Podcasting Is Bigger Then You Think?

Todd and Rob in the afternoon.

Hey, afternoon delight with Todd and Rob.

Oh yeah, oh yeah. And here we are with the New Media Show, back at our almost regular time.

Yeah, except, except Rob, you had an interview to go to, so, uh, yeah, I had a conflict there that was booked book before I made my calendar change.

Ah, yes. So, uh, that's all it was. Yeah, no, no worries. But back here in the Palacio Studios in Southern Michigan, no more OBS. Hopefully no more disconnected cameras.

Well, you know, it always makes for a fun experience, right?

Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, but anyway, I was surprised. I— yesterday, uh, I got in Monday night. Of course, I was a vegetable. And then, uh, Tuesday, I, I just, yeah, finished work and I was like, oh, I got to turn the studio on because if I don't, something will happen. And, uh, and of course, what it was was dozens of updates and You know, so that, that took all night, and but everything was working, so we're ready for the, for the show today.

So yes, how long were you gone? Was it a couple months?

That's 70 days.

70, okay. Yeah, so about, about 2 months.

Yeah, a little over 2 months. So things weren't too dusty, and, uh, that's the main thing. Of course, I had everything covered up with terrycloth and, you know, to protect from, uh Whatever dust did migrate in here, but here we are. I'm home for just a few days and then off to the podcast show.

Wow.

You know, they call themselves a podcast show 2025. They don't call themselves a podcast show London anymore. They've, they've, uh, they're just calling themselves—

that could be a sign of something to come here.

Yeah, so the podcast show 2025. And, um, I, I've got a few observations. I, um, first of all, the, you know, as an exhibitor, you have an exhibitor portal. An exhibitor portal for them is just register who's going to be attending. It's just two of us. So I got that, you know, Mackenzie did that, or, or I don't know, I did it, or somebody did it. And then normally Mackenzie takes care of everything else, but they then they launch an app portal which doesn't copy everything over from the exhibitor portal, and only I could update that. So I was a little bit irritated because you have to be an attendee to update it. Just anyway, it's— so we finally, after many attempts, got into their system. It's just like every one of these trade shows does a bunch of stuff different. So, oh yeah, um, anyway, we're set up and ready to to leave. I leave on Monday, um, get in Tuesday, set up, and then Wednesday, Thursday's the show. Normally we'd get in a day earlier, but to be honest with you, at $400 a night for the hotel room, which is, you know, extraordinary— of course it's London—

so is that in, uh, US dollars or—

yes, in US dollars. So, uh, we're gonna, we're We're going to come in a day later, do the setup, and then do the show. And I'm going to stay a couple extra days. I've got points. I'm gonna stay in a change hotels and do the tourist thing for 2 days, then come. If I didn't realize Monday was Memorial Day, I want to come home to Memorial Day, but unfortunately I'm flying through Jersey, so, you know, we'll see if I make it or not. Or not New Jersey, I mean Newark. Flying through Newark, right? Yeah, right. And, um, yeah, so, uh, Dave, the other guy, he got rerouted. United took him to Denver and from, from Indianapolis to Denver, from Denver to, to UK. I did not get rerouted, so I guess my flight leaves late enough they think it's not going to be an issue. But, uh, yeah, so anyway, uh, but some observations going into the portal there was, um, I guess the best way to describe it, um, there is a, um, what's the best way to say it? There's profiles. So I'm reading through, I don't know, 50 pages of profiles of people that have signed up for the app, and, um the number of people that are producers. And I mean, as producer, producer, producer, producer, producer, uh, you know, I manage a network, manage a network, manage a network. But very few in the app so far that were actual podcasters. So this concerns me. Um, I am sure there will be a fair share of people there, but if this turns into podcast movement where there are only industry people at the event, uh, it was just page after page after page of industry people. So to me, that— and maybe industry people are more aligned with, you know, putting their profile up, um, but it, it, it did surprise me just a little bit.

Yeah, well, I think it's a, it's a trend that we've seen prior that, you know, these events have turned into— it's events for business deals.

Yeah.

And meetings and content representatives meeting with each other.

Right.

Content creators.

That's right.

Right.

