The Emotional Audio Secret Top Podcasters Don't Talk About

Tonight we're going to talk about emotion and authenticity in this episode, and it's a very interesting topic. And I appreciate you being here on Podcast Tips with me tonight. My name is Rob Greenlee. And I think emotion and authenticity are one of the key factors in growing today. There's a lot of factors that go into being a content creator now. But navigating emotion in combination with taking people from crying to laughing is a very powerful capability that, as a communicator, that's why it's so important when people get up on stage, for a presentation, oftentimes they'll have a joke to tell or something like that. And that'll actually trigger them to have a, put a smile on their face and to be paying attention, right? Because people like to be entertained. People like to think about something that's funny. And then immediately take them into some sort of topic that maybe intrigues them. You know, if it's a controversy, and to tell interesting stories. And to explore something new, maybe, and have that be something that is part of your, I hate to say, schtick, but maybe it becomes over time kind of your personality, right? So as you start out as a content creator and as you start out as in our world today, I think we're all spending a lot of time on video and we're all spending a lot of time talking to other people through the internet. So having these kind of basic skills To some degree, it's appropriate, and in other ways, maybe it's not appropriate. So you just have to navigate that. And, and, but the key thing tonight that we're going to talk about is trying to strike a balance of staying true to one's authentic voice and, and through the tempting allure of chasing a trend, right? And oftentimes, that is driven by format It's also driven by where you're distributing your show, what the expectations of those consumption platforms are around controversial topics. It is another factor here. There's so many factors that are coming into play now to be a modern content creator. Now, it's not like the early days of podcasting where you just get a couple of microphones and get your buddy to come in and talk about video games or something like that. Um, we have become— and this is a big trend that came up in a lot of the, the podcasts that I've done over the last week— is that podcasting and new media has become the mainstream media now. I mean, if you look at what's happening on the cable news channel side and, and a lot of those big, uh, networks, whatever, they're kind of dismantling what they're doing. So it's, it's kind of They're seeing that the attention and the influence is moving somewhere else. And the question is why? And I think it's because of these topics that I'm gonna talk about tonight. Emotions, authenticity, and believability comes into play here too. And a certain amount of honesty or truth-telling, as opposed to many of the kind of mainstream perceptions of reality. And I can see it in my own consumption. I can see it on YouTube. I can see it in all sorts of successful media companies right now. You know, you could paint this picture that this is really all about kind of like conspiracy theories, right? People are driven to those things that are questioning authority, questioning the assumptions that we have. There's still a big chunk of people that don't like to do that, right? So they're They're very safe in a particular bubble of sorts of spectrum of thought, right? And then there's other people that have kind of broken out of that bubble and are embracing extreme topics, controversial topics that unfortunately for many that have put out these actions or decisions that have now been debunked by, um, by additional facts coming out. Um, it— there is this tension that's, that's driving this independent media landscape forward. And I guess what I'm trying to talk about tonight is really kind of tapping into that and be a podcaster that your audience can trust, um, over the hype. Yeah, I do another show that I'm going to be doing an episode tomorrow called Trust Factor. And I'm going to be diving into those areas that people have a lot of problems around trust. So those are an important part of what's happening in the world today. And because there is a lot of hype, there's a lot of misinformation that's available everywhere, no matter what side of the spectrum that you're looking at things, controversies and, and people speculating about what's going on and maybe not telling the entire truth., but over time, guess what? Those things tend to be discovered, right? So what you put out there needs to be true and defensible, but, and, and really be conscious of the fact that at some point you may be proven wrong on your controversial perspectives, right? And, and that is, that is a challenge for us in our society, especially if we want to maintain some level of free speech. And all this kind of pertains to the complexity now of free speech and the ability of the community, I'm talking about the people at large that are consuming this content because of the world connectivity of the internet now, are increasingly getting faced with having to evaluate the things that they hear and judge whether or not it's true or not internally. And I think increasingly that's important to do because I'm not sure that you can trust any particular source of information as getting it entirely right, right? So I think we all assumed, at least in the early days when I was growing up, that the mainstream media was telling us the truth, right? And being transparent, telling us what we needed to know. And I wonder now, if they really were. Um, but I also know that the world has changed a lot, and it's becoming interconnected, internet-based, uh, platform for global communication. It's never been like this before. I mean, it's been this way for like 20 years now, but it's, it's gone to a level where it's really taken over mainstream institutions and changed the, the dialogue in a way that we've never really seen before. So we're a little bit in uncharted