Podcast Ugly Baby Syndrome | New Media Show Live

It's kind of funny because now Facebook is the one that's lagging. Everything else beats— there we go. All right, we're up. Let me refresh this. Why is that black? Oh, there we go. Todd and Rob in the afternoon. Hey, afternoon delight with Todd and Rob. Oh yeah. Hey Rob, here we are. We're back with the New Media Show. Had to think there for a second which, which one we were, uh, which one we're doing. But, uh, hey, uh, how are you?

I'm doing okay, Todd. It's great to be back on the show again and, and, um, just, you know, trying to move into fall here a little bit in what I'm thinking about and what's coming in the in the next few months. So I'm starting to think more about Podfest and as far as on the conference side. So yeah, that's, that's always a, that's always an interesting event to start thinking about in the context of the fall. But I also know that, or in the winter actually at that point, but, you know, there's other events that are coming up too, like CES and other, you know, the NAB show, which is coming up soon. But I don't think there's going to be a lot of involvement of podcasting at the NAB, uh, in New York this year. But I— it's gonna be interesting.

Yeah, so I am opting not to go to CES this year for the first time in—

wow, okay—

19 years. Uh, be honest with you, I need my head down on the grindstone here. I just don't have the extra time with the Christmas and then coming off and then an extra week and Um, so, uh, I'm, uh, first time I'm going to miss it, so I'm going to let the tech podcast team go on without me. Matter of fact, I was corresponding with the CES rep today, Scott and I were, and basically said I'll see you next, you know, follow-on year. Um, but I, I really need to, uh, head down here. One thing's going on is I think my gate is pumping a little bit. I hear a little bit of pumping action on my compressor. So that's new, not good. I'll be able to deal with it, but you probably can't hear it, but I can hear it in my ear. Just—

I think I can hear a little bit of— it sounds like a little bit of a static sound.

Yeah, and maybe if I back off this thing an inch. Yeah, that's, that's weird. I didn't touch anything, so— but it's— yeah, I can hear a little, a little static. Maybe I'll try to adjust it, but there is a— ah, crap, let me hit this record. Now the other one's recording. Too many buttons to hit right now. I've got, um, my old Mac Pro, um, trash can that I've had for— oh man, 11 years. Yeah, the heat sensor went out in it, and all it wants to do is the fan runs 100% all the time. And sadly, the— that machine was literally 5 feet away from me before. It was 40 feet down the hallway, and it was never an issue. So it just got to the point where it was annoying the living crap out of me. And, um, and there was some software that wouldn't run. I couldn't update because basically it was, it was end of life. You know, you still got some Apple updates But I was having problems with Premiere and other software was basically say, hey, you get this, this chipset is no longer supported, blah, blah, blah. So, um, I got— I guess I got my 11 years of money out of that thing. So I bought an Apple Studio, uh, baseline model. And now here, here, here is where you're going to giggle. When we, uh, encode this show, when I encode this show, it take— it used to take Uh, like 23 minutes or something like that. How long do you think it took to encode this show with that new studio?

You're encoding the video?

Yeah, once I encode the video, uh, from the master down to, um, basically the show output, probably, probably less than 10 minutes. Probably 3.3 minutes and 15 seconds. Down from like, you know, 20 plus. So, um, yeah, from it. So now, you know, I, I don't have upload speed, but I have— I surely have, what do you want to call it, processing speed.

Yeah.

Um, so that's good. And also I made a change here where I'm no longer on a boom mic. I'm— well, I'm on a boom mic, but it's different. It comes in underneath, so it comes in and comes up. So before it was come over and come down. And the reason for that was, is it was— I'd have problems with camera views. So if you can see the camera view, it's better, right?

Okay.

Yeah, better now to come in that way.

So I do see some people flipping that and, and actually having the boom arm be kind of like below, not above.

Yeah, mine would not do that. So basically it comes up, okay, comes off the table has a straight bar that's about 18 inches or so, and then another extension that comes up. It's really slick, and it— be honest with you, it's less intrusive and gets out of the way. That pumping went away. That's weird. Okay, well, I don't think it's there anymore. So anyway, um, whatever was going on solved itself, but I still probably will need to tweak that. But yeah, I think the studio now is 99% in, and I have to remember I got myself a note now There's an up and a down on the screen because last show you were way up there and I was looking way up at you instead of straight at you, right? So it looked like I was looking off into space, you know.

Yeah. So now that's a common, common thing, you know. People have to mount their camera somewhere and it depends on how, how large their monitor is, if it's sitting on top of it or sitting next to it. But I did hear, or I have seen actually is a better way of saying it, new cameras that are being kind of promoted online that, you know, it's almost like they, they have this arm that hangs right down in front of your monitor. So when you are looking directly at the monitor, you're actually looking at the camera, but the, but it's still a webcam.

Yeah.

It's on the top of your monitor. So it has the actual camera lens. Down in the middle of the screen.

Oh, that's smart.

Yeah.

Oh, send me a link to that. So what I do now is behind me— so for those of you that are doing video, you don't care, but for the tech show, what I do is I raise the monitor up. It goes up about literally 16 inches, and then I look through— I can look straight to go over my content that I'm talking about without having to look down at the monitor that's here. That's my problem, is the monitor here is— I'm looking right now is down and the lens is right there. Now everything behind me when I'm doing the show is right at the edge, so it actually looks like I'm looking just a little bit above the, the camera. And so what I, I'm going to actually try for the next show, I'm going to get everything set up And then I'm going to turn this monitor off because I keep going back and forth a little bit. But at some point I'll get myself trained where that any— if by switching screens, you know, I can do a transition that will, you know, anyway, it's just little stupid things like this.

But that, that is, and that's, uh, one advantage of having a, like, a teleprompter. Yeah, I guess actually mount the camera right behind your, your image. It's the same idea as what I was just talking about, about that arm that hangs down in front of your monitor that you actually look directly at when you're doing your content. The problem is it doesn't cover up the screen.

Yeah, but the problem is sometimes I'm reading, um, I'm reading stuff off a web page, so I don't know if the teleprompter usually has bigger letters. So there lies a challenge. But anyway, just some of the stuff that I'm doing here with, with the studio and getting things dialed in and doing things different because guess what I don't have anymore? I don't have a wall behind me. So, so making it— before, the wall was the limiting factor. So now I can kind of move stuff around at will and, and not, uh, I guess for better words, not be as impacted. Um, so from that regard, things are better. And yes, you are— you're wired on Starlink today. So, uh, what I have done is I've got the two cables for the Mac Mini labeled on the switch around the router. So now if things go sideways and, well, whenever the fall happens and leaves go down, I might be able to put you back on the other point-to-point system. But for now, we're both on the streams on Starlink. You're on Starlink. We'll keep our fingers crossed. And I'm at 900 gigabits for a whole month. So I'm just about— I'm— my billing date is today, so I— as long as I don't go over a terabyte today, I'll be under the 1 terabyte window for, for SpaceX. And that's what I was worried.

So yeah, I could see that. But anyway, so you sent me a couple of, uh, yeah, a couple of topics that we might want to cover today, and I thought, you know, a couple of them were intriguing and I wasn't I'm not that familiar with it, but I did do a little bit of research on them. And the first one I think we both promoted pretty heavily was the ugly baby concept in podcasting.

