This Podcaster Won Awards—Here's Her 2024 Strategy

Well, thank you for joining me tonight on Podcast Tips with Rob Greenlee. It's fantastic to have you with me, and it's terrific to be back doing this show. I love doing live, and it's something that— this is my 33rd episode of Podcast Tips with Rob Greenlee. And so, like I said, thank you so much for being here with me, or if you're watching this or listening to this as an on-demand podcast, this show is also available as a video podcast, believe it or not, on Apple Podcasts. So you can actually listen to this in your podcast app if you choose to on the Apple platform. But it's also an audio podcast too. So you'll be able to check that out. And I like to share that with every episode because a lot of people don't realize that there is such a thing as a video podcast in Apple Podcasts. So it's something that's a little legacy to the past, but it's, it's still there. And, and Apple's kind of, you know, deemphasized it to some degree, but it's kind of a cool thing that you can do. In addition to, you know, YouTube and LinkedIn and these other kinds of video experiences, platforms that are out there, especially around live. So I'm using the StreamYard platform and I'm able to record this and and be able to get it out of the system as a local recording, and it works out terrific. But tonight, let's get into what I want to talk about tonight. I, I have a terrific guest with me tonight to do another deep dive into exploring some, some things about podcasting that might be helpful to you if you're an aspiring podcaster or even, even a video creator. And I would love to kind of unpack that tonight. I've got Kira Deneen with me, who is a longtime podcaster. And she does a podcast now. I know she's done some other podcasts in the past, but it's DNA Today, a genetics podcast. So she's been doing this series for some time now. I need to find out exactly how long she's been doing that series, but I think it's it's multiple years here, but I know that she started podcasting and has done a variety of podcasts going back to 2011. So, I think she's got, you know, some experiences she's going to bring to the table in addition to mine. So, let's bring up Kiera up to the stage and we can have a little chat with her. And—

Hello, everybody. Hi, Rob.

Hi, Kiera. It's great to have you with me. Um, on, on the show here.

So yeah, it's so like mind-boggling to have you be introducing me when it's like I should be interviewing you. You're the OG podcaster. And to then say that I'm a longtime podcaster, I'm like, this is just— no, that's like— yeah, not compared to you. Compared to most podcasters, yes. But, uh, yeah, it's just, uh, how amazing just to be able to be podcasting with you. So people don't realize Rob's a big, big, big deal. Not only is he really tall, but you're, you're quite a name in the podcasting space. I knew of you long before I met you. So kind of a pinch-me moment as a podcaster.

Well, thank you so much for that, Kira. I appreciate it. And I'm always appreciative of, of other podcasters regardless of how long they've been podcasting, because I think when you started in this medium is kind of pretty indicative of how you kind of view the medium today. And I think that there's some lessons to be learned from that. I think a lot of new podcasters coming into the space kind of see the lens through what they see currently from a listener perspective, but they don't have perspective on kind of a longer timescale on being a podcaster or what's increasingly now, I'm starting to change my my vernacular, I guess, of sorts to describe podcasters as really content creators and not necessarily putting them in the bucket of just being a podcaster per se, because oftentimes they're not just a podcaster. They're doing a lot of different stuff nowadays.

And maybe that's something I should be kind of labeling myself as more as a content creator. But to me, I'm like, oh, that's so Gen Z. I'm like, I'm a podcaster. Like, that's what we were called back, as you said it, when I started in 2011. Like, that's That's what we were called. Content creators weren't a thing, you know, whatever that was 12 years ago, 13 years ago.

Yeah, I think back in those days, even in the 2011, 2012, 2013 timeframe, I think it was kind of considered to be a little bit of a cutting-edge thing to be a podcaster. And it was a little bit of a distinction, right, to be a podcaster. But increasingly now, as I even look at my career and it's how it's evolved over time, I'm increasingly thinking myself more as a creator, content creator, than I am as a podcaster now. And I think it's because I've gotten involved in doing this with, you know, like what we're doing tonight. Not that I have really shied away from doing live or doing video and stuff in the past. I've done my New Media Show with Todd Cochran for like 14 years. So that's always been a video show. Um, so it's—

and you guys do that live too, right? Because I see it come up a lot. So yeah, yeah, yep, yeah.

And it's been pretty much every week. I think we're, we're, we're over like 600 episodes now. So wow, it's, uh, it's a lot of— but we have taken time off too. So just because you're— you've been doing it a long time, that doesn't mean that there aren't gaps when you don't. And, and so that's an interesting aspect of podcasting too, is how do you maintain those relationships with the community that follows you. But, but I think it's, it's an important conversation to talk about, you know, where we are today as, as content creators and as podcasters. And, and I was hoping to tap into your kind of experience on that path, right? So when you started in 2011, it was quite different. I'm sure when you started, you were seeing the world from a different lens, right? But now How do you contrast how you started as a podcaster and where you are now? I mean, what has kind of, in a general sense, what has been kind of the red thread of that to some degree and how has that meandered over the years? I know that's probably a hard question to ask, but it just, I mean, is it evolving from the standpoint of your own kind of understanding of the kind of content that you're creating or would you say your own personal development, or is it a combination of the two?

Definitely a combination. I mean, I started podcasting when I was 16, so even just my voice has changed, right? It doesn't sound the same as when I was 16.

It's gotten deeper, maybe.

Yeah, it's got a little deeper. It's not Rob deep, but it's like a little deeper than it used to be. Believe it or not, I realize how high my voice sounds in comparison to yours. So nobody's going to mix up our voices. Like if you're listening, you know, to it as an audio show, it's very clear. You know, sometimes you're listening, you're like, wait, whose voice is what? Me and Rob? That's That's pretty stark differences. But I think there is so much that have changed. I mean, the tech, the not just like the actual technology out there because mics, things haven't changed too much in that time. I see we're both using the same mic tonight, but that so much has changed. I think with companies like StreamYard and having so many more options out there to support podcasters, there was a lot of other companies that go back that far, even back to like, you know, when you were starting. But it's not like it is today. And I think I also didn't know how to access those back, back then. Um, my very old school just was like, okay, I struck up a deal with Squarespace, and then they were like, all right, great, well, if you promote us, we'll comp the website and all that. So I was like, oh, this is great. And they're like, you know, if you get someone to sign up, we'll give you X amount of dollars. And it wasn't a lot, but I was like, oh my gosh, like as a 16-year-old, I could make about. Make money from doing this too and still make money from doing it from my bedroom. Um, so I think that was a big part that was just, you know, you had to figure it out. Like I just created the website and figured out, I was like, what is an RSS feed? How do I figure out what it is and make sure it's all there? And how do I submit that to iTunes back in the day? Um, and now it's just so different because you can use all these platforms that basically just do your podcast hosting for you and everything is set up correctly and they kind of handhold you through it with all the little prompts of submitting yours. I still find Apple Podcast is really annoying to submit to though. I'm launching a new podcast I'm involved with on Monday and many hours yesterday just, okay, it needs this, it needs that, where Spotify was just one button. So it was just kind of, you know, I don't know if you've, you know, kind of experienced that recently, but it's how, how do they make it so hard? I'm like, especially I've just seen Spotify becoming such a leader in the field. I'm like, Apple, you gotta compete. You got to make it easy. Um, but I don't know, going back to kind of what you said, like, I think there's so much in the personal development too that I've learned that I used to hate public speaking, but when I was doing a podcast with my good friends, I'm like, well, it's just us chatting and I can edit. And then over time of just doing it, I think I've become a better public speaker and I actually enjoy it. And it's a part of my career now too, um, including in-person speaking gigs. So it's just completely transformed me, and I think it's been the way that I have become who I am and career-wise. And so much is all back to podcasting. Every job I've gotten goes back to podcasting, if they heard me on this show, and, you know, then I landed this job. And, um, so it's just been such a rewarding experience over the years, but also to see all those changes and be like, wow, I've seen how much I've changed in 13 years. And I'm like, What's the next 13 years like, right?

Yeah, exactly. Well, and you've done some other podcasts too. I saw in your, in your background that you did, you know, a couple of shows on some other science topics. And I think that's an interesting kind of common thread that you have in your, in your podcasting is that you really focused on one kind of broad genre and that's kind of science, right? Yeah. And where does that come from? So why did you think that science was going to be the pathway here?

