Trust Factors in Growing Podcast Audience and Deep Connections

Um, while the other person came at the first ever, uh, ICON event, somebody that came to the second ever ICON event and came— did you come back to it? I think I've only been once. Yes, and that was our second one, and then here we are at the eighth, uh, eighth event. Uh, everybody, I need you to put some super apps together for Super Rob Greenlee. Oh, what did I do with the— okay. There you go. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Yeah, just to let you know, if you didn't know, I've been live streaming all day, so you'll be able to see a lot of these sessions on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Oh, wow. So my little laptop's been doing some work over there. But anyway, it's great to be back at Independent Podcast Conference. I know the last time I did this event, actually I lived in Seattle, and but now I live in Connecticut on the East Coast, so it was just a drive down for me versus a flight all across the country. So it's great to be here, and I've really, I've been involved in podcasting since it started in 2004, and I have worked, spent like the last 8 or 9 years working for podcast hosting companies like Libsyn and Podbean and Spreaker, which is now owned by iHeartRadio. So I've been in the medium a long time. Yeah, I used to work for Microsoft too. I ran the Zoom podcasting platform for Microsoft for 7 years. So I've been on the kind of the consumption side, listening side, the hosting side, the content creator side. And now I've kind of shifted over to working with the creation tool side. So I'm working with StreamYard and Nomano. I'm actually streaming this on StreamYard as well as using the Nomano device to record the audio. So, so it's actually, you know, this is all a test bed for me to create content and have a great time podcasting. So, and being at events like this and meeting podcasters and technology platforms. But what I'm really here to talk about is building audience connection. And there's a strong connection to trust along that path as well. I'm actually doing a podcast. Actually, it's a convergence show is the term that I'm using, where it's doing video on YouTube as well as an audio podcast. So what I'm doing is I'm trying to create the video version and then just taking the audio and putting that out as a podcast. So trying to walk those lines is kind of a little bit of a challenge. But one of the things that I have learned a lot over the years, over the various podcasts that I've done for either Microsoft or Spreaker or whatever, I've done live shows for Spreaker too. I did like 180 episodes for Spreaker on their platform and then did the Zoom Insider podcast and did my own nationally syndicated radio show for for 7 years as well and learned a lot about audiences and learned a lot about kind of just from, I guess, the school of hard knocks, I guess, on building connections with audiences. And then my recent passion with my own show called The Trust Factor now is it's all kind of coming together for me in some ways. So that's why I wanted to do this presentation. I've got a new company now called Spoken Life Media and just doing a bunch of stuff. So I'm just going to jump into it here and kind of just take you quick through, you know, an early journey of where I started. I started in a little radio station in the Seattle market. You can see that that was the crew there in the picture there. There's So I started out, you know, not being a very strong kind of show host. I had to bring in a bunch of other folks to kind of prop me up a little bit. And each one of them kind of played a role in the show itself. It was a little bit like a morning show type of a format, where each of the parties played a role on the show that brought some humor, and some entertainment, and some education.. And that was the idea behind it. And I just, I was basically the orchestrator that just handed it off to all those folks. But I was streaming online. This is all back in 1999. Uh, and started making my show available as a streaming show with the Reel platform and making my episodes available for download. But anyway, I'll jump ahead on this. And then the show started to evolve and improve, and I got a my own office studio in Tacoma, Washington, which is a little bit south of Seattle. And I started working with some— I got some venture investment and got a bunch of radio music recording equipment to build a little studio and all this kind of stuff and started getting more professional at it. And then started working with a small company called Microsoft and was streaming My shows, you can see there, Internet topics from WebTalk Radio, or WebTalk Guys Radio at the time. So that's where I got most of my audience back in that time frame, 2002. And Microsoft actually had the early precursor podcasting platform. It was actually, and I'll show you, that's in the next slide. But this is the time frame from like 2004 to 2006. There was a Podcast Pioneers Dinner in Seattle in 2005. And the folks that sit around this table were the folks that were either kind of pioneers in podcasting or they were— the reason