Crafting Your Story to Engaging Podcast Shows

What is your podcast storytelling is the theme of the show tonight, and I certainly appreciate you being here, and thanks for joining me. Welcome to Podcast Tips with Rob Greenlee, uh, and this is episode 44 of this series, and I keep charging forward with making new episodes every week and trying to do them live. The theme of this show really, as I lead it in there, is what is a podcast storytelling type of a podcast and really kind of helping you in this episode tonight to help you craft your story and what are some of the real keys to engaging podcasting shows. You know, how do you do that? And grow an audience. And one of the key things is to hook them right at the start. You know, what is my hook? My hook tonight is 10 steps to creating a compelling story in a podcast. So you kind of start off with a premise and then you just continue forward and tell the story one step at a time. You know, ask a provoking a provocative or provoking question or present a surprising fact that will hopefully engage curiosity on the part of the audience. And I think that's really important. And to give you an example, are all podcasters storytellers? And I mean, my comment to that would be generally yes. I think I've said for many years that really the only difference is the duration of the story. And I have not always thought of myself as a storyteller myself. When I do podcasts, I oftentimes spend a lot of time talking about data and facts and details, and, and, but oftentimes my experiences that I share come in some form of a story around my path in being a podcaster and how I think about podcasting. So it's really one of those things that, you know, I've had to learn as well, this concept of being a storyteller. And that is not always an easy thing to do. And I think a lot of people in podcasting, especially over the last 10 years, have really gravitated towards building a career around being a storyteller and taking that craft, honing that craft, and bringing it to whether it be video or audio. And I think it's really an opportunity for many people. It's also created a large number of podcasts out there that have large teams that have very skilled producers and editors and stuff that can really craft a story, not unlike a TV show or a narrative storytelling. True crime is a huge genre in podcasting. So one of the key things that you have to do in order to do this is to introduce a problem, right? The that you're trying to solve. And that's kind of what I did at the top, you know, creating a compelling story in a podcast. You know, clearly outline the core issues and the challenges and emphasize why it matters to the audience. And in this case, why storytelling matters to the audience is because storytelling in its concepting and its deployment can be a very powerful engagement tool And how many podcasters kind of overlook the process of thinking about storytelling when they're crafting their episodes and crafting the content that they're making. Many podcasters, and I include myself in this, have generally thought of themselves as really being kind of really caught up in the tech of podcasting, the lights and the microphones and the audio quality and all these kind of distractions when oftentimes, and you may feel the same thing, when I watch, sometimes I watch some YouTube videos or some podcasts that are just very good at telling a story about their lives or about their experiences. And it is very compelling. It's just, you know, you want to keep listening. And, but the production of it can be very, very rough, right? It can be some guy holding a camera that's walking through, you know, a trail somewhere, and all he's doing is pointing himself, you know, pointing to himself in a selfie type of a webcam and/or a phone or something like that. And he's just telling a story of his life experience and maybe some of the trials and tribulations that he's gone through in his life that many other people can relate to. And can understand and it makes sense. So, you know, building that emotional connection is kind of what I'm leading into here and talking about the next big factor of creating storytelling content is creating that emotional connection, that bond between you and another human being around a story that you can both relate to. And I think that is a very powerful thing to think about. Well, what aspect of what you're going to share in the podcast pulls at the heartstrings, right? What can I share in my life experience, in my struggles, that someone else can connect with at a deep level? And, you know, and one of the things that I'm going through myself is that I spent many years as a corporate executive working for podcasting companies and stuff, and now I'm on my own. Now I'm taking on projects from a variety of different people, but I'm working for myself. I have my, my free time, and I also have responsibilities that are there in front of me all the time. And those are things that I think many of us out there right now are going through right now, where maybe they've been laid off from a career that they've been working for many, many years and, and are going through an adjustment. Going through struggles in their lives with finances and being able to balance the emotional side of not working for someone. Maybe you spent your whole career as an employee. Becoming an independent sole proprietor or a founder of an LLC or something like that can be a very challenging process for some people that haven't been through it before. I'm lucky enough to have been through this process many times. I've started my own companies. I've, I've worked as a contractor. I've, I've owned a restaurant for a while in my early career. I've owned