So that's kind of sort of how I got into podcasting. So I had heard a show and I've given him shoutouts many times, Andrew Sims and Company, that I found out that they were only about 5 years older than me and I was like, oh, I could figure out a show. And after kind of figured out podcasting for a year with a Hunger Games show, which now is relevant again because there's a new book and movie coming out next year in the following So like, do I restart the show? Probably not. But once I kind of figured that out, I was like, well, career-wise, genetics was always fascinating to me since I started learning about it in middle school. And I was like, well, if I have a genetics show, maybe people will actually take informational interviews with me. Because otherwise, they're not taking an informational interview from a high schooler. It's kind of like, just wait till you're in college. So it was kind of an excuse of if I say, oh, I'm going to interview you on a podcast, they're more likely to be like, oh, I'll do that versus, hey, I'm a high schooler and I'm just interested to learn a little bit. So that was kind of a way that I got into it and then was able to learn about different genetic careers by interviewing people on this genetic show, as you said, called DNA Today. And I started that in 2012, so only a year into podcasting, and I'm still doing it today. So we're reaching 12 years in the fall. So it's just been a great way. And through the show, I've gotten 2 degrees in genetics, a bachelor's and a master's. I've been working in the field. So, and I've been able to launch a bunch of other science shows for different clients too. So I kind of thought, all right, well, I'll use podcasting as a tool to grow my genetics career. I didn't think genetics and podcasting would meld to become my career, at least at this point. So, um, that was surprising, but a really good surprise. I love talking about genetics.

And I think the timing on topics is so important too, and I think you, you tapped into a good timing, uh, getting a show launched. I mean, because you do hold a Master of Science degree in human genetics. And so, you know, you've really focused on your credentials being around genetics and things like that. So you have a very respected background going into this, right? Which probably helped you a lot, but it also enabled you to kind of expand your influence and expand your knowledge too, because I'm sure you had on guests that could help expand your perspective and it forces because I went through this too when I started podcasting because I took on a topic that I really didn't have any expertise in and that was technology and the internet and the web back in the early days and I used the podcast to really learn about technology and about the internet because back in those days when I started, a lot of people didn't have a lot of knowledge about what the internet was and what technology was. So it sounds like you've really invested a lot of time in your education which set you up to be kind of seen as an expert on this. And it sounds like you've been able to tap into that. And I think there's definitely a takeaway from that for people out there. You know, people, people respect people that have credentials and, and they will follow people that they, they trust. And credentials sometimes equals a higher level of trust. I don't know. Would you agree with that?

Definitely, Rob. Yeah, I think even just the first sponsor we got through DNA Today was like 6, 7 years into the show because that wasn't my priority.

Right.

And it happened because I was getting my master's. So I had already had, you know, one degree in genetics, but my master's is a little bit more closely tied to genetic counseling, which is more the area within genetics that I work. And I am a certified licensed genetic counselor that sees patients 2 days a week as well. So like I'm in both worlds in that sense. And it wasn't until I was halfway through my master's, it's a 2-year program, where we got that first sponsor. And it was someone just reaching out being like, "Hey, how much are ads?" And I'm like, "How much? I don't know. How much is an ad? What do I say?" And fake it till you make it is very much, I think, how I've gotten to this point. But I think if I hadn't pursued my master's, I wouldn't have been seen as much of a leader in the field because once I graduated, a lot changed and I, I kind of saw that I was a little bit more respected in that way and that that's when the sponsorship really started picking up, which was, you know, really encouraging to be like, wow, okay, we are seeing— like, I've been doing this for so long without a ton in the beginning of like feedback from the community, recognition, things like that. But I was like, well, I just really enjoy it and I love networking. And I'm growing my career. So even if the show didn't take off the way it did, I was still gaining so much. And as you said, just learning. Like, when I'm interviewing someone, you are locked in. Like, nothing else exists. You're focused on it. You're like, I hope for no edits. Like, definitely not tonight because we're live. But when you're doing interviews, you're like, you're really trying to focus and you're taking it in so much more than when I listen to a lecture passively. So I think there's just so much in that learning sense. And that's how I was wanting to start this to begin with, to be like, you know, what kind of genetic testing exists? Let me learn about genetic conditions. What careers are there in genetics? And that's what I set out to explore for myself and then took listeners on the journey with me. So that's kind of been a good way to, like, learn about it. And as we can see here, Rob is very savvy pulling up our website.

Right. Yeah, it was always a good time to bring it up. You know, and especially you were talking about a component of this that really fits with trying to expose people to seeing what you're doing with your website and what the topics are. And I think it's really interesting. I'm not quite sure why it did that at the top.

Yeah, you're really trying to highlight we are award-winning. Thank you, Todd.

Yes.

Todd Cochran, your co-host on New Media Show.

Oh, is he commenting here? Okay.

No, just that it's the Podcast Awards so that he's hosting every year and everything there at the top there.

Right. Oh, yeah, I wasn't seeing it. So. Okay. Yeah. Well, you're an award-winning podcaster, right?

Yeah.

So, so I would flaunt that as much as you can because that's all about building credibility.

Definitely. And we do. As you can see, it's front, front and center on the website.

So, yeah, it's like saying, well, other people have validated that what I'm doing is good work. So, you know, come join me. That's the message that it's sending to audiences. So as you think about your path here of growing an audience, what do you think was the most important aspect of that process of growing an audience? Was it just being regular? Was it the kind of topics you tried to focus on? What do you think it was that really, really developed your following and built your community, do you think?

I mean, beginner podcasters are not going to want to hear this, but I think it is longevity. I think that we were putting episodes out on a regular basis at the beginning and then over the years ramped it up. So now we're a weekly show, but I didn't start that way because, as you know, weekly shows are really hard to keep going. Yeah, especially we're not live, so it's coordinating with the guests, editing, making sure every Friday morning on the East Coast there's a new episode being released. And since January of 2021, we have not missed a week. So before that, we weren't— we were doing like 2 a month. And then I was like, all right, I'm now like, you know, done with school. I'm just working. So, you know, just doing a full-time job in this, right? So that's easy to do. But being able to say, all right, I can really lock it down and doing some testers of like some months where we would do 3 3 episodes instead of 2. Um, so kind of just figuring it out in that sense. But I think just having so many years behind us has helped, and just that stick-to-itiveness that I've had of like, just keep going, just keep producing it, and just enjoy it, and don't feel like it's totally work. Like, do episodes that I want to do and things that I want to explore.

Yeah, yeah. And I've got up on the screen your YouTube presence as well. And YouTube is an important part of this show and what I'm doing here as well. And so, you know, on the video side, let's talk about that really quick.

Yeah.

How long have you been experimenting of sorts with the video side? Because most podcasters kind of view it that way. It's like, I'm going to do video, but it especially if you've done audio mainly in the past, it's almost like this grand experiment, right?

Oh my gosh, exactly. I mean, I so was like, I am not a YouTuber. Like, I'm not a video person. I'm audio. I'm not looking at the camera. I'm, I'm writing down notes. I'm, you know, so it was a thing where I was like, okay, I'm clearly in podcasting for the long haul. I'm gonna have to do video. And it was so reluctant. I did not want to do video. I was like, editing video now— we're going to edit video separate from audio because audio you can manipulate so much more of taking out filler words if needed. I mean, I stopped editing that way a long time ago. I'm like, whatever filler words I'm saying are going in there. But it was a— it was definitely a struggle at the beginning of just, okay, how are we figuring out that flow? Because when you go from just an audio show Now video, you've got way bigger, larger files. The editing process is different. Now you're uploading on YouTube, and there— I know there has been changes, and you know a lot more, Rob, than I do, I would guess, about just YouTube and the podcasting space. The last, what, 2 years or so, they've kind of been immersing themselves a little bit more. But there also was that thing of like, well, all my stats are not going to be centralized anymore. When someone hits play. And I know you recently did an episode like, oh, are we calling it a download anymore? Right? So download, stream, that, you know, now if they are watching the video, those are different numbers. So now I constantly have to go back to sponsors and be like, well, this is how this episode did video and then the audio and put them together. And then it also starting, we started a YouTube and then we're posting full episodes with a static background. So basically a picture of like the guest and the name of the episode. Episode or something, right? So it's not moving, but you can hit play. And because YouTube is such a good search engine, so even before we were doing that, I was like, well, let's get the catalog up on there. And, you know, after a couple years, we caught up to the hundreds of episodes we had. And, um, but it's, it's been a shift. But it also, I think now that I've been doing video for, I don't know, maybe 3 years or so now, um, now I'm used to it. And it's like, oh, I feel like it's also okay if I am, you know, during the episode looking at the camera and then I jot down. No, it's like Yeah, you're kind of getting the insider view of the studio and how it works. That's how I try to think of it. Um, but yeah, I was, I was quite reluctant. I, I— it's like it's just a whole nother world. And, and I'm, I'm excited to see how YouTube changes and everything with podcasting. And now I think Spotify, now you can not host directly through Spotify with whatever their hosting service is called that's escaping me. Megaphone, maybe? Or is it different now? I can't remember.

Well, they— if you're talking about publishing video, yeah, you actually do that through, really, through Spotify for Podcasters. So you actually can upload video to an account that you could create on Spotify through the Podcasters for— Spotify for Podcasters platform. But Recently they announced the ability to replace your audio files that are delivered through RSS with a video file if you want to. And what they'll do is they'll pull the audio out of the video and host that on their platform and take the video and they'll host that. And then that audio episode that you gave them through your hosting platform basically disappears. Wow.