waters here because the allure of trending topics and controversial topics is one that really gets a lot of traction with people. And I think it's— well, I should back up and say that's probably not the case with everybody, right? I think that there's a lot of people that hear a controversial subject or hear something that goes against the the grain of the mainstream understanding and pushes back on it because maybe they don't want to accept that that might be a possibility. So that's the tension. So as you look at your audiences and you look at who you're talking about, what you're going to find is that how you approach these things will attract or push away audience. And that may be something that happens to your content if you're kind of a trending topics show. Now granted, there's a lot of shows that you can do that are, you know, about science or about— and even that's a little political now— but there's, there's topics that you can get involved in that don't get into these controversies too much. But I do think that most things now that deviate from the, the norm are considered to be controversial, maybe conspiracy-related topics, and those can clash with people's perceptions of what they believe in their lives. And now more than ever, they're able to express themselves, right? And put it out there on the internet that they don't agree with you and that you're wrong and that somehow you're evil or you're doing the bad thing or something like that. I'm seeing these extremes in people all the time. Now, that's a key clue to what I'm trying to say here is that, is that people have emotions. I saw in the early days of my, my kind of radio career is I did a nationally syndicated radio show, and it had a lot of reach and had a lot of distribution. And I found that when I had certain topics on my show, um, that it just inspired people to just kind of entirely kind of blow back on me, right, and, and send me hate-filled emails, or now it's a form of trolling or whatever that we wanna call it now. And that was always interesting to me because I tried not to react to it emotionally because reacting to things like that emotionally can run you through the rollercoaster ride of your experience, right? And so over time, I kinda get a little bit thick-skinned about it to some degree and realize that if this person is coming back and giving me negative feedback, every week, that means that they're probably listening to my show every week, and I shouldn't be upset at that. But what I should do is respect that and to respond to it in a positive way, and not necessarily to reinforce the message that they're telling me that may be factually incorrect, but it may be emotionally correct for them. So success around controversy can be short-lived especially if that controversy proves you wrong, then you, you, you really need to be willing to swallow a little crow on that and be honest with your audience. I made a mistake. I, I said that this was this and it didn't turn out to be that way, but it turned out to be like this. Right. And, and we all have a perception on our reality and what's going on in our world. And I think it's okay to, to take what information that you have and, and put it out there and see what the community reacts to it. Hopefully, if we're in a free speech type of environment, that we will get a diverse enough feedback on that because other people are smart and other people do maybe more in-depth research on topics that maybe you haven't, and maybe they know something that you don't know. And so that's why you have to be willing to listen and not just fight with them and take an aggressive stance with them that pushes them away, because that's what you don't want if you want to be a content creator. You don't want to push your audience away. What you want them is to come join you and have a conversation. That's what's really powerful about live too. And I need to pull in some comments here too. Chris Stone, here, let me pull up, I haven't really read the message here, but people are able to choose what they want to hear and see versus what is served to them more so than ever. And that is very true, Chris. And I think that that comes with a little bit of danger zone too, is that you only see what you want to hear and see. And I think that's always been the issue that I've had with this concept is, and this was kind of the goal of the early technology platforms I'm talking about Facebook and X, or Twitter in the early days, and other platforms is that what they wanted to come up with algorithms that suggested content that they knew based on past behavior that you would want to engage with. And so they would just force-feed us content that they knew would engage us, right? But one of the problems with that though is that takes out of the equation of having a diverse experience. In content and being exposed to things that maybe you're uncomfortable with, and that expands your personal framework to the world. And if we're not doing that anymore, then that's a challenge. And I think we're seeing that a little bit. It's causing division because people are only seeing what they want to see. And I think that's happening more and more, and I think it's dangerous. That's why these kind of larger community square platforms that are not censoring speech and not taking a side are very important to the long-term dialogue of civilization and human-to-human conversation. So anyway, let me jump ahead here, and it looks like there's a few people that have jumped in here and posted a comment. Lamon says hello. And it looks like, uh, looks like Lama also writes, hello from Gambia, West Africa. So, well, welcome, Lama, from West Africa. It's an honor to have you here. Fantastic, thank you so much. Um, but let's, let's go ahead and jump into the next topic here. Um, authenticity is a, is a competitive advantage, and I think as we've seen, if you followed the the presidential election here in the US over the last few weeks, I think, or the last month or so, I think what you've seen is an example of that. And the really big