But it was page after page of it, you know, coming from Australia, France, Germany. Ireland. And again, it was heads of networks and this and this and this and this, because I, you know, I'm kind of going through trying to figure out who I can message to say, hey, come on over and have a conversation. And I think I sent, on 20 pages of looking at profiles, I think I sent 11 messages. So that doesn't bode well, um. From, uh, from attendee stand. Now last year, we— there was a fair number of attendees that were podcasters that were walk-ins, so maybe they weren't worried about the app. So I guess I'll find out next week and then we'll make a determination. Now we're even talking about whether or not we attend Podcast Movement at all next year. You know, we're talking about, you know, oh, even in Dallas. Yeah, as an exhibitor. So, you know, we're committed this year, but if it turns out it's just an industry event again, I won't renew my booth. I will just go in as an individual and, you know, do business in the hallways. So, yeah, if it—

yeah, I think it's an interesting thought, Todd, of what's happening to these events and these events are not catering to the needs of content creators.

No, not at all. So Podfest is, but, but Podcast Movement definitely is. Well, you know, from the last two shows.

Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I think, um, that may be an opportunity that's exposing itself too, is to— that there's a window of opportunity here for shows to be more creator-focused.

Yeah. And of those people that were listed, at least so far that I've looked at, very few from America are going to London, as one would expect.

Yeah, just a month ago or so, a couple months ago, I— there was a lot of fear-mongering going on about if you traveled outside of the U.S., the U.S., you know, wouldn't let you back.

Oh, whatever, whatever. It's just— that's BS.

But that was a lot of the feedback that I heard, even from people that live in Canada. It's like, well, I'm not going to the US because I don't know if I'm going to make it across.

Oh my God, unbelievable.

Yeah, I know.

I cleared immigration and customs coming through San Francisco in less than 2 minutes. So, yeah, I waited for my bag for an hour, but yeah, it's all fearmongering for political reasons. It's just, yeah, ridiculous. And, um, UK now has a— you have to fill out the same type of paperwork people have to fill out coming here. It's a— basically gives you a 2-year window to be approved to come in, and it's, it's, it's an entry approval or something like that, which I don't mind. Every country I go to almost has one of those. Where are you staying? You know, where— you know, that type of information, isn't there?

I mean, back Back when I went to the podcast show, before I could leave London at the airport, I had to get a COVID test.

Oh, that was during the insanity.

It was back in, well, that was back in 2022.

So yeah, yeah.

So it was, yeah. So there's always something, some hurdle that you have to go through that makes traveling a nightmare.

So it's not really not a nightmare. 15 minutes. The application was, well, buggy. I had to do it on a phone. You couldn't do it on the computer, and it just took the app longer. Of course, I just reapplied for my concealed, uh, carry yesterday, and the website here in Michigan, it took me 30 minutes just waiting for 4 screens to update. So, and they're not— it isn't just anywhere else it's immune to these tech issues, right?

If it's anything to do with government or anything like that, it's going to be a mess.

Yeah. So, you know, But anyway, and you know, a couple of people, oh, aren't you worried about going to London? I'm like, why?

Yeah, well, you know, from the reason I just said, it's like, you know, I've been, been, you know, given all these fear-based reasons. Yeah, they shouldn't do it.

It's, you know, it's fantastic. Yeah. And, and I'm, I'm gonna go eat pub grub and I'm gonna have some pints and I'm gonna eat Indian food and I'm gonna— I've been recommended an Italian place and a French restaurant, so I'm gonna probably make reservations to those two places. Eat in the evening. Fancy, fancy places require quote-unquote reservation. Of course, you know, I'll be that, that dude, that solo dude that walks in and come in and, you know, takes up a whole table.

But there's a terrific burger joint right across the street from the, the— I know, I drive driveway up to the—

yeah, yeah, I've been in there.

Oh yeah, yeah.

But I don't go to London to eat burgers. I go to London to eat as much local cuisine. Of course, Indian food but I can't get Indian food here. So really, no Indian food there? It's not in— if I have to drive an hour.

Oh, I see.

Yeah, there's—

oh, in, in Michigan?

Yeah, where I live here. Yeah, right.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay, well, that makes more sense, you know.

So I guess I'll go to London to have Indian food.

Yeah.

But, but it, it is concerning, you know. And so I guess we'll see. We'll see what the turnout is. I might come back and have a completely different report.

Um, I know it's a more positive one because it'd be nice to actually get, get a, um, a good positive report from one of these conferences that interest is high and there's a lot of energy at it.