So then do you still get the numbers in your RSS feed in terms of— see, that I don't want to mess with.

Just one download is all you get through that. Or as long as the audio is in there, right, you can go in and then replace that MP3 file. So you could go in and replace it a month after you've published it, right? And it would have been in Spotify for some period of time until you replaced it.

Right, right. But I feel like it's important to see how episodes perform over time. And well, it is. Yeah.

So if you want to be on Spotify and this is up to, up to podcasters, is, is I would just create a Spotify for Podcasters account separate from your RSS feed delivery to Spotify and just publish your videos.

Oh, that's a good idea. And then tell people if you're looking to watch this on Spotify, just be on the other channel.

Correct.

Yeah.

Yeah. And because that's essentially what they're trying to do is they're trying to be able to get audio and video out of your video, right? Right. So to have both and to host both. So I don't know that Spotify really wants to have RSS delivered content. It's almost a little bit like what YouTube is doing right now. But YouTube kind of goes directly.

Yeah.

Yeah. It is a little bit of a different process, but it's the results are kind of the same, but it just has a different publishing process. But, but it, you know, YouTube and Spotify are accepting RSS feed delivery of audio files, but ultimately they, they would actually prefer video. So it's, it's just one of those things, you know, we're in a little bit of a state of flux on that. But, you know, I could do a whole show just on what's going on there.

And well, you please do it and then send me it so I can, I can understand all of this more because as we talk about, it's like, you know, I've been in the field for some time. You've been in it double the amount of time that it's just, it, it changes so rapidly. And it's interesting for me because I'm in two fields that change very rapidly, genetics and podcasting. So it's hard to keep up with both. I mean, you can't— like, you can kind of learn things, but I would never be like, oh yeah, I'm up to date on everything. Like, clearly, right?

Well, yeah. I mean, I think that the podcasting landscape and being a content creator and, and part of that thinking that I have about being a content creator is that it does kind of open your mind to thinking about other content-related issues, right? Other than just podcast-related issues, because I think, you You can be siloed into that thinking right now when really thinking about video is completely different. And I also struggle with it too, because I think most podcasters either approach either medium from a prioritization standpoint. And so when I say prioritizing, most content creators will think of themselves more as a video creator. Or they'll think of themselves more as an audio creator. And then the other side of that is the opposite media, which is either audio or video. But that's like secondary to your priorities because it's difficult to, I think, to properly promote and market a strategy that has both.

It is.

And it's difficult because when you make social posts or you share online, I mean, it's difficult to share like 4 URLs at the same time, you typically prioritize whether you want to be an audio podcast or you want to be a video podcast, and you kind of promote one or the other. I tend to promote a lot of video because I do a lot of live, which drives me towards promoting more on the video side. So that's the challenge on that side for me. But But I also wanted to talk to you too about kind of your perspectives on DNA and genetics. I mean, I have some stock in CRISPR, which is the—

All right, nice.

The DNA editing technology that's happening out there. And, you know, it's a little controversial, I have to say, about what the implications of that is. But I did want to touch on that a little bit and just talk about kind of what's happening with the science of DNA and genetics right now. And I mean, not spend the whole show doing that, but just to kind of get a snapshot of where we are with that and how that's developing. Is CRISPR going to be a thing, or is that company just going to flounder like it has been over the last couple of years?

Oh, no, it's a thing, Rob. I hope you've invested in maybe one of the companies behind this that at the end of 2023, there's the first FDA-approved treatment for a condition, a genetic condition, using the CRISPR technology. And that's for sickle cell. So it is a condition that affects a lot of people. Um, it's a blood condition that can cause pain crises that are just absolutely terrible and debilitating. And I don't personally have sickle cell, but I interviewed the person that was the first person essentially cured by CRISPR. Um, yeah, it was episode— it was such a good interview that I was like, hey, right, right before we started recording, I was like, look, how long do you have? Because I, I wanted to cover so much with her. And her name is Victoria Gray. And so we ended up doing, uh, part 1, part 2. So episodes 288 and 289, um, they're the recent episodes, so you don't have to go back that far. Um, came out in May. That, um, it's just astounding that there was a big landmark paper about CRISPR, this gene editing technology that came out in 2012, and that's when DNA Today, my podcast, started. So now in 2024, to be able to interview someone that has— again, the way she phrases it is, you know, she doesn't have any symptoms from this, her genetic condition. I mean, I cannot believe that I'm still barely but still in my 20s to see this. I didn't think I'd see this until my later years towards retirement. Maybe that's a pessimistic view. But the fact that we have this technology that we're already using to change people's lives is just incredible. Um, it's, it's just mind-boggling. And it was just really enlightening to hear her story leading up to it, and then what the experience was of receiving this genetic editing. Um, and like how her life has transformed today and being able to keep up with all her kids and everything. So Um, yeah, it is happening.

So when a person goes under this kind of, kind of treatment, I'm assuming that you're, you're injected with something into the bloodstream and that goes in there and, and basically starts to target a specific gene, right, that's in your, your genetic structure, and it either replaces it or it somehow fixes it, right?

Yeah, yeah. So for Victoria Gray and others that have been treated, cured since, um, their bone marrow has to be removed. So you're very immune compromised, um, so you have to be very, very careful for a little bit. And then you basically get a bone marrow transplant, but it's from your own cells. So they took your bone marrow out, and basically the way I phrase it is not scientifically accurate, but it's more fun— CRISPR them up. So basically we edit that person's cells so that they're able to either have the corrected gene, like you said, or turn on a gene that's going to compensate for it, somehow change their genetics so that they won't have the symptoms they were having, and then give that back to the person. So it's like a self-transplant. Oh, okay.

So yeah, what's— so you pull cells out of the body and then you run some genetic modification kind of formula on, on those cells, and then you re-inject them back into the body. Again.

Exactly. That's at least how they did it for sickle cell. For other conditions, that might be different, but bone marrow is basically cell zero for all the blood cells that come after that, um, and other cells in the body too. But so because of— because sickle cell is a blood condition, that's the way that that works for that condition. So we're going to see it be delivered differently for different disorders depending on, okay, what is affected in the body. But blood is a little bit more straightforward than other conditions. Like, we can't just take someone's lungs out and somehow change the tissue. Like, that's a little bit more, you know, uh, complicated in that sense, more involved. Like, I don't really see how we're there yet. Um, but it's, it's so exciting that it's like— I mean, CRISPR has been something that I've talked about a lot on the show in the last 12 years, and it's just like, to talk to someone that's been cured using this technology that I've just been talking about. How are we going to use it? When is it going to happen? It's like, it's, it's, it was such a landmark experience for me to be able to talk to like the first person in the world too, and that she's just so lovely. Yeah.

Yeah. Is there any aspects of, of that technology that is, you know, maybe untested at this point, or is there any aspect of it that people should be apprehension, you know, scared of might be a more simpler way.

Yeah.

Aspect of it that people should be concerned about that technology, or is it still too early to actually know that?

No, there's definitely concerns that have already been explored and we need to continue exploring. So I think one thing is, I don't know if you remember, I think it was the end of 2018, I want to say, when there was a doctor out of China, and I'm not naming him on purpose because I don't want him to get more fanfare. Um, but he basically took embryos, uh, kind of like up here. There's actually a picture of an embryo, I'm realizing. So took a cell in an embryo and, um, basically edited the embryos like we're talking about, but you're actually editing something that will become a human where they could pass on those edits to future generations. Now you compare that to what we just talked about with Victoria Gray. We're changing her bone marrow. Even if she had more children, that's not being passed down to other generations because you're not affecting her eggs. So there's a big difference between editing someone's cells versus cells that include eggs, sperm that we're going to continue seeing in the human population. So introducing new changes to the human race that what if you mess up? Right. And there you think you're, you're pinpointing one gene and changing it, but really you did a different gene or you ended up doing a few genes and it just kind of becomes very scary in that sense. And that term is called off-target effects because it's off the target you're looking for. One of the few genetic concepts that I think actually makes sense by the title. But and it's not named after some doctor, right? But yeah, there's definitely a lot of concerns with that. And then you know, a lot of people bring up like designer babies. Like, is that something where we're going to start saying, well, I want to have a child with brown eyes and red hair, and, you know, I want them to have this IQ, I want them to be as tall as Rob Greenlee is? Are we gonna get to that point? We can do some of those things, but it's more of statistically, oh, are they more likely to have this or that? Um, but we'll get to a point where more of that is available, and it becomes that hard line figuring it out of what is considered cosmetic versus what is considered— or vain, or on any of these things, right— versus what is health-related. Like, is deafness, is that truly a disability or is that a difference? And people in the deaf community would say, this is part of who I am. Yeah. And other people would say, well, that's a sense that you don't have, and that's something that you don't have that an average person does. But there's so many different ways of viewing something whether it is truly a health challenge versus something that is just different. You know, there's some things that obviously, like childhood cancer or something, where we're like, no one wants that, right? No, we want to prevent that. But there's other things that are gray.