Yeah. And you know what it is, is I really have a handful of things, content and format issues, marketing and promotion, audience engagement, distribution and platforms, monetization and revenue generation, production and technical issues, branding, analytics adaptability, competition and saturation, different external factors, and just being the workload management. And it sounds like, oh, that's a whole bunch of high-level things, but I've really been working on trying to figure out as we talk to content creators and they say, oh, I've got a, an issue with my podcast, I'm like, I'm like, okay, again, number one, what is the goal of your show? And is the content clear and concise to meet that goal? Is it focused to make that goal every single episode? If the goal is to build a big audience? Are you doing heavy engagement? Are you trying, you know, all these things that go along? Is it about building your reputation? Is it a build your funnel? Whatever. I try to get into the deep nitty-gritty and then break it down into these categories. Um, talking about inconsistent quality, irregular posting schedule? What goes along with that? Is your episodes too long where you're not engaging people, you're wasting people's time? There's just so many different elements that could cause a show to stagnate or not grow or move forward, and there's never just a single issue. My easy go-to is go to their website and look at it and say, well, you know, people can't follow or subscribe to your show just by landing on your website. But that's just one of like probably 40 different things a podcaster can do or needs to do. And what I really kind of— what really tied it in was we had this discussion about the Diary of a CEO and Podcast Movement having 60 people on his staff. Well, you and I don't have time We don't, we can't afford, nor are we big enough to have 3 people on staff, let alone 60 people on staff. So, you know, what are things podcasters can do? And so I have these, I call it the ugly baby talk, and that kind of, kind of ties into stats sometimes too. Um, but it's like, are you, are you a real personality, or do you deliver your content like a robot? Are you giving confusing or vague episode titles? You know, it just, it runs the, the gamut. Do you even have— have you even spent 10 minutes on a marketing strategy? Uh, you know, have you found where your tribe hangs out? Uh, how's your visual branding? Is it— are you leveraging guests that you have on it? Just, you know, I got this list that I made And, and usually when you start going through this stuff and talking with content creators, their eyes glaze over and they can only do 3 or 4 of these things. They can't do all of them.

Well, I think that's, that's the bigger thing that I was curious about, this whole title, Ugly Baby, I guess. Um, and I don't I don't think we've been really clear on why that term is used to describe what you're talking about here.

And maybe it's the wrong title, but—

Well, I'm not sure. I mean, I think it has application here. I think to me it points to like a podcaster creating something and being really, really proud of what they created, but not really understanding that externally maybe it doesn't look as good as it, as you think it is. Right.

Right.

And, and I think that's, that's where the analogy really, really works. And it creates an environment where, you know, you as a leader of, of a podcast distribution and hosting platform, Todd, and myself for many years, is having sometimes difficult conversations with podcasters and being able to, you know, I think you dived into a lot of those topics right at the beginning here of how complex this is. And I think that's one of the challenges that we're facing is that the shows that are being very successful, like The Diary of a CEO, really exemplifies the complexity of the, of the medium today. And it's not just about podcasting, it's about creating a media company now. And oftentimes that's kind of how these bigger content creators are starting to think about this type of online content. As mainstream media kind of fades into oblivion, we're kind of replacing people's expectations of really, really high production quality podcasts. And I think a lot of people that are creating podcasts just don't have the experience, the knowledge, the resources to play at the level that is increasingly becoming expected.

And at the same time, I don't want to make people feel like, oh my God, I got to do all this stuff. They're just going to quit.

Well, and I think that's, you know, Todd, I think that explains a lot of what we're seeing. Um, and people are getting frustrated. People are getting feeling like they can't do everything that needs to be done. And it's getting more complicated. I think AI had the promise of making things easier, but I'm not sure in a lot of ways it has quite yet. And because in some ways it maybe has gotten in the way of quality to some degree.

So, so I've adopted something my grandmother told me, my late grandmother told me many, many, many years ago. And it applies to relationships and it applies to podcasting. Yeah, it's not what you love about your podcast or what you love about the person that you are with, it's what you can put up with. You know, it's the, it's the, it's the things, it's the things that you don't like but you still love your podcast. You may not like that you don't have the best album or episode art. You may not like that you don't have the best branding positioning. You may not like your analytics. But to turn that around, and this is what I try to end conversations with, is that Okay, we can do all these things, you know, and you know, you can't eat a whole cow in a day. You might be able to eat a pie in a day, but you can't eat a whole cow in a day. So you have to, you have to take this thing a little chunk at a time, right? And embrace what you love and then try to enhance what you hate. And also remember that you have this beautiful audience that's already listening to you. People are— those that are currently subscribed. And then we go into that, that mindset of, oh, I only have 500 listeners. And, you know, and, and then I, you know, I, I— this is the trick I do. And matter of fact, let me go to Google Images.

I know what you're gonna do.

Yeah. And, you know, and, and, you know, I'm in the call with the individual, and I say, you know, show me 500 people, and Google Image will throw up an image that, you know, you know, crowd sizes here. You know, this is what 500— this is what 500 people look like. And this is a virtual picture, but yeah, you know, if, if we use that as an example, then what happens when you are in and out? You are sitting backstage at an event and you're about ready to walk out to a gymnasium where 500 people are sitting down and waiting for you to give a presentation. And it goes back to this mindset content creators have to get into, that they have to visualize their audience. Because if you have 500 people listening to your audience, you, you better damn well prepare as if 500 people were listening to you. You would not— you would not just like you and I just did today, pull the mic up and, and go. We would— you would have a good plan and you'd went over 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 times. You may even have practiced a little bit and contemplated in your mind your talking points and how you're going to step through this to go up and stand in front of 500 people live and give a 45-minute or an hour presentation or an interview. You're going to prepare harder for that. So when I tell podcasters that, I get this, hmm, hmm. So we spent time telling them what they can do, what they should do, and more importantly, prepare for an audience that is, you know, many, many shows reach that 1,000 listener barrier. Many do.

Sure.

It's not unusual. So visualize that. And if you have to, print that image out that you searched and put it somewhere where you can see it before you get and go on your show, and you'll have a whole different attitude. Mm-hmm. I think it's so— we sit behind a microphone, or you and I, microphone and camera, and oftentimes you try to do it more than I do. And you're doing— we're doing a little more prep for the show than we used to. But we have to take into account that there's 5 figures of people listening to this podcast.