Yeah, there was a lot of energy last year. That's why we doubled down, you know. So I'm, you know, I'm hopeful that it's carrying over. Um, at the same time, the Um, you know, we're just— all this stuff is arriving here. I'm suitcasing all the materials. God forbid my suitcase gets lost because we'll really be screwed. But, you know, the booth is already set up. We just show up and throw our paperwork out.

Okay, so you did— what, you guys didn't, uh, ship your stuff there?

Oh no, we don't do that. You know how much shipping is to London?

I know, I know. That's, that's, that's why I asked.

Yeah, no, no, no, it's going in my suitcase. And if it fits in my carry-on, I'll put it in the carry-on above, but I don't think it will.

Right. Yeah. So, but anyway, I kind of teased the beginning of this episode about this concept that maybe podcasting may be bigger than all of us have been talking about.

Oh, really?

Yeah. If you look at the, the share that I sent you with the chart there that was put together by, of all people, Hernán López, his company, you know, the founder of Wondery and one of the founders of the Podcast Academy that I work with.

Oh, he's back in business?

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Or is he working?

He's got a company. Well, he's got his own companies. So he's not working for other people anymore. Owl and Company, I guess he did some research on this and came up with a global podcast economy number of $7.3 billion. So, and that breaks up and consolidates all at the same time here, a number that's based on direct ad revenue, programmatic ad revenue, branded work for hire. So more, you know, yeah, production standpoint revenue and consumer revenue.

So what does it mean, consumer giving money to podcasters?

I guess, yeah, I'm— whatever those sources were that, that provided revenue, it's not specified exactly what he meant by consumer revenue., but I'm assuming that it had something to do with direct payments, maybe premium-based offerings, things like that. Hmm. So, so that $7 billion gets broken up. So the biggest piece of it is direct ad revenue at about $4.6 billion.

Yeah, that is isolated at the top of 5% of podcasts.

Yeah. And the programmatic side is currently $1.6 billion.

Hmm.

Interesting number. And the branded work-for-hire kind of, you know, studio consulting, you know, podcasting experts kind of side of the market is $1.3 billion.

And oh, that was consumer revenue, $1.3 billion.

Oh, uh, yeah, you're right. Yeah, exactly. So $0.3 billion is the, is the branded, uh, work for hire.

I don't believe this at all.

Okay, why not? Why not?

No way. I just don't think it's, it's a real number. You're telling, you're telling me that consumers are contributing $1.3 billion a year to podcasters. Let's, let's just, let's just think about that for a second. And if you want, Rob, get your, get your calculator out and, uh, let's—

you know, we don't have the best reputations for breaking out the calculator.

Okay, so here's a calculator and, uh, you know, someone's gonna have to back me up here. One 3,000,000,000. Okay, that's $1.3 billion divided by 400,000 active shows.

I think he's— that— I think he's tried to roll up, uh, the whole industry, and that even includes video. So that's the— that's the— my understanding of what he was trying to do here.

So that means that if, if he include— if we just talk about active podcasts, that would be $3,250 that each podcaster on average was making. If we just do an average. Now let's, let's, let's change this again.

Let's say before you poo-poo it too much keep into account that it, it says in the report that I read that this is also including video. I know. And, and, and Patreon revenue also, as well as other, other kind of paid premium.

So what did Patreon announce recently that it had paid out? There was a number they had given. Do we remember what that number is?

I don't, I don't remember off top.

So if I take— so if I take $1.3 billion, and we know that 90% of shows are not getting money from their audience. So let's say, let's just say 40,000 shows in podcasting are getting money from their audience. So how many, how many more shows in YouTube? Uh, 10,000?

I don't know. I don't have a number on that to, to be able to dispute anything here.

I'm just, you know, there's probably 10,000. I, I'm guessing maybe I can't imagine there's more than 10,000 podcasters on YouTube earning money from an audience.

How you define what a podcast is?

Well, that's what he's saying, podcast. We're going to talk in YouTube, so we'll throw another 10,000 people in there. Okay, so let's divide that by 50,000. Okay, that means that each one of them are making $26,000 a year from their audience. I The show, the top show in podcasting, in podcasting that earns money from their audience is definitely Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak. They by far, they by far earn the most money, or at least the most transparent about it.

