what they do. Where podcasting really is kind of like a, like a, it's kind of like a techniques kind of a thing, or, or how is it, it's like a how-to thing, and it's, it's a little different in its orientation. Um, so, so having personality that, you know, really understands the sport of, of basketball or baseball or football or anything like that, understands at a deeper level about the the talent and the, the coaches and the rules and all this kind of stuff. Um, it's similar to being a coach around podcasting like this program is. Um, but each person is going to have their own kind of way of doing it, and that's what also makes it different. Um, and so Johnny also says in here the solo shows are faster paced. Well, I think that's That's true only, and it's probably more of a feeling than it is in actuality. I think it's probably faster paced if you're a fast talker and you talk really fast and you get through content where when you have an interview or a guest or something like that, you're, you're kind of, you know, asking a question or you're having a conversation and the other person may not be as, as fast as you are in, in talking about stuff. And so it kind of makes the episode longer. So, you know, Johnny also says in here, my metrics say my average viewer watch time is about 20 minutes. Well, actually, Johnny, I would say the, the average watch time of 20 minutes is actually pretty good, Johnny. I think you're doing, doing good. I don't know how— off the top of my head right now, I'm not sure I know how long your, your full episodes are.. But if you're getting the average being 20 minutes, that means that there's a certain amount of people that are listening to much more than 20 minutes, and then some people that are listening to less than 20 minutes. So, which makes sense as well. I do think that audio podcasts tend to be listened to longer than video usually. So, you know, that's one of the advantages of audio over video is that the attention spans tend to be a little bit longer on the audio side, especially if you're catering to an audio experience. I think it can be better. And then, and then Johnny also posts in here, I used to do a 3-hour talk show with other people, and I like doing solo shorter shows more these days. And I can understand that, Johnny. I think it's, it's going to be I think it's easier to do solo shows to some degree because, you know, it takes time to coordinate with other people. It takes time to interact with other people. Uh, it may be more difficult to get to the point of what you're trying to, trying to say and what you're trying to communicate to others. Um, so that, that kind of makes sense. Um, I do like to do very long shows. I mean, I've done, I think I've done a little over 2 hours on this show before, and, and another show that I've occasionally done, or a couple of them actually, where I've gotten close to 3 hours sometimes. So I'm up there pretty close to you on that, that topic of going really, really long. But it's also possible to take that and cut it up into smaller pieces too. Um, and, and so Johnny also, yeah, you almost never know what video will be successful. You can plan stuff, but something that you didn't expect can go off and outperform. So yeah, I mean, I think that's the gamble that you take with creating any content is it's hard to know what's gonna resonate with people sometimes. I mean, I think, I think as we look to the future, I do think that, I think we're gonna have a better idea of what's gonna resonate. I think AI is gonna be able to analyze our data or our shows of sorts and rank them and give them projections on what the AI thinks the connection that this program has based on certain characteristics, right? And what's the popularity of the topic, those kind of things. I don't think we've seen the full deployment of what AI is going to be able to do to help content creators be better creators, you know, and, and I think that those days are coming, you know, and being able to also, like Johnny says here, 20 minutes from 2 hours. So you could do, you could pull out 20 minutes of your 2-hour show and put that out if you want to. So let's say you do a 2-hour live show and you just pull out 20 minutes from that 2-hour live show and that becomes your audio podcast. I think that's, that's an interesting idea too. Or you could create multiple episodes. It depends on how you structure your show, right? How to be kind of audience-centric with that. If you're trying to cater to a certain duration of podcast. Now, granted, I think that could be limiting too, just because the average length of a video that's being consumed or a piece of content that's being consumed doesn't really cover the full spectrum of what your audience might want, right? Because some audience members will probably want more from you and other audience members may, may want less from you. And if you do just kind of like what the average is, you may disappoint everybody. So there's some danger of not reaching the full audience with doing what would be considered to be the average length. Because I'm not sure that that is really catering or audience-centric. I think audience-centric is to produce the content at the length