Yeah. Yeah, it does put an additional kind of, I don't know if pressure is the right word on it, or, or preparation that typically should be done. And this topic kind of came up around doing an interview of sorts. And what's different about the show that we do is occasionally we do interviews on this show, but it's usually— and what's interesting is the dynamics of the audience when it's just you and I, right? Because we really dive into topics at a pretty deep level because we have the time to do it. But this this topic of doing interviews is really emblematic of this question because it's the combination of listening and preparation. And I think one of the skills that most people don't realize you really need to have to be able to be a successful podcaster that's doing an interview, like a one-on-one conversation, is that there is a lot of preparation for that conversation. That's done in advance, but that isn't the sole thing that you need to follow is your preparation. What you need to do is you need to be listening, you need to be thinking, and you need to be off the cuff too, to some degree. And I think that's what we're seeing. I think the skill that's needed is the ability to think on your feet, to think when you're in the middle of the podcast and to have a conversation. Not a rote interview, right, where you ask a question, you stop talking, the person you're interviewing does all the talking, and all you do is ask these pre-prepared questions. I don't think that's the era that we're in right now. I think the era that we're in right now is like what we do with this show. And this is why audiences are attracted to the shows that we do that are just you and I, because the the conversations that we have on this show is actually where the value is. It isn't really as much with having an interview, right? Yeah. Because those tend to exclude as well as include, right? If an audience is coming to this show to listen to you and I, then they're actually missing that if we have a guest. So it's around expectations, but it's also around, you know, a more complex topic than just preparation and having all these things that we've talked about kind of all buttoned up. Because I do know shows that are very popular on YouTube, likely very popular on podcasts that don't have a lot of heavy production, don't have a lot of heavy things that are behind their shows that are very popular as well. Because it really, at the end of the day, it's about personality, it's about information, it's about value, right? And that perspective of content quality, which I've done episodes on here recently, is a little bit of a misnomer. It's like, well, one person's quality is another person's trash. So how do you gauge what is quality content, right? When it comes to making a podcast. And I don't know, Todd, if you've thought about this issue before, I know that The podcast that you do, your Geek News Central podcast, you've been doing the same way for many years and you've obtained an audience and you've grown that show. But, but it isn't a show that's got lots of glitz and glamor and lots of splashy guests and, and a lot of promotion behind it. But you've been able to maintain a loyal audience because of you.

Yeah, that's correct. So, and this leads into a comment that's made by Beauty Bubble on YouTube. I mean, on, yeah, the YouTube comments, she says, an idea on the truth of why people become successful on social platforms. In the case of podcasting, this— in this case of podcasting, PewDiePie said— of course, PewDiePie is a famous YouTuber— people have to love you enough to deeply care about you and all that you do. All the rest is voodoo. So I, I agree. This is, you know, until you have a moment— and my moment came early in podcasting, you know, from a tragedy. Yeah, that, that moment I came home at having missed my 200th episode because of my father's death and coming home and not having been on email and opening up my inbox, the 5,000 emails of condolences from my audience, is when I had this, had this aha moment, right? Yeah, where I said these aren't just fans of the show, they're, they're, they're family, they're Ohana. They are— they care, they really care. And until you have that moment, you, you just And I, you know, I don't wish that scenario on anyone, but at some point someone's going to have a moment. You're going to be somewhere, someone's going to walk up to you, grab you, say thank you, thank you for doing your show. And that's worth a million emails. Thank you, you helped me, you got me through something. You know, the 27 episodes my mom and dad— my mom and I did after my dad died And we talked— basically it was therapy for us. All we— all our goal was, was to help just one, one, one person that had lost a spouse. And over the years, that, that people have come to us, and now and again, I think we're probably up to 20, 20, 25 people that have emailed, said, hey, you really helped me get through a bad spot. But that was the goal of that show, was just to help one. And it was therapy for us to do the podcast just as a method to overcome grief and, you know, talk about the craziness. And, you know, her crying when she couldn't find the lawnmower key, and my buddy had to go over and find the lawnmower key. And, you know, stuff like this, you know. And, um, it, it— begin, you visualize that the audience is what it is from a size standpoint, and you prepare to talk to that audience as it is, and you give your heart to them in whatever content you're— and make a personal connection. Everything that Beauty Bubble just said in the— what PewDiePie said is spot on. People have to love you enough to deeply care about, about you and all that you do. And I, Rob, I don't think we have people that love us. You know, they probably—

I don't know that anybody— I mean, realistically, does anybody expect that we, we would care if we had that happen? But I mean, I think it would be— it's an interesting psychological question.

Yeah.

Do we really care if some— if this community loves us?

Or some people— some people hate me, just tunes in, right?

Right. Us boxing with each other, or is it— I mean, lots of people, lots of audiences have different motivations.

Yeah, it's true, right?

And it's not always a positive, right?

It could be a negative one too, right? You know, and some— and, you know, and some people, you know, some people, uh, you know, I don't always agree with you. And I love that when people come up and say, I don't always agree with you. That's, to me, means I've won, you know. And often today people are afraid to say, I don't agree with you. So as soon as someone comes up and says, I don't agree with you, I'm like, yes, we, we, we, we, we found that spot, right?

Well, that really cuts, cuts to the chase of the issues in our world today, right?

Right, right.

Well, having thin skin and, and the threat of free speech, uh, that really cuts to the chase here.

But Rob, you can't say free speech because everyone then thinks you're, um, as I was told recently, as soon as you start quoting, uh, free speech and people think you're right-wing wacko. So, um, yeah, I think it—

yeah, I think it says it in the U.S. Constitution, so it should be a bipartisan issue.

You would think it would be, but as soon as— and I've been told, as soon as you say the word free speech, you're automatically, you know, put in a different category. But, um, I suppose, right? So, but again, uh, we empower people. Maybe which way we should say it is podcasting empowers people to have a voice.

Okay. Yeah. All right. Mr. Politically Correct.

I know everyone that knows me knows I'm a big free speech advocate. It doesn't mean that's my political leaning, you know.

I mean, in the bigger picture of things I think the, the earlier days of podcasting, I, I think all of us would expound that as a virtue of this medium, right?

Yeah.

Um, and it was proud of it, but all of a sudden, you know, now it's something you have to cower in the corner about. I'm not sure that that makes a lot of sense.

Truth be told, if someone sat down with me and had a truly deep political conversation with me, they'd find them pretty moderate, you know. So um, you know, whatever you believe, you know.

But we haven't changed, the world has changed.

Yeah, that's true.

That's the real truth.

But I also had to— I also had 25 years, 35 years actually, of traveling around the world and meeting people from just all like walks of life. Yeah, well, that, that hasn't— that has to shape you, and, you know, some positive, some negative. Yeah, and, um, so, you know, I guess it is. But I guess that's all I wanted to say on that. And I do have some thoughts, um, as well. I'm feeling— how do I say this gently— we need to stop the animosity in podcasting.

Yes. Yeah.

So what do I mean by animosity? I, I really didn't fully realize what maybe was happening until a few days ago, um, and I won't go into the specifics, but Both Apple and Spotify are doing what they have to do, and they have given us both of those platforms. Whether you like their policies on how they do things one way or the other, they have given abilities for podcasts to be on their platforms. Um, I'm personally biased a little bit that I know that we would not be here this medium would not be here in the form it is today had not Apple done what they did in 2005 and made podcasting available on iTunes, which then led to a podcast, which then led from an iPhone to a podcast app on Apple Podcasts. Spotify has come into the scene, but there seems to be a growing number of people that want to give the bird one way or the other. I, I'm not, and I'm pretty much on the record. I understand what Spotify is doing. I understand what people give up or what they don't achieve by being over there all by themselves, but people that are on Spotify should not exclude themselves from being on Apple, and maybe vice versa. Now, I, I— there's just a little bit of what-have-you-done-for-me conversation going on right now, and when you really boil it down to brass tacks Has Spotify really done anything for the average podcaster besides making their shows available on their platforms for those that have an audience over there?

First of all, you're dealing with a perception issue. Yeah, versus a reality issue.