all sorts of different enterprises and operations, and I've started my own company and worked as an employee, corporate employee, for like a Microsoft or a software company like Ellipsen or or PodcastOne or some of these companies, and those are experiences that I have that I can bring to doing my own work out there. It's not without its challenges. I mean, these are big adjustments, but a lot of podcasters really focus on, oftentimes at the beginning especially, with the technical side of podcasting. And they're really focused on what kind of microphone they're getting or what the quality of the camera that they have is, a DSLR, is it a webcam if they're doing video, what's their recording process, what's their hosting platform. But at the end of the day, really, the reason that you're doing a podcast or an online show like this that happens to be on YouTube is because you You're trying to create content that will benefit others and be helpful to others, that others will find helpful and benefiting to their lives and their success. And that is really the, the key. You know, whether or not your content is technical or business-oriented, find a way to invoke some emotion, some connection with your message and your, your content. Establish kind of a story arc of sorts of where, where you are and where you're going. And where I'm trying to go, just to use what I'm doing here tonight as an example, is where I'm trying to do is take you down the, the more intellectual path of how to think about creating maybe a more compelling piece of content that connects with a an individual. One of the taglines that I've recently added to my LinkedIn profile is a focus on human connections in an AI world. And so I think that's— this becomes a very important topic as we look to the future, you know, creating that story arc of saying, well, I'm a human and I want to maintain what my passions are. And if my passions are being a storyteller and a content creator, well, that may or may not be able to be fully satisfied utilizing AI. You know, we may find a time when our creativity gets funneled through AI and that's the pathway to connection with audience, 'cause AI will be able to do it perfectly, right? Where humans are imperfect. And that is one of the unique challenges that all of us have is, is that humans are imperfect. We make mistakes. We don't always make the right decisions. We don't always say the right things. Where AI tends to, it still makes some mistakes, but I think over the arc of time, I think the perception of AI may, and this isn't a guarantee, be more precise, more accurate, more precise, makes less mistakes. And that may be that differentiator between being a human creator and an AI creator. So telling a story arc, to get back to my story arc here, is structuring the episodes with a clear beginning and a clear middle and a clear end. And where am I taking this? I'm taking this to the end where you will have a clear understanding of what the mental process is and your role in creating a story. In your podcast. And I've learned a lot myself about that journey by preparing for this episode because I haven't thought about that a lot too. And I think that's important for all of us to go through and to learn to be better podcasters or better content creators, whether you're doing video or audio, you know. And part of this is kind of building attention, building intrigue, building kind of like anticipation. And then at the end, you kind of satisfy that need that's there by tying it all together and making it something that's beneficial, that somebody can take away from this and have a deeper understanding. And then one of the ways of doing that too is to create some tension. Keep your audience on the edge by gradually revealing details or sharing examples of challenges. This will keep your listeners engaged and interested in knowing what's coming up next. You know, and I think what's coming up next here is a deeper understanding of your audience, of trying to find out about your audience. Making active proactive efforts to clearly have in your mind who your audience is and trying to speak to those people. You know, like I know that I'm speaking generally to podcasters or content creators that want to make online videos and then maybe turn them into a podcast or make just online videos. I mean, it's perfectly fine if you want to make just online videos. And not even get involved in audio podcasting, that's perfectly fine. And some content lends itself to be more video than audio. I tend to make content that is versatile, right, that I want to be able to put out in both ways. So keeping your audience and your listeners engaged and interested is really, really key. It's not always easy to do. You know, I, I struggle to do that with this show. This is— this has been an interview show format in the past, and I've decided to start doing more solo shows because I want to share kind of more of my experience and also, uh, be able to learn from this process too. Do those deep dives into these topics and really peel apart and, and create the outline and create the understanding on my part that I can thus share with you, you know. So knowing your audience is one of the key things. And I know that you're, you're who you are generally out there, and I know through the analytics off of YouTube, um, the type of people that are attracted to this show, the age group, the, the gender, all those kinds of things. And that's helpful to me. Um, I try and not make this show very technical. I try and make it high-level, deeper concepts. And because I think podcasting is an emotional and psychological game, and a lot of people don't think about it like that. There's a lot of emotional challenges that