You're talking about revenue that's direct from their audience, right?

Donations. Let's do this. Let's look at here. What is podcast revenue from Patreon? They gave out a number.

You know, Todd, this is the first time that anyone's tried to attempt this because I think we have been talking about, you know, if you look at, I mean, if you're going to point out any of these numbers as, as kind of subjective, is the this number of 4.6 billion around podcasts are mainly ad-supported.

Wow. That's, that's another crazy number.

So, well, okay. But if you include video in there, that means that the revenue coming out of what is seen as a podcast on YouTube or Spotify or all those— well, we shouldn't include that, but Todd, this is globally too. Most of the numbers that we see here in the US, are US-only numbers, right? So the, the numbers that we see from the IAB as far as current ad, ad market, yeah, it's always US only. This is trying to do a global spin.

I'd like to see how he came up with these numbers. Just, just show, just show the data. Now, uh, Patreon did give $472 million, um, right? But this is to date, I think. I don't know. Yeah, 472 million to date, not this year.

Okay, this is based on 2024, uh, revenue.

So 2023 was 350 million, so maybe it was for a year, 470 million for a year. So maybe 2024 for Patreon. But then again, how are they defining podcasts? Is that YouTube? Is that, you know, that's—

it doesn't specify in the information I can see here.

Then there, there should be some very rich podcasters, very rich, if it's these kinds of numbers. If we're just— if we, if we think about audio, then the majority of that money is going to video, folks. Because there is not that many audio podcasters that are making— you know, I'd like to hear, I'd like to hear somebody's numbers if they're willing to, to lay it out on how much they're earning from their audience. I would like to hear some of the top shows says, I've earned a million dollars from my audience. I, I would love to hear someone disclaim that. That would be a great boost.

That'd be great. Uh, good, good project for the IAB to undertake is to try and roll these numbers up, just like what's being attempted here. Yeah, maybe these numbers are off by 25%, who knows.

The large figure—

the first time that anybody's tried to do this.

Yeah, I— it may be, maybe globally, but again, that $4.6 billion on where the majority of podcast ad revenue is in the United States, that means the rest of the world is doing only $2 billion to $2.3 billion. Yeah, I would be shocked if it was that much.

I mean, across the rest of the world, you mean?

Yeah.

Who's—

who are these people that are getting $7 billion?

Okay, Todd, I think, um One of the challenges of this conversation is we're bouncing back between, back and forth between talking about audio only. Oh, I know. And being fair and looking at this from a broader—

but the thing is, it depends on how broad a brush you want to paint.

If it—

yeah, if it's got a microphone in the background, are they calling it a podcast? You know, that's the problem here.

Well, Todd, I can't remember if I mentioned this on the last episode, but I just did in the interview that I just did. But was it— I'm increasingly seeing many of the podcasts that I saw, and maybe I did mention this the last time we did this, but many of the shows that I would see as an audio and video podcast have removed the microphones. From their videos. So like, like instead of my microphone being visible—

can't hear you.

I know, just pull it out of the screen. Yeah, but it's a— yeah, it's a microphone that's over their head.

Well, I can't hear you, so pull your microphone back up.

Todd, are you trying to make a statement here, or—

no, if they, if they, if they have good audio. So let me, let me give you a little Fun thing here, there's a new website out, it's called whatsapodcast.com. Oh really?

Yeah, I hadn't seen this.

Yeah, what's a podcast at whatsapodcast.com. A podcast is a noun, episodic multimedia content that's downloadable via RSS, Real Simple Syndication. A podcast can be audio or video.

Okay, I would say that That kind of scrambles the issue a little bit.

No, I don't. It's just a little, just a little jab there.

Just a little bit of it.

A little bird shared that with me. Uh, so talk about, uh, I got some comments.

It comes to monkey, monkey up the waters.

Uh, there's a Beauty Bubble says one number published was the estimated monthly payouts for this category add up to nearly 3.5 million. Which category is that? I'm looking at—

or, or 3.5 billion?

Or no, 3.5 million. Here is more from the paragraph. While the podcast genre might not attract nearly as many patrons, the top Patreon creators runs a podcast more. But as of July 24th, there were over 17,000 podcasters with at least one patron on Patreon. The estimated payouts for this category add up to $3.5 million. And hope that adds some color to the conversation. Earnings now include private donations, PayPal, Venmo, even the odd cryptocurrency donation might be added. And, uh, Glitch says Todd's going to be Todd. Yes, he is.