I think, you know, not everyone Uses Spotify for podcasts. Spotify market share in podcast is growing, but it's not anywhere near still today what Apple is. Everyone talks about poo-poo about who, you know, the Apple dropped a percent. Well, that's a good thing because they mean there's more options for listening to content. Spotify still a music-first platform. We can't forget about that. Um, they are in a logarithmic gatekeeper. It's a closed ecosystem. We have to fully understand that. And we know that Spotify's promotional algorithm is biased towards big names on Spotify. That's just it. They are going to— those big shows and names, people have contracts and partners with Spotify, will be raised to the top. And you're having ads placed without control. These are all the, the negatives, obviously. A lot of stuff I'm saying here, there's not a lot of transparency. Um, and definitely is definitely a walled garden, that's for sure. And what they're doing with your listener data, a lot of people don't care. I had a great conversation with someone recently about some of this attribution stuff and some stuff that's in works. I won't go into detail, but there may be a way ahead without selling out audiences. I'll just leave it at that. Um, wide distribution, including Apple Podcasts, Podcast Index, Podcasting 2.0, is really about one thing. It's about reduced dependence on one platform. Just like my saying is, you can't build your castle on rented land. What happened to me? I had a rented office and I got kicked to the curb, upended my entire life. It's still affecting me. You definitely have more avenues for discovery. Bonus, that's a plus by being everywhere. You got more control over revenue streams. And even Spotify realized this and have made Joe Rogan and other stuff available on multiple platforms. Why did they do that? More avenues for revenue, right? Um, you get more data, more insights, a lot more control for your audience, giving them the place to go that they want to go.

Discover—

diversified discovery. You're gonna be found on YouTube, you're gonna be found on Spotify, you can be found on Google, you can be found on podcasting apps. You know, there's this diversified discovery. Yeah, there's more organic channel growth for sure. But the most important thing is you— and again, until it— long as you are living 100% within the Spotify ecosphere And again, this sounds negative, right? Sorry, I'm spinning it this way. But until you move, not necessarily from their hosting, but until you move to have your own place to call home, you can't retain control of your brand. And you have to— the key in podcasting here is we don't want an over-association with one platform. So if you're telling your audience today, find my, find my podcast on Spotify, you're cutting your own throat. Or if you're just saying, find my podcast only on Apple Podcasts, it's the same thing. You, you can't have an over-association with one platform. This podcasting is because it's open You have the ability to say the famous words, find my podcast wherever podcasts are available.

Yeah. And there's folks out there that are, that are against saying that.

Yeah. So this animosity that I'm hearing, the animosity I hear that's come through on calls I'm on is, what has so-and-so done for me today? They don't owe you nothing. Right. Spotify owes you zero. Apple owes you zero. No one owes you anything. And you have to have your own destiny in your own hands. It's your choice where you want to be distributed. I chose for my personal show— didn't have it, not that it wasn't being listened to on anyway— I chose for my personal tech show to be removed off Spotify. But that's my choice. Am I going to tell my, my podcast hosting customers move off Spotify? Never. That would be suicide, right?

So it's a complicated topic, Todd. It's—

it is. But why the animosity?

It's a, it's a generational thing, I think. I, I think people are Is it Apple versus, uh, Mac versus Windows again? Uh, I would say probably, probably to some degree, because it's, it's a, it's a demographic difference too. It's, it's, but it's also people that are focused on Spotify are, are thinking more internationally. Typically they're typically younger, which means that they don't have really a long route in understanding the history of this medium and nor do they care. Yeah. Or where the majority of the audience is actually still coming from.

Yeah.

A lot of content creators and I would say a lot of consumers that use Spotify don't realize that the per capita consumption of podcasts on Spotify is dramatically less than the per user consumption of podcasts on Apple. So it's, you know, you're dealing with, but yet Spotify has greater international distribution in a broad sense. So they've been able to scoop up more users, but those users are spread, like you said earlier, between music and podcasts. Now, granted, that is something that exists even in Apple's platform, but to a lesser degree. Um, and it's really because Apple invested in their own standalone app inside of the Apple ecosystem, where Spotify has chosen to continue to blend podcasting in with music. And that's kind of split their user base and their consumption patterns, which is exactly what Spotify wants.

I will just give a shout out again to Apple, to Ted.

Yeah.

Tell— you need to— maybe it's time to remind podcasters in one of your mailings how they can apply to be featured. That used— I mean, people used to— have you— when's the last time, Rob, you've had a podcaster ask you, how do I get featured on Apple Podcasts?

All right, that or, or the whole thing around new and noteworthy.

It's been probably— right, no kidding— probably 2 years since I've had a— no, I take that back. I had a guy ask me—

I don't really hear anybody asking about several months ago, any of the platforms.

They said several months, maybe less than a month ago, I had one person ask, how do I get featured on Apple Podcasts? I said, well, there's a whole section on it in on the website, and I didn't have a link.

I said, just, just do a Google That's a form that you fill out to submit your opportunity to them, and their editors will review it and they'll pick you or not. I think it's pretty low likelihood that they'll pick any one podcast.

Well, okay, just like me, um, years ago— I don't do it anymore, you know— the BBC said, personal submission, the BBC said, would you like to come on air and, and talk about specific topics from time to time. And I was like, sure, not with BBC Asia. So I'd get woke up at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.

Yeah.

And they'd be like, Todd, um, can you come on the air in 15 minutes and talk about Subject X? I may not have known anything about Subject X, but guess what I always said? Yes. And guess what I did between brushing my teeth and getting a glass of water and slap on my face to get woke up, I Googled the topic and I become a 3-minute warrior. In 10 minutes, I could talk for 3 minutes on any topic because that's all they— wasn't like I was going on there to talk for an hour. They just wanted someone to come in and be a spokesperson on that topic, that particular news headline, that headline for 3 minutes. I got Todd Cochran from Geekness Central out of Honolulu, Hawaii on the line. And that was my prop. So what did I get? I got a little bump on the show every time I was on the BBC. So James, I know you got to speak and be on BBC here, but I've never been on BBC proper, but I was on BBC Asia numerous times on the— not on television, on the radio. Yeah. So, so it was opportunities like that or like asking, tell them the newspaper here, I'm celebrating 500 episodes. The newspaper came and did a this spot on me. I—

it—

you have to ask to be told no, right?

Though those opportunities don't come around as much as they used to because podcasting is not a new media anymore.

It's— you have to— you— it's just like going back to how, you know, the ugly baby conversation. How do you get those opportunities? You have to ask. They're not going to seek you out.

You have to build a relationship with a producer.

You know, I had every— I had every television station in Honolulu. I had like the 10 emails that I had collected at wherever I could get them that I would send stuff. And maybe like, you know, I— and again, it was like for like NPR in Hawaii. I would send stuff to NPR. Todd, can you come in the studio and speak for 15 minutes on this topic? Yes. I didn't even listen to NPR, but I got invited to come on NPR. Yeah, you know, I'm not going to turn down an opportunity to get 15 minutes and push my brand. So again, these opportunities are available. And again, going back to animosity thing, None of these platforms owe anybody anything. And are they really helping you? And if you're stuck on, oh, I love Spotify, well, I'll tell you a little story about me not wanting to use a Mac. I had a buddy—

well, Todd, I've never wanted to use a Mac, so that's okay.