that the content needs to be based on the topic and what you as a content creator want to produce. And, and then the audience has to decide how much— what's the value of that content and how much of it they want to listen to, because they can start and stop. Now granted, a live program is completely different, right? So you can, you can do this live show and people will watch as long as they're going to watch, and then they're going to drop out, and that's just the way it goes. It's It's not like— but they could still come back and continue watching where they left off at a later time. So let's say they have something else going on. So, so I think that there is something to, you know, just continuing to do what, what you would normally do and not try and constrict it to a certain length based on an average. Um, so that's just kind of my my thoughts on it. So I guess, Johnny, you do what, 3 hours on Twitch every night on video gaming? Yeah, I think it's interesting to just go live sometimes. I mean, I think about this a lot with what I'm doing here, and I think we're getting into this next topic that I wanted to cover too around engagement, right? And Um, you know, this concept of doing 3 hours live every night on a topic like video game, um, is, is interesting. You know, I could certainly do that here where you just kind of get in here, and if you've built up a decent audience that is interacting with you, you just basically do the whole show as a conversation with your, with your viewers or your watchers. And that's just what you do. I've seen many, many successful shows that are live and really the whole show is really just that guest or that host interacting with its audience. And it just so happens that that host is an expert in a particular genre area, right, that they can talk to. But that fan base that you have, and that's also being very audience-centric too, right? Is that's very engaging. That's also, you know, Johnny also says, I podcast all my talk shows. I upload them as audio. Yeah, I think that's good, but it sounds like you're doing it live on video on Twitch. So it's, it's an interesting combination between those two, right? So you have the on-demand part, um, and, and this tug of war. So back when I used to do this show on the StreamYard channels, I used to get a lot of audience engagement. I don't get as much being solo as I did on, on the StreamYard channels back when I was— because they've got 100,000 subscribers and, and they have a passionate audience over there that's wanting to learn how to do live shows on the StreamYard platform. So I had a lot of conversations coming through on that. And, and Johnny, I, I appreciate you being here tonight because you're adding another dimension to my program, which is more responsive to its audience, um, and I I certainly appreciate you being here. It says, um, Johnny says in his comments, some people want me to go for hours. And that was what I struggled with on the StreamYard platform, was, um, I, I arbitrarily picked to go like between an hour, an hour and 15 minutes, but the, but the comments and the questions and stuff would continue to flow in, and I felt this kind of this pressure. Well, If the audience is here and they're engaging with me, I should, I continue, right? And, but where do I stop, right? What is too much? Where is the limit here? Do I just keep doing the show until the audience, you know, runs out of steam? Or do I keep doing the show till I run out of steam? So, and that was always the The, the tug of war. And I, I had that same kind of thought too, Johnny, that, um, that by doing— keep continuing to do the show, I was doing what the audience obviously wanted me to do. Um, but I didn't— maybe I, I felt pressure on myself because maybe I didn't want to go that long. So because maybe I was running out of energy. Because that's the other thing, is that in doing a 3-hour show every night is going to build up your stamina for being able to do that kind of thing. And Johnny also writes here, but I have noticed that there's no growth there. So growth in what way? Okay, shorter shows attract new people. Well, that's a, that's a good pitch for creating shorts. Um, in the, you know, the Reels and Shorts platform of your content too. But I agree, people are less willing to commit to a very long show if they don't know the host. They don't— they're not familiar with the content. They're just less willing to watch it. So I think new audiences tend to be the ones that drop off early. Uh, and that's, that's the, that's, that's the other part of it too, is if you want to grow, maybe you do need to focus more on at least making the opportunity for people to get to shorter versions of your show. Um, and that will boost your, your pickup of, of new, new audience members. And that is an interesting strategy as you look to the future for all of you, is to really start thinking about long form and short form and creating a balance there and creating an engagement layer that embraces people's interest in short form content, as well as embraces the more passionate fans or the more passionate audiences that are willing to listen to the long form. And I think that's gonna connect with audiences a