So in, in your podcast, do you explore things like, um, you know, uh, you know, things like a Neuralink kind of things at all? Are you venturing into the changes that that could cause in the human body too?

We're mostly focused on more what genetic research is happening now and like what the testing is available and different careers and conditions. Um, we are focused on technology, but more on like the genetic side, like this CRISPR that we've been talking about and stuff. But I would be intrigued I'm sure one of my shows it would fit in, you know.

So, well, so what's the spectrum of shows are you doing right now? I mean, how many different shows and, and what's your thinking on that? If you, you know, you're doing this main show, the DNA show, but how is that working to have a variety of other shows? What's the reason for that?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just been so— I've learned so many skills in doing DNA Today. And obviously, you know, I think the show's gotten much better over the years, as you hope any project that you're working on for a long time does. And over the years, I've had people approach me and say, well, oh, I kind of looking to start a podcast, like, could I hire you to be part of this? And, and so that's how I've ended up being involved in a lot of these other shows. So a lot of shows in the rare disease space. Um, I have two specific 3 on Monday in the rare disease space. And then I recently also produced, kind of started, and they are now kind of launched. They have left the nest of podcasting. I've taught them what I know. But the Journal of Genetic Counseling wanted to start a podcast and reached out and said, hey, can you help us figure this out and stuff? So really, really humbling and cool to be like, wow, they're reaching out to me to do this. This is amazing. And these are people that I've looked up to. Of just, you know, in the, in the field and career. But I think it's ways that I also can shake things up for myself a little bit and say, you know, wow, like, this is a different way of doing a show, or this is a different approach, or this is a different audience we're trying to reach. Many of these shows are interview-based, but even the Journal of Genetic Counseling one, there's two segments to the show. I don't normally do that. And each segment has an author from a recent publication in the Journal of Genetic Counseling that comes on and talks about their article. So it's very focused because it's like, all right, it's 15 minutes to talk about this article. And then figuring out which segments are going together to say, well, this is, you know, oh, we have an episode focused on cancer or pregnancy, you know, or neuro area, right, or cardiac. So it's just been a cool way to also feel a little bit more creative too, because I'm always doing that through my main show DNA Today. But right, being able to start a new show, you're like, all right, the name of it, the theme song, it's really energizing to be with a team that you're starting a new show, right? Just like, I don't know if you've been, uh, every week doing this show, but 33 episodes ago, you know, when you're planning this, you're like, wow, okay, where do I want to go with this? What branding do we want? Figuring that out, figuring out your logo. Um, copy language. Like, that's— it's the fun beginning part. Um, so I, I really like being involved with that. And not every show is science, but I definitely do tend to get those kinds of clients because they're like, well, also, if we interview someone and we're not sure, like, you could be a guest host. So I also kind of become what they need. So sometimes I'll only guest host, or I only produce. So it's fun to bounce around and do different projects.

I would imagine that it's energizing to, because this was the same thing with me with the early days of the internet, was being at the cutting edge of something that's emerging. And certainly DNA and genetics and things like CRISPR or whatever are kind of at the cutting edge of societal acceptance and societal understanding. You know, I've noticed a certain amount of fear around a CRISPR-type technology, about how that could change our society and our culture and human beings just in general. And I'm just positive that that is kind of living in that realm just like I did back when the internet was still new and fresh and people just were kind of a little bit mystical about it in some ways. Really coming at it from a position of lack of knowledge, which is where you come in, is to kind of fill them in on the facts and the details. Just like I asked you about, you know, where are we around safety of this kind of technology? And I think people need to be reassured and people need to be really talked to in a way that they can understand what's going on. And so it doesn't create this environment of fear, not unlike what happened with the internet and in the early days of that. You know, I do look back on the early days of talking about the internet and what was happening with it with wireless and mobile and things like that, which I was talking about those topics very early, not realizing at the time that how big of an impact that was going to have on society. Because when I was talking about it, it was more like, you know, it was in the movies and it was, you know, cyberspace and science fiction aspects. All this stuff was what was kind of fun and cool, and there was X-Files and these hackers and all this stuff like that. But then it got, you know, 10 years later, it got real, you know, and changed everybody's life in a dramatic way. And in some ways in a negative way.

Definitely.

So I can see some correlation between what you've been through over the last few years around technology like this and helping people kind of see it for what it is. But are you worried that maybe you're promoting something that may have implications that maybe you can't even predict right now?

I don't know if I would use the term promoting with it because I think a lot of it is exploring and like, yeah, like seeing kind of both sides. Because we even did an episode recently with a prominent bioethicist, Dr. Arthur Kaplan, episode 290, and we talked about like ethics in genetics. Like, that's just what the episode was. We kind of— it was a very conversational show talking about it and of just so much of what we need to be considering and talking about. And it's it's being able to explore that and having a platform that does that.

Yep.

And invites those conversations and has people on the show with differing viewpoints with this. And what do we need to consider? And even just different backgrounds. If they've worked in cancer a lot, that's what they're going to be focused on. They worked in prenatal, they're going to be focused on, right, these designer babies or something or whatever kind of goes with that, or how we're going to be doing newborn screening differently in the future. Are we going to start doing sequencing everybody's genome? So all of their genetic information right when they're born? Like, I think that's going to happen someday. It's a matter of like when, not if. Yeah, but I think being able to explore this and be an independent podcast doing it, I think it would be different if it was one company producing the show and like, oh, well, they've got this, you know, technology that they're trying to promote. Right, right. Whereas, yes, we have over 70 sponsors of the show. But it's not like one person owns anything. They don't get to tell me what to say. They can say, oh, can we cut this part out? Like, our CEO kind of— the way they explained this wasn't as accurate, or they said something that's not public information, can we take that out? Sure, that happens, right? We want to make sure. Um, or we— I say autosomal recessive instead of dominant and I just flub, right? Like, obviously we're going to edit that. But the fact that everything I can say whatever I want, like, I, you know, and so I think that is a huge part too, that we're independent. Yes, we're supported by all these companies, but I accept or decline sponsorships all the time. So there's certain ones that for whatever reason is not a fit for us, or it's a conflict of interest because I also see patients. So it all, it all kind of depends. But I think that's a more unique aspect because a lot of the podcasts out there, especially ones that get as many downloads as us in our little genetic space, it's not going to hit your numbers. But, you know, in our little space, I'm like, those are big numbers. That it— that has quite an impact on how many people are listening in the field. So it's a unique position to be able to be in. And a privileged position because I get to bring attention to things that— and have these conversations that thousands of people then are going to listen to. So it's a cool spot to be in.

Yeah. No, I think you're in a terrific spot because you're in— you're becoming a kind of a spokesperson, a representative of a significant technological trend. And movement in the industry that you never know, 10 years from now could have major impacts on millions of people's lives. And it's— that can either be good or bad.

Right.

I'm hoping it's good. But, you know, like from my experience with the internet and the web, there's always two sides to technology. Yeah. People— technology inherently is not bad. It's how it's used.

Same as science, right? It's how we use it. And even when you were explaining like, you know, the internet, Y2K, like, you know, all of that time period, I feel like we're experiencing it again, which with AI, everything you said, I kept thinking this is what I feel with AI because I was kind of, I feel like I was at the perfect age to grow up without social media being what it is today. And that you didn't just— everybody had a phone and an email, whatever. Like, I remember getting my email address like late middle school, kind of like, okay, I'm getting set up with this. And, you know, so it wasn't what it is today. But that the way you describe it is how I feel about AI. Like, this is going to change our lives. It's happening so fast. The tools that are coming out, even just in our space in podcasting, is wild. And I can do work so much faster and more efficiently than I used to. But I also get concerned about there's hundreds of hours, if not maybe 1,000 hours of me talking on the internet and more for you. So thousands of hours for you. How is that going to impact us? I've warned family members, if you get a call from me talking about— and I don't even want to say phrases, right? Because then they're going to use that. But I'm sure they can. Piece together things that I've said, or they take enough of the voice and then write a script, right? That's something that us podcasters need to be protective of and have security questions and passwords with our family, because that's something I'm really concerned about. I, I have grandparents that I tell them all the time, I'm never going to call you for money. If I'm ever in a spot, I'm calling my parents. I'm not calling you guys. So, you know, it's like we joke about it, but I'm also like, unless we're saying—

Don't give me money ever.

Yeah, don't give me money ever. No, no, no. Give my parents money. They could pass along. But it's something that podcasters, I think, really need to be aware of because our voice is out there and it's public. And even videos of us now, as, you know, video podcasters or content creators or whatever. So that's something that I'm very aware of. I'm excited about it, but I'm also really scared about it. It's both.

