Challenges of Mainstream Podcast Consumption #563 | New Media Show Live 11/8/23

So, but then last week I was too high, so just waiting on YouTube now. Yeah, I'm all up on my end.

All right.

Todd and Rob in the afternoon.

Hey, afternoon delight with Todd and Rob.

Oh yeah, well, it's Todd, Rob, and Tom today, so, uh, hey everyone, welcome to The New Media Show, and, uh, I'm gonna have a— I think we're gonna have a good one today.

I think so too. It's a very interesting, I think, topic that we're coming into this show with that Tom can offer a little bit of deeper context. And, you know, it has context around, you know, this podcast industry that we all love and have been a part of for so many years, kind of maybe coming together and trying to elevate things a little bit.

So, well, and you probably should get some context, Rob, because many that are tuning in may not have read, uh, either the Sounds Profitable newsletter or Tom's piece on LinkedIn.

Yeah, well, I think the big, big topic here that's been, you know, we've talked about many times on this show, is, is around this concept of the industry coming together and maybe advocating for standards and being, being very positive about the podcasting industry or the podcasting kind of experience out there with non-podcast listeners and trying to grow the overall audience. And Tom Webster is joining us. He's one of the main partners at Sounds Profitable, which is another kind of successful group that's been bringing the podcast industry together. So I think that there's examples out there, you know, Tom is one of them and then there's the Podcast Academy and there's been a few other, like the Podcast Standards Project is another one that's been kind of bubbling out there to some degree that's been aggregating interested parties to come together and work together. And so that's really what the topic of this is. And Tom, thank you so much for, you know, taking a last-minute, you know, kind of invite to come in and join us. So thanks, thanks for that.

Yeah, you're getting jet lag, Tom, today. I just got in from London late last night.

Oh, you did? Yeah, I saw you all dressed up in, uh, in a tuxedo, so I was, I was wondering about that.

Yeah, my wife and I were invited to a, uh, a gala in London, uh, from an organization that she's involved with. So I was just there to be arm candy, basically.

Got it. Okay. So you were a trophy husband of sorts.

It's nice when you can be arm candy. That's kind of cool.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm looking to really slide into more of that in life as I, as I go on, I think.

Well, that's good. So let's just get into the, into the thick of it here a little bit. So Tom, what, what, what was the genesis moment that made you decide Hey, we really need to get our act together and start promoting podcasting.

Well, you know, it's something that I've talked about for years and you guys know this in various shapes and forms. And one of the things that I've written about in the past is how podcasting has never, ever had a mass introduction to the mainstream public. Right. It is still this thing that— and I, you know, and I know this from countless pieces of research that some people think they can't access because they don't have an iPod or an iPhone. Some people think there's nothing out there for them. Some people think that they need to pay to subscribe because of all that subscribe language we used to use, or that there's nothing really better about podcasting than they can get from other media. And, you know, some of those things are true. Some of those things are education. But, you know, as part of, I guess, my effort to be the change I want to see in the world, rather than write another article that says we should do this, which I think I've been clear about my opinion about, I wanted to write something that basically touched on what could we say. Because I think the things that we say about podcasting to the current audience of non-listeners have to be substantially different than the way we talked about podcasting 10 years ago. Because I'll be honest, guys, the group of humans in, let's just say in America, who are going to become fans of the medium, right? Fans of podcasting. I'm looking for 5 new podcasts. I just love podcasts. Like I kind of feel like we've got all of those we're gonna get and we have a huge chance to get people who are fans of shows and maybe they could become fans of the medium, but we have to talk to them differently and that's really what what the focus of my article was about.

You know, one thing I've been thinking about, and I've mentioned on a couple of shows here, and matter of fact, I made a Twitter post this morning before I'd even read your, your post. So it kind of— it's not completely related, but you know, the Twitter posts or X posts or whatever we're calling it these days, um, my take was, and my thinking as of recent, is with the massive amount of machine-created content that's under— where underway, not underwear, underway. We have to remember podcast voices can be that trusted voice and creating original content. So I think as the ecosphere of all this stuff that's going to be just generated, I think there's a message here that people can trust hosts that give them the raw and honest content, but We have to make them understand that it is a place to find that raw and honest content. And there, and again, goes back to the challenge, but what is the angle we use to make people understand that this is a place where you come for original voices?

Yeah, and I come at this really from a general marketing and branding perspective. And I think when we talk about podcasting with people, we're either too general or too specific. We're very specific about a show, right? You should, I, you should check out this podcast for reasons X, Y, and Z. And maybe that connects with people and maybe it doesn't, or we're too general and we'll say, oh, you should try podcasts. They're great. They're interesting. Like people lack the positive vocabulary with any specificity to articulate that very well. So what I was really trying to do was suggest. Just to throw out a bunch of ideas of how to be in the middle of that a little bit and just talk about what friction podcasts can remove from your life, how, you know, what ease it can bring you and to competitively position podcasts against things that people are already consuming because that's the game now with the available audience.

Yeah, it's the target of the current fairly large percentage of the population that is a non-podcast listener today. And I know you've done some research to try and extract why those folks are not listening to podcasts. And it's all those things you just said around their needs are getting filled by other medium, whether it be music or television or movies or YouTube, frankly. You know, and where does podcasting— I mean, how does podcasting need to pitch itself to be able to grow that current percentage of around, I guess, 50 or 60% of the population have listened to a podcast in the last month? Um, that's the challenge, right? And what do we need to do as an industry to start reaching beyond that 50, 60% into what's potential, probably closer to 80%. Possibly, I would think, is the— maybe you start getting up in 80, 90%, and you're pretty much reaching everybody that you could possibly reach. I mean, that's the case with, like, mobile phones or whatever. Um, I think we've reached a little over 90%, and it doesn't appear to be going up anymore. So I don't know if you could talk about that a little bit too, about, you know, um, what, what is the upside?

Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately the upside for podcasting in America, and this will differ in Europe and some other areas of the world, I think, is I would put it in the mid-60%, 65%, 68% that is possible. And that's based on a crap ton of research I've done over, you know, gosh, a 20-plus career in researching spoken word audio in various forms. Some people just don't like spoken word audio, right? Some people are just, or, you know, so there is a cap on it, but we're nowhere near that cap in terms of regular listening. I think if you treat weekly listening as a sign of, you know, being a regular part of your life, we're only halfway there. So there's a long way to go. There are a lot more people to convert. And I know the potential is there because I know you know, ultimately spoken word audio is, uh, is A, it's universal. B, the, what podcasting gives you, the ability to listen to what you want when you want. It's more than just about niche content and technical specs and things like that. That's a behavior. And that's a behavior that I think is universal. And that's something I think we just need to communicate better.

You know, I just wonder, you know, have we ever, or Tom, have you guys or anyone else ever asked that segment that says, nope, I'm not listening? Have we asked them the deep questions on why, why they're not listening?

Yeah, we have. I think it's, yeah, we definitely have. And I think the answer is You know, Todd, why don't you drink RC Cola?

Because I don't like it.

Well, do you know that?

Yeah, because I've tried it before.

You're old enough to know you don't like RC, right? But you also, you're happy with what you have.

That's true, right? We're creatures of habit.

We're creatures of habit. And so you can't position podcasts in that way. You can't say it's like this thing you already get, but better. That's That's a strong claim. You've gotta do something different. You've gotta, you've gotta show that what podcasting gives you, or in my example, what RC Cola gives you is not something better than the cola you're already getting, but something that sits on another ladder entirely that makes your life better or easier in ways that maybe you didn't think about. And again, that's some of the ideas that I threw out in my newsletter article today.

If I go all the way back. And the reason that I was so excited about podcasting besides creating content was I got to feed my brain with exactly what I wanted to feed my brain with. And that's true today on the podcast I listen to. I only listen to the shows that I want and will help me in my day-to-day business, day-to-day life, day-to-day mental state. These are the reasons I listen to podcasts. Now, I think that probably is different from— maybe different from other people because other people have different goals. Maybe they want to be entertained. But, but in the end, it was about my choice. So with YouTube and everything else out there, we got lots of choices. You know, I find myself culling the herd all the time when it comes to other content. It gets boring. It's not engaging me no more. I disconnect from it. I go look for something else. But I'm also curious, so I align it a little bit to if you have an older vehicle and you get in there and you turn the car on and it's, it's on FM 100.3, you know, that is the, that's the station that you drive to work with every morning. You probably don't ever switch it. Whereas when I get in my car now, I'm pissed off when my Bluetooth doesn't connect and I can't listen to my podcast. I sit there and fiddle with it. So Um, so it— I think it— a lot of it is habit, but then again, what is, what is the message? And I think there's a pretty big list.