for this dinner is there was planning for the first podcast conference that was going to start. It was the New Media Expo. So that's me sitting right there on the left. And then there's the radio show that I did that then became a podcast in 2004. And then this is the Microsoft platform, it's called Sync and Go, and it worked with Windows XP to Pocket PC devices, so you can totally look at it from the perspective of the Pocket PC was like the iPod. At the time. So they, they have their own software. They only had 13 content providers, but I got paid 25 cents per transfer from Windows XP to Pocket PC devices. I got paid 25 cents per transfer. So that, that equated to about $5,000 a month in revenue to me back in the 2003 timeframe. So I was only one of 3 audio programs on the platform. So it was really kind of an interesting time. And then coincidentally, Microsoft killed this when podcasting started in 2005, in that time frame. So it's like, I tried to convince them to expand the catalog, but I don't think they really wanted to continue paying 25 cents per transfer. So that was the problem. And then this is another platform that I worked on. It's called— I guess it's playing. This was the— I worked at this company on mobile podcasting back in 2005 to 2007, and it was really the first mobile podcast consumption platform to ever exist. So it was very early in the times, but I got some experience working there, and then I went to Microsoft to work on the Zoom platform. And that, that was something that took me up to about 2014 or so. But it was a great time, and it was really sad to see that platform fade away along with Windows Phone. But such as it is. And I just wanted to share too, because nobody shared at the event here, kind of what the total number of podcasts are by Podcast Index. There's There's some debate in the industry about how accurate this number is. It's compared to maybe like what Apple has, which is like maybe 2.5 million. But what's really interesting is the shows' episodes published. How many shows are actually publishing episodes in the last 3 days? There's about 116,000 shows that published an episode in the last 3 days. Out of 4.2 million. So it kind of gives you an idea a little bit. 10 days and then 30 days, about 300,000 or so. That's a debated— yeah, I think that's pretty close to probably what it is. But anyway, as far as elements of building audience and trust, I think the big thing about trust is if your audience believes in you and trusts in you and what you say and what you do, they're more likely to stick with you. And I think you as a podcaster, there's basically 7 elements of it. There's, it's like a respect for your audience that you need to go into the program with a respect for your audience. And then also really attempt to unite your audience in some ways. I've seen just a lot of power in, especially when you do live, you can see a lot of this dynamic that happens of the audience kind of coming together and becoming friends with each other. There's an opportunity for that. So oftentimes audience will come back to a live program not so much for you, the host, but they'll come back because they have other friends. That also were joining that program, but they'll communicate in chat platforms and whatever. And then as a host, you need to kind of show you care about your audience. I mean, as you talk to folks and how you talk to your audience, it's really, really important to express ways that you can help them and also just listening. To what they have to say is very important as well. And I'll go into greater detail on this, but, you know, and show your passion. Show that you're excited about this topic that you're talking about. Show your energy. Show your enthusiasm. And be genuine, because people can see through people that are not genuine. So you have to really work at that. And authenticity, now I know that's probably an overused word in the medium today, but that means being real, that means being truthful as much as you can. I think people, especially women, have to be careful about this area to some degree, but there's a lot of power in being able to walk that line of authenticity. And show lighthearted joy and humor. And I know Dave talks about this a lot too. You can't be boring. And I think that is, that's a skill that you have to develop over time. And oftentimes I recommend to people that maybe if there's a local kind of class you can take about stand-up comedy, or you can take some sort of a class on how to do kind of like off-the-cuff humor, I think it can really, really help you as a podcaster. But like I said earlier, especially about women, safe transparency is the path. So you just have to think about that before you start talking about your personal life too much. So I wanted to show you two examples of shows that were like, one is very strongly trusted by its audience and one that turned out to be not very trusted by its audience. And the first one is Rob Cesternino. Um, Dave knows Rob, and I don't know who else knows him here, but he's been very successful, uh, podcaster. He does a, a show, um, basically about Survivor TV series. Um, so I