I had a buddy, his name was James Reese. Him and I flew together, and he was a hardcore Mac guy. I was a hardcore Windows guy. And man, he tried to convert me for years. And we used to fly with a guy that took every amount of money that he had left over from his paycheck, and he would buy Apple stock when it was like Steve Jobs broke, like $3 and $4 or whatever it was. And I used to bust that guy's guts. I'll say that, I'll say that politely. Told him how a fool he was for buying that worthless Apple stock. This went on for months. I mean, probably more than 2 years. I was always teasing this guy in the airplane and we were having this thing with this other guy and he knew as a Windows guy who got the last laugh, right? Who got the last laugh?

Yeah. You couldn't have gone wrong. Um, more wrong either, either way though, Todd.

Well, you know, if I had just not been so hardheaded.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm a Windows guy. Had not had been so hardheaded, Rob, we wouldn't have this conversation. I'd be retired like that guy is that I know. And he sends me a little, little Facebook punch in the face about every 6 months because he remembers how I teased him about his Apple stock that he bought. Right, right. Hahaha, dummy. So, you know, so when I've got to the point in my life where I'm like, I can't, you know, so maybe I'm wrong in pulling my show from Spotify. Maybe I'm the dumb one already. I don't think so, but I'll pay the price if I do.

Well, I think you have to look at these things to some degree about, you know, what the future looks like, not so much what the past has been or what it is currently. And what are the big trends that are moving things in a certain direction? I mean, I think as you look at Spotify, they are trending to be growing. They're picking up what is perceived to be market share from Apple, which gives you this impression that They're, they're growing, but they're expanding.

But the problem is it comes with risk.

Of course.

How many emails did I get today of deplatformed episodes? Two. I got two today, and we looked at the shows— political content pulled from the platform. So No. Okay, so if you say the wrong thing— this goes back to the heart of podcasting. We're the only platform on this Earth, in the known universe, the known universe, where you cannot be deplatformed. You can still be sued. You can still be called a kook. You can still, you know, lose your job, but you can say whatever you want to say.

Yeah, but you can't, can't be, um, kind of protected from the consequences.

But at the same time, if you have a political opinion in a very politically charged environment right now, And so, and you have episodes being removed, well, and they're not being removed from other platforms. Hmm.

Hmm.

I guess this is my favorite thing. When I was, I'd be on the airplane in the Navy and someone would do something, one of my trainees that I was training would do something, I'd go, hmm. Really?

Well, Alex Jones is a perfect example of this.

Well, you know, and a lot of people don't like Alex Jones, so— but again, that's, that's regardless.

As far as I'm concerned, that's perfectly okay.

It's just, you know, he's an example of what happens, and he got, and he got sued for stuff he said, and he—

right, so he's not immune from the consequences, right? But he certainly— and he He got taken down by many podcast distribution platforms for some hate speech that he had on his program.

Again, alleged hate speech. So again—

Well, it's always— back then when that happened, most of the terms of service were pretty kind of vague on this topic, and they still are today around hate speech, right? What's the definition of what hate speech is?

Well, the Supreme Court has weighed in on that.

Right, and now it's, well, I mean, it's historically been linked up to some sort of a threat.

A threat, yeah. I'm going to do this to you, X, Y, Z. That's right.

And that's been where that line has typically been drawn. But I do think that we've expanded that line quite a bit over the last few years.

Well, others have tried to tie, tried, because they don't like speech, right? And, and again, um, I, I— we don't need to go over that.

But at the same point, I think all of us are clearly aware of what we're talking about here.

So, but here's— here in lies the, the catch, right? If you control your feed and you are on open podcasting You can say whatever you want. It's on you.

Well, and like Alex, he was able to maintain his RSS feed.

He's still online.

Yeah. He's still distributing his show. He's still distributing off of his own website.

And I think 90%, 99.9% of podcasters will probably never be sued. Although there has been a number of these cases where people are sued for different reasons, using music and everything.

Different types of things, but music and some level of defamation, right? Lawsuits. Yeah, I think copyright is the, is the more typical scenario.

But again, we go back to the essence of podcasting. The essence is, and then, you know, and I, you know, and this is where I'd hold the line, is, and this isn't going to be a new a big term for me. I'm going to be using it a lot. Hold the line means we have to understand the value of open and what it has provided us and allowed us to grow to the medium that we are today. Um, when the walls crumble down and the money runs out and advertisers— well, let's look at a layoff that just happened, another big layoff.

Um, Who is this?

Let me see. I'll pull it up.

Um, in the podcasting space?

Yeah, well, it just overall, um, let me find it. It was— who was it? NPR? Where is it? The 8% of they're going to host red only. Who was that? Um, crap. Hang on, I'll find it here. Oh man, I thought it was in this content stream right here. I didn't— oh, here we go. That was on the media. WNYC laying off another 8% of its workforce and will now start doing host-read ads. Oh, so now they're going to be forced to do host read at WNYC.

Interesting. Okay. They're forced to do host read ads.

Forced to do host read. Wow.

That's something unique, Todd. I have to say that's forced.

Yeah. That's an interesting development, isn't it?

Yes, it is. Yes. It's like, hmm. We're going back to where we used to be, and somehow that's innovative now.

Yeah, you know, and here you're going to have hosts now that are basically going to say, hey, read this, read for such and such product and use this promo code. And yet, yet WNYC is the biggest income supporters supposedly of WNYC, listener support. Yet they've laid off 8% and they're starting having forced to do host-read ads. Mm-hmm.

And even, well, what the Lipson CPM numbers were pushed out this week to race to the bottom, that they were— they dropped 3— was it 3% down to like $21?

Yeah, it was always hovered at 20. No matter, we can spend 10 hours on that topic alone. But so again, for you independent content creators, your indies, never to fear. You're not beholden to your advertiser because you don't get them. Most— 95% of you are not getting an advertiser because they've ignored you. So you have nothing to lose.

Right.

Nothing. Because don't worry, you're good. All listener support, value for value, right? Learn it, live it, breathe it. And by the way, we are lit and live right now, so, uh, I do want to thank those of you that are streaming the show, uh, live on, on your favorite modern podcast app at podcastapps.com. So, you know, Rob, I think, you know, we've come full circle here. But again, kill the animosity. Let's, let's, uh, embrace what we have built here over the last 19 years and understand the value of what we have put our blood, tears, and sweat in. I've lived this 24/7. Since October 9th, 2004, Rob. How long? And you've been doing this for a month, month longer than me.

Yeah, I'm, I'm coming up on 20 years in, uh, what, 11 days?

So, so, yeah, we didn't build this medium for it to be controlled by some entity that that wants to put their finger on you. And again, it goes back to, oh, ain't gonna happen to me, I don't talk about anything, until it is.

Yeah, I mean, I do wonder, Todd, if that's really ever going to happen in this medium. I mean, as long as we have RSS, it's going to be difficult for any company.

No, it's true.

You do that.

But if we have this mindset of people that says, I don't beeping need beeping so-and-so company, what have they done for me? What they have done is they have made this medium possible.