I do too. And just to go, uh, off of your example, Todd, you know, it— the, the issue with any kind of, um, behavioral change is A, there's two steps to it. There's more than two steps to it, but first you have to knock people off with their default behavior, right? The default behavior is to just get in the car and FM 100 is on, and that's just fine for some people. And I think instead of saying, well, podcasting is better, what if we reframed FM 100? What if we just said, is that all you listen to, or do you find yourself punching 5 or 6 stations every time you go to hit a stop sign or a traffic light because you're not hearing the song you want? Are you tired of 8 to 10 minute commercial breaks? And you just start talking in that way and positioning FM100 as, you know, what if, what if you didn't have to do that? What if you didn't have to switch once on your commute? What if you weren't bombarded with 18 to 20 minute spot loads an hour? Would that be interesting to you? And so when people, when you start to reframe what people's default choices are, then, you know, then you have a chance, I think, about making them more receptive to an alternative.

But at the same time, we have some podcasts out there. They're very popular, hitting an 8.5-minute spot, and they're dropping 2 ads.

That's, that's pretty rare for a podcast. I mean, I, I think most podcasts are, you know, 4 to 6 spots an hour. Some of them may exceed that. I, I think they're wrong to do that. But, you know, commercial broadcast AM/FM radio in this country is, you know, 15 to 18 minutes. Yeah, it's, uh, nobody's sitting through that. Everybody's switching. I've done that research, you know, in an average half-hour commute, somebody with an AM/FM radio in their car switches an average of 22 times.

Wow.

And if you remind people about that, and if it sounds like a lot, but look, you hit a stop sign, you've got 5 preset buttons you go through hoping to find the song you want. Everybody's in spot loads. Those switches can happen really, really quickly. Those are little moments in time where people are not satisfied with their choices.

So how does this shift that we're seeing around people's perceptions of the medium being broader now, especially with the entry of a YouTube, I mean, if we use this term podcast, that's going to be a loaded word that maybe is confused by, by many to not necessarily include RSS in the mix. Um, you know, really any kind of campaign that uses the word podcast, um, is going to need to include some reference to probably video, uh, because increasing numbers of people are perceiving that. I think that the industry thing seems to think that it's all about audio here over the last few years. But Tom, what's your thought on this convergence that's going on in perception by the audience?

You know, we have a study in the field right now, which we're going to debut in December, and all about— it's a really thorough excavation into video. Into how people perceive video podcasts, even like topics and genres are, you know, are there some you consume as audio? Are there some you consume as video? What makes you think it's a podcast? And, you know, from our perspective as insiders, you know, kind of digging in on RSS and technical definitions and things like that, well, it is kind of important, right? It separates us from the animals. You know, as it were, because not every YouTube show is a podcast.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, to me, and I've said this before, if I can listen to something in an airplane, it's a podcast. And without using airplane Wi-Fi, you know, that's always been sort of my definition of a podcast, but it's so messy right now. And it's not like the definitions are changing because what I'm learning in this study that we have in the field is that some people have always thought, many people have always thought podcasts were video and they've always thought that YouTube was a podcast destination. That's not something new. That's maybe something new that we're grappling with, but it's not something new to the listener/viewer.

Well, in the early days of podcasting, there was a huge amount of video off of RSS, you know, it's a huge amount.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, Revision 3 and all the, you know, Twit's still around and things like that. It is a big part of the big medium. But my fear is, and you guys know me, I'm not like, you know, some kind of entrenched traditionalist. I'm where the audience is at all times. But if we don't do a better job defining the benefits of podcasting, not how you get them, but the benefits of podcasting, then it's going to be done for us because I can tell you that What a lot of people think a podcast is, is two dudes with a microphone and an opinion. That's not wrong and it's not right. So what's up? What are we going to offer in place?

Yeah, it's not a complete picture, that's for sure. It's accurate in its own place, in its own genre within the medium. But it— but you're right, it's much more than that now.

One thing that I've done, and again, I, you know, I'm an outlier here being the rebel. But I think we need a bunch of rebels. I think we need a bunch of podcasters in the traditional sense to make sure we're, you know, and again, it doesn't— we don't have to say anything about RSS. Let's just— let's not talk about that. That's for us to kind of understand on the techie side as podcasters. But when we're talking to our audiences, I think what we need to do is remind them that they're following on their favorite podcast app. And if you listen to a podcast that is, or watch a podcast that is on YouTube, you should leave a comment. Tell your listeners to leave a comment. Hey, I'd like to find your show on my favorite podcast app. I can't find it. And it's kind of a reverse psychology thing. If the, if the, if the YouTubers get enough of those requests, maybe they go, oh, so they can come join the party too. Now again, I, I don't know if that— that's going to be onesies-twosies, right? That's not going to change the narrative of what we need to make sure that those that aren't listening start listening. But I think, um, you know, make— just reassuring listeners that, hey, this is How you're getting the content now is, you know, is what this is all about. Take it with you, go, go on an airplane flight like you said, and, you know, consume this wherever you are. Um, and, you know, on the bus, on the train, wherever you may be, and you don't have to worry about having a hard-hitting internet connection to watch some YouTube video. But again, you know, data speeds have changed and you can watch almost anything on the train, so You know, there's that case too. But so I think it's multi-pronged. And I just wish that maybe, you know, we just educate podcasters, hey, let's start educating audiences just a little bit. Make a mention of it here and there, then maybe that will help. But you got to get 50,000 podcasters to do that, to, you know, to reach the audience.

And the one thing I've learned just from, you know, decades of audience work is that the audience is always right.

It's true.

The audience is always correct there. And if, if you think about what we are asking a non-listener to do, you've got a chance to change one behavior. And so maybe that behavior is just try a podcast or carve a little time out of this to make a little more time for that. But if we're trying to communicate two or more behavior changes, like I would like you to try a podcast. In order to do that, I would like you to put YouTube away and try this podcast app.

Yeah, they won't do it.

There's only so many behavior changes you can communicate in one fell swoop. So, I mean, I like the idea of asking podcasters who are making use of YouTube to saying, you know, check us out at our, you know, subscribe to our audio feed as well. And the reverse, as you suggest, is great., but ultimately we have to be where they are and we have to make that work.

Yeah. And also, you know, like you said, Tom, the listeners or the viewers in this case are actually driving the conversation too. And if those listeners or viewers found that show on YouTube and think of it as a podcast, there's not a lot of incentive for them to move over to audio unless they're going to use it in, like you said, in other aspects of their life. And so I think playing up the portability of podcasting is certainly something that's possible too, but increasingly there's no reason why you can't watch a video podcast on your phone too, which is just as plausible too. So I mean, just purely from an audience acquisition standpoint, we shouldn't really care where they're connecting with the content. It It needs to be, if it's perceived as a podcast, you know, the audience is going to dictate what that is. The content creator can wish what they want, all they want, but maybe it's up to the content creator to decide how broad of distribution strategy that they have. And that's, that's what I've been talking about on the show over the last few weeks is really podcasting is a distribution strategy.

It's not necessarily an audience-focused approach, but at the same time, you know, and I'll go back to the early days and it's in, you know, in my book. The magic to me of, of podcasting in those early days, even though we had to do all this, you know, stuff to sync— thank God those days are over— um, is I would walk out of my house with my little portable player, I'd get in my car, and even though I had to plug it in at the time, I continued what I was listening to from home to car to work. To car to home. There was this continuous flow of what I wanted, and it went with me. Now, I don't think people that are in driving their cars are watching YouTube video, but so if we can say—

well, they might in the future, Todd, if cars are driving themselves.

Well, maybe true, but until then, which, you know, we'll see. But the, the, this, this story of How many times have you been at the house? Okay, many of you are not going. Many of you are working from home. I'm still working from an office. You know, I've gotten up in the morning, had my coffee. I got some content on, on the TV that's not a podcast. And I get ready to walk out the door. And guess what? That segment's not over and it's got another 3 minutes. And I sit there another 3 minutes waiting till it finishes before I leave. Because I can't take it with me. So I think a little of the story of the convenience of, hey, the story continues with you. You know, if you're listening in the home, boom, you walk out the door. And if it's long enough, it can continue to the office or catch you on the way back. I think that's something we've missed sharing about that convenience of that continuous content consumption instead of as I'm hitting pause on my television and then turning it off. And then when I get back home tonight, turning it back on and that something is stuck there and I can hit play and then resume. It's not the same. Often I just abandon. So maybe there's some story there too.