go into being a podcaster, right? Some people are very comfortable being up on stage, doing stuff, presenting to a live audience. Some people like to close their door and be in an office like I am right now, all alone, and speaking into a camera, right, and talking into a microphone. Some people feel comfortable doing that, but it's not for everybody. And also, as part of this process, ask yourself what emotions you want to invoke in others. You know, I want to invoke in you is passion. I want you I want you to understand that just like what I'm attempting to do tonight, and it's up to you whether or not I'm successful at doing this, is that am I inspiring you to create content that you can have passion for and, and have emotion about and caring about and caring about you and caring about your success? And that's what I'm trying to do with my own career now. Not that I haven't done that in the past. I have. Most of my jobs in the past for podcasting companies have been about supporting my content creators, the ones that I'm working with, the ones that are involved in my platform, or the ones that are involved in having an interest in working with me because maybe I connect with that person. Maybe it just makes sense for them to speak to me and work with me. And that's, that's what I'm doing now. Um, I'm, I'm trying to bring my 20 years of experience of being a podcaster and a radio show host to the future, um, content creators. And also, you know, learning along the way, because I don't, I don't have all the answers. All I can do is suggest that there are some places and some things to think about. And in the next one here is very important is identifying critical moments in your story where listeners should feel something profound. And this gets back to the emotional connection that I just talked about. Is there something surprising in there? Is there some empathy in there? Is there some joy in there? Is there even frustration? And I would say being a podcaster really has all those. You're gonna be surprised. You're gonna have empathy for other podcasters. You're gonna have some joy sometimes when you have some wins, right? Your numbers go up or you hear from people in your audience and they wanna connect with you and they wanna talk with you because they really resonate with what you're saying. And those are what's called emotional beats. And those emotional beats will make your story more memorable. And people will remember that. And sometimes it's just as simple as being genuine and real and trying to be the best person that you can. Now, there's a lot of people out there that will say that, you know, being a, being a bad boy is compelling too. And I would say some of the shows that I've done in the past like the Spreaker Live show that I did for many years for the Spreaker platform, I had a co-host that was very, very outspoken and very extreme in his views. And that can be compelling too. And that type of personality attracts a different kind of a listener. You know, my personality is a little bit more laid back. It's more understanding, more considerate of others. And that attracts a certain type of audience too. It's one of the disadvantages of me doing a solo show is that I typically am only going to attract a certain type of personality, where if I have a mix of people up here that can add to that story and that depth of emotion, that there can be a variety of different people that connect with the show because of the the chemistry in between the different personalities. So creating emotion, surprise, empathy, and joy takes some emotion, surprise, and empathy on the part of the host. And hopefully the audience appreciates that. And then also the next element is highlighting personal elements, right? And those personal elements can involve guests. They can involve the host, like, like myself, and kind of humanize and make a connection between that content that you have with your guests and to make it relevant to your audience. Make— take whatever that experience is or that knowledge and then run it through a filter into a story that is told that actually drives that personal element. And this can be focusing on a personal story that demonstrates this. It can be a personal story of challenges. It can be a story of achievement to which your audience can relate to. And, and I think that the, the line you have to walk with this is that, you know, you don't want to go down the path of making your show all about bragging about yourself and talking, talking, you know, like name-dropping and all this kind of stuff too much. Now granted, you know, that would be a different kind of a show, right? That's just my own preferences there of not being a an over-the-top kind of like name-dropping kind of arrogant personality. But there are very successful podcasts out there that are that. That's why the audience is there, is because those people are bombastic, they're extreme, they have extreme views, they bring a certain amount of passion or slash anger, or, you know, bringing up issues around hypocrisy and conflict and corruption and all these things. And this is going on a lot with the political podcast now, is that there's on the left and the right, there's a lot of, you know, bombastic language and topics and things like that. They're accusing people of things, and that can be very engaging content too. And those can be very emotionally laden content creators, and that is part of what I'm talking about tonight. So you have to decide, you know, which type of person that you're going to represent in your podcast. Are you going to be who you really are off mic or off camera, or are you going to be something that conforms to a certain kind of approach that maybe is more