So, well, this gets back to a much bigger issue in the medium right now that really applies to everything is from monetization to metrics to everything is that we've decided or the market has decided that we're going to just scramble everything up. It's almost like we have like a dozen eggs and we chose to just crack 'em all and put 'em in one bowl.

Yeah, it's the, YouTube thing, you know, their BS.

Well, okay. I mean, but the audience is voting with their eyes and with their ears, right? So regardless of what YouTube has done or anything, that is what we're in. That's what we're up against, right? And Spotify's recent change in their—

which has got podcasters leaving. Right, right.

Well, I was going to talk about that a little bit, but, um, you know, changing from start to play, which is kind of what they've done.

Yeah.

Um, so, and then publicly displaying the play part, uh, which is not based on any kind of IAB metric standard or whatever. So we're going to create this fragmentation of metrics again, Todd, which I know is going to drive you crazy. Um, so It's like, you know, the numbers that are visible are going to be higher than the numbers that are reported to advertisers, and that's going to, that's going to—

I think people need to use caution here and, and, and being very careful on this video narrative. Be careful what you wish for because video— but not— but be careful what you wish for because podcasting could come unglued and hosting companies could go out of business. And all you're left— this is serious— all you're going to be left with is YouTube and Spotify.

That's why the industry needs to—

the industry can't do nothing because industry is sabotaging itself by talking about this ongoing video narrative that, my God, you got to have a video. Now let me show you something. I started a new show called Podcast Myth in my recent episode, Spotify and YouTube versus RSS and podcasting. You should go listen to it, you might be entertained. Um, I'm just saying that the whole podcast establishment has bought into video, and they, they are—

video's always been part of podcast.

I understand, but they're buying into the YouTube narrative of podcasting. They don't give two shits about RSS and video. I was asked again recently, do you guys support video? I said yes, we've supported video for 18 years. Then what apps support video? Okay, here's, here's the link to the list. You were asked this too in a group recently, and you gave them a list.

Page, page that was put up by Rob Walsh. Yeah.

So you put up information, but, but I don't see a rush of podcasters wanting to have a video podcast via RSS.

Well, that's, that's because Apple hasn't, uh, woken up to what's going on here.

So, uh, Grok— we're not going to count Grok anyway. The Grok Beauty Bubble says— of course, I think ChatGPT says the same thing. A podcast is digital audio video series, typically episodic, that you can download or stream online. Download, yes, yes, download via RSS.

But it did throw that word stream in, didn't it? Yeah, they did, which, which plays into the Podcasting 2.0 narrative too, Todd. So I mean, it's all these things are coming together to just drive everybody absolutely crazy. Well, I, I'm not— just admit it, Todd. We're, we're in the, um, the kind of crazy time in the medium.

Ask me how many times—

losing their minds—

ask me how many times last month have I been on a call with a podcaster asked me do I need to do video? Zero.

Doesn't mean it's not happening.

Ask me how many times this month we've had people sign up for Viddepod. To bring their video back to podcasting, and that's a big number.

Okay, that's a little bit of a clue what's going on here, Todd.

Well, again, these are people that are— never had a podcast. These people have been on YouTube.

Well, I would say that's a good trend. Yeah, there's no question about that. But I think this whole kind of trying to turn our back on, on videos actually turning back on the—

oh, it's not. I think, I think we have to understand that it's, it's all fucking propaganda.

No, it's not. Oh, propaganda?

No. Okay, no, I, I— the narrative is starting to change from what I'm hearing from content creators.

I'm just telling you, your platform is thought of as an audio-first platform. Yeah, of course, of course those are going to be the conversations that you hear.

No, I have people talking to me all the time about what's going on in the space, customers, and we're doing customer calls on a weekly basis. We're having great conversations, and the majority of people don't have the money or the time.

Yeah, well, okay, I'm not saying that everybody has to do anything. I'm just saying that, that you're not speaking to the people. There's a whole nother community. Oh, good.

Then go do YouTube. Go. And, and, and salami.

And Todd, you're, you're tapping into the benefit of that. That there's this whole other community that's thinking a little bit more about video that could take what they're doing in video and work with your platform to get it into—

that's fine.