shows have been able to have these presidential candidates on and really dive into in-depth, authentic conversations, not interviews. I think that's a key difference here that draws draws a line between where the state of the art in podcasting is right now is conversations. And it's a fine line of a difference between conversation and an interview, right? What is that distinction? That distinction is that people that go into those conversations typically are not regimented into a list of questions, right? It's okay to have a list of questions and it's okay to follow an outline of questions, But let's say, you know, there's this listening aspect, and I know I've talked about this on the show in the past. There's this listening part that comes into play very, very much in this process where you need to go with the flow. And I think if you look at like a, like a podcaster, like a Joe Rogan or whatever, he's so knowledgeable and is so quick on, on being able to, to hear what a guest says and to be able to respond to that with a follow-up question that is related to what the guest just said. Right. To dig a little deeper, I think, is the key. And, and if you make it through your question list, well, that's great. Maybe you didn't make a long enough question list. It would be my pushback on that because I don't think I've ever said every question on my question list in an interview when I've actually had a conversation with a person. And there's, there's two sides to look at that. There's a pre-interview that you can do sometimes, and then there's just not doing a pre-interview and just meeting somebody for the first time, right? But you, as a host, you need to take responsibility of that interview and know all about your guest, right? You need to be in-depth. You need to do background research. You need to be knowledgeable about them, if they've written a book or if they've done podcasting or whatever, and know what their strengths and their weaknesses are going into the interview. And then it's more like a, not really a friendship conversation. It's more authentic to maybe what a journalist might do in a conversation, or a true journalist. I think that the journalists of today now tend to be— some of them tend to be, or a lot of them tend to be podcasters now. And so, so being able to be intelligent, and that's why over time these, these big podcasters have been doing their shows a very long time. They do it every day. They have different guests on, different personalities, different, uh, information that's available to them. And they learn, right? If they're an intelligent person like Joe and maybe Mark Maron and Tim Ferriss, those type of show hosts are very, you know, also like Alex Friedman. I mean, these guys are very analytical. They're very socially and culturally in tune, right? Which is the other factor here that goes into this is, is what is the the personality of the host and what is their knowledge level? How can they actually, and I think if you look at some of the most successful shows, the host is actually probably just as or more knowledgeable about a particular topic than the guest, right? Even though they brought the guest on because they were an expert, oftentimes I think, and Joe's a good example of this, Joe will bring on a guest just so he can use as a foil against his own opinions, and that creates a very interesting dynamic between him and the guest where Joe can challenge that guest, and also that guest has to struggle sometimes to justify their knowledge, right? And that creates a very interesting dynamic in the actual content. So, you know, these are subtle things, and What I'm talking about tonight are pretty advanced concepts and ones that have come from, from somewhat from my own experience of doing, you know, a few hundred interview conversations over many, many years. And then also just what I see, because I watch a lot of long-form podcast conversations and video, and you can pick up so much. And this is the other topic I want to talk about here with this, is the power of video. The power of video is to communicate body language. It's also a way to communicate passion. It's also a way to show things that maybe audio just can't show, right? I mean, if I were to bring something up on the screen, which I'm going to do here in a minute, to actually talk about some of these emotional aspects and are it is takes things to another level. And I can totally understand why, why video now is what everybody's all hot about. You know, I know it's a very controversial topic in the podcasting industry right now because they like to think of themselves as audio first, and I get that, I understand that. But video has always been part of podcasting, you know, and it's just now it's come back into the fold and it's coming back in a, in, in a little bit more of kind of a, a good but threatening way., right? It's coming back in a way that the big proprietary platforms are using as a competitive lever in the market to get their way. But it is riding on the backs of what listeners and viewers want, you know, and that's what's driving all this. And so the kind of the big takeaway of the early part of the show was that these controversial topics resonate., right? There are some risks though, you know, about emotions and extreme controversies, like I'd mentioned earlier. So just keep in mind with those things. I do hope that the cultural climate that we are moving into now with after the election and after people have kind of like sorted out their extreme views to some degree, and more and more these conspiracy theories become proven fact, right, that people will like back up and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, maybe we shouldn't be jumping on people just because they have a different thought. So anyway, take that with a grain of salt for me, um, as a guy that's been around, um, online, online media for, for a long time and, and, um, would like us to get back to that because I, I think it's exciting to actually have that kind of landscape where we're all talking about topics