lot better. But that also is a big reason why we're seeing teams be created and people are investing in hiring people or VAs or people that are experts in various aspects of helping you produce your show that are able to do that because that takes a lot of work to actually take your show, cut it up, make it available in various places, in various platforms, and in different forms as a funnel of sorts to pick up new audiences. And I do think that the really big shows do a terrific job of doing that, and I think it makes sense to actually do that kind of an approach. Now Johnny also asks, um, um, uh, say, while I, I video game, I play with others, and, and you can hear us chat about other stuff. It's entertainment for some people, right? So you're creating conversations, and if the audience is interacting with each other and interacting with you that creates almost like a dynamic of a meetup or a conference or something like that. You're creating an entertainment and social engagement kind of layer to what you're doing with your show. And that's a very powerful thing. And that's— if you can foster that kind of a relationship with your audience, I think it's really going to help you grow your show. I mean, I've I used to work at Spreaker, which is now owned by iHeart and Triton Digital, and there was a show on there, a couple different shows that I kept my eye on over the years that were live streaming audio. And every episode that they would do would have, um, you know, like 6,000 comments in the comment field. During this live audio program, you know, it was back in— this was quite a while ago, this was like back in 2016, 2015 timeframe. They were getting like 6,000 to 8,000 comments around this podcast. And I know there are live shows today that are live video shows that get that kind of audience engagement. And, and, you know, where there's so many comments that the comment stream on the feed just goes by so fast that you can't even see it, right? Because there's so many people making comments, and a lot of it's kind of silly nonsense, but it, it does, um, kind of get to a point where, you know, you've, you've reached a layer of audience engagement that it's, it's hard for the host to continue kind of interacting with directly. Right? So there is another end of the spectrum. So somewhere in the middle is kind of like what's happening tonight with Johnny Bean, is, you know, he's engaging and he's asking me questions and making comments and things like that, which I, I truly appreciate. And, and others are willing to do this too. And I would be happy to take your thoughts and your comments about your own experiences here, as well as what, what Johnny's doing., and, and to have that kind of audience engagement, I, I really love that. And but to have so many people involved with it, so sometimes it can escalate and get beyond the capacity of the host to do a show plus interact with the audience. And because he, you can't even see all the comments because there's so many of them flying by. So that can happen as well. So, you know, but trying to be as consistent as you can with your interaction, how you respond to comments, like on all the social platforms, like on YouTube. If you can engage in the comments, that creates a much more audience-centric approach to the program. Now, granted, I think some of this stuff is pretty common sense. And yeah, I wanted to mention one other thing about this audience engagement part with Johnny Bean, and he writes in here, I see a lot of the same people in my chats. And I think that's a very interesting clue here, Johnny, that people that connect keep coming back, right? And that's what you want to encourage is people that want to keep coming back, wanting to keep engaging with you because they either enjoy it, they enjoy the host, they enjoy the topic, they feel like they can contribute to the show and participate. And I do think that as we move to the future, as we start thinking about engagement as a key factor in how brands and advertisers and how we as hosts think about the content that I do. I do think that we're moving to a time— it's kind of slow, but I think we're moving to a time where engagement is more valuable than downloads, right? This whole thing of getting paid on a CPM model, that's a cost per thousand downloads, based on downloads, is something that maybe is gonna go away at some point and that we will have a data layer that will give us a better evaluation on our audience based on the engagement that the audience has with the content. And that may be more valuable to the brands because then there's the potential of loyalty there. And so having the same people come back and then having that audience interact with other members of the audience is the next layer. That you really wanna see in your audience is that your audience knows other people that are in your chat or interacting with your program. And that is a powerful connection because then you have a double pull back to the show every week or every day, depending on how often that you produce episodes, because then that viewer or that listener is coming back to connect with you, the show, and also connecting with other people in the listener or viewing