Well, I think there's absolutely a convenience story and we haven't talked about I mean, a large portion of non-listeners are radio fans, and we can communicate all we want that, you know, there's a show for you if you like knitting, there's a show for you if you want to hear about cars, but there are a lot of people that just, oh wait, I can listen to my favorite radio show whenever I want to? Oh, it's a very utilitarian definition, but on the flip side of it, there's only so far you can go with that argument because what I would say, Todd, is that if there's a piece of content that you're sticking around in the house an extra 3 minutes for, if you've stayed in the car for an extra 20 minutes in a parking lot— I've done that.

I have. Yeah, me too.

Right? It's 'cause the content was that good. Right. And we need to be steering people who are new to podcasting to content that is that good. Let them discover the other content later. But if people's first introduction to a podcast is a not very good podcast, a podcast that you could actually leave the car or leave the house and not miss, then that leads people to be dismissive of the medium.

You know, it's kind of funny. There's a show that I listen to that I wasn't even sharing the name of it because I thought it was a competitive advantage to know the name of the— to listen to the show. I didn't want competitors listening to it, you know, and, and I wasn't, I wasn't sharing. And I just recently shared it and I'm getting comments like, 'You've been holding out on me,' you know, and a few expletive words, you know. 'Thanks for sharing.' I was like, 'Oh, that, you know, probably shouldn't have shared that one.' But it's— it is that important that we do, you know, that we share that so that all this great content that is out there, some of these really, really good shows, um, that, you know, you want to listen to the second they drop, um, those are the type of shows we want people to be exposed to first. I think you're right.

Yeah. And Todd, I think that brings up a really important point too that also came up in the conversation with Tom or this online earlier today was around the attitude in the medium that has kept the industry from coming together and doing something more outward and forward and positive about the medium itself, trying to find those non-listeners and, and, you know, give them a pitch that can overcome them is the competitive instincts that the industry has had that has kept them from being able to come together to create that type of, you know, environment and situations. So, Tom, I don't know, you want to expand on that a little bit too?

Well, yeah, I mean, here's the thing that the three of us have talked about numerous times in the past about, you know, some kind of organization that promotes podcasting to the outside world. And what I guess I have come to learn over the past couple of years is that no one is coming to save us, right? No one is coming to save us. And so all we can do is do our own bit.

Save ourselves, right?

Yeah. And so, I mean, I think, and no one organization is going to do it all, which is why I think, you know, you have the Podcast Academy, which absolutely serves individual creators, celebrates creation, and educates creators on how to achieve more. And you also have, you know, what we're doing at Sounds Profitable. And I guess what I would suggest is, for at least one aspect of podcasting, the promotion of podcasting as a medium to the advertising world, I've actually built that organization. We've got 150 partners. We have, we've been leading the charge on all kinds of things from standards to organizing on the industry side to get Apple to change iOS 17, how they were, you know, auto-downloading some things, which was certainly a big initiative that, you know, we helped to organize. And on increasing the awareness of podcasting, at least in the advertising and agency space, we're putting our money where our mouth is. We're taking a big swing at South by Southwest. We have written a very large check with a lot of zeros to South by Southwest to have the first official listed podcasting day. It's all going to be on the official South by schedule. And previously you were subject to the whims of the panel picker and scattered here and there. But we have a home for podcasting at South by where people can invite brands. And so, you know, we're, we are, we've, with the help of the broad support that we have, we're kind of acting as if for at least that segment of podcasting. So I think if we're waiting for one umbrella organization to save us all, it's not gonna happen. But I think we can all do our part. And even if there's no industry gut milk effort to do some of the things I wrote about today, I don't care if any one company does those things, it's all gonna help. And if we can get more advertisers to pay attention, which is our goal, that sounds profitable, then it's, it's going to benefit everybody. So, you know, no one's coming to save us. I think there are organizations, whether they look like traditional trade organizations or not, that we can get involved with, that we can throw our support behind. And it's all going to help everybody.

You know, the number— I guess—

go ahead, Rob. Oh, oh, it just raises the question, does this industry— is it going to progress and develop to be an industry that needs to have like the equivalent of an NAB or something like that, the National Association of Broadcasters or something like that, that kind of sits in the middle of it, but also has these groups that are a part of it, right. That are doing things to take care of certain constituent groups that are a part of that industry that have been kind of up to this point have been a little separated and not really seen as supporting kind of like a, on a more public basis. I think we all see, you know, Sounds Profitable, you know, supporting an aspect of podcasting that's needed and then PodNews and then Podcast Movement and the Podcast Academy and things like that. But these groups haven't been there hasn't been any kind of organization that kind of sits in the middle of all these efforts and kind of coalesces the industry. And I guess at some point, if, you know, those functions are going to get served by these different subgroups, and at some point, Tom, I think that it may develop to the point where it's not going to make sense to have a kind of like a central organization. It's going to need to be set up as separate organizations that support different aspects of it. And That can probably be accomplished. That can accomplish a lot of this too. But can we really look at Sounds Profitable to do like what you said, to advocate for listeners when its focus is more around kind of monetization standards, right? Which is an important part of the bigger picture. So it's not really going after audiences per se.

So if you think about this, the— what I deal with from a day-to-day basis is content creators saying, and this is the predominant question, how do I grow my show? So if we can find a way to help— see, in other words, if we think about these folks that are on the sideline not listening, that number one, get them to listen, that will grow growth all the way down the stack. Everyone will see growth with those additional people coming in and listening globally that are on the sidelines, they're not listening. So if you can, if you can design something that there will be long-term tangible benefit for the podcasters, knowing that what we're doing is trying to build awareness about podcasting, to build podcast listening audiences, regardless of the money, just to be able to bring in and bigger the pool of, of listeners. I think that is a, that is something that maybe from a monetization and for a funding standpoint for organization that could potentially bring enough podcasters and podcast companies in to support some sort of an organization that would be, its focus is, is, is growth. And that growth is again, bringing people to listen to podcasts, educate about podcasts, the added value of podcasts, all these things we've been talking about. Um, because in the end, the, the guy that's doing his podcast in his closet, all he's worried about is where's the next 100 or 500 or 1,000 listeners coming from. He wants to build a show. And if we can get that pool, if we grow that pool by 30% or whatever's left, 25%, whatever is left, there will be seen increase. But I think the oftentimes things have been proposed has been full of agendas And that's why, you know, that's why things have not worked real well when it comes to organizations.

You know, I think that's why, Todd, that we are, we are acting as if, yeah. And, and what, you know, what we've been able to do, again, with the help of 150 partners, is, is, is grow the space, like try attempt to grow the monetary value of this. And I will say this, you know, you guys know I have been in this space just about as long as the two of you, right? Yeah. Part is with the individual creator. But here's what I can tell you. The podcasting space is not yet a $2 billion industry. Search in this country is over $100 billion. Linear is almost $70 billion, and nobody watches it over the age of 45. This, this space needs more money in it. And when it gets more money in it, then it can organize, then it can afford to have full-time directors and office staff and all the, all the trappings that so many other trade organizations have. In the meantime, you know, you mentioned things like the RAB, Rob, you know, what are the— the RAB provides. We're trying to provide those.

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what Sounds Profitable is basically doing for podcasting is what the RAB does. I agree with you. Yeah. And that's important too. But the RAB is partnered with an NAB, right? And they work together, um, to further the industry. And that's the part that we're kind of missing here. And, you know, like Todd, you like talking to podcasters. What really, in some degree, what Tom and I are talking about is how do we appeal to non-podcast listeners?

Oh, I know.

How do we reach them? And we can't reach them through podcasts.

I understand that.

Outside of podcasts.

But You're going to need money, right, to be able to do a campaign to reach those folks. So who's going to fund that? You know, so is it—

it's gonna have to come from the industry.