Well, I would imagine that you're, you're probably increasingly thinking that, uh, AI could come into the DNA and genetic space too, I would think.

Yeah, already is in some interesting ways. We've done some episodes just of how can we use AI to kind of go through a lot of data, right, of genetic data and everything. So there's— yeah, it's just that in itself is hard to keep up with of just how is AI impacting all these different areas of our lives.

Yeah, because I would imagine that a very powerful supercomputer running AI is going to be able to analyze the huge amount of genetic data on each one of us much more effectively than, than a doctor could. Right. So, and, and that's increasingly coming to the medical profession, too, is, you know, analyzing our DNA is going to translate into being able to maybe solve long-term health problems. And yeah, and AI may be able to do that much more accurately and much quicker than any other process.

Yeah, it can at least speed it along so that then a human can kind of confirm the end part.

Yeah.

So it's like, at least that's how I hope it's being used right now. And of the companies I've talked to in the genetic space, that's how they are using it, to like prioritize aspects of the data they should look at first that might be the cause of a symptom or something like that. But it is, uh, I mean, podcasting just in itself with AI, it's like you've got this video dubbing now where you can go back into video and edit, and you can literally type in whatever phrase and it will add it in there. And I'm just like, I, I don't know, it's like I almost sound like a boomer being like, I can't believe we can do this. That's crazy.

Though I use those tools and I, I find I don't really do that. I, I probably spend more time removing words than I do.

Yeah. But sometimes you need a transition word or something or like You know, I'll have a client that's like, well, could you add in you saying this? And I'm like, well, kind of not really. But like now I'm like, oh, well, maybe I kind of can. I'm like, I could rerecord me saying it, but it's not going to be with the guest and all that. Yeah.

Right, right. So as you think about it now, because you really started around a very narrow niche in podcasting in the very early days, probably before there was a lot of attention being given to genetic research, really, I think it was probably in its infancy to some degree of I mean, it was there already. It's just the public awareness, right? Because I'm not sure when CRISPR went public, but there's just been this gradual buildup of awareness that you've been— it's almost like riding a wave, right? So you find a topic that, or a niche that you can just kind of ride the wave into the future. And it was the same thing I did with my 7-year radio show is I just picked a niche that was growing and developing that needed to be explored, right, and shared with large groups of people. And that's exactly what you're doing here. Because I think, as you look to the next 5 to 10 years, more people on this planet are going to be thinking about genetics increasingly. I think it's definitely top of mind. You know, I mean, all of us can get our genetics tested right now with— was it the—

Like the direct consumer? Ones that make it easy.

The, what's it, the 23andMe?

Yep, 23andMe, AncestryDNA. There's a lot of them that you just, you know, spit and send it off.

So what's your, what's your view on those? I mean, should all of us be getting that done, or is there some risk to our, our privacy there?

Yeah, I think it's both. I think in terms of doing it, there is that concern of, well, what are these companies doing with the data? How is it protecting right? Um, I was watching— not that this has to— this company is the same, but in terms of data security, I'm sure you remember all over the news, whatever year that was, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, Ashley Madison being hacked. And that was just— I mean, that exploded like globally. And, um, it was kind of, from my view, like an inappropriate dating website, for those that aren't aware. Um, and very, very private information in these databases. Even just signing up, the fact that you sign up is, you know, um, not a good look for a lot of people, especially that, you know, have some kind of presence in career. And any— like, you have to look at companies to be like, what are their security? Like, how protected are they? Like, what are they set up for? So I think that's part of it, because if you feel comfortable with of the company and how they're using that, and you do your research, you're like, okay, great, yes, this sounds good. But keeping in mind, well, what does that data security look like? And then also, I think these companies are great for certain things. If you're looking for information about your genetic ancestry, they're really good, um, and they've gotten better for non-European countries in recent years. We still have a long way to go to close that gap, But for me, having mostly Irish ancestry, not only does it say what— I forget, 30, 40% Ireland— it will break it down to be like, you're mostly from East Cork, Ireland. And that lines up with the stories on my paternal lineage. That's what I was always told. East Cork family has been there, met people that were very distantly related to. Um, so it gets as specific for some people as the county, which is really cool. There is some health information with some of these as well, but you have to know what it includes and what it doesn't include. So I think that's a big part that people are like, oh, well, I did it and I have nothing bad in my genetics. And I'm like, well, there's no test that looks at everything in your genetics, even in the medical space. So I think it's just understanding what did it test for, what did it not test for. And then I think it's useful as long as you understand those aspects and you feel comfortable with that information, because some of it you might not want to know. Doing some of these ancestry tests, you might realize your dad is not your dad. That— we heard this happen a lot in genetics. Non-paternity is actually more common than people think. So it's, it's interesting. But I think as long as you're understanding that, more power to you. Is my view on it.

Yeah, yeah, I think that there's some risks on that, but also I think I've seen things written that share some concerns about the accuracy of the health predictions through this as well. You know, people are different, right? People's propensity to things, and it's probably hard to base it 100% on DNA, right? What are your, your lifestyle? What's your diet? Those kind of things.

And yeah, if it comes up with percentages, you're more likely to this or that, it's like I'll look at it and sometimes I'll look at the information about it and it's based on one single letter in my genome. And I'm like, all right, well, come back to me when you find 50 letters that all have a little tiny role in it. Then I'll feel a little more confident about that.. But for the most part, you know, you have to look at, well, what are they pulling from to get that?

Yeah. And I think that it's the combination probably of the genetic information in combination with key health markers. Right. Because I know that there's, you know, a lot of movement around functional medicine now, or a lot of medical doctors don't test for all of the medical blood tests that we should all have done to analyze. Right. To be able to predict certain types of diseases and directions that, that are going on in our bodies. But I'm starting to see these functional medicine doctors do like 500 different kind of blood tests on our body. So probably combining that with the genetic stuff is probably what we're going to see happen in the future, right? To get a real—

I can see that. Yeah, right. Yeah, especially because it's like your genetics is what you're born with, but obviously, as you're saying, like, there's a lot of things that environmental factors are gonna play a role. And so kind of looking at that is if you're inside all day and you're not really exposed to UV rays from the sun, but your genetics predisposes you to have skin cancer, well, that's not going to happen probably unless you're baking in the sun all the time.

Right.

And, you know, we, we live in the Northeast. And so that's also going to be different than if we lived in Florida. Right. And just in terms of different things, even with the same genetics. Um, so I think there's definitely something to be said for— there's that phrase nature versus nurture, but it's nature and nurture. It's, it's both of them together for most health conditions. There's certainly some that are just straight up genetics, like I mentioned sickle cell earlier. You're born and that's the genetic change and you will have those symptoms. But most of health is what you're saying, where it's like, it's such a combination, and why lifestyle and everything is so important, right? It's like we should be walking and eating healthy and, you know, sleeping and doing all these things that healthcare providers tell us to do.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And because I'm increasingly trying to look at myself like that, and I think eventually technology is going to enable us to have real-time monitoring of many of these things too, right?

We already have it a little bit. Like, I have an Apple Watch. It, you know, yells at me to get up and, you know, so, right? Yeah, we're, we're, we're Apple fan people here.

Um, and also Aura Ring too.

Oh nice, I've seen those and I was like, oh, you know those, those seem pretty interesting. Um, but it's like, I think we've just also been like collecting so much more data on ourselves in what, maybe the past 5 years than we ever have before. I mean, whether it's, it's sleep data of how you slept and your mattress is telling you, and then the watch, and like, you know, just so many different aspects of our health.

Yeah. So given kind of your, your process that you have for your own show, um, Is there anything that you can share with like maybe a new content creator that might be thinking about coming up with a show concept and thinking about their own life and what their life experience could bring to a podcast? Is there any kind of thought process? Because it sounds like you've recently created some new shows.

Yeah, yeah, I've been part of teams that have kind of created new shows and that's just been been so fun and, and really rewarding. And I think my main advice for people starting a show is something you mentioned earlier, Rob, is that like when you were coming up with your radio show, of finding a niche that is not too niche niche, but also not too broad. So for me, it was genetics. I was like, I could have gone science show. I also could have just picked a genetic condition or certain technology. I could have done a show just on CRISPR. Right. But I was like, well, that's going to be too kind of, you know, put myself in a corner, right? I don't know. Nowadays I'm like, well, I guess you could have a show just about CRISPR, but back 12 years—

you may have one eventually, and maybe I'll have one, right?

I'll look back and be like, Rob is the one that told me to have a CRISPR show.

And how crisp is that podcast, right?