community. So they could be developing friendships over there as well. And I think that is an important piece of this. Um, yeah, there— let's say there are always the same ones that are, are there. Whenever I go live. So you've built, Johnny, a certain amount of loyalty with your audience that they're coming back and wanting to engage with you with everything that you're doing, and they're carving out time out of the day. And that's why it's so important. And this is why I do with this show is I, I try and do the show every Thursday that I can at the same time so people know. I know I didn't do a show last week because I was traveling to the West Coast, um, But that's important to have some kind of regularity that they can build into their schedule and they can look forward to it or put it in their schedule or they can engage at a deeper layer. You know, Johnny also writes here, he says, comments are awesome, but it's best to not rely on them, but to be able to run a show like there's no one there. And I did many shows where no one was there. Yeah, so I think you, you do have to strike a balance here. And like what I'm trying to do with your comments here is I'm trying to thread these topics that you're raising in with my, my show outline that I have. And I do have a show outline that I'm trying to cover in this show, um, and, and doing really, you know, his next comment is I do almost daily shows now. So that's when it becomes— once you get to daily, then the audience engagement, I believe, gets even more important because it, it's a challenge to prepare and get ready for topics for a solo show at the level that you need to, to do for a 3-hour show every day, right? That takes a lot of time. Preparation, research, all that stuff. So if you can do just a little bit of preparation and then rely on your audience to provide you context that will help, um, make a more engaging show, then that could be pretty powerful too. So, and it also takes a little bit of the heat off you. So Johnny also writes here, I do live talk shows. And live in real life videos too. I've done a lot of that too with my New Media Show. I do, do that show live on stage at podcasting conferences. So I've had experience with that live on stage kind of, kind of concept, and I, I really like it a lot. I like to present on stage. I like to do panels. I like to moderate panels. And I also like to do live recordings of podcasts. And it's something that I've done for many, many years, and I am— I enjoy doing it. I wish I could do it more. Um, so that's something that I would like to strive for in some capacity at some point. So, um, and then here, let me jump to my next topic. I think we've covered, um, a lot of my outline, but there is a couple more aspects of it too, and, and That is around, you know, building— like we were just talking about— building community and creating a community. Just like I shared with you earlier about the Adore Creator Community, I want to create a community around my passion for podcasting and those that want to connect with me and want to work with me and want to be able to talk with me on a regular basis in this community and maybe connect with me at a deeper level to help create a show. Or a new show, and then I can help with the hosting of it. I can help with the, the tips and tricks and trying to make it, make it as good as possible. And because, I mean, a lot of people do need kind of, you know, some help now and then. I mean, it's going to be your idea, it's going to be your concept, but it needs, you know, occasionally it's good to have someone that you can just bounce things off of. Um, because oftentimes, and I get this way too, oftentimes you can feel like you're, you're a little too close to what you're doing and you can't see it clearly. And not always asking someone else, um, like maybe a family member or whatever, is always a, a good thing to do because sometimes those family members or those friends will tell you what you want to hear. Not what you need to hear. And I've had many, many, many difficult conversations with, you know, friends that are content creators, um, sharing them honest feedback about what they're doing. And, and I'm, I'm sometimes hesitant to, to do that. I think for obvious reasons, depending on how you, how you prioritize your your friendship with that person. Um, you don't want to hurt them, or you don't want to make them feel like they've done something wrong. I don't think anybody wants to do that to their friend or their, you know, significant other is also another thing that can happen, or, you know, a parent or a sibling or anything like that that is trying to do something pushing the envelope of their life experience and trying to extend themselves. But I think each of us has to look at feedback with a little bit of grain of salt and just realize that, you know, either this person has good intentions or good motivations or just has the wrong perception, or maybe what they have to say is probably you know, worth considering. I don't think anyone should take one person's feedback on something and change everything in their show just because they have a different opinion of what you should be doing. I think what you