that are important to all of us, but doing it in a respectful way and not trying to suppress or imply hate speech or anything like that against other people that have a different opinion. So anyway, that's kind of a big picture, but clearly there has been a different kind of revolution in media now. And the first revolution in the early years of podcasting was the the beginning of the breakaway from broadcast, the over-commercialization of broadcast, whether it be radio, TV, that inspired the very existence of podcasting. So was to break away from that and to create something new, more organic, more open, more based on people able to get access. One of the things about broadcast for many, many years when I was growing up is the controlled access to having a voice, right? Now we have global access. Now granted, there's a lot of interests out there that would like to close that down and restrict that again because a lot of people don't like what's being said. So, you know, that's the tension that comes as an inverse reaction to too much freedom., right? Because then it feels like it's chaos or anarchy, or, you know, the world is out of control and people need to get control back again, which exposes what the motivation has been all along really, is of controlling media is to control the message, right? And so, you know, but you layer on top of that now, I mean, most of podcasting was audio, audio only. In the early years, it had a lot of video in there, but a lot of that video moved from RSS feeds over to YouTube. Which is, you know, a part of all of our conversations to now is, is YouTube. So, and then what's happening with Spotify now, trying to, trying to compete with YouTube and trying to do some of the same things that YouTube has been doing for many, many, many, many years. I've been on YouTube for over 18 years myself. So, you know, that medium is, or that platform is not new. What that platform is, is evolving to being at the cutting edge of what creators are wanting. Now granted, there's trade-offs for that, right? The trade-offs are that the platform can control what's being said on the platform, right? And the First Amendment does give a private platform like a YouTube the legal right to come up with a terms of service that restricts certain speech. They do. The First Amendment really only protects government from getting involved in censoring the speech of the American people, so I think that's a key distinction to look at this from. So what's been happening is that the government has been imposing pressure on these private free speech platforms, right? Well, I actually shouldn't say it that way. The government has been imposing censorship on these platforms that would like to be able to gauge that discord or those topics or that content moderation in their way, right? Now, granted, we do have this legal clause called Section 230,, which basically tells these content platforms that if they curate or if they impose their will of censorship or content removal, that they may give up that Section 230 protection from being sued for copyright infringement or other types of hateful speech. So these are all very complicated topics, and I do think they're going to be easier for us to deal with as we look to the near and long future, but there's going to be pressure for people to not say certain things that people get offended about, and there's going to be pushback, and there's going to be political motivation on all those things, but, you know, Let's kind of move into another layer here and start talking about, you know, kind of emotions, I think, is probably a great topic here. And that spectrum really spans quite a range. And I think in— I was thinking about a lot in this episode tonight is that, can I really bring a lot of emotion to this topic? I mean, it's very meta to this topic, but I did feel like I needed to bring a lot of energy to the show and then also share that humor and laughing and smiling and talking about serious topics and being willing to say things that maybe are not accepted. And I think that's the risk that we take in this kind of censorship world is that we censor the ability to have a kind of an in-depth, kind of emotionally laden conversation, right, without offending people. So, and that's the challenge. And so if we have like a, you know, a perspective that really if you want to drive connection with audience, you need to have a certain range of emotions in your show. Right? And that's one of the powers of having a co-host, right? I did it for, for many years, a show for Spreaker, um, called the Spreaker Live Show. And I had a co-host, and I think I've mentioned this in the past, uh, a co-host that was very bombastic, very outspoken, very opinionated, whatever. And I'm this kind of this laid-back, kind of, um, easy to listen to, maybe even to the point of putting you to sleep type of a voice and type of a presenter. And so, you know, he wasn't like that, right? People were attracted to that show because they, they liked Alex. Alex was a very outspoken— talked really fast. He, he sometimes screamed into the microphone and really kind of put his emotions out there on his sleeves. And I, I have generally never been willing to to do that in shows. I've always been like the host that needs to kind of like, you know, maintain the balance in the discussion. But here, let me play a little video here that maybe talks about the range of emotions that are out there that maybe we can tap into to some degree. And so this one, is, is basically about adding a, a range of emotions to your, your show.

So let's go ahead and play that. Laughing as hard as I'm crying. Like, now, now I'm like, I don't— I can't even— I'm laughing so hard I can't breathe. I can't tell him to stop doing it because I need to be focused right now on the end of my possible life. And, you know, and I'm holding my thing and I'm laughing, I'm crying. And he goes, just calm down, calm down, calm down. And I'm like, all right. He goes, just relax. And then he starts going And he starts singing fucking La Bamba.

Oh no.