Yeah, it's going to be crispy every whatever day it comes out, right? But figuring out that sweet spot for yourself And it's going to be different for everybody, but enough where there's going to be people interested in that certain topic, but that you can have episodes exploring things within that. If there's no topics, if there's no subtopics to your show, then it's probably too niche. Um, and I find that's a good place. And also, I think one of the things that a lot of people I work with and helping them start podcasts, they're like, oh, we recorded the first episode, let's go, let's release it next week. And from that smile, Rob, I know you're thinking the same thing. No, no, no, no. Bank a bunch of episodes and then launch because guests will cancel on you. You will have your own health and life come up. And there will also be times you're like, I don't know about the next episode, or who do I even have as a guest? If you have like an interview show or whoever is your editor or yourself, like it's just there are so many things that happen. So at any one time, I'm usually working on like 8 episodes of DNA Today. And as they get done, I kind of figure out when they're being released. They're definitely not released in the order I'm recording. And I pay attention to that. If I know an episode's already been published, I will reference it. But I won't reference it unless it's already, already been out there. But I think it's really being able to bank as much as you can. Like, I think it's smart to be 3 months ahead before you launch. And then you can hopefully keep up that little bank and just keep up that buffer so that you're not feeling the pressure of, I got to have an episode, I got to have an episode, because the consistency I think is really, really key. I think ideally you want to release— you know, I have some shows that release once a month that I work with, but I think if you're really looking to grow an audience, I would say at least twice a month. Weekly is great, but I feel like that's just too hard to start out weekly, if I'm being honest. But yeah, those are kind of thoughts I have of just starting new shows. And obviously pick something that you're interested in. Especially if you're doing it as a passion project. And, you know, as you probably also experienced early on your, you know, at least once you kind of shifted to podcasting that you can't start a show being like, well, this is going to be my moneymaker. That's great if it happens. But most of the time shows are not moneymakers and it's really about other things you're getting.

It takes a long time to get that built up. So yeah, get it up to a scale that you can.

Monetize. Yeah, no, definitely. I think that's very well said.

Yeah. So it's definitely a process, I think, starting a show right now that takes a lot of focus. And I think it takes really getting clear on what your goals are, what you're trying to accomplish, and also there's this tension. I did an episode of my Spoken Life series with a public radio creator out of Australia, and she was telling me about how there's this public radio tension where you come at a show from the perspective as that you're trying to reach a certain audience, and you're doing a show on a topic that you as the creator of the show really don't have any kind of experience in or knowledge of, and you basically just go out and you hire the talent to do that and you hire producers that maybe have a little more experience with that, but they're very contrived, right? Where if you think about a podcaster per se, those are usually passion-based, which means, or knowledge-based, just like with you and with me when I got into doing podcasts about podcasting, it really had nothing to do with me being an expert about podcasting. That I had many years of creating content on the radio, and that was the only relevant experience, which is very relevant foundation. Well, it is relevant in some ways, but I also felt a lot of tension because the views that I had about radio were not necessarily compatible with podcasting. You know, a lot of commercial breaks and all this kind of stuff was kind of contrary to this medium. Like you've noticed in this episode, there's no real commercial breaks, right? So it's basically a stream of thought and sponsorship isn't something that I'm tremendously worried about in this content. And I think that's another element of this too that one has to think about. Well, you know, how are you making your money? Is it from your job or is it, are you trying to make money from the podcast? And if you're trying to make money from the podcast, you probably have to go about it a little bit differently. Than you would if you were just doing it as a basically a supporting activity to your career. Right. And yeah, you've been able to meld it together.

So yeah, no, it's, it's, it's been surprising how it has picked up in that. Yeah, it is my primary income now. And so it is so different where it used to be like, oh, this is kind of just, you know, some extra money. I can also just pour it back into the show. Like, you know, what am I doing with it? Um, but I think a lot of people also will start podcasts because they're trying to promote their business, or they're trying to establish themselves as a thought leader, or they wrote a book or something else that they're trying to promote and lead people to. So I think that's really relevant. Like, I've started shows for companies that they're like, we just really want to be seen in the space and provide education, and that's the marketing that we want to be doing. By actually, instead of just having advertisements places, just be like, hey, we're gonna host these conversations and give you something, and then you know our name because doing it. Yeah. Um, or it's like that leads them to clients for their business or whatever. So I think there's a lot of ways that podcasting can be a tool in all of this instead of just making money from sponsorship directly. Or the, you know, and sponsorship can look so differently. Like, we have packages on DNA Today that, like, there are, um, you can obviously have those, you know, classic advertisements where it's like we have ad breaks. You can have a full episode interview that we're talking about some topic and kind of weaving in how you're helping in this space or something, but also newsletter features, social media giveaways. There's so much that once you package it all together, then it becomes very, you know, more lucrative in that sense. And also you're providing that company with so much. It's then like a 360 package in that sense. And that goes back to what you said at the beginning of like I identify primarily as a podcaster, but yes, I have to be in all these other spaces. But I'm in those other spaces, I'm promoting the show. So it's not that I'm like, oh, making amazing YouTube videos. It's okay, I'm recording this episode that's, you know, hopefully good audio. And if people want to watch me do it, great. But that, you know, I'm like, yeah, I, I want people to just listen to the audio because I'm like, you know, the video I, I find is not as exciting unless I had a crazy guest on, right? If I have Bill Nye on. Yeah, I want people to watch that video, right?

Yeah. I mean, I mean, you do have to think about that. And I know that you've been recently doing some of your shows from a, like an in-person studio down in Stanford, down in Connecticut.

Stanford, Connecticut. Yeah. At NBC Studios, which is like such a cool kind of flex almost too, to be like, oh, we have, this is our in-person studio. We record with NBC. Like, And that's been really cool because now we can offer that for sponsors that want to record in-person episodes. And if they're between Boston and New York, if they're somewhere in this area, then it's pretty easy for them to just take a train or, you know, more likely drive from Boston and do that. And the type of episodes you get and how the conversation flows in person is just so much better than online. If you know someone— like, we kind of know each other a little bit, so it flows so much better. But if we were just first meeting on this, I don't think this episode would flow as much as it has. But if we were in person, it'd be like, you know, even better in that sense, right? And I agree. And so I think it's, it's a cool thing. And then it's like, obviously you get really high quality work out of that because you have— at least for me, like, the NBC team is there. Like, there is someone, you know, talking, not in my ear, but the guy, you know, Stan— Sean is usually behind the camera, and Kristen's talking to him and being like, all right, we're switching these cameras, like, go in a little bit more on Kira. All right, span back. And she's back in whatever you call that, the little room next to us, doing the line cut and being like, all right, I'm choosing this camera because Kira's been talking for a little bit. All right, let's— she's referencing the guest. Let's do that. Kind of like what you've been doing during part of this where You know, when I talk too long, like right now, sometimes you switch the camera and stuff. So it's, it's cool and a very like, wow, I really do this. Like, I'm not just sitting in an office doing this in my house. I'm really in a studio. So it's also just so fun and you get really good pictures out of it too and stuff.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think we're seeing more YouTube shows that are, you know, may or may not be audio podcasts as well, doing it more in-person, people sitting facing each other and then there's a two-camera shoot that switches between views of the guest and the host, right? Or has a third camera that shows both of them together, right? So did you find that the episodes that you did in that studio that was using that functional technique got a little better views on the video side?

Yeah, definitely. I think even just the social media moments that we could do too, of just like little promo videos. You know, they perform much better in just the YouTube full-length videos, like the full episode interview also perform better. And I think one thing for me that was just so different was I couldn't have my second screen to glance at, right? Like I've mentioned episode numbers throughout this. That's because I'm cheating and I'm looking over to the side and I'm looking at the episode numbers. I don't have those memorized. There's very few I remember the episode numbers to. But when I record, when I'm the host, I have my Google Doc episode outline in front of me. I got the little intro script kind of thing. That's the only thing I script. And then a bunch of questions so that if I don't have one in the moment organically, I can look at it and be like, all right, I'll ask that next. And the outro, make sure I got the website right and all that. So I don't have to remember it. Obviously, you can use teleprompters and stuff, and I'm starting to kind of be better at that, but it's so different than how I've been doing it for 13 years. So that is— I'm still getting used to that. And a lot of it is I've just got little index cards in my lap and I try to see, yeah, when the camera's not on me, I'll try to glance down because I want it to seem like I'm not using cards, but it's like everybody probably knows I am. But, you know, just to kind of look at that next question. And also if I, if I'm working with a sponsor that they're like, you have to cover these things, I'm like, okay., then I can't just go with the flow of an interview and see what happens. Um, but I'm trying to get better at it. But, uh, it's definitely a whole nother skill set compared to your normal setup of— you're probably like me and have multiple screens and all this going on. So it's, it's so different in that sense. Or just being able to jot down notes in front of me to edit when I'm recording. I just add, oh, we messed up at 10 seconds, or, you know, 10 minutes and 20 seconds in. I'm not doing that there, so I have to go back and watch the whole episode over. Yeah, so it's definitely a whole different workflow, but it's so worth it. And And again, really fun to be able to like do it in person with someone.