need to do is get a cross-section of feedback, get, get a larger number of people giving you inputs, and then take those inputs, think about them in the context of what your passions are and what you want to do and figure those pieces that are being told to you that maybe are easy to correct or improve and, and go ahead and deploy some of them and just roll them out. I don't know if you can roll them out fast or you can roll them out slow. It just depends on what you think the priorities are. But at the end of the day, this podcast is being produced by and this one is being produced by me, but I do care what the audience thinks. And it is sometimes hard to get feedback about what I'm doing with this show. I could do a survey. I could do a SurveyMonkey survey. There's things that you can do to improve, right? You know, and this takes us into another aspect too of marketing and promotions. Right. There's, in order to really do good marketing, you have to have some research. You have to have some feedback. You have to have some idea of where you're at around your brand, around, you know, what's the podcast art look like? What is your brand messaging? What is your personal brand as the host? And is the artwork compelling? Is it something that is helping grow your show, or do you think that it's, it's not up to the standards that, that you have and you could do something better? Now granted, sometimes, you know, at least with artwork and branding, having, um, a graphic artist or a branding expert take a look at what you're doing and give you feedback on it is a smart thing to do. Now granted, even a branding expert and a graphic artist, they don't always have your vision clearly in mind or understood. So, you know, it's, it's not the panacea. At the end of the day, it's your show, and do what you need to do. Do what you— what makes you feel good about what that show is, you know, run it by your audience too. That's the other thing you can do is, and I've seen many podcasters do this, well, they'll create a, like a LinkedIn post or a Facebook post where they, they know that they have audience members there and they'll run by, you know, 5 or 6 different versions of their podcast cover art, not unlike what YouTube is doing with their thumbnails, right? Where they're basically doing a market research survey of sorts to say, which one of these Actually, I just saw a podcaster do it just— I think it was today or yesterday— that posted like 5 different versions or 4 different versions of a new podcast artwork and asked people to vote on it. So, you know, getting audience feedback on these kind of things is, you know, can help you. But at the end of the day, it's your show, it's your baby, it's your You know, you have to live with it. You have to feel good about it. Because if you do everything based on what everybody else tells you, then at some point down the path, you're not really doing your own vision. So this is the, this is the tug of war with being data-driven, is that if you're so data-driven, then at some point down that data-driven path, maybe you, you come to the realization that I'm not really doing what I want to do, right? So why am I doing it? So you, you start questioning yourself. You start getting into this, um, this choice paradigm where you're being driven by the wishes of others and not being driven by your own wishes. And this is the, this is the tension. So you have to take that feedback, run it through your own individual filter to determine, you know, what makes sense for you. Don't just take raw data and then just deploy it. I know some podcasters are professing that that's the thing to do is just take raw data. I don't care what it looks like as long as it generates the clicks. I'm, I'm cool with it. There is a perspective around that, and if you're, you know, impartial to what you're doing and you all you want to do is do a show that you know that the audience has been maximized on because you're doing everything they want you to do as a collective, right? Then if you're okay with that, then that's— that's— if that's the goal of what you're doing, then that's okay. But if what you're doing is a show that's about your passions and what you love to do and what you want to do, and it's— you need to be doing what you need to do with feedback, not feedback telling you everything that you need to be doing. And that's the balance here. And that gets back to your branding strategy and how you maybe go through the process of trying to improve, right? Or come up with your original ideas about what that show brand looks like and how it's presented and the colors and You know, it's like with this show, you know, I've come up with a couple of different things and I keep evolving it, but it started out with a green background and a green kind of theme and things like that, and I've kept that going. But I'm also evolving the, the artwork to look differently, so I'm trying new things and seeing if that makes a difference. I'll probably go through and I'll update the, the podcast artwork at some point for this show to to reflect kind of more the, the newer branding aspects of the, of the show here that I've been playing with here. But, um, but I think also