socially acceptable to a broader audience? Now, I choose in this program to be a very reasonable person that is trying to share all sides of a particular issue and not take sides beyond taking sides about what may be the right way to think about things. So, and then as you kind of go down this path, you know, what you have to be doing is constantly evaluating and reflecting on what you're doing in your show, whether it be video or audio, whether it be in the field or in a studio or in your home office or just walking along the sidewalk talking. You know, you have to be willing to learn from what you're seeing with your audience and learn from what you're experiencing and what you're feeling inside about what you're doing. Do you feel like you're connecting with people? You know, like I hate to say it, tonight I haven't seen any comments that have come in on this show, and I would love to have seen that so we can have a little deeper conversation about these topics. But in some ways, these are— this topic of storytelling is one that is, I think, can be a little bit of a struggle for people to to really think about, you know. And as you reflect on each episode that you do, um, you know, think about the story you told. Do you have a beginning, you have a middle, and do you have an end to the story? And, and did your audience engage with the narrative? You know, like, I don't know tonight if what I've done here is engaging and people have an interest in, I probably need to do, do something different. I, I was going to play a YouTube video a little bit later here that has another gentleman talking about what, what he likes about a, a particular podcast that is considered a storytelling podcast, but I wanted to mention one kind of final thought as far as on those 10 steps, and that is what's your call to action at the end, right? If you tell a story that has a beginning, middle, and an end, well, what's the end? Is the end that there's some sort of a takeaway, or is the end a challenge that the host, you know, kind of challenges its audience? To tackle or embrace or to maybe make a change? What's the key takeaway that, you know, that you're going to take away from this episode? Is it to really, really think about what you're talking about and who you're speaking to and why you're speaking to them? And is it something that you would be interested in hearing yourself? You know, this is the evolution that I'm going through with this show too, is how do I speak to the audience? And I've been evolving this too, evolving this, this with this program too, and to come up with a, a better approach to, to speaking to the audience. And I'm not sure that it's enough now to just create, um, normal storytelling type podcasts. I'm just not sure that— I think the attention span now, and the attention is so focused on extreme emotions now and invoking extreme emotions, um, that that is what's connecting with people. It's extreme views, extreme projections or pronunciations about what's going to happen in the future. Is there going to be, you know, a nuclear war, or is there going to be strife in the United States? Is there— those are the topics I believe that are resonating right now because those are the things that are top of mind. And I think that that is another takeaway here, is, is the content that you're creating top of mind? I don't know that me talking about creating storytelling podcasts is a top-of-mind topic, but I think it's one of the most critical topics of being a content creator, um, that I think I've only realized is important just the last few years. And that, that's why I, I took this challenge on of doing this episode tonight. But let's, let's go ahead and I'm going to bring up to to the screen here, a video creator. I don't know if he's an audio podcaster or not, but his name is Philip Hum, and he's going to talk about the StoryCorps podcast and what he has experienced with that program and how he thinks that that show is a compelling storytelling podcast. So let's bring that video up to the stage and give a listen to what Philip has to say about this particular popular StoryCorps podcast. So let me click the play button here, and we can hear what Philip is going to say.

Podcast StoryCorps. StoryCorps, I'd say, is a little bit different to the other three that I just Their mission is to record, preserve, and share the stories of all Americans across different backgrounds and beliefs. What they do is they record an interview between two people that know each other. One person asking questions, the other person responding with life experiences, with stories. By now, StoryCorps has recorded, I think, more than 300,000 interviews. Incredible amount. What they do is they pick a few of these highlights from these interviews and put them on their podcast. So whatever you'll find on the podcast, these are the highlights from these 300,000 episodes. Now it's a really cool resource. I'd say overall the quality is slightly, let's say, less polished than on the other podcasts, but overall it's a beautiful resource to just remind us of our shared humanity. And last podcast, Anecdotally Speaking. Anecdotally Speaking is this incredible podcast on business storytelling. Every week the hosts get together and share a short business story. They then discuss what they liked about this story, how it could be improved, but also give us listeners tips on where we could start using that story in our day-to-day. If you're looking for a great resource to build this pool of stories, this podcast is really for you. And what you should do is check out the episode, find the stories that you like, save these stories, practice them, and then use them whenever you see fit in a business situation.