Yeah. Well, yeah. Have you ever done an episode like live on stage at a conference or an event or something like that? Is that something you've thought about?

Yeah. So I've definitely done a lot of like, you know, talks and I've done interviews on stages. They were— they didn't end up being like DNA Today episodes, although they could have been. And I probably should have, you know, figured out the lapel mic. And I have one of those now and stuff or a set of them. Um, but yeah, I think that's something that I definitely want to do of like calling it a live episode of DNA Today. And sometimes the beginning I'll be like, this is kind of what the episodes are like, you know, and I say that. Um, but it is so different when it's, you know, when I'm talking about the studio recordings, there is no one there. It's just myself, you know, someone from our team maybe, and then the NBC team. Whereas when you're at a conference, you're getting the live feedback from people, you're seeing people's faces and even the questions they ask and So it's so much more engaging in that way because you probably feel this, that most of the stuff you do, even when it's live like this, it's not like you constantly have feedback. We're very one-way in that sense, that it's— for a lot of podcasters, they're like, I don't know, I see the numbers, but I feel like people aren't listening or they're not engaging or something like that. So it's, it's different when they're right in front of you and they kind of have to pay attention.

Yeah, it's always always unknown how much engagement you're going to have with a particular episode or that kind of thing too. But I agree with you 100% on the live on stage stuff, which I've done that with my New Media Show with Todd Cochran. We've done many, many live on stage events at Podcast Movement.

I was going to say Podcast Movement is coming up in August. Are you guys doing anything or is that maybe not public information yet?

It's not confirmed yet. I mean, I am doing some outreach to see if there's an availability of a spot to slot it in. But yeah, I mean, we've done it for probably 10 years at the event as well as done it at Podfest too. Nice.

That's the Orlando one usually?

Yeah, correct. Being up on stage is a different format, right? It's a different experience. You can take live questions from your audience. I think we've had as many as 500 people in the audience in the past at Podcast Movement, and, and also it being live streamed as well. So it's having that kind of convergence of lots of different, different ways of doing a podcast. And it does— it's very similar type of a show, and it's set up with the introduction and all that stuff like we do with our regular show, but, but it is a little different. It's more of an interactive thing, and sometimes it's hard to hear what, what my guests on stage are saying, because sometimes the environment is very noisy. So it's not as quiet as this episode is, right?

It's— yeah, but audio quality, it won't be as crisp.

Right. And it will be, you know, it would be energetic because the room is full of people and it's sometimes done in the same room as the exhibition.

So you have like the background noise, which sometimes can be cool. If it's, if it's certain amount, do you find those live episodes you're a better host guest than you are in this kind of setting? Because you're like amped up and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm in front of people, and you're like, I'm on one. And like, or are you more like nervous because you're actually in front of people versus your own home office setting?

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a little bit of both. I think that there's there's probably a little more butterflies getting up on stage and doing it live, but I've done it so many times now, you know, in so many panels and so many, you know, fireside chats type things or presentations.

It's just another day for Rob Greenlee.

It doesn't really, really make a huge difference on me, but it is just a different— it's a different production. It's a different experience. You know, it's been very difficult around getting quality content out of it too, because a lot of the venues don't always do a really great job with recording it, or somehow the audio gets corrupted, or—

Or it posts so much later and you're like, okay, this isn't relevant anymore.

Well, I try and take the episode out when I leave the event so I can post it to the RSS feed. Oh, that's helpful. That's what we use it for is we use it as a full episode on the audio and video side.

So. Right. Do you ever use your own mic to be able to record as well as the mic at the venue?

I do, actually.

That's probably the hack, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I do have a— it's a Numano recording device. It's got 4 lavalier microphones that— oh, nice— that record wirelessly. And so I just attach each of those lavaliers to each of the you know, Todd, myself, and the two guests. Yep. And we capture that audio, and that platform enables me to take the ambient sound of the room and remove it from the recording. So, wow, nice. So it has— so I get like studio quality recordings out of a noisy room with live people. So it actually turns out pretty good, actually. There's many episodes that I've published or panels that I've done, like I've moderated panels and done that also and taken that audio and been able to put it out as an episode.

Yeah, I'll have to test it next time. I just do like a speaking engagement or something. I'll have to test it out, make sure I've got it all down because it's like I have it. But I think that's really, really smart just to be able to have your own versions of it and to have it be directly to that. It's if it's a lavalier mic, then it's so close to the person's mouth too, whereas the other mics, you never know what the setup is going to be.

Yeah, that's true. And then, then I've also used a 360-degree video camera too, where I've, I've, I've set that up in the middle, like right in front of the panel and, and it records 360-degree view. So I can take that 360-degree video and import it into a tool and create like a, like an experience where it kind of like points to various speakers on the stage and then also points to the audience. Wow.

I feel like if you don't have it yet, you should have a little like Rob Podcast Tips Show starter kit of like, this is if you really are getting into podcasting, you got to get whatever mics you're talking about, this 360. I mean, that just sounds like, you know, people would have to do a lot of research to figure out what's the best. And like, you've probably already done all that.

Well, it's, it's not always perfect. I mean, there are always, always limitations. This camera is a 6K camera, so it captures everything around you.

So every wrinkle and pimple, right?

Right. Right. So you have to be careful in the post-production that you, you know, you get the right shots. But, but it's, but it is unusual to get the, the audience in the experience as well, especially if the audience like asks questions or something like that. You can kind of pan the video over to seeing them.

That's really cool.

Yeah. So it's always an interesting kind of production. I wouldn't say it's perfect, though. It does kind of distort the video a little bit because it's like creating a really up and down 360-degree view. So it's just a matter of pointing the video in a certain direction. Right. Is what you do in post-production. So, wow. But it's very cool. So I've been experimenting with a lot of different, different ways of doing this stuff. But I don't know if there's— is there anything else that you wanted to share about your podcast experience? I can just leave an open, open segment here for the last 10 minutes and—

yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm trying to think of like other, other things. I mean, a lot of people will ask about equipment like we were kind of talking about. Um, and we'll see if you agree on this, but I think a really good starter, Mike, if you're not sure what to do, is this Blue Yeti right here. Um, I, I have to say, I used this for 10 years, and I was making money as a podcaster when I was using it. Um, you just have to be in a very, very quiet environment because, um, you know, back when I was a kid podcasting, I'd be at my parents' house, and my brother couldn't be strumming his guitar in the same floor of the house, let alone playing his drums. You know, he's the musician in the family. But, um, so just you really have to have that. But it's great because even as you mentioned, it can be used in a lot of ways because of you've got options back here of, um, being able to just do it one way, um, of what mics are being picked up, or omnidirectional where you're kind of— you can put it in the middle of you and people. Um, so I think it's a really solid starter mic. I think once you get into things, we're both using the same mic, I think. Shure SM7B, is that what you're using?

Yeah, I've had this one since, uh, since 2009. Wow.

And they, and they really haven't changed. I got this one, I don't know, maybe 3 years ago, 2 years ago. So yeah, it's interesting that mics haven't really changed that much. I got this mic in 2011, 2012, something like that. And now I use it kind of as my travel mic or a prop sometimes, I guess.

Yeah, I got actually 3 of these at one time. I was using it to do a podcast, you know, kind of like a group podcast at one point. I used to work for Microsoft and so it was basically the same setup. It was 3 SM7Bs and that was many, many years ago. Yeah, but, but I didn't really— I mean, it was before this microphone became popular. It wasn't really a popular podcasting mic back then. Back in those days, it was the Heil PR 40, was the hot microphone. Now, interesting. Now you mentioned the Heil PR 40 and people don't know what you're talking about.

So I was going to say, I don't recognize it.

Right. Yeah. That's how things have changed and shifted more towards like the Audio-Technica ATR-2100X.

Yep, that one I recognize.

Yep. The Samson Q2U, which is another popular mic. I have all those mics, actually.

Some of them are behind you, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then I also experimented with a shotgun mic at one point. You can see it off.

That's the one next to the StreamYard dock?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right. Yep. And so I experimented with that one because I was doing video and I wanted to set it up like it was pointed right at me, like, you know, just under the view of the camera. And I found that it wasn't— didn't have the right sound to it. Didn't have that kind of bassy quality sound to it.

And with your voice too. Yeah, you need to have that bass part. And I feel like the Shure mics do a good job of that, of at least what I've experimented with. But everybody's voice is a little different too. But it's kind of interesting. It's different in our voices. Are— these mics work pretty well, um, for both of us. But yeah, it is, it is cool to be, you know, whenever I go to these, um, I was at NAB a couple months ago, and you know, I go to these different conferences and, and conventions, and it is fun when people have it set up to like try out different mics and just see how it sounds. And you know, it's a podcaster's playground right there of just, you know, figuring out, you know, oh, what sounds good. And, and, and having the travel mic option, like having the Blue Yeti as a travel mic is not really ideal because it's It's so freaking big. So it's big. And it's heavy too. It's a few pounds, I think. So it's, yeah, it's heavy for a mic. Like a lot of mic stands, you put it on it, it can't hold it because it's so heavy. I used to put rocks on the other side of it in a little sack to level it out. It looked ridiculous.