The industry. And if podcasters want the space to grow, they, you know, they need to be in for a penny too. So, you know, I think there's more here, uh, that can be done because there's not an infinite amount of resources right now. Um, you know, and again, it'd be pretty hard to go to a podcaster and say, hey, uh, you know, uh, write, write us a check for $500 a year or $300 a year or $250 or whatever it is, and we're going to help you grow your show. Uh, you know, they have to— they would have to be understandable of the bigger goal. So yeah, you have to kickstart it with companies, of course, but ultimately, what are we going to do? We're trying to bring more people to the space, and if podcasters understand that that's a clear goal where they may only get a percentage of those people that are new or jumping in, again, I think it has to be a, I think it has to be a team effort here.

Well, I think our contribution to that is, you know, there are obviously lots of partner benefits and things like that, but, uh, every piece of content we create, every study that we sponsor and design is A, free to everybody, and B, no registration. We want everybody to use the stuff to help themselves however they can help themselves. And that's, you know, yes, it's companies that are helping us do that and fund that. But if you look at so many other trade organizations, you have to be a member to access any of that stuff. And we've made it a goal to never put even a registration page on obtaining any of that stuff. So, you know, we try to put our money where our mouth is.

So, Tom, do you see then, sounds profitable, having a dual mission here? Are you guys thinking that's the way ahead for you guys, or what, you know, are you guys going to stay focused purely on the bringing the money into the, into the space?

Uh, I think our focus is on, our focus is on growing the space and growing, and I think bringing people into the space is a trailing variable of bringing more space, because more money into the space can bring more press, more advertising, more marketing, more talent, more ideas. And so to me, the money is a means to an end. I once did an internship in business school with one of the large, let's call them finance firms. And I remember expressing some kind of a sentiment to my advisor there about like, Is this it? We're just making money? Uh, and he said, do you like the theater, Tom? And he knew that I did. I said, yeah. He says, when you go to the theater, you— that theater is supported by plaques on the wall from people like me who just go out and make the money. And I love the theater, and that's how it happens. And I love podcasts, and if this is how it happens, then I'm throwing my weight behind it. Then— and Brian and I are throwing all of our resources into it and marshaling all of our partners towards it, because ultimately we need more people in the space, we need more talent in the space. And to do that, we've got to get the money.

There's going to be— I can already hear some people screaming. They're saying, oh, we're just trying to make sure the podcast industrial complex survives. And, well, you know, that's true. The podcast industrial complex has to survive and it has to continue to advance because if we don't, um, what are we going to fall back to, you know? Um, yeah, you got to open RSS, but at the same point, to grow, to grow shows, okay, yeah, I agree, there has to be, you know, a bigger initiative. Um, Yeah, I don't know. I'm just sitting here pondering a little bit. I've been doing a little bit of that last couple of days on a whole bunch of stuff that's come through my, through my desk, through my desktop.

Um, yeah. And I think, you know, a big question that correlates to what Tom was just saying is that, you know, we've been talking about how podcasting is going to reach over, you know, $2 billion in, in revenue for like for the last 5 years, right? It's just sitting kind of, kind of stuck in, you know, in a little bit of a hole on that. Um, it doesn't seem to be reaching the projections and, and I know it's the tough economy and, and companies aren't advertising as much. Um, but I do think that there's a need for this industry to have more resources. And I guess the bigger question is, How do we get there?

Hold the phone, 1701 SATS for Mike Dell. Don't eat me, Tom Webster.

Don't eat me, Tom Webster. Thank you guys for making that wonderful, uh, soundbite for me. We didn't— Yeah, someone submitted it to us, right? It's constant joy for me as a listener.

Right, right, right. But You know, obviously right now, you know, I have many concerns about the entire space, the entire health of the space. We can very clearly see that new creators are pretty flat. You know, I had a board meeting last night with my team and we looked at the, you know, where the, where the green line was and where the red line was. And, you know, and as the green line stays above the red line, you're here every month, you're kind of a— because things are pretty flat. Right now. There's some that are, you know, some companies are growing more than others, that's true. But at the same point, um, there's definitely not as many creators creating content. And, you know, I go back to the, the thought process here that if we don't— again, I go back to growth because that's the thing, that's why people quit. They don't see us, and the shows are good, and they quit because they— and again, there's a whole formula of stuff you have to do, and we can't really, you know, we can't do it all for them. But I think if we do do the piece like you're talking about, Tom, and just bring those non-committed listeners in, then at least then I can say, okay, you, you got to do your part on marketing your show and everything else and creating content engaging You know, maybe we as industry is working real hard to bring those non-listeners in. Then again, then it's up to the content creator to create great content. So in the end, it is, it's all about the content, the good content.

Yeah, so if you think about the past of this medium as we look to where we are today and as we look to the future, I do think that we're going to continue to grow and I do think, you know, Tom, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think that audiences are continuing to get larger overall. And so it isn't like we're losing audiences, but it does feel like that the bigger shows are continuing to grow faster than the smaller shows. So we're seeing this shift to brands and podcasts that are getting larger, right, on the top end of the market. And that will continue to move that direction, which will move us further into the future around revenue. But the question is, how fast is it going to— or how long is it going to take for us to reach $4 billion in overall revenue for the industry? Is it going to take us 5 years or 2 years?

Well, the reason that we could be at $4 billion right now, and here's— no, here's the reason it is. The media buyers are not looking down. They look at this very small, narrow strip of shows and they leave. Well, you know, I know what the number they leave on the table for us every month is. I can, I can almost calc that out across. And I bet you they're leaving. I bet you're leaving at least 2 to 3 billion listens on the table every month. Um, you know, a couple hundred million here, a couple hundred million there, 100 there. You spread that across 25 companies or whatever their host companies, and the people are self-posting, and you know, all that money's being left on the table. So you're not going to get to $4 billion unless the media buyers look down a little deeper. They don't have to look too, too far down. They, you know, but they need to look deeper than they are. And I'm sure they have the budget.

Yeah, and I look, there's a whole, you know, I guess, you know, failure has a thousand fathers, a thousand fathers, and failure is an orphan. But, but also, I think the, the industry itself has to take some bigger swings, you know. I mean, sometimes, frankly, as someone who's been in it a long time, I get a little disappointed about that, that, you know, I would like to see some bigger swings. I would like to see— and it's not even risks. I mean, my entire career has been actually in the risk mitigation business, right? The decision support business. You know, I—

what kind of swings are you talking about, Tom?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, right now it's— there's been a lot of sort of pushing the easy button of let's give Meghan and Harry a show, right? Very good at running a show. Right? They're not particularly good podcasters. So I think we need some big swings of, you know, where there's show development. That's not just let's have somebody you know, interview people, because people don't know that they're going to be good at that. A lot of them aren't, right? I mean, like, Dax Shepard is really, really good. Right?

He's—

he has that thing that Howard Stern has where he's curious and disarming at the same time. And he's exceptional at it. But for every Dax Shepard, there's 99 celebrities that are really crap. So we don't need any more of that, really. We do need celebrity involvement, but let's do something different with them. Let's do something that I think audiences maybe expect more from them. That's something a little bit more familiar that might bring them into the medium, as opposed to, you know, wondering, as I wrote about in my article today, what a Chris Hemsworth podcast would sound like, right? So, you know, I'd like to see bigger swings. I would like to see— and frankly, and this, you know, I just got the edits back on a manuscript for a podcasting book I wrote for my developmental editor. And the whole thesis of it is that there are two things you can master as a podcaster to get better. You can master your craft, Or you can, and you can master the knowledge of your audience. And I would suggest that podcasters spend way too much time on A and almost no time in B. And that's what podcasters need to change. Because when you really put yourself in the shoes of an audience, you start to understand who they are when they're at home, where they are when they're offline. There are so many ways to reach a potential audience offline as opposed to just pressing the easy button, that X or Facebook, when those things don't really convert all of that well. And that involves just understanding an audience and reframing what you're doing from, I'm making the show I want to make, to I am making the show that an audience wants to hear. And I think that's the most helpful advice I can give to any podcaster because we have to level up everything if we're gonna grow this space.