But again, I think that's, that's the way you should—

I think we need to quit, quit giving all this credit. I— that's all I'm saying.

You get credit to who?

All this political narrative about you got to have a video podcast.

It's a political narrative.

No, it is a commercial narrative.

I don't really see it entirely that way because I see it as the audience is speaking.

The audience, uh, it hasn't left audio. Those numbers are not going to have—

huh? What the research is showing us, Todd, is that they want both. Well, again, the audience wants the option of having audio or video.

Again, for top-tier shows, that's it. Well, okay, who else is being successful on you? I go through, Rob, and make a list. I, I challenge you to spend 2 or 3 hours and make a list of— try to find the top 250 YouTube quote— and go right to the podcast section and make a list of the top shows. See how deep you get into YouTube as stuff that is classified a podcast by YouTube. If you get more than 250, I would be shocked. But there's—

they're the ones. 50, 250.

Yeah, go to the podcast section on YouTube. There's not 200. You— they don't— they don't highlight 250 shows.

I don't understand what you're talking about. Okay, so, so they don't highlight—

I don't know what that means. I Okay, podcast. So let me tell you what I'm talking about here. On YouTube, this guy, he's never had a, a audio podcast, LMG Clips, never. He's always been a YouTuber, always, from the very beginning, many, many years. Just go through this whole list.

And then I thought, if a, a viewer of that or a listener of that, yeah, looks at it, they're going to immediately think it's a podcast.

Well, that's why it's listed as a podcast. But he does other stuff besides standing in front of a mic. But again, go through this stack. Casey Neistat, has he been a, a, uh, you, a podcaster?

No.

So he's a hardcore YouTuber, but they have him listed in the podcast section. Okay, so again, go through and look.

Also, by labeling your show on YouTube as a podcast, it adds you to a different feature area in the platform.

Okay, so 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24. They only highlight 24 shows in the podcast section. There's more. But these are the only thing that they class that they say is a podcast. Yeah, they get huge views. Well, not really. This one's 124. Here's 219K, 13K views.

Okay, I wouldn't use this page as a gauge on how many podcasts are in YouTube.

Well, then YouTube's doing a— they're obviously— then they're not promoting any. Why aren't they promoting all these podcasts if they're doing so well?

Well, because what. What YouTube does is algorithmic. So you have logged in, right? Yeah. So this is your account. So it's. It's finding content in here that's relevant. That it. The algorithm. The AI algorithm thinks is likely to be more relevant to you.

No, no, no, no, No, no, no, no, no, no, no. There's, there's Leo Laporte. Haven't listened to his shows in more than 10 years. No, no, no.

I'm not saying it's accurate, Todd. I'm just saying that that's what it's doing here. It's a, it's an algorithmically curated page. That's all. That's mostly what YouTube does.

Beauty Bubble says do hashtag podcast on YouTube. So you do hashtag podcast. 13 million videos has a hashtag podcast.

See, this is another big area of difference between what YouTube is doing and what Apple does. And, but increasingly Spotify is shifting to be more like YouTube, is algorithmically curating what their account holders see. And that, you know, good or bad, you're not going to see everything on any page on YouTube just because they're trying to personalize, they're trying to make it—

MrBeast, MrBeast showed up as a podcast.

Hilarious.

Okay. Wife goes to podcast and finds husband there with another woman. That is an absolute— that's, you know, that's clickbait.

So what is a podcast is, is a question that was asked by the Oxford Road team as part of the media roundtable. Yeah. And they talked to many people in the industry. I'm going to invite Dan to come on the show again to talk about this because What they have found is that the media industry is increasingly seeing podcasting is being included with video.

I have no doubt.

And well, because that's what the brands want. The brands are buying against content now. They're not buying against podcasts, buying against TV shows, buying against radio. They're increasingly seeing Everything can merge into digital, right? So this is part of a bigger trend that we're seeing in media today, is that it's a consolidation. That's why I said that we've basically cracked a dozen eggs all into one bowl and we're blending them together.

So everything— so it looks to me like everything on YouTube is a podcast now.

So, okay, so what? I mean, I mean, I thought that you always said that it doesn't matter how you listen or where they listen as long as they listen.