Well, Todd, I think we're coming into an era where people want to get special treatment, handouts. Get a boost. I don't know what, what the right word to describe it is, but I think that there is this, and it's a generational thing. I, I think that there is a desire to get support from these platforms somehow to help people that are struggling to be successful. And that's where this is coming from, I think. There's an expectation that, well, this is the big company, they should be able to help me be successful.

So what makes— I don't want to even go there. We're not— I don't know.

I know you don't, but I, but I think it is a psychology that's, that's motivating this, that, that it's almost like an entitlement, right? That, that people want feel like that there's a responsibility there.

If you have built a successful massive audience, you won't have to ask. They will come to you, right?

It's true, but you, you typically have to do that first.

Does YouTube— does YouTube reach out and help creators that are having 1,000 views on their podcast? On their YouTube listens? No. What does YouTube do? Until you get the prerequisite number of listener hours and you get to a prerequisite set of number of listeners, which is usually in the millions, then you get invited to YouTube special events. You just don't get invited to any special creator event by having an idea.

Now, if you guys They've, they've recently announced that they're— and this is, this is a buzz in the YouTube creator community right now— is that, um, YouTube's algorithm has been adjusted to, uh, prioritize new channels and new creators.

Okay, platform. This thing's getting a little dull.

Well, I just, I think it gets back to what you were just saying, Todd. I think that the— as the big get bigger and the big get more successful, there's this perception that the little guy is getting left out.

We'll see, right? But again, then they're going to— they're going to be very selective in making sure there is a threshold of success you already have. You're not— you're not going to be Todd and getting surfaced by YouTube, and it's never going to happen.

Okay, I think you're maybe missing their bigger point, and that's that they're trying to incentivize smaller creators or people that are willing to create new channels, right? So bringing new blood, maybe younger creators into the medium, and then having those creators be kind of like maybe favored for some period of time to determine if they have traction, right? And then if they have traction, then they will encourage them. Because I did notice a change in the algorithm, even with my own channel, probably a month and a half ago, 2 months ago, where it seemed like they had made a big change and they were evaluating content creators on their platform differently. And so I think if you're a longtime creator on their platform, you're probably your threshold of success kind of that's required kind of went up and maybe they're, they're taking that as a kind of like an adjustment for making room for new creators to come in and create content on the platform. And then, but I'm sure they'll still evaluate it under the same kind of algorithmic model of, of trying to evaluate those creators based on engagement.

But, but again, there's going to be length of consumption and things like that. There's going to be some prerequisites. You're going to have to build a channel to a certain size before that's going to kick in. They're not just going to give any, any Dick, Tom, or Harry the, the bump.

Think about it from the perspective is that all these platforms are heading towards algorithmic evaluation and judgment, right? So it isn't a personal thing. It's not, it's a computer, right? So they're going to go in and test. This is really kind of the mentality that I've seen start to enter the YouTube platform is where you can test different things, right? So I think on the backend, what they're going to do is they're going to test these new channels to see which one they see kind of like bumps in engagement, bumps in listening time. And if they see a pattern of, you know, a glimpse of hope, then maybe they'll, they'll fit them into the algorithm and help drive those new content creators.

Meanwhile, millions of shows will get driven to the bottom. I'm thinking, I'm so thankful that I'm in podcasting and I don't have to chase the YouTube, the YouTube.

These concepts that I'm talking about here are likely going to be coming to podcasts, consumption platforms.

Um, well, if it helps raise Indies, it's a much better chance of being discovered considering there's only 350,000 active podcasts right now. So much, much smaller pool to bring the cream to the top.

Yeah, but that's kind of where this is all going. It's going towards an algorithmic discovery process. And, and I think that's— Spotify, I'm sure, is increasingly engaging in this, and I think it I wouldn't be surprised if I see Apple do it as well, where this is kind of— they're doing a deeper analysis on engagement, listening time, all those kind of things, and then driving audience to those shows that people listen to the end, or they listen to 75% of it, or they watch longer timeframes, because that's the kind of data that we're able to see in the YouTube platform. And I do think that there's a lot of jealousy right now between the level of metrics in YouTube and the level of metrics that's available to podcasters. And I, yeah, I did want to mention too that I saw that Spreaker made an announcement, speaking of a full circle for Spreaker, but they did make an announcement. I can share the screen with you, but they announced a new kind of like a recording tool inside their app.

It's interesting. It's what's old is new again.

Yeah, because when Spreaker started many years ago back in 2010, that was the model that they had for Spreaker is that they had an app that was for listening and creating. And what's also interesting about this new kind of recording tool that they have is that it basically has a production process that has like sections of content, like a section that you can record that's an intro, and then a section of the show that's called the kickoff, and then a title music section.

Did they buy Anchor's tech?

I don't think so.

It sounds pretty similar.

This sounds very similar to what Lipson had with their Lipson Studio, where you had different segmented recordings and you could create a script for each segment of it. And this is kind of what this is doing. But Spreaker has always had a recording tool. It's the Spreaker app. I used to livestream through it back when I was working for Spreaker. And it's just interesting how Spotify removed this capability from their apps and then Lipson removed it, but then Spreaker added this tool to their platform. It's an interesting kind of juxtaposition of sorts.

When stuff gets removed, it means one thing.

Budget.

No, usage. Well, yeah, yeah, usage, usage was crap. They said, oh man, we threw that, we threw that stick of gum up on the wall and usage was so bad it's not worth continuing the, the supporting code development and everything goes along with it. And let's go ahead and pull the plug on that.

Yeah, because what's also interesting about this kind of production workflow is that it's, it's somewhat taking advantage of dynamic ad insertion of sorts because you're dynamically assembling all these segments of content into one show, right?

So Live Podcast Media says, agree with Rob, now big companies help local people, not YouTube helps to get followers, but they work with local creators. Apple will also make Apple class here. Well, here's the thing is, um, most podcasting is not local. So what does that even mean? Um, if you're YouTube, you might be creating local content, but podcasts are pretty much global. Some people have local shows, and I know there's some initiative out there to push that.

But at the end, I think there's more local probably in the paradigm of YouTube than, than you might think, Todd. I think that there's, there's content that's produced for local communities.

Well, and, and I'm sure there's YouTube reps in those, and they may not be YouTube employees, they might be ambassadors or something. So yeah, but again, I think, you know, I'm kind of, I guess just call me a little curmudgeon. I'm old school. Sustained superior content wins the day, and the keyword is sustained.

Um, right.

So how do we help content creators with the sustained part without telling them to go boohoo and cry to themselves?

Um, well, or, you know, is it I mean, is that where we're going to see AI come in and rescue the day for all of us?

Again, I go back to the people that are creating and the ones I'm having conversations with. You know, perspective is needed when you look at your stats. And again, visualizing how many people are actually reaching. I, you know, I, I think about my own personal company Who do I get to talk to on a daily basis? About 20 people. That's who I have influence over. And yet not really that many. I have, you know, a handful that I have direct influence over. Then I have my CTO, she has influence, and then we coordinate. So we're a small business, so I don't have influence over hundreds and thousands of people. But my show does. The people I reach in my show, I have— and not necessarily influence, but I'm in their ear in this show and my other, you know, 3 to 4 times a week I'm in people's ears. So as long as you're respecting who you're reaching, um, again, what is the goal? Is the goal to be a superstar and have 100, 200, 300,000, a million listeners and be able to monetize and make money? Very, very, very hard, and very, very few people will achieve that. So again, what is the goal that you're doing for your content? And I would fair say that more than 90%— that the goal is not— maybe 80%— the goal is not advertising. There's other means.