There are people that I am subscribed to on newsletters that I would, I would subscribe to a podcast if they were to do one. I mean, like, in a New York minute. And so you're right, maybe, maybe that is the, you know, if, you know, if we have 4 or 5 people that we know as podcasters that we know that, man, I wish that individual would do a show You know, maybe, maybe it's time not only for companies but for individuals to say, man, I'd love to hear you do a podcast and to get some of those like super rich voices that we follow religiously to, to create content too. So, um, you know, content, you know, when you talk about swinging larger, the instant thing comes to my mind is, okay, let's set up $100,000 or $200,000 or half a million dollar budget and do talent development. And show development. And I'll be honest with you, that's like CBS. And a lot of us don't want to become like CBS because there's massive risk in that, um, massive risk in, you know, Meghan and Harry, you know, absolutely horrible. You know, I probably could have advised them for, uh, for about a cup of coffee that that probably wouldn't have been a good idea to begin with anyway, but You know, sometimes you can't tell smart people anything. So, or supposed smart people, I don't know. I'm just speculating.

What's really interesting about this, Todd, is that this conversation is taking us back to the ideology or the thought process that radio has had for a long time on content development and swinging big. That's what radio— I mean, look at guys like, you know, Rush Limbaugh or look at guys like, you know, Howard Stern, I would classify that as swinging big. So those folks are— that really drove those mediums forward, you know, and this, this medium has a, like a Joe Rogan type of thing. But, you know, some people don't classify him as a podcast anymore because he doesn't, he doesn't do anything with RSS, but That's part of that. Take us— takes us back to the, the other question that we had talked about earlier too, is it's also important how we define what a podcast is now. Is it— does it have to be entirely an RSS ideology? If we think about the audience first, like Tom suggested, that would tell us that, that maybe we need to take a different approach.

Well, again, I've always said I don't care where they listen as long as they listen. So, you know, I've always—

where and how, right?

Yeah. So, but at the same point, I go back to, you know, the emails that I get on a regular basis that people are in a panic because they've been demonetized someplace and, you know, now they're looking for a new home because YouTube took them— took their money away because they said, you know, the wrong word. So I don't know. I think there is a— there's value in making sure people understand that this medium that's open, um, is, is open for a reason. And, and, and the origin story of why it was open, uh, if you think back— and again, I don't want to go sound like an old curmudgeon, but I will— imagine someone having a, a locked vertical 10, just 10 years ago, people would have revolted and said, this is crazy. You're not, you know, you're not, you're not going to put me over there and lock me in. But again, the mentality has changed. So, you know, you have to go where the audience is. And, but again, I think that Tom is right. If you want to grow the podcasting space, you need some true podcasters that can be— you can walk out the door with your mobile device and take them to your car and go to the airport and get on the airplane and, and fly. And that fundamental piece of podcasting still resounds.

So there's something else I want to point out here too, I think, especially for your listeners. I mean, this is a slow build. Yeah, it is.

It is.

There aren't any shortcuts to it. It is a build. You have to have patience. The entire medium has a slow build. It's never— it's never picked up. And, and that means that, you know, A, that podcasters have to have patience as they're building their show, but also podcast companies have to have patience in talent development. And I say all of this because you invoked Rush Limbaugh, and whether you love Rush Limbaugh or hate Rush Limbaugh, here's what I can tell you about Rush Limbaugh. He started in radio in 1971 as Bachelor Jeff on an afternoon show in McKeesport, Pennsylvania. 1971. He had 20 years of failure, another 10 years of And it just kept kicking around until he became the broadcaster that he became. And until he achieved the stratospheric heights that he achieved as a syndicated personality. That took decades. Bachelor Jeff in 1971, like, people don't think about that or remember that. But that's the path. That's the— and that can be a discouraging path when you see your numbers are plateauing. Or even if they're dipping, that can be a discouraging path for, for podcast networks when they see the show isn't gaining traction. But it's never gone quickly.

And, you know, I think I agree with you, Tom. I mean, look at like Marc Maron or Joe Rogan, those guys, you know, or even Adam Carolla. They didn't build huge audiences in their first couple of years of podcasting. It took them, you know, I think both Adam and Joe started in like 2008, 2009 timeframe. It took them a long time to build to what they are today.

In the era of TikTok and Instagram and where people are, you know, many are unsuccessful, but many are— and there's a, you know, fair number of folks that are successful. But again, we don't know how many reels, how many, you know, how much content did they have to produce to actually build a big audience? And is it really a big true brand? Is there true value there? Um, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to tell a content creator. Well, you know, creating podcasts are hard. You know, it's difficult. And if we go back and look at how many shows still exist from day one, we have a pretty, pretty poor track record. There's probably 10 to 15 shows that are left from the beginning of this era and it's only 19 years in.

So, I mean, is that a fair yardstick though? Like how many TV shows come and gone?

Well, if we, if we relate it to, if we read, maybe it's the same way with radio, you know, maybe in radio you have, you know, I think probably radio probably has more shows that more personalities are still here from 20 years ago, but, and maybe it isn't a fair yardstick. Um, but it's telling on the turn rate or on the churn rate. I think again, the, the people that, that continue to chug away— and even me, I've just recently started changing up some of the format of my tech show a little bit, just playing around. Uh, yeah, one change at a time, right? Um, you know, not, not mess them up, you know, don't hurt them too bad on the change, but Um, I'm sure there's some people out there saying, just do your podcast. Well, yes.

Well, that may not be enough just to throw money at it either. I mean, I think that that's— I think what we've seen with the Spotify experience here over the last few years, throwing a bunch of money at something doesn't always bring a return. So you have to be responsible about how you spend your money and where you spend it and have realistic expectations on what the ROI on that's going to be too, and have a long-term view of it. And that's hard to have sometimes when you have shareholders and investors putting pressure on you because they're not seeing a quarterly return on that investment. So that's part of the problem.

As soon as you approach talent though, And it doesn't have to be Hollywood talent. It could be anybody that's doing content, right? It's immediate, though, that they get into— how should I say it? You know what their show's worth, but then you have to negotiate what it's— what, you know, negotiate down. You have to meet in the middle somewhere because they're always going to go real high. So I don't know. I just— I'm scared about doing talent development. It is, uh, it's definitely risky, but the reward could be high too.

At the end of the day, podcasting is a content game. Yeah, go ahead, Tom.

It's a portfolio. It's like any other portfolio, and we can pick apart Spotify, but look, Joe Rogan was worth it, you know. Yeah, that's it. That paid off and it carried the rest of the portfolio, and they've made some adjustments. And, you know, like I said, they at least took some swings and not exactly Harry and Meghan, but a lot of them do.

And they, they don't always work out, right? And that also happens in other, other mediums as well, you know, whether it be music or television or movies or any of that.

So what's your feedback been then so far, Tom? What are people— what's the, what's the, uh, yeah, we need to do this, or, you know, what are, what are you hearing from people?

I think the feedback I've gotten the most on the article today was just how much individual podcasters don't talk about their podcasts very well. Hopefully this reframed it a little bit because again, it's really hard, you know, just as someone who has been in consumer behavior and just talking to people for a long time, people are not very articulate positively. If you read Yelp restaurant reviews, you'll see 50 different specific ways how a restaurant sucked that night. But if it was good, you'll see the same 2 sentences, service is great, food was good. People aren't as specific and articulate in a positive sense. So what I hope the article did and what I've heard from a lot of people was it's given them some ideas on how to frame trying something new And maybe that's something new is that creator's podcast, but sort of framing it against the choices that you have now as opposed to try this additional new thing on top of everything else you're doing. But maybe this could be better for you if you think about what you already have in a different way. And that's the positive feedback I've gotten about it. And that's, you know, I'm always going to write from that kind of mindset. So. You know, we'll see how many times I revisit this in the future.

You know, if we think about discovery, and my famous saying is, you don't have a discovery problem, you've got a Google search problem. But, you know, that's tongue in cheek. The, the real issue is, is you don't have an audience that is sharing that they should be loving, that they should, you know, that if you can get your audience engaged to tell 2 people or 3 people. And then we, you know, we get these 7 degrees of separation. And pretty soon those 3, those new 3 new people that may, and maybe one of them stuck around to listen, or maybe they didn't, maybe all 3 didn't, but they went somewhere else to find something. I think this is truly a big piece of this is to make sure audiences are sharing with friends, family, people that they know of this content that they love. And they'll be our biggest advocates in the end is if you, if we get the podcasting community is to remind our audiences to share this show or their favorite show with another, another friend. There was this interesting dynamic, and it's not completely related, but when we were doing some, uh, cross-promotions from podcasters cross-promoting shows, the biggest, uh, thing, the feedback we got from podcasters, well, if I recommend another show I said, they're gonna— the audience is going to go over there and not come back. And I'm like, well, some of them will, some of them will leave, but in the end, if you get enough people doing cross-promotion, it's a net gain. People will continue to, to listen to more podcasts based upon the recommendation of a friend or listener of the show, and also us recommending other shows. So it's kind of this is this melting pot of sharing. And in the end, what you're really trying to do is fill the pegs in the hole to get listeners to find the show that really fits them, and vice versa. And that all comes around and we, we raise. And if we add this additional piece of every podcaster telling their listeners to make sure, you know, at 100, 1,000, 500, 10,000, 100,000 at a time, to share this show or a show that they love with a friend, we could fix this real quick if everyone really, really did hammer on that.