I know, but it's making this narrative, and I'm looking at many of these shows that are showing up. They have beautiful, very expensive studios, you know, but they also have millions of views. Okay. And there, they don't highlight anyone that doesn't have any views. Yeah, it's only people— the only people I highlight are people that have a large number of views.

That is generally the case.

Yes. Yeah. So with you, so the average podcaster that is in the 90 percentile—

but that's what Apple does.

Uh, you have a big bigger chance of breaking out in Apple if you—

that's what Spotify does. Yeah, well, again, all these big, all these big media companies are not going to put on their front page shows that have, you know, 5 listeners.

And there is my— gonna do it. And there is my point. I agree. There is my— there is my point.

Well, because, Todd, unfortunately, there's my point. We've moved into a new era Well, then guess what?

Then every 90% of the— you're— what you're telling right now, Rob, is you're telling 90% of the audio podcasters they should quit.

That's what you say.

That, you know, that's kind of what you're saying. We moved into a new era. Only big shows are going to be able to be seen. Well, that's not true.

Yeah, but Todd, it was always a myth.

What was a myth?

True, that, that big shows weren't being highlighted. That's all that's been going on since the beginning of podcasting.

But, but the thing is, what you've done is, is the narrative of podcasting on video is being so much put out there that small shows that have 100 listeners think they have to do video now.

I don't think that really anything has really significantly changed, Todd. I'm just saying, platforms like Apple and Spotify and all the other ones feature big shows. But the pressure—

clicking on the pressure that's being put by the establishment on these smaller shows is you have to have video. And I'm like, no, you don't.

Who's the establishment?

You have been talking about you have to do video for the past 6 months.

No, I haven't.

It sure sounds like it.

You're hearing what you want to hear, Todd. You're not hearing what I'm actually saying.

Okay, tell me what you're saying.

Well, I'll say it again. I think the audience has heard me say it like 10 times, but obviously you haven't heard it, which is I don't care whether or not a person does just audio or just video. Yeah, or both. But this is what— this is why the media landscape is so challenging right now.

But are we serving video podcasters or are we serving audio podcasters? Both. I'll say it again. What's a podcast?

Well, I'm sorry, Todd, but this page doesn't, doesn't reflect the current market that we live in today.

And it's—

I know it's, it's living in the past is what it is. It's not living in the present. And in the present, there's very powerful creators out there now, Todd, that think of themselves as video and audio creators, not— I know, audio and video.

Oh, I agree.

So, you know, you have to keep that in mind that there's a whole nother community.

But at the same time, the pressure—

so what, say that you're not important?

So what it does say— no, what it did— what it says is smaller— it says smaller creators, you're not important, because the focus is on big creators.

Yeah, but that's always been the case, Todd.

I don't believe it.

Yeah, it's always been the case. It's just now it's more the case. Yeah. So that's what's changed.

So then guess what? So then what you're going to see is you're going to see the audio podcasting space disappear.

No, we're not going to see that.

I think it could. No. Oh, I absolutely think it could.

Todd, I have to really object to this because you're fearmongering.

I'm not fearmongering. I see what's going on with the number of audio shows being created. I see it. Go look at the stats, Todd.

The market adjusts to what the market wants. That's always been the case. It's true, right? If the market wants audio, it'll get audio. Yeah. If the market wants video, it's— it should get video, right? If the market wants audio and video, what should the market get?

It gets whatever it wants.

And video.

Yeah. I'm just saying there is an extreme risk. I'm telling you, 2 to 3 years. 2 to 3 years. If this narrative that video is fucking everything, which is what is being said today— I don't think that's going to— people could look at all the sessions, video, video, video, video. No one cares about audio.

Well, it's the— it's It's the hot shiny thing right now.

Yeah, it's a hot shiny thing.

So when, when Todd doesn't mean that audio is going to disappear, so let's hope— don't fearmonger on that. I don't think that's accurate.

Let's hope that the, that YouTube creators will start going to podcast movement. Otherwise, why? That event is not going to survive.

Does one conference have to survive?

If, if the conferences go away, it's a telltale sign of what's happening in the space.

No, if the conferences are struggling, they're struggling because they're doing something that's not catering to the market that exists today.

Now, they're definitely— there's definitely an issue in the space.