All right, let's go ahead and, uh, pull that down, and we can kind of maybe wrap up the episode tonight and just kind of have a key, key takeaway from what we've learned tonight. And I think one of the things to, to consider is, is that all of us, when we create a podcast, that we, we think about what we need as a host and as a creator, but also think about what the audience needs. Now, granted, I don't know that there's a huge amount of people out there that are really thinking about this topic. And that's okay with me. I want to talk about those topics, and I want to raise the, the most important topics in the medium today and just give people some things to think about, because there are things that I'm thinking about as I'm taking on using new gadgets and technology to, to create podcasts. But, you know, at the end of the day is, you know, why are you doing that? You know, who are you doing it for? And I think that's really the question that you have to answer that is part of this topic tonight of crafting your story to engaging podcast shows, you know, to creating those those podcast episodes that people want to watch. And I'm, I'm going to start making more content outside of the studio here because I, I do think that sitting behind a camera like this and doing it in a, in a studio like this can be a little boring. Now, granted, this podcast, Podcast Tips, is going out as an audio and video podcast, so it's available. The video version is available on Apple Podcasts. You may be surprised to hear that. But it is available over there, and you can get, get to the last 43 episodes of the show, of which many of them were interview programs talking about various topics in the podcast space, which can be very, very helpful. And I'll probably do some more interview episodes of this show, but I did want to run through some really, really important areas of, of what I'm seeing in the evolving content creator landscape right now. You know, I'm not talking as much about monetization and how to market your show and kind of the— but that's not to say that I, I won't attempt to. But, but I do think that talking about kind of elements of podcasting that a lot of people don't really think about at a deep level— all they do is say, well, I want to get a podcast host, I'm going to get a microphone, and I love, you know, surfing or something, and I'm just going to start a podcast about surfing. And that's about as far as they think about it. Um, that may be, um, an approach that worked maybe 10 or 15 years ago, but I'm not sure it works anymore. So, you know, I think it's important for all of us to think at another level. And, and I do think that quality is important. And so if If we can really focus on those elements, and I do think that video is increasingly critical to all of our successes as we look forward. Now, granted, that's not to say you can't be successful as an audio podcast. I do think you can be, but I do think that there's an awful lot of discovery happening in video platforms now, specifically YouTube or YouTube Music. That is having an impact on creators. And so, so my key takeaway tonight is to really, really focus on establishing an arc to your story, finding a hook, introducing the, the problem that you're going to solve, and focus on building an emotional connection You know, because we all want to succeed. We all want to, you know, potentially, I guess, earn a living from doing this and establish a little bit of a story arc. And then kind of bring it home, as they say, after you've created attention based on what your knowledge of the audience is and what they're needing. To hear too. Oftentimes what they're needing to hear isn't necessarily what they want to hear. So, and that's where the opportunity of a little bit of challenge comes in, is that they may not want to hear this. They may want to create the content that they want to create, and they're very bullheaded about it. I know I've been that way. I can relate. I've had this ideology for a long time that Whatever podcast that you're doing should be driven by the host, what the host wants, not so much what the audience wants, because it's hard to know what the audience wants. So that's my takeaway, is trying to find a balance here between that— know your audience, know yourself, know your content, tell a story, and wrap it up with a conclusion and a next step. And that next step would be to think about more than yourself when it comes to creating an online piece of content. And hopefully this was helpful to you. It's a little bit shorter episode than I've normally done with this podcast, but was hoping that this, this show would be kind of like a new chapter for what I'm doing with this program as well. And, and to really encourage you to reflect deeply on what you're doing. Go back and listen. I've known many people for many years that have said, I just don't like my voice. I don't like the way I represent myself in my video, or I don't like to watch what I do. But I