But yeah, a couple threads I wanted to pick up from that, Todd, because I think that's a fantastic point. Uh, the first thing though, uh, you know, going back to I'm worried if I recommend this other show that I will lose them to that show, that's the same mentality as I'm hearing from people that they don't like I'm running ads and they've stopped listening to the show. You've had those people Right. You never had those people. Your show, you know, they were default listeners. They were not active listeners. You never had them. Um, easy go. But back to what you said, which is a crucial point. Um, as long as word of mouth is the number one reason that people discover podcasts, the number one way that people say that they discover podcasts, then recommendability is key. And there's, there's three aspects to that. Number one, you need to produce a show that is recommendable. You need to produce a show that will not just lose people if you recommend someone else's show because it's good, right? So it has to be recommendable. Two, you have to ask for the order, which is what you just— but also three, we have to give people the language friend to friend that they can use to bring people to the show. It can't just be, oh, it's interesting and fun, I like it. Every— there's a zillion things that are interesting and fun. What's it going to do for them? Why did you make that specific recommendation? What made you think of them for that show? And giving listeners the specific language to say, look, we'd love it if you'd recommend our show. Tell them this, tell them it's the only place you can get blah, blah, blah, or tell them compared to this other thing, it gives them this better. Give them specific language because that's what people really, really lack. So be a recommendable show, ask for the order. And give people the language to do it with. And that's the key to recommendability.

There was— and to that point, you know, I'd been holding out on this podcast I'd been listening to. And, you know, I admit it, because I was selfish and didn't want anybody to listen to it. But it was a show that everyone needs to hear. I mean, businesses, doesn't have— you don't have to be a podcaster or podcast hosting company. So I'll just share here. You have— if you are in business, you need to listen to the Marketing AI Show. You have to. If you're in business and want to stay in business in 3 years, you need to listen to the Marketing AI Show. And what is it? So going back, what is the value? That's the value I get out of that show. It sets me up to think far enough ahead to try to stay ahead of this insanity that's going on with AI. And it's something that is now my number one weekly listen. And, you know, if I can get everyone listening to that, we can change the world. But again, it's— that's the type of recommendation that a podcaster needs to be able to— do you want a listener to endorse you the same way as I just endorsed that show?

Yeah, that's my friend Paul Reitzer's podcast, who's killing it with—

he's killing it.

Yeah, I mean, he's just, he's really at the forefront of all this stuff. And I've known him for a long time back from the, from his PR days at Agency Day. And you know what, I listened to that and I listened to you.

So there. Well, we thank you. But I'm telling you, you know, and it's one of those things when, you know, I told my team the other day, it's just like, Every once in a while, hear something like a 20-minute segment or something, and I don't— I'm not one to dictate training. We're small enough company, you know, and I was like, this is mandatory. We're going to talk about it this Friday. Everyone needs to listen to this first 20 minutes of this show, and, uh, there'll be a quiz afterwards. But I'm just kidding.

But what's the aspect of that show that you think is so recommendable?

It just keeps you up, keeps you up to speed. They're talking about this thing, this, and again, it's about AI, and we're not going to go down that path to talk about AI today, but it keeps me up to date along with their newsletter on what is happening on the AI space.

With new kind of new companies, are they talking about everything, prompts, are they talking about ways to approach using it?

It's basically, it's, is the marketing AI show. It's for people that are in marketing. How it's going to affect them, the things you need to be watching out for. They talk about tools, they talk about advancements. It's all of the above, a little bit of the politics, the whole nine yards. Just give it a listen, you know, and I think you'll be hooked. It'll go on your daily or on your weekly listen list along with our newsletter.

This is a capital opportunity to point out, I guess, what I wrote about today, right? On the one hand, say it's an interesting show, it's about AI, but there's, I think, a deeper human connection you can make. You could say something like, talk to a friend who's a marketer. You're a marketer, right? Do you feel like you're caught up on AI, or do you feel like you're behind? Everybody you talk to is going to feel like you're behind. That's right. No one feels like they have a handle on it. Okay. Do you have time to learn about it? No, I definitely don't have time. I have less time than ever before. Well, here's the one show for 30 minutes a week I would recommend that would catch you up on it.

It's a sell.

Oh, that's a sell.

That's right. That you had to have the pitch.

Feeling to a fear, to a loss, to a feeling that you're falling behind. I know you don't have hours a week to devote to this. Trust me, just do this one thing.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe it'll save our fish, right? Yeah. Because you're, you're, you're appealing to a more human need, which is I feel like I'm lost. I feel like I'm behind on this stuff and I don't have time. Well, podcast is a way to create time, right?

Exactly right. And matter of fact, that's what that team should— maybe every show then needs to learn how to make their pitch. You know, they're in, not necessarily to tell their audience how to pitch, but you can epitomize that in the show. And talk about these values of, you know, thank you for listening because, or, you know, whatever the, whatever the storyline is going to be. Um, yeah, it's true. But again, I had a hard time describing it. Look at, you know, Tom knocked out of the ballpark. So I know what I get out of here.

Can you share a little bit about the format of the show?

Yeah, they talk They cover 3 main topics and, uh, basically stuff that's happened over the past week, the 3 biggest stories. And then they do a rapid fire. They usually come 7 to 10 rapid fire topics, 56, 58 minutes. You're in and you're out. They don't go, they don't go long ever. So, and then whatever they don't cover is in their newsletter. Oh, they could talk for 5 hours every week.

Do you think they should? No.

Why? Because they give me the important nuggets I need to know. And if I need to know the stuff they didn't think was important, I'm on their newsletter and I read the newsletter.

I find it hard to recommend that anybody should go longer, especially if you have an audience that likes what you do. Because, you know, if you have a half-hour show and you want somebody to try it out, then maybe they can find half out. If you have a 2-hour show, you're asking somebody not to listen to 2 or 3 other shows in order to make room for your show. That's a tall order. Start with a small order. Maybe you have other kinds of content for the people who really are into it, a different fee, a subscription, whatever. But you know, you can't, you know, you don't walk into a supermarket and they ask you to eat an entire Pilscher Farms kielbasa. There's somebody standing there with a toothpick and little pieces of it, right? Just get people to try a taste.

And that's why I told my team, 23 minutes, do it on company time. I want— you need to listen to this.

Um, so Todd, is that a pitch for this show becoming a 30-minute show?

I think what we've done over the years, and sometimes we abuse it, is we try to usually cut it if we run out of stuff. We probably could do that more often, but it's rare. So I don't think you have to be You know, like last week we went an hour and 47 minutes. I don't think you need to go— we need to go an hour 30 if we're on to something.

Also, go ahead, go and finish your thoughts.

No, I just say if we, if we run out of stuff to say, we need to— we need— we don't need to waste Tom's time. Tom's going to leave anyway when we start wasting his time. He's going to punch the stop button.

Well, I would say that the number one podcast in the world, uh, regularly goes close to 2 hours.

But the thing is, they're engaging for 2 hours. I, I'll, I listen to a 3-hour show.

Real question then, that's the real question then. How passionate is your audience? And how good is the content over that period of time?

Yeah, I mean, look, Led Zeppelin has 20-minute songs. That doesn't mean you can have 20-minute songs.

You're not.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, look, if it, you know, One thing for you guys to consider is that the, you know, the video version of this show, which is live, which I'm on right now, typically does go 90 minutes and closer to 2 hours. Right. Does the audio version need to do that? Because there's a lot of catch-up you guys do at the beginning, you know, like, you know, and I know chopped up, right? Yeah. Todd, you're famously resistant to editing, but you go, you know, I was also—

do it right. Well, you know, at some point, probably, you know, probably not too long next week. Oh, next week? No, well, I'll just let you do the editing, Rob. You know, they turn it over to you.

Is that what you're gonna do? Okay, you know, see how this works.