don't know, Joe, is— do you know Rob Cessarino? I know of him. My wife's more of a Survivor fan than I. I always never watched the show, but she does. But yeah, I've known Rob for a very long time, and, and he just— there's just a genuineness to him. He actually— you actually remind me a lot of of Rob and how you, how you think about what you're doing and the authentic conversations that you have and how you approach a lot of, um, thinking positively about your audiences is a big thing. As opposed to Larry King, who I worked with at PodcastOne, where I used to work at PodcastOne, um, he had this show with his his wife. It was very short-lived, but that show only reached about 2,000 downloads because I called it kind of a bicker cast. It was like, you know, an older man and a younger woman fighting with each other on the podcast. Well, so just because you're a celebrity doesn't mean that you're automatically going to be successful, and this was an interesting thinking about the popularity and awareness of a Larry King and what I saw happen to this program is just a really poor indication of doing the wrong kind of audience connection type of a program. So anyway, I'll move on to the next one. So I think that When you think about respecting your audience, the duration of the podcast is something that you need to think about too, to some degree. And does it add value to the audience's life? I do think that there is a perspective that you do earn your duration. To some degree over time. You should never do too much content that's beyond what would perceive to be the value of that content to your audience. Now sometimes that's hard to know, and I've always done shows that I was fascinated by the content, but I was also always keeping in mind what my audience might be looking for. But the passion really has to come from you. You know, what's— but the show always has to deliver something to the host, the creator, and the audience. So you have to walk that line. It's not always an easy line to walk. I don't really firmly believe that anybody should do a show that's just, you know, I'm going to do a show because I know that's what the audience wants, but I don't care about it. That's not going to work in the long run, in my opinion. You know, be open to taking serious audience input, but don't take it too deeply, right? As we saw with Joe today talking about the criticism that he gets. But listen to your feedback and look for trends. Don't make a big change to your program just because one person says they don't like the show or they don't like one little part of the show or whatever. Look at it as an aggregate, like a research study of sorts, and look for feedback to give you ideas on what you can do. But at the end of the day, it's your choice as the host. Because you're the one that has to look out for the majority of your audience, not just one listener who gave you a particular negative feedback. And promote and create participation and input. Into the, into the program, and you need to feed that back to your audience. And that shows a level of respect for them as well, that you acknowledge their existence, you're acknowledging their importance, and that, you know, do some surveys, get some feedback. There's platforms like SurveyMonkey or whatever, and just put out a quarterly survey and just ask people for feedback. Ask for who they are, are they male or female, what their age range is. And then also, you know, you might be able to use that data to help better target any kind of sponsorship or anything like that you can do with your podcast as well. And then work on the elements to unite your audience. And this is what I was talking about earlier about live streaming, building community communications, not so much you know, host to audience communication, but foster community connections, right, where members of the community can build friendships across the listener base of the podcast itself. And create topical groups, areas where your community can talk among themselves about these topics and share ideas and. And you can use that as a host, as a resource that can drive topics and things you can do in your program as well. So it's, it's a powerful connection once you deeply connect. And I really saw this a lot on Spreaker when I worked at Spreaker too. I saw a lot of really, really big shows that would just do live. And it's really funny, my experience has been is that there are a lot of very successful live-only shows, you know, just like in commercial radio. And some of these shows I saw had like 6,000 to 10,000 comments in an hour-long show. It's just, there was just something about that show that just connected with people and they just wanted to share and wanted to participate and talk to other people in the community. I mean, there's been times when I've seen this happen where lifelong friends come out of these communities. And that's why it's so powerful. And I know Rob, the Cestronino, has actually conferences that he now puts on where his audience comes as well as the survivor winners or the participants on the program will attend as well. It's almost like a Comic-Con. Of sorts. But that's