as you get more sophisticated on the marketing side, you start thinking about acquisition marketing, which is this concept of, of using strategies or buying ads or buying placement promo placements and other podcasts where you're investing in kind of like a, like an advertising and promotion strategy, right? That is very, tends to be very data-driven, very focused on alignment around the type of shows that you're advertising your show against and making sure that there isn't conflicts with that. And then, um, and then of course I have to talk about, um, YouTube, um, and to some degree Spotify Video too, as, as increasingly being seen as a platform to pick up new audience. Increasingly the survey research from Edison and other research companies is showing that YouTube has become known as a significant podcast discovery platform. And a lot of people in the podcast industry are very uncomfortable with this, especially if they're very audio-centric. But I do think that, you know, YouTube is a very powerful platform and Google certainly has a lot of power. If you think about the Google search engine and as we see AI deploy, we'll see what the power of Google is as we move into this AI age and how they're gonna merge AI with the Google search situation out there, which they've been merging them together. I'm not sure that they've merged it to the level that I think most people are gonna expect is gonna happen, YouTube certainly is a powerful content platform that many, many, many, many, many people use to find content. Now, it, it's primarily a video platform, but yet they are taking in audio RSS feeds and then converting them into video files and making them available as kind of pseudo audio experiences that are actually played via video, but increasingly podcasters are seeing their video versions of their full podcasts being consumed on YouTube like this program is. This program is also an audio and video podcast. If you look in the description of this, at the bottom of the description, you'll see links to the audio and video podcast versions of this show. Um, and, and Johnny also confirms my thoughts that, um, that YouTube is really a search engine. Yeah, well, I think we all know what Google does well in that search, right? So, you know, really searching video is really not that much— I mean, it's different, but it's kind of the similar, similar kind of mindset. As what Google's been doing with text for, for a long time. So it's just, you know, AI is the next search engine. So, you know, I think the, the other thing to think about too when it comes to marketing and promotion is what's your process for, for naming your show? You know, I think this is where data is going to be increasingly important in the elements of keywords and names that aren't conflicting with trademarks or with other shows that have already captured those, those names. And it'll be possible, I think, at some point that AI is going to be, you know, smart enough to, to give you versions of optional names for your show based on what the concept of the show is and evaluate and rank the name that you do pick and its viability and its ability to generate engagement. So I think it's an interesting, you know, we're moving into an interesting time when it comes to content creation where AI is going to have an increasing play a hugely impactful role in how we as content creators evaluate our choices, right, and help us make different choices, maybe more optimized choices around the naming and the descriptions and the metadata and the actual content itself. At some point, you know, these platforms are going to evaluate the content too and rank it. I think we're already starting to see some platforms come out with kind of like rankings. You know, there's a platform that I, I've seen here recently that will, will generate a, a score for your show based on, you know, a whole list of, of criteria that's, that's evaluated in your content, in your RSS feed, and your metadata, and your artwork, all this stuff. And it gives you a score back about how, how good it is. It still to date doesn't make recommendations on things that you should change it to, right, or updates that are needed to better reach an audience. But I do think platforms are going to have that ability at some point. And so lastly, I wanted to talk about kind of the audience-centric approach to advertising. And There are alternatives to advertising increasingly, paid content communities, Podcasting 2.0 initiative around Boostagrams and Satoshis and being able to share Satoshis between listeners and content creators and content creators with listeners and just almost like a, it's called value for value is what they call it. But the other end of the spectrum is advertising, which is a fairly significant part of the podcast industry today. And I do think that there needs to be, and we still don't have them, and this is really the concepts that I'm gonna share with you are really focused around this concept of audience-centric approach, right? So there's two ends of the spectrum. So if you came outta radio, you will be used to the concept of, of advertising is really catering to what the advertisers want, right? And then at the other end