But again, you know, if the Marketing AI Show went longer, I would definitely listen long. I, I like what these guys have to say. That's— but it's kind of my bigger point. But at the same point, they're busy people and they're running an active business. And they give you—

you may not have time to actually do it.

They give you the important stuff that really you need to hear. The rest of it is just kind of, oh, that's cool. Oh, interesting. You may not even remember what they said, but I guarantee the 3 articles that they talked about on Tuesday, or at least the first 2, talking about what happened with, um, uh, Oh my God, I'm pulling a brain fart here. The folks over at OpenAI, that was a big piece. And then, you know, the little trick that Elon played on Grok in that 10-minute segment I listened to. And then the rest of it was kind of just stuff. But that first 20 minutes was super, super valuable to me. It took me off the ledge. I felt like I was paddling water. Because the same thing, you feel like you're behind.

You can't derive a rule from that though, because if you're going to derive a rule from that, right, that's— oh, like Paul could go for it. Look, Paul's been working on this for almost 10 years. Yeah, genuine expertise. Yeah. So if you're gonna— if you're gonna derive a rule, if you're going to say, well, your podcast could also be 2 hours, finish the sentence. Yeah, right. You have spent that much time getting genuine expertise. If you have done time developing your craft to be a genuinely entertaining performer. You don't just have an excuse to go 2 hours, you have to earn 2 hours.

And, and by the way, their conference was the best $1,400 I've spent in 20 years.

Yeah. Oh, that's the conference you went to?

Best $1,400. And that, that's saying something. Best $1,400 I spent in 20 years. Yeah, if that isn't an endorsement, nothing is. So again, so I think if we can find ways to have shows like that and others that are, right, are—

and again, taking us back to what Tom was saying, and again, other—

some people are not going to be interested, but it's a hot topic right now. There's no reason that show shouldn't have— and maybe it does there's no reason that show shouldn't have a half million listeners to it.

Um, maybe it does.

It could very potentially could. Um, I don't think so because they talked about their numbers once before, but it's a show that should have a half million listeners of it. It has the potential.

Maybe it will eventually.

So, you know, we all have our little things that we listen to, our must-listens to. So I think as podcasters, we can help kickstart this by not getting— getting over our egos like I did. And really, the reason I was keeping secret about it is I didn't want anybody else to listen. Selfish, wasn't I?

Oh, you were getting in the way of the growth of the podcast medium.

Well, it wasn't about podcast medium, it's just like I know I didn't want, you know, everyone else that listens to the show that competes with me to be listening to it.

Yeah, you want those secrets to use in your business and nobody else have access.

But, you know, and it's, you know, again, it's just one little thing, but I think we have to be able to, to share those nuggets. But, and maybe that's part of the solution. I don't know.

Well, that's what built podcasting originally was podcasters sharing knowledge with other podcasters. You know, I think if I think back to this medium, um, there's a lot of things that I did early on in podcasting that I picked up from tips from other podcasters that had tried different things. I mean, it's all about experimentation and trying different things and listening to others' thoughts and observations, um, from the real world.

You know, it may sound silly, but you know, we're— Buzzsprout just released Podroll. And for those of us that are old, you remember what a blogroll was. And we're going to release it next Monday, Podroll on Blueberry. And really what ultimately will be is we'll have a widget available to put on your website and it'll be in the RSS feed. But ultimately, some company like Sounds Profitable could at some point start pinging Podcast Index and saying, okay, what are the podcasters recommending? Because it's my personal recommendation, that itself could be a building block of shows that podcasters love and trust, could be used as a stepping stone to say, okay, these are the shows that maybe can be used to help build that listening space. Because, you know, I'm only going to put shows on there that I absolutely trust. And, you know, that's primarily for my audience to be able to get access to those. But again, someone that takes that data and, you know, does whatever they do with data, and they can probably over time, they could come up with a list of, you know, of 100 shows that are out there that maybe no one's ever heard of that could be, you know, the ones to help with this building of listening audience and getting those people that you need to convert to convert.

I think increasingly AI could be part of the discovery solution.

Yeah, you know, podcasts are pretty emotional. The AI is great at giving summaries, great at coming up with keywords.

No, but it's also good at suggesting information. Right.

Yeah.

So you do a search for, you know, what, what are the, what's the best podcast on such and such topic? And I may, may be able to help with this.

May. Discovery like that though is, uh, I, I liken that to, you know, podcasting has a discovery problem in that sense, the same way that Delaware does. I know where to find out a map. I just have no reason to go there.

Right.

Uh, and you know, there aren't that many people saying, I want a podcast on this. You gotta go through another door. I think, you know, we have the folks already who are into podcasting and into podcasts. We have to open other doors now for people that aren't looking for a podcast, looking to solve a problem. They're looking to feel something because no one wants to go to Delaware.

It's just like, it's a big, big reason why YouTube has gotten so popular too. Well, people have learned that that's a place to solve problems.

But at the same point, I go back to what do I say about my sponsor on my show? You know, talk to your friends, family members, you know, someone that needs a domain name or a website, make the recommendation because they're the ones that are talking with their friends and their family members. And, you know, I'm getting ready to get— I can think about doing a business. Oh, by the way, I know this guy. He's got some discount codes you can use to save some money. It's the same thing. It's the same model. For podcast recommendation, because we as podcast consumers and listeners of podcasts will know what podcasts will help the people that we know. Because not every— we all have— even we have close friends, they all have different things. But it might be a trigger at Thanksgiving. It's like, oh man, I'm having trouble with XYZ. And if you happen to be in the right place at the right time and be the right person to know, say, oh, I got a podcast for you to listen to. It could be as simple, you know, this is again, this word of mouth thing is, is critical. That's how we're going to build this faster.

That's how it happens. And that means equipping people with the language to do that.

Right.

Saying you're having relatives at Thanksgiving, you know, you're going to talk about this. You got relatives that are confused about this, recommend this show to them, right? That's, that's a specific order.

And you can take their phone and show them how to follow the show. You know, if they got an Android, well then, you know, thanks Google. Um, you'll have to maybe install an app for them or something, but one at a time.

So Tom, what's your suggestion on next steps for the industry to take to accomplish kind of what you laid out in your post today?

I'd say to get a lot sharper about how they promote themselves.

I think right now it's the number one thing.

Yeah. Industry really promotes itself as here's another podcast because we know you like podcasts, right? And they're not, they're not really describing communicate the show well enough, the shows and the reasons to listen and what benefit that show gives you. Because there are far too many assumptions that people are making based upon how they see movies and TV market themselves. Well, we already know what movies are. We already know what to expect from certain actors and certain styles and certain genres. There's too many new elements here that we just have to do a better job of communicating much more sharply This is what this show will give you. This is how it does it better than this thing you're already getting. Does it different than what you're already getting? Be competitive. Step up a little bit and don't just say, here's another podcast because look, most of us that listen to podcasts, the average, you know, people are listening to is 5, 6, 7 a week. You have a better chance of getting someone new than to get those existing people to add podcast number 8. That's a tall order, right? And so you have to frame it against what they already know as opposed to listen to this podcast. Why would I want to listen to a podcast? So ultimately that's what I hope is that people get a lot sharper about thinking about the human on the other end of that message as they're promoting their podcast. Why should anyone care?

So what you're saying is that podcasters that like to say advertise their podcasts, on external media or whatever, that's a different kind of message. So do you also recommend that podcasters speak to their own audiences about those particular aspects of it, or is that going to have that pandering a little bit to the audience, do you think?

If, look, if it's pandering and somebody leaves you for that, again, you never had them in the first place. If you, your success should be something they root for. And there's no reason why you can't give them, as I just did with Todd with the Marketing AI Show, some language they can communicate with other people that helps them succeed. Because if, you know, if your audience likes your show, they're rooting for your success. You know, give them the language they need to help.

Yeah, it's like an elevator pitch of sorts for a startup to some degree. I mean, what's the sales proposition for this show, right?

I think at the bottom line, it doesn't necessarily mean your show. It's a show that you, the podcaster, can recommend another audience to go listen to and why. We have to train by doing. That's right. You know, the— and by the way, 7,500 sats from Metis. He says, enjoying the conversation. The pitch for word of mouth is so important, as is the ask. And he also talks about for value, for value. Again, it's the ask. We have to ask or tell or pitch or sell or whatever word we want to use.