Yeah.

And I hear it when people say, well, what is it? I want to build a lead gen, or I want to be— I want to learn enough to become the subject matter expert in this topic, or I'm doing this because I love it. It's— and I don't worry about money. I think that's 50% of the folks alone, at least 50 to 60%. Don't give a care. They just do it because they love creating content and love to talk like I do and you do.

Right. Right. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, it's interesting. I noticed that there's a conversation that's brewing out there. I heard Daniel J. Lewis and Dave Jackson talk about podcast conferences on their podcast, The Future of Podcasting podcast that they do. And they were talking a lot about kind of what we might see with podcasting conferences. As we saw this kind of throwback that we just heard around the big comeback of host reads. Is it Are we potentially seeing a comeback in the need or the desire or the willingness for people to start putting on podcamps again? These concepts of smaller one-day events. And I think we're seeing that podcasting is heavily involved in trying to do this around the country as well. Are we going to see kind of like podcamps start popping up again where people in local communities can get together and talk about—

I hope so.

Yeah, yeah, I did see that there's a podindy.com in, in— it looks like the Indianapolis market, and on November 9th that's coming up.

So it's interesting because we've been in heavy conversation ever since the end of Podcast Movement about Matter of fact, we got talked about, Rob, on the Podcast Movement, uh, um, in the Podcast Movement group. The show got talked about and what we talked about from the last show. And, okay, and in, in essence of, you know, everyone has a different objective when they go to a show. Some people go to attend and learn, so I'm sure for the attendees it was probably a fantastic event. To go and learn and to network. Different vendors have different goals. And if you were a certain type of vendor, you probably were thrilled with the, with the type of content creator that was there because you were that, that was your business, that was your customer. You know, that was the person that would be a potential customer for you from a commercial standpoint. Yeah, but definitely my segment of business, um, besides waving a flag, you know, I think that we, you know, we've already talked that to death, but we were talked about quite a bit. And I think too is it that you probably got out of the show, as most people probably got a lot out of the show, because that was their objective, was to go and learn, which is, which is great, um, you know, and advances podcasting. And you got to hear lots of great speakers and So I'm sure from that regard, it, it was, it was good. So our perspective, my perspective is different because I go there with a different goal. Um, and, uh, so again, uh, not poo-pooing, you know, there's a lot of people there that probably had a great time. And, and, uh, but at the same point, a couple people in that comment thread, I don't, don't go for the same exact reason we talked about in the show, being it a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday event. And, uh, anyway, but go back to what you were saying. I, you know, I've been talking with my team. We had— I don't think this is private at all. I think we've talked about it on the show. We had originally, before COVID had plans to put together what we call Blueberry University and actually had a 2-day event planned with all the topics that we're going to cover. And we're going to— we're going to start in Detroit and see how, how effective it was. So I think that, um, this potentially could be the way ahead. Not necessarily Blueberry University, but local events.

You also heard that, uh, the, the former event, the Pod Summit event up in Calgary, is coming back here this month. I was surprised to see that.

Yeah, I heard that too.

So that's on September 20th to the 21st, Pod Summit YYC 2024 in Calgary.

You know, and the challenge though is, and what we found with the local events was, unless you're local local, for let's say the event is in Atlanta, all right, so for— I'd have to fly somebody down, pay for travel, pay for hotel. Maybe have a table there. You know, the challenge we had with local events was you never know if there was going to be 300 people there or 10, right? You know, and if you, if you travel in and there's only 10, um, you go back home and report that, then that, that's a challenge. So if someone's thinking about doing local events, let's, let's maybe have some regional, you know, try to have something in some places, areas where you can draw enough people. Indianapolis should be able to draw a decent crowd, I would think. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, kind of like, uh, a hybrid between like a, like a meetup event and an actual kind of one-day, one-track conference, which is, which is kind of a different—

a one-day, one-track is easy because you can have that in a hotel Right. Some, you know, you don't have to go to expensive hotel. No one has to overnight. You just rent the room for the day, you know, probably a couple thousand dollars. You can, you can have an event like that, uh, probably with pretty good success. But again, it depends on— takes local people to draw people in. So you're running a local event. Those that have had podcamps know they're almost as much work as a, a regular conference. Mm-hmm. Because most podcamps are two, two-day events.

They did have a little different structure to them because I've, I've done many podcamps over the years in the early days of this medium where all the attendees go and there's like a big master signup board that people that attend the conference actually will just write on a board, um, what their topic is and they'll lead a— yeah. Lead a session, you know, 15 minutes later or something like that.

Yeah, that was like the brain, the brain dates that, uh, that they had at the same concept, right?

It's the same concept.

By the way, we got 500 sets 2 days ago from Chose99, and I don't fully understand what he was trying to tell us. Is failing fast and early— now this is something to do with the last show— failing fast early has been around since the advent of agile development since 1990 and embraced by all Silicon Valley companies for at least 20 years. A CEO co-opting this as new thinking is beyond laughable. Agile— where do we talk about agile development?

Uh, I don't think we did. Yeah, I mean, I think the topic of failing fast is, is certainly something, but maybe came up in the context of our discussion about The Diary of a CEO with that, that Stephen conversation, because, you know, he had hired a, a chief failure officer.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's probably what it is, failing fast and early. Yeah, yeah.

And being able to identify those, those failure or weak points in your, in your production and your distribution and your monetization.

You know, we've done 2 or 3 things even in Blueberry that, you know, I said, should we take this off the shelf and revisit the code? Because, you know, 10 years— it was— we are 10 years too early for, for bringing stuff to market. And, um, you know, then you think about, well, no, now there's, you know, 5 people in this space already. How are we going to compete, um, with that? And what's, you know, what's our advantage Uh, but you know, one thing, we're heavily vested, but this is one thing that I've just continued to notice here is that the majority, high, high majority of podcasters don't even pay attention to any of the stuff we're talking about. They just do their show. Um, you know, they log into the host if they have to, they do their podcast, they have fun doing it. They're not, they're not following any of this stuff that's going on. They, they don't care. They're just, they're just doing their show. And, you know, that to me is, you know, a big, um, you know, the big thing of why podcasting is, is we're not doom and gloom here. We're down, but we're, we're nowhere are we in, oh my God, the sky is falling. And, you know, none of that is happening.

I think people fear stagnate, you know, being stagnant and not growing, right? I think that there's always this expectation or desire to— everything must continue to go up.

Well, you know, I think if you are stock-driven and you, you are beholden to your stockholders, what do companies do when That times are down. Well, we just saw it, the, the, you know, WYNC cut 8% of staff.

No.

So, you know, if you're not making it in the revenue standpoint and the black line gets above the red line— or is that the right— no, the red line gets above the black line— that's a non-sustainable business model.

Yeah.

So what do you have to do? Where's the first place you can go to to cut corners. You, you cut staff.

It's your— probably your biggest line item.