And you know, it breaks the tension, everything. And I'm like, dude, and I'm crying and laughing so hard because when you're in that heightened state of emotion, yeah, dude, I'm laughing as hard as I'm crying.

So that's a good example of what I'm talking about. I mean, I think all of us probably realize that, um, what's going on there. And people, um, you know, a lot of the most popular podcasts out there have those kind of conversations, right? People are communicating very enthusiastically and are laughing at themselves, and they're laughing at circumstances, and they're putting that into their shows and in their conversations and kind of being introspective. And then there's the other end of the spectrum. And let me pull this one. This is a Lewis Howes conversation. Let me bring that one up here next. And you can see this one. And let's see here. I can get that up here so I can start it.

Let's go and play that. Low and high emotions is what makes a human experience worth living. If everything was just neutral, there'd be no point in being here. So the emotionals color life, but we also need to be mindful of how much we allow other people to understand it's not about you if I'm sad today. And if I come to you and I say, I'm I'm really sad today, can I cry? And then you hold my hand, that makes us bond more. And you know it's not about you. And so it creates deeper intimacy when people are okay with their emotions and sharing them.

Low and high emotions is what makes— okay, let's pop out of that. And so that is the, the kind of message that, that you're trying to drive here. And I'm not sure that it's, it's easy to manufacture. I think it has to be authentic. It has to be real emotion, or people are going to see through it. And I think that's the key thing. But it is powerful if you can get people to actually feel and feel from an empathetic standpoint. And maybe even, you know, that's— I've seen this happen many times on podcasts when when maybe like victims or survivors of things go on a podcast and they actually cry in the podcast and they actually are authentic and real about how they're feeling about it. I know in the early years of podcasting, the comedians out of Los Angeles would actually create just such incredible bonds with their audience, especially around, Generally, comedians have a history of having emotional and mental challenges that they self-medicate with drugs or alcohol or whatever. And that's one of the reasons why they're compelling comedians, is that they kind of have this a little bit of a deranged view on the world. And that is also internalized, that creates a lot of challenges in their lives, and when they would go on their podcast to actually talk about those experiences, they would attract an audience that had very similar, you know, like drug abuse and alcoholism and things like that, and it created just awful experiences for those people, and they could really relate with this comedian who was bringing, you know, laughter and optimism and joy to their own experience with their challenges against alcoholism and things like that. And they would have conversations on the show about how they coped with that, how they dealt with it, how they moved forward with their lives. And that became a really an emotional connection with their audience that is really, really compelling. Now, granted, Not every show can generate that, but this is what the power of this intimate medium is of what we call podcasting. And increasingly even on the video side is that oftentimes those are the shows that share something with you that either shock you, amaze you, or enlighten you, or make you feel emotional. Those are the shows that really, really connect with audiences at a much deeper level. Now, this show will probably never do that because I'm not, I'm not talking about those kind of specific topics and raising them in, in the metadata. I'm actually just talking about these topics from a meta perspective. If you're a content creator, well, how do you need to think about these things? And But there is, you know, this whole challenge of kind of, you know, bringing authenticity like that and emotion has its risks. And there's no question about it. And it's emotional risks to your audience. It's emotional risks to you as a host too, because maybe some of those topics that are being talked about too are are very emotionally sensitive to, to you as well. Um, you know, and I think that the big picture of what, what's going on, at least in this episode tonight, is me sharing, um, some of the deeper, more psychological aspects of podcasting and the, the interpersonal relationships that a host can build with their audience that actually just makes those people just bonded to each other for life. And if you're a comedian, guess what? That's going to create a bond with that audience that they're going to show up for your next gig in some city that you're doing a tour in, which oftentimes a lot of these comedians are doing in-person tour events. And so they've created this emotional bond, and those people are more likely to show up and want to see him in person. Because they've made that personal connection. And it is, is an amazing thing, you know. And that's why we see quite a few successful podcasts able to have very successful in-person live events, is, is because oftentimes the humor, the emotion, the, the, the heartbreak, the, the controversy, all those things play into emotions that create deep interpersonal bonds that will drive deeper engagement and connection. And not everybody has those skills, though. You know, that's the other part I need to talk about too, is that sometimes these, these things are just kind of like, you know, a common term I like to use to describe it, it's kind of like the X factor, right? It's oftentimes, it's hard to plan for these things. It's hard to know when something is going to come up. Now granted, you can, you