So right up here, oops, if I get my finger right, is the Shure MV7 mic.

Oh yeah. It's kind of like the little baby version of this.

It's the baby version of this., and it actually works pretty good. Um, but, but it has the flexibility of XLR as well as USB. And, and that is, uh, that's a pretty versatile mic. If I travel and want, want to do recordings, that, that's usually the mic that I take.

Um, yeah. So I could see myself getting one of those because that was that the one that was recently announced in the last like 6 months or something, or was that further back?

Yeah. The MV7. I think it's the MV7X, I think is the more recent one. And I believe that it's— there's different versions of it now. There's ones that are XLR only. And then I think that they have one now that's just USB.

And what's tough about the XLR is that then you need— am I going to get it right? Audio interface. I've got the focus right.

Or a mixer or a or a RODECaster Pro or something like that.

Yeah, something you can't just plug it directly in your computer. You need a little middleman there. So then any XLR, I feel like then that's hard for travel because you don't want to be bringing all that with you necessarily unless you're really setting up a studio or something.

Sure. But I mean, it's, it's possible if you get a small kind of like audio interface mixer of sorts and bring with you as well, you can do it.. But if you just get a mic that has the ability to do XLR and USB, then you have the ultimate in flexibility.

And is there a difference? I've always, I've been meaning to ask a pro like yourself, is there a difference between the audio quality for a mic like that, that has both capabilities? Is it better quality when you use the XLR or does it not really matter? Like the USB doesn't change the audio quality.

It's more about the mic. Yeah, I think you have to think in the context of the microphone itself. You know, I know with the MV7, it has a lot of software adjustment settings through the USB connection. So you can adjust the gain, you can adjust the pitch and the pickup radius as well in the software. But if you're using the XLR functionality with it, you don't have that ability to adjust it. So that ability needs to be inside of any kind of audio interface that you have. Right.

Like I have the little knobs on mine to adjust how I'm hearing you and also how much, how loud I am in the mic.

Yeah. Yeah. And like that mic that you were sharing earlier has gain adjustments right on the side of it where these mics don't have any kind of gain adjustments or anything like that. It has to be done through some sort of an interface or software or something like that.

Right?

Yeah.

So it makes it a little bit more, more of a pro level to be kind of using it. Not that it's that hard. Once you figure out what you need to buy, you're like, oh, okay, it's, you know, but it's just a little bit more involved of like setting up and all of that.

Hey, Johnny, thanks for joining. Johnny, appreciate the, the post here. So, yeah, so There are advantages and disadvantages to different kinds of equipment in podcasting, right? And so one of the big things, and I talked about it in last week's episode, is trying to understand what you're trying to do, right? First of all, and get, see if you can get the right equipment for what you're trying to do. And if it needs to be portable or it needs to be in a studio or it needs to be with a mixer or audio interface, that will help dictate what kind of equipment that you need. And then, and then also that'll help decide if you want to have a USB or an XLR. And, but pretty much most podcasters need to focus pretty much exclusively on getting a dynamic.

Yes, because that's condenser mic, right? Yeah, this picks up everything, which is usually not what you want, because if I'm far away from the mic, you're really not hearing me too too much, especially if I'm quieter. But as soon as I come back to it, I'm nice and like loud.

So that's how it keeps it clean too, is that you're only picking up the sound that's being spoken into it and it's not going to pick up a bunch of background sound. Now, my early days with my radio show that I did, I had $700 Audio-Technica condenser microphones that had like the pop filter and all that stuff. Yeah. But my whole setup back in the early days when I started back in 2000 was really based on music technology. So all of the recording capability I had, all of the mics that I have were really came from the music side of things. So it's what music artists use to create music. Yeah.

So, and there's some famous songs that have been recorded even on the mics we're using. Correct. But yeah, it makes sense. A condenser mic in a studio setting because you're completely having no background noise, whereas these dynamic mics make sense here.

Right. If you have a sound-buffered room, which I did back then, I basically put up a bunch of foam panels in my bedroom.

Yeah. Like you have a couple behind you, the gray ones.

Yeah, I do. Yeah, I did a little bit, but it's really mild compared to what my, my old studio used to look like. Or actually, I built like a little room that I hung like moving blankets down. And a lot of big podcasters A lot of them, you'd be surprised, actually record their podcasts inside of a clothes closet.

Yes, honestly, I've done that many times. Like, that's, you know, different times I lived in New York and you got the sirens. I'm like, all right, well, where's the best place I can go? I can shove myself at the bottom of the closet. And the clothes are just such a good way to just absorb the sound. It's— everybody has a built-in studio in their house.

They just don't know it. Yep. Yep, exactly. Well, Kira, it was great to have you on the show. I think we're going to sign off now and everybody can kind of move on with their evening. But it was fantastic to have you on the show and talk about, you know, your experience with podcasting over the years and help others. And that's what I'm hoping to do with this show. Yeah. My 33rd episode. So I'm not going to be doing an episode next week because I'm going to be traveling to Seattle. Seattle, but I'll be back in July again to do another show. So I appreciate everybody that's joined us tonight and has been here with us on this journey. And if you want to follow me a little bit more, you can certainly go to— let me pull up a couple things here. I do have a YouTube presence that you can go to as well. I have a website, robgreenlee.com. And let's see here. Kira has a website too. So let me mention her in here too, dnapodcast.com. Even if you have a remote interest in DNA and genetics about how that might impact your future, I would go check out her podcast because she's doing great stuff with that. So let's see, anything else? Oh, and to reach out to me, That's my email address, rob.greenlee@gmail.com. And I'm also on X @RobGreenlee. And just a little plug, I'm also in the Podcast Hall of Fame. And this is the address. And I'm on the leadership team for the Podcast Hall of Fame. So go check that out. The next induction is going to be in January at Podfest down in Orlando. So we're going to induct another 8 people into the Podcast Hall of Fame. So that's what's on the docket. I haven't really mentioned it too much here recently. And then I also do another podcast called New Media Show. I do that with Todd Cochran. You can see the logo behind me up here. And that's on Wednesdays at 8 PM Eastern now since my co-host is actually in Asia. So we have to accommodate because we usually do the show at 3 PM. Eastern, but, uh, wow, he's in a different time zone now. So, so thank you everybody for joining. I know that, that was a long goodbye.

And, uh, is there anything else that, that you would like to say before we part, Kira? No, just thank you, Rob. This was like such a fun conversation, and you've given the podcast community so much in over two decades. It's just really amazing how much you've contributed and how much you've shaped the field of podcasting. Like, I don't even know, are you an author of one of the books behind me? I don't know. I think my chair is covering it, but I don't know if you edited something.

I know Todd has some books out there, but well, actually he, yeah, Todd actually made the very first book on podcasting.

So let's see, are you pulling up? Hey.

Oh, well now I can grab it. Back in 2005. So it's, it's really a book that's a little bit of an archive on podcasting because a lot of the screenshots are of tech that doesn't exist.

It's, it's come and gone. Yes, it took me a minute. I had it right behind me. You do have— I do. I have a whole stack of books that, um, I think the mic is covering it. Oh, here they are. That's my little podcasting textbooks there. But yeah, there's a lot of good things that I've learned in these books.

And yeah, do you, do you happen to remember when you picked that book up?

I mean, how long ago it was? I don't know. I honestly might have seen it at like Savers or something, or I got it on Amazon. I don't remember, but I've had it for, I think, since high school. So that was 13 years ago, something like that.

So, well, it's— yeah, it's, it's coming up on 20 years now.

Wow. So I definitely didn't buy it 20 years ago. But yeah, no, you, you are definitely an OG in the field and I'm excited to see it. The next— it sounds like you'll probably be at Podcast Movement. I hope that you're doing a live show that I can attend. Well, I hope that is to be determined, right?

I hope so too. But if it doesn't happen, that's all right. So, so we just keep doing what we're doing.

So, well, thank you again so much, Rob, for having me on.

It's been a long goodbye. Thank you, everybody, for, for hanging out with us tonight for the second time. And I appreciate it. And come back and visit me after the 4th of July that's coming up here, because I think what's the Thursday in July, the first Thursday in July? July.

I'm trying to look here. See if I can pull it up.

It is the 4th.

It is the first Thursday in July.

Yeah, so it'll probably not be that night. Yeah, it'll probably be the week after July. Yes. Right. All right, everybody, thank you so much again. Okay, bye guys.

Good night.