I'm just telling you. I mean, we'll have to see what happens at the podcast show, if it's the same pattern that we've been seeing happen at Yeah, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. If it is the same pattern, which there's pretty high likelihood that it will be, yeah, in my view, that this is indicative of the industry has moved away from being a creator medium and has moved towards being very singularly focused on the business side of podcasting. Yep. And that is a clue to where the issue is.

And that is a distant— and that will cause a disenfranchisement disenfranchisement. I can't even say it.

With just the conferences, right? I'm going to create a disenfranchisement of the content creators because they're just— they're doing their thing.

Look what's in the newsletters. Look, it's what's being announced. It's— I'm telling you, James Crittland agrees with me on this to a point, that, that, uh, this— the established podcast business could be very much in danger.

Yeah, well, I think if I agree with you from the perspective if, if we let RSS get disrupted.

Well, it's, it's in, in the conversation. Oh, there is, if you keep pushing this narrative that YouTube is God's gift to everything.

Yeah, but, but it's not about video. That's not what will harm RSS. Um, I don't believe it's going to harm RSS is us losing focus on innovating on RSS and making it more relevant to listeners and make it more relevant to the creator to care about it. And I don't know, I mean, I think that the RSS issue has left the consciousness of the listening side of podcasts.

Oh yeah, of course.

Many years ago. Oh yeah. I don't think that we should be surprised that all the trend lines push to push towards a kind of a pullback from RSS.

Well, it hasn't helped that major players— Marco, Apple, right— and others that are actually RSS-first ecosystems are failing to innovate and surface stuff faster.

Yeah, I think that's the real issue, is that it's not as relevant as it needs to.

But at the same time, um, I, I would give everyone a little homework, um, and it'll tell a lot— tell everyone a lot about where my brain's at. Because I'm— yeah, I spent a lot of time thinking about this, you know. I play devil's advocate here quite a bit. Oh, I know. So arguing with Rob just a little bit. Okay, so just so you guys know, Todd's not as ignorant as sometimes as he's sounding on the show. Oh yeah, okay, okay. So just, just, just—

that's a, that's a tightrope to walk.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, but anyway, um, go listen to episodes 215, 216, and 217 of Podcasting 2.0. Listen to them consecutively. If you are in the podcasting space, if you are an RSS podcaster If you're a YouTuber, audio— if you're an audio podcaster, go listen to 215, 216, 217 of Podcasting 2.0. Go listen to it. It's— you're gonna have to listen to about 5 hours of content. You're going to hear some very influential people in those episodes. You're going to hear Tom Webster. You're going to hear a couple of other parties out there. And I agree And really what it boils down to is that the apps, the modern-day apps, the download apps, have failed us.

Yeah, Apple is failing us.

The download apps have, have failed us and not kept up. That's just simple fact. And, and what is going to be required to— for those that are audio focused, in order to make, maintain, and be able to grow and thrive, is that you're going to— in, in our newsletter that went out today, I, I asked if you had a niche, you— if you're in a niche category, whatever it is, postage stamps, basket weaving, whatever niche you are in. If you have a niche podcast, I want to hear from you because collectively there's probably a dozen other niche shows. And what we have to do is we have to become smarter as audio creators to be able to, um, build community around those niche topics and around categories. Going back to the days of early day of podcasting where you— a network of 13 shows or something like that has a place to showcase and be able to thrive. Uh, but go listen to episode 215, 216, 217 from Podcasting 2.0, and I think what you're going to find out and you're going to realize is that the experience— and part of the reason why we've had challenges in Podcasting 2.0 is we're trying to do all these cool things and we've, we've, we've become the chicken before the egg, or however that works, egg before the chicken, or, you know, you guys, someone said cart before the horse. Yeah, you know, whatever it may be. And what we've learned is that, you know, that as always, the apps are the ones that are not being the ones that follow through, and we just have a bad experience. It was a miracle, and I think it was probably something already that Apple had, uh, planned. It was probably just luck that we got the transcript tag adopt over there. Yeah, you know, and I don't know if they did it— oh, I froze.

That's, that's pretty low-hanging fruit, isn't it, Todd?

What's going on here? I'm freezing.

That's right, I see you back.

Oh yeah, that's not a good sign. It's choppy. That's odd.

Okay, blip in your—

yeah, glitch in the matrix here, you know. That's odd.

Okay, blip in your—

yeah, glitch in the matrix here, you know. System hasn't been on in 70 days, but, um,