can probably contrive it to some degree by who you're bringing on your show, but these authentic moments or these, these stories that you get in your podcast may just come spontaneously out of nowhere. There may be no way to predict when something's going to come up. I know I did an interview many years ago now about being a father, and some topics came up in that podcast that I talked about thinking I was doing the right thing, and I, you know, it was a challenge for my kids and in my family to hear some of the things that I had to say publicly, so you have to be careful. There is a range of safe zone here, but those that kind of push the envelope, and some are more willing to do that than others, there is a risk. And if you get it wrong when you play these games and play this stuff, it can erode trust, and it can erode your, your distrust with your audience. So, you know, walk these lines carefully, and maybe walk into them slowly, and as you get better at them, then you can maybe take on more of these type of topics in your podcast. But they are very powerful. You know, it's a little bit like a nuclear weapon. If you can find that mix, if you can find that fine line that accomplishes these things, it can be a very powerful thing, you know, and And so, so I wanted to just make this a relatively short episode. I was— I'm increasingly thinking that at this point, uh, with what I'm doing with this show, I think it's a podcast tip show. So keeping it a little bit short and concise is probably the best way to go. And, and so that's, that's what I'm gonna, gonna do here. And I hope you, you got something from this episode that will be helpful to you in your your pursuits as a content creator. And increasingly, I'm, I'm thinking about, um, what we're doing here is I'm a content creator now. I'm not a podcaster. So that's not to say that the term podcasting doesn't have a place. I think it does have a place. But the question is, is that the media landscape is getting so diverse with so many different layers to it, Shorts, video, YouTube, Spotify, TikTok, Pinterest, and you just go through the litany of the social platforms out there. And increasingly, formerly known as podcasters are existing in all these platforms. And they kind of need to because the audience is going, the audience is where all these things are. In the early days of podcasting, that's the podcasting mantra was, and the power of RSS was to be everywhere, right? Simply, right? You publish once, it is made available everywhere. And that's the opportunity that we face today is that being everywhere doesn't necessarily just include the podcast listening apps. It includes all these other platforms that are embracing video now that people are finding content. And to find an audience now, you kind of have to be in all of them, unfortunately. And that's really hard. That's not an easy thing to navigate. And that's why we're seeing this shift toward a professionalization of podcasting and why these big, bigger celebrities and bigger stars are growing so fast is because they have the resources to invest in this to grow across all the platforms, and that's what we're seeing happen in mainstream media and cable television, and big media is kind of like on their heels right now. They've been embracing the digital side, but they haven't had the authenticity and the believability and the truth-telling or the questioning that they need to have, that the world needs right now. The world needs people that are willing to question things and to challenge assumptions. That's what the online space does so well. Whether it's right or wrong is irrelevant to the conversation. It's just having a range of views is extremely powerful, and that's what's driven mainstream media out the doors because there's no trust over there anymore. Because it's— people don't know whether to believe it or not. So, and I guess that exists a little bit on the internet side too, but it's just, it's coming from, from more authentic, believable voices, I guess, is what it comes down to. It's not, not the same thing. So thank you so much for watching Podcast Tips tonight. As you can see, I'm probably— I'm a little bit changing the, the format of what I do here to some degree and, and trying to adapt to the the landscape that exists right now around content, you know, and having, you know, just kind of authentic conversations and trying to talk about topics that maybe are helpful to you. And I hope they are. And I hope that you, you come back and watch my next episode. And if you wanted to find me online, actually, I have a YouTube channel. This is streaming on right now at youtube.com/@robgreenlee. And then I can also be found on X as well, uh, @robgreenlee. And then if you want to send me an email, you're certainly welcome to do that, uh, robgreenlee@gmail.com. And I also do— well, I also do another show called The New Media Show. It's live every Wednesday. I talk about the podcast industry specifically, and we've been talking a lot about video lately. And then I have my own website at robgreenlee.com. And if you wanted to get all the archives from this show, audio and video, you can just go here, podcasttips.blubrry, and that's blubrry.net for those that are listening to the audio version of this, because this show is an audio podcast as well as a video podcast, as well as made available in LinkedIn, X, YouTube on the live side and on the instant replay side. So you can get this instantaneously on all those platforms. Plus, if you want to catch it in your Apple Podcasts app, you can, or in Spotify or any of those platforms, you can do that there too. So thank you so much for being here with me, and I look forward to having you back. Please subscribe to my, my channel on, on YouTube. That helps, you know, you get notified when I have a new episode coming. And like I said, I appreciate you being here. Um, good night. Thank you very much.