of the spectrum, especially with podcasting, is strategies that cater to the needs of the audience, right? The looking at audience in the context of advertising versus only looking at the needs of the advertiser. And I think that's the key distinction that I'm going down here, and that's why we need kind of clear guidelines for advertising, you know, mid-rolls, ad breaks. I think as an industry, we need some standards 'cause I do think that we're moving into an era where we are like maybe treading into the water of advertising oversaturation because we don't have kind of like standard limits to how many ads. So as you think about radio, just that contrast that I was telling you about, about radio being advertiser-centric and podcasting being listener-centric as a concept, then ad load becomes the difference between those two, right? So advertisers want generally, you know, are accepting of having more ads in content than podcasts. Content creators are, and audiences are more willing, or I guess less willing, to have heavy ad loads in content. But yet there's pressure on content creators to generate the same amount of revenue in a podcast as the radio industry has done with larger ad loads. And one of the reasons we have— and I need to say this— one of the reasons we have podcasting today is because the over-commercialization of radio. I was on radio back when podcasting started, and that was always, you know, I was a commercial audio program on the radio, and I was looked down upon in the early days back in 2004. As being a radio show that was becoming a podcast because I was over-commercialized at the time. And so, so moving away from advertising was part of this transition. And people considered you a sellout in the early days of podcasting if you had advertising in your show. People were doing it because of the love of the medium. And so one of the things in that I talk about with standards is, is that we need those to preserve the relationship that we have developed over 20 years with audiences and not let the advertisers corrupt that relationship with audiences because there's too much ad load. Now, now recently there's been some pushback even from the advertisers around ad loads. Saying that, well, we're not gonna pay as much on a cost-per-thousand basis for shows that have too much ads in them. So even there's pushback from the advertising side too, because what the advertisers are seeing is if there's too many ads in podcasts, their ROI on individual campaigns or ad placements goes down. Let's say you have an ad spot every 15 minutes, which is recommended. That's like the maximum that's recommended by those that know the podcast space. And a cap of 3 breaks in a 45-minute podcast. Now, granted, each break can have, you know, a 15-second spot and maybe be a 30-second or a 60-second or something like that. But that's like the, the max that you should have. And, and host read ads, those are the ones that are either baked in or pre-recorded and dynamically inserted, or, you know, baked-in host reads, be kept to 2 minutes or less, right? So these are the kind of the, the standards for mid-roll insertions. Now granted, a lot of podcasts will have what's called pre-roll, which means ads right before the content. I've never been a big fan of ads before the content, and the simple reason is it's like a stop sign to the listener, right? The first thing they hear is an ad, not your voice as the host of the show. And so that is a block, right? And also this concept of ad frequency, right? Is another one. There's been studies that have pushed back on this concept. So let's say you have the same advertiser in your show multiple times. Audience will burn out on that. So it's not always the best thing to do to, let's say you have 3 breaks in a 45-minute episode and 2 of the 3 breaks have the same advertiser or the first break at the beginning of the show and then the last break toward the last 15 minutes are the same ad. What they need to be is different advertisers. But some shows will have multiple advertisers in different breaks. And that is also seen as maybe good for the brand, but maybe not so good for the audience. So, so we have to create a balance here, um, and, and create better outcomes for advertisers or the brands and better outcomes for the audience and the podcaster. And these are important characteristics to consider. Um, you know, and that gets back to managing and having standards around ad loads. Because the last thing we want to do, and we're already starting to see big shows load up on advertising, especially at the beginning parts of their shows, have too many ads. And increasingly audiences are telling researchers that they're becoming sensitive to too many ads, right? And they may stop listening to that podcast because it's just, you know, they start listening to it and it's just like one ad after another, after another, and after another. And They have to fast forward maybe. I mean, I've heard some hosts say, you know, fast forward through the first 2 minutes of my show to get past the ads to get to the content. So what they're doing is they're undermining their relationship with their brands, right? Their advertisers, where the revenue