Oh, it all— it always is. It's the biggest. Um, you know, and for a small company like me, you know, losing one or two people would be a big deal. You know, we already run thin. Um, so that's, you know, not only we're holding— we're holding— we're trying to hold the line and make sure that, as this tough economic situation is in place, that we continue to hold the line and everyone gets a paycheck. And again, I don't want to— we're not in any risk, but it's something that I watch month to month to see where we're at, how we're doing, what the bank account balance looks like, the whole nine yards. You have to, or the next thing you know, you're given 3 days notice that you're pulling the plug. Um, that's what a lot of companies do. They, they don't adjust soon enough and they run themselves into the dirt, and it's a, it's an extinction event because they were unwilling to make hard decisions. Yeah. And that's what WYNC had to do. They had to make a hard decision. Yeah. Losing money, you can't lose money for too long. When you cut— I don't know how big their staff is, but that had to be—

I'm sure it's pretty big.

Yeah. What, what is the size of WNC? Let me see here. What is the size of WNC staff? Um, did I type it right? WNYC. WYNC, right? No. Oh, WNYC. Yeah, there we go. Uh, WNYC, 340 full and part-time employees. So 8% is 24, about 30 people lost their jobs. Yeah. And if you think about that, let's just do the, the calculator on that. That's, you know, if we, if we think about And I'm not saying everyone is making $100,000, but let's assume, um, that it was, uh, you know, $100,000 salary, and which is then $150,000 worth of salary and benefits, or maybe $175,000. So you probably had about a savings of— that's a big one— $4.8 million. So that's not a good—

that's probably a difference between being able to meet your payroll or not.

That's right. And if you're, if you're burning $4.8 million, losing— and they probably, they probably took a few more people based upon— so if you're losing $4.5 million a month, right, you know, let's say you're losing $4.8 million, you multiply that out by 12 That's $57 million in a year. No, no, no, it would have been $4.8 million for the year because I figured the salary for a year. So yeah, $4.8 million for the year. So, you know, that's— how many companies can survive $5 million of in the, in the red ever for a whole year? I don't think there's too many companies that can, can handle that. I don't think they run on margins that are that, that close.

Yeah, you can't. And it also could be a, a forward-looking thing too. Yeah, they may be forecasting a reduction in revenue. Yeah, so they're just preparing for what may be coming here in the fall. And I— it's, it's going to be a— it's going to be an interesting fall.

Well, I, you know, I keep, I keep hearing from people that, you know, I belong to the, to the Moose and I go to the Legion. Um, you know, for those of you know what the Moose is, uh, I have a Moose membership and really go for the cheap drinks is what it primarily is. Um, but you hear these business people sitting around tables and, you know, they're, they're, they're sobbing in their beer suds because it's not good, right? Um, you know, come August, September, they're, they're like, no new business, no new customers, no new contracts. People are tight.

So, Todd, I'm, I'm flying out, uh, later in the later this week to go out to the Alliance's event. Oh, you're gonna go?

Last year I— they invited me, but I had to opt not to go. It just financially, uh, there's not— again, I have to look at things from an ROI standpoint. I can go hang out and have fun and, you know, well, good for you.

I haven't gone in a couple years myself, so it was, yeah, just a reason to go out and see my daughter.

And as well as, yeah, they invited me back, but I just can't I can't go up to Seattle too, right? Yeah, so October 11th I am going to Honolulu, gonna go see my kids out there, and then, uh, and then I go remote for a couple of months again. So back, back to the Philippines on, on the 15th or something like that. So, okay, yeah, all the work I've done here in the studio will go cold iron for a while, but I am, I am taking Um, I'm gonna have a good camera and I'm set up so that we'll be able to do good quality video when I'm in the secondary location.

That sounds good.

Yeah. So we have made it to the end, Rob, not surprisingly.

Yeah. And doesn't look like I'm going to be available to do a show on the 11th, so—

oh, that works because I'm going to be in the air headed towards Honolulu, né? Oh, okay. Yeah, so, well, October 11th is a Friday, so will you—

no, no, I'm talking about September.

Oh, okay. Um, I will not be available October 11th, but that doesn't matter, it's not a show day. I will be available on October 9th.

Okay, what's your availability in September?

September, I am, uh, next week I'm not available because I'm going to be at the MayCon event. I'm going to be at the AI conference, but I'm available the rest of the month. 18th, 25th, I'll be available. I will not be available on October 2nd. We're having a company retreat down in Florida. We're bringing a team down to, uh, to an event. So 18, 25, 9, and then after the 9th we'll switch to night shows again.

Yeah, I can, I can do the 18th and the 25th. Okay, of September.

All right, so next week works out both. We're both not available on the 11th, so yeah. All right, that works out good. Okay, um All right, if you're not using the new Modern Podcast app, go to podcastapps.com. Time, Talent, or Treasure— have we provided you any good value today? If we have, we definitely appreciate any donations to the show. Rob and I split those donations directly. If you PayPal me, I send the half of that over to Rob. So you can donate it on the show's webpage at newmediashow.com.

Or Satoshis, that's the other one.

Satoshis are fine, yeah, that's good as well. Rob gets the split. But more importantly, we love, we love, we love your dollars. So if we've provided any value and made you think today, time, talent, or treasure, donate it back to the show. That time, talent is help us with the podcast. Uh, we're always— we can always use assistance. Yeah, I'm Todd at blueberry.com. On social, I'm @geeknews on X. On Mastodon, I'm @geeknews, @geeknews.chat. Kind of a double whammy there.

Rob Greenlee, yeah, I'm on all the social platforms, uh, LinkedIn, X, Facebook, Facebook, YouTube, all those. And I'm typically found off of my name, Rob Greenlee. So, or you can send me an email, rob.greenlee@gmail.com. We'd love to hear from you. And if you have any feedback about the show or any kind of comments, I did want to throw something out to you, Todd, as well as the audience of this is, do you guys think that we need to update the the COVID art for this show or do anything different with this show as we move into the future with this show? Is it time to drop the, the new media name or anything groundbreaking like that? Is, is podcasting not a new media anymore, or is it kind of like old media shows? Is that what we should call it now?

Old curmudgeon show?

The OG show, or, you know, what ideas do you have about what should happen to this show and what we should do differently to keep up with the trends, Todd?

And if you have an idea for album art, we'll always take donations. That's part of that talent piece, right? Because I have no talent. I use AI for everything now for images.

So, or some sort of new intro music.

Oh, that's right, because, you know, Todd and Rob in the afternoon. We're gonna need one that says Todd and Rob in the evening, right?

And wherever you listen or watch. Yeah, your podcast from.

That's right. Yeah. If you haven't already, go over to newmediashow.com. Please follow or subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcasting app. And, uh, this show is still on Spotify if you're listening over there. Um, please tell us who your one or two people that are over there.

Um, but, uh, they're probably going to drop us, Todd, before we drop.

Oh, maybe. Yeah, maybe. They don't care. They don't, they don't pay attention to what's going on. They don't listen to any of this content.

No, I'm sure.

Yeah, they're, they're the big kahuna right now. So, yep. Okay. All right, everybody, thanks for being here. We'll, uh, we'll see everyone back here on the 20th.

18th. On the 18th.

Yeah, we're back on the 18th of September at 3, 3 PM Eastern.