think that there's things that you can take away from that and you can improve on once you've seen it. It's like if you have this habit of doing something or you're not doing something the way you'd like to have it done? Are you humanizing it? Are you making it understandable? Are you keeping things simple but yet impactful? I think those are the key things. And most of all, is there an emotional connection here? That's not always easy to create without an extreme attitude. So, well, thank you so much for being with me here tonight. I appreciate you spending time with me in this live program, Podcast Tips with Rob Greenlee, and I'll be back next Thursday evening at 7:00 PM Eastern, 4:00 PM Pacific, for another episode, episode 45 of Podcast Tips, heading towards a 1-year mark. So, you know, the new year is coming and, And I wish you the most luck. And please, if you want to share, let's see here, it looks like I share with me any thoughts that you have. If you want to send me an email, you're more than welcome to do that. It's just rob.greenlee@gmail.com, or I can be found on X as well, @RobGreenlee. And here's my website, robgreenlee.com. And if you want to catch all of the past episodes of this series, um, all in one place. You can go to podcasttips.blueberry— that's B-L-U-B-R-R-Y—.net to catch all the video and audio episodes all in one place. So that, that's the opportunity. It does look like we got a couple of comments in, so let me take a, take a look here. Stephen Carter wrote something here. It says, uh, Okay, let me bring this up. Steven Carter writes, one thought, not everyone wants to earn a living or even monetize. I've been doing audio and video for 10+ years and never had any interest in monetization. I suspect the vast majority of podcasters feel that way. I would say, yeah, I think You're setting yourself up to disappointment if you start creating a show like this one or any podcast with the expectation that you're going to be able to make money from it. I think it's, I think what, what you are best doing is approaching it because you, you want to create content and you want to connect with others first. And if that works and it scales and it has an impact, then yeah, monetization might be an opportunity for you. But I think what we've seen happen over the last few years, and I think it's hurting the industry right now, is people coming into the industry of content creation and podcasting with the expectation of making money from it. And that's great. That's causing a lot of disappointment if it doesn't happen. You know, and Stephen also writes, I don't, I don't care about money. You know, Stephen Carter, I, I mean, most people do care about money, um, so I do think that you're, you're approaching this from an altruistic perspective, and I, I respect that, and I, I totally understand that. I'm not monetizing this podcast either, so it's, it's one of those things that, um, is part of being a content creator these days. It's not always easy. Granted, I do have a monetized channel on YouTube, um, and, and do, do make some money from that, um, and I'm trying to grow that. Um, you know, Stephen also writes, you know, hone your craft and enjoy the ride. I couldn't agree more, Stephen. I've got a 20-year background in podcasting and radio and doing video and those kind of things, and I, I have enjoyed the, the craft and have enjoyed the, the ride. Just like, you know, what I'm doing right now. This is kind of like where I am right now in a place in time. You know, this is, this is the, the newest thing that I've done. This is the latest thing that I've done. And in some ways, I think it's probably some of the best things that I've done is the last few episodes of this podcast tip series. And I do do a couple other shows. I do one called, uh, Behind the Wheel, um, the Spoken Life podcast. And I also do— it's a 12-year-old podcast called The New Media Show. And that's a— that's also a, a weekly program that talks about the podcast space in the industry. And, uh, and I would love to have you tune into that as well. That's, that's a show that I co-host with Todd Cochran, the CEO of Blueberry. And so we've been doing that show for over a decade now, every— most, most every week. And it's an hour and a half program that we do live, um, and it's on Wednesdays usually. I just did an episode yesterday. My co-host Todd Cochran wasn't with me, but I did do, do an episode with a guest co-host So, you know, and that, that'll happen on occasion too. But, but thank you for the comments, Stephen. I appreciate you being here tonight, and, and I will bid you good night, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your evening. If you're on the West Coast, you're just kind of heading into it. If you're on the East Coast, you're, you're kind of well into it. So I'll be back next week with another episode of Podcast Tips with Rob Greenlee, and And that's at 7 PM Eastern on Thursday nights and 4 PM Pacific. So thank you so much and good night.