is coming in, by telling their audience to not listen. So, you know, you have this tension, um, that is around this commercialism of podcasting. And so this is why there needs to be a standardization and a unification of these concepts around, you know, ad loads, frequency of insertion, having at least 15 minutes between any kind of commercial break. And not having too many ads in one break, right? So like maybe one 30 or 60 and a 15-second as the standard, and then maybe, and then have that duplicated throughout the show. So you have maybe a total of maybe 4 or 3 ads, 3, maybe 4, maybe 5 ads max in a 45-minute episode. And so that also maintains the ROI for the advertiser and also maintains the, the CPM dollar amount on a cost per thousand basis for the podcaster. And hopefully that number remains high. But if we load up too much, then the CPM numbers are the paid per thousand downloads or views of your of your show, of the ads, they're going to pay less. That's just the natural kind of market situation for, for that. So, so anyway, I'm at the end of my, um, my presentation, um, and so let's, let's go ahead and answer a few more questions. I see I have a few more from Johnny. What over here. Um, uh, it says here, I will promote an upcoming event at the top of my live show, and then I will try to get to the content fast. I now have timestamps in, in the description. Okay, so basically what you're enabling is your audience to kind of skip through the the, the ad parts to get to the content, which is going to potentially lower your ROI for your advertisers or your sponsors or those kind of things. But if you're only— if you're promoting an event instead of a brand or a sponsor, then, then you're probably maybe not as concerned about that. But I would put it in your show notes, definitely. But let's see here. Any other comments or questions from Anyone, if you wanted to post, um, post any, uh, any additional comment or question here. And, and if, if not, then, uh, let's wrap up the show. I'm at about 90 minutes of solo, and so thank you so much for, for being here with me tonight. I appreciate it. And it looks like we're, um, looks like I got a new comment here. Johnny writes, I'm mostly promoting myself, so that's good. So kind of like me, I usually do that too. Oh, uh, Daphne wrote me here, um, on here, links to sponsors and show notes aren't obtruse. Yes, um, that's true, that's true. And I think that's, that's a smart thing to do, and you might want to put those same sponsor links in your, your show notes from the standpoint of like on your website and other places as well. So your, your advertisers can get some visibility to, to those advertisers and get whatever offer that they're offering you, um, to offer to them. So I think it's always important to offer that. And then also I would share those probably in your social media too. So if you have a sponsor that's, that's supporting you, you need to get those links out as much as you can so the audience feels like they're, they're getting their, their money's worth for spending it on your program. So Johnny writes, great show. Uh, well, thank you, Johnny, for, for asking all of the great questions and comments tonight. I appreciate you being here and Daphne, thank you so much for joining me. She also writes here, thanks for the stream. I appreciate you being here, and thanks for, for joining me. And, and I'll be back, uh, I believe I'll be back next Thursday with a, with a show. I don't have a, a guest or anything booked yet, but I, I might, I might do something. So, and then it looks like, uh, Johnny writes, um, You're welcome. So thanks, thanks, Johnny. And so I hope you have a wonderful evening, and I appreciate you being here with me. Uh, look in the show notes of this episode, you can find all the links to the audio and video podcasts. So I've done 39 episodes of this show, and so there's a lot of great conversations in there around how to podcast and, and kind of the experiences of others that are podcasters too that I brought on this program that are, that are successful podcasters that can share some insights that can help you be a better podcaster as well. I know I learned a lot, and I continue to learn from all of you, and I continue to learn as well as I research what's going on in the podcast industry and where it's going. And, and I hope you come back and spend some time with me again in a, in a week. Appreciate it. Here's my YouTube channel, and here's how to reach me on email, rob.greenlee@gmail.com. And I'm also on X @RobGreenlee. And I also do a show called The New Media Show. It's live every Wednesday at 3 PM Eastern. And, um, and here's my, my personal website, robgreenlee.com. And this show and all its episodes can be found at podcasttips.blueberry.net. So you can find all of the video and audio via RSS feeds right there on that page. So go, go check that out. So, well, thank you everybody. Thank you for joining me tonight, and I appreciate you being here. And we'll be back again next Thursday at 7 PM Eastern, 4 PM Pacific. With another episode of Podcast Tips, and I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Good night.
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