Yeah, it's just where and in what, what way are we doing that that will, you know, build that loyalty and that sharing, right?

Yeah. I mean, if I, if I could just ask one thing of podcasters, I hear, I do hear podcasters say tell a friend about the show? Take it a step further. What are you going to tell? Right? Even, even that language. So it's specific and transferable and transfers the feeling or because we're good, we've gotten as far as we're going to get on features and benefits. It's a show about marketing and AI. Okay, great. What is it going to do for me? How is it going to solve a problem? How's it going to make me feel better? How's it going to my face, give people that extra— don't just tell a friend, tell them this. And that's going to, that's going to transfer that enthusiasm, that advocacy, that evangelism, which is what we need to continue to grow this space, you know, at least linearly, if not more.

And here's something else I'm going to tell you. This is something like this, and I probably haven't ever mentioned this. When I'm doing calls with podcasters, I asked them how many podcasts they're listening to in their same genre. You know what the answer usually is? Zero. Zero. And then I ask, how many podcasts are you listening to yourself? And you will be shocked how few podcasters don't listen to a lot of other podcasts.

Right.

That's a survey question, Tom, is to ask podcasters to honestly tell you how many podcasts that they're actively listening to. I think the number would be shocking to the industry because I don't think a lot of podcasters listen to a lot of other shows.

No. And, you know, this is something that my friend Dan Meisner at Bumper talks about a lot. If you, you know, if you're putting out a show that is a show about the, you know, I'm here in Boston. So let's say you want to do a podcast about the New England Patriots. Are you listening to other shows about the New England Patriots? No. And how do you know that what you're doing is any different or better? It's just that there's an incuriousness to that, that my response to that is you're not earning an audience if you're not aware of what other needs are being filled and how they're being filled so you can do something different. Then again, you're doing the show you want to do, right? It doesn't mean you deserve an audience.

10,000 sats from Mitch. New in Podverse, turbo confetti dopamine boost. No more long waiting for the boost animation. Well, thanks. Thanks for the— thanks for the advertisement, Mitch. PodcastApps.com, you can pick up Podburst.

Well, that, and also, you know, one last to kind of button up this package is that the podcaster needs to have a clear understanding of what their value prop is. And what is a good way for a podcaster to, you know, be, I guess, have a perspective, right? That's accurate. To what the value of their show is so they can, they can pitch it in a way that their audience will say, yeah, that, that makes sense. And that is a pitch that resonates with me, uh, when I think about this show. I mean, that takes a little bit of perspective that the podcaster needs to have about their own show and their— what they bring. Well, this— that's a— as a perspective to other shows in the market, just like you said.

This will come back to a shock Well, maybe it won't come as a shock to you. I ask, it's the first, almost the first question I ask when I get on a call, what is the goal of your show? Right. And oftentimes I get this awkward silence that goes on for about 30 to 40. I could just shut my mouth and I'll wait till they answer. And it tells me that they have not thought about what the goal. So if you don't know what the goal of the show is, how are you creating content to meet that goal? And then how can you Give the pitch. This is what you're going to learn or be able to understand by listening to this show. So it all goes back to those fundamentals. Yeah.

It's all a loop on each other.

It is. You know?

So—

It's not easy to do.

No, it's not. I think we're saying this, but it's not always easy to have, you know, a podcaster gets a little close to what they're doing and it's hard for them to have a realistic view of it that is accurate.

So have we screwed ourselves here in all this? Is this what we've done is we've not— we've just thought so inwardly that we haven't thought about the bigger picture and growing the space? Is this what we've done to ourselves?

I mean, screwed is a strong word because it implies something, you know, anality to it. Uh, but we have in any number of ways been our own worst enemy. We have in any number of ways hindered our own progress.

Right.

Um, and honestly, this goes back to, you know, this is a thing that I think, uh, I have, I've taken flak for saying this, but the name podcasting didn't help us any. That doesn't mean I'm saying change it because we're stuck with it and it is a meaningful distinction and it makes it its own special snowflake. I didn't know it does. Right. You know, um, and I, you know, again, with non-listeners, I'm not, I'm not sure that people understand that, right? Yeah. So, you know, there's any number of ways, you know, that I, I won't say that we've screwed ourselves or shot ourselves in the foot, but we've put up some, you know, we, we've had some, uh, unforced errors.

So, Tom, why do you think the word podcast has been not optimal for for the medium?

Well, a couple of things. I think, first of all, and I, you know, I know this for a fact from some research, is that a lot of non-listeners say, I don't have the app or software to listen to a podcast. Got it. You know, look, it's tied to, it's tied to an anachronism. It's tied to a thing that doesn't even exist anymore.

Right.

I remember getting into an argument with I got into an argument with Rob Greenlee about this. He was pretty strident about it. He was like, you know, and he was saying, well, look, that, you know, nobody knew what Blu-ray was either. Nobody knew what a VCR was. I'm like, yeah, and those aren't around anymore.

Those are words that are no longer used.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. They did work for a while, but formats die, mediums continue. And podcasting sounds like Betamax. In some ways, right? So again, it helped with one aspect of our audience and maybe grew it very quickly then. But, and again, you know, don't withhold your boosts and sats. I'm not saying change your name. I'm just not saying.

I'm just saying. We've been through that too many times now.

Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying it didn't help.

Right. Well, what, What should we have done, do you think, that would have been better, Tom?

Oh, we didn't know what was coming down the pike. How could you make that prediction, Rob?

That's hard to make that prediction, and I'm not a big hindsight person. Uh, I think what we have is wonderful. Uh, I think we have a wonderful, rich tapestry of incredible shows. I delight in listening to podcasts. That's why I quit Edison and joined Sounds Profitable, because it's all I want to do, right? Yeah. So I don't look back that way. And, and, you know, podcasting, uh, you know, the name got us to a point, right? But what got us here is not going to get us there. And so we have to take honest assessments about what's going to get us there.

Well, we are at the end, uh, we've made it to the 90-minute mark, and I'm sure we could continue on this for a while, and I think we'd get in a loop here a little bit.

So yeah, Um, it all loops back in on itself.

Yeah, I think on this one, you know, we've gotten some attention by the listening audience that's been online today. So, and for those of you that listen to the podcast later, I hope you've listened all the way to the end, and I hope that you send Tom your feedback. Send it to Tom.

And, uh, I want to hear it too.

So yeah, you can CC us too, but it's— and he's— well, I'll let him tell his own email address, but it's pretty simple.

But, uh, Tom, how can they reach you over there? Uh, tom@soundsprofitable.com. And of course, everything that we put out in terms of research and content is freely available at soundsprofitable.com. And I hope you at least sign up for our newsletter. That's— we don't sell you anything else. We just, we just try to help the medium. And that's, you know, honestly, that is all I've ever tried to do in my entire career in this space.

Rob Greenlee. You can find me on Twitter @RobGreenlee and I'm at robgreenlee.com as well. So, and if you want to send me an email, you can with your feedback and your thoughts. That's rob.greenlee@gmail.com. I would love to hear from you and, and let's just keep this conversation going on this topic and see how we can move the industry forward in a positive direction and, and, and help suggest ideas on how podcasters can proceed to grow audience. And I think that's something that we all want.

There was a, um, a listener of the show did send us a link to a wild YouTube video. And, um, it's a good friend of the show. She's sent us stuff over the years. And, um, she's an active listener. And I'll just leave it at this. If you want to Google how I automated my daily podcast with AI, and I'll put the link in the show notes to it. Uh, God help us if people do this more. Um, that's, that's all. That's all I'm going to say. Um, it's a new reality. We have an opportunity to stay original, be original, be a trusted voice. Don't do what this dude is doing. Okay. So, um, I'm Todd at blueberry.com and, uh, @GeekNews on Twitter. @geeknews, @geeknews.chat on Mastodon as well. We want to thank everyone that sent in boosts today. I will be— I don't— I think I'll be off the train by the time the show is next week, Rob. So we'll try to do the show from my hotel room in Chicago next Wednesday. So, uh, on the 15th. So there's a bunch of stuff that we didn't even cover today. But Tom, thanks for— thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule and coming on. Yeah, thanks, Tom. And, uh, for everyone else, we'll be back here. I'm— cross fingers, cross next Wednesday. Or if not, maybe Rob will be solo. We'll, we'll let you know one way or the other. But, uh, okay, everyone take care and we'll see you next week here on The New Me Show. Take care. Bye-bye.