the kind of community connections that are extremely powerful. And really be sure to talk about the comments that you get in the program that you do, so it acknowledges to that community that you're listening to them. And really be a leader in your community. Lead, not just, you know, take the community on a journey per se, is really— and then you need to be the most passionate one in the community that makes connections to others and leads discussion and leads that topic. And then create exposure opportunities for your listeners in your program as much as you can. And like I said, encourage members to talk to each other. And then, like I said earlier, about show you care, right? You know, identify and share high-value resources to your community that you know will be helpful to them. Give the audience direct access to you as much as you can. I know, I think that's becoming a little more challenging these days because there's a lot of crazy people out there, but But share— you do the show and do show that the show is important to you and it's an important passion of yours. You know, say you want a relationship with your audience member too. I mean, speak to your audience as an individual, as a person, as a singular reference, not a you know, a huge group of people. Don't speak to your audience as a group. Speak to them as an individual because that's typically how they're listening to you. They're listening to you with an earbud. So this is a personal medium. And also share that you need, you need to be supported from your community and give them avenues to support you. Offer freebies, some incentives. To participate and do in-person events as much as you can. I think in live on-stage events, like I've been doing that with my new media show, I do that live on stage at Podcast Movement, as many conferences as I can get that done. And live, live events, I think is really, really powerful. And then Passion has to be shown. It has to really speak with enthusiasm, speak with energy. Be genuine about your desire to share and help others. Have a strong level of interest and curiosity in everything about your topic and about your audience too. And take advantage of a converged strategy, audio and video together. I'm definitely playing around with that. Myself trying to take advantage of that too, because I do have a strong, strong thought that people are becoming more attracted to video. Audio has its own powerful characteristics too, but a converged strategy, I think, as we look forward is what's really going to work. Authenticity, obviously, it's definitely an overused word, at this point. But being who you are is the only thing you can do. I think trying to portray something that you're not is gonna wind up failing. And but be safe about that though. So yeah, and show some humor, but it's hard to do consistently. You know, I'm not, I'm not known or have any kind of confidence in in humor myself. You can probably tell that from my presentation. I'm not a joke teller, but that is certainly a skill that I need to develop. But some people it comes naturally to, you know. Dave has got a humor bone, Dave Jackson. I know many other podcasters does that kind of— I don't know how hard you try, Dave, to be funny, but you are. Looks aren't everything. See, there you go. You just demonstrated it right there. Um, but yeah, get some comedy training if you can, um, stand-up or some improv or something like that. I think it will help you a lot. It depends on how serious you are about it and if you're, you know, if you want to have that kind of a, a podcast as well too, because it just may not be, um, you know, who you are, and that's that's okay too. And ask Alexa for a few jokes. Maybe that would give you something to work with. So anyway, and then say transparency, you know, that's always important. But I just wanted to mention this little piece here is indie podcast productions tend to be, I guess, a more trusted than larger media production companies. So I think it's a potential advantage being an indie producer that if we can foster this. Big media companies have a hard time with this. I mean, I've worked for a lot of big corporations before, and being genuine, being real is not one of their strengths. So if you can do that, that'll help you stand out. And any questions anybody has? Yes, Mr. Brand. Yes, Mr. Greenlee. You talked about live that got 6,000 to 10,000 views. That was live audio on Spreaker. It was. Can you give some examples of the type of content that did well? Yeah, it was usually very Kind of like that group show type concept. You can think like a Howard Stern type shows, ones where you had a variety of different personalities on the program. And that was a lot like my web talk radio show that I had. That show got a lot of audience engagement, good and bad. But anytime you can bring in really diverse personalities And I think that's the key. You trigger different people in connection. And I think it's, it's not easy to replicate. I mean, a lot of podcasting is about chemistry and it's about the co-hosts or the hosts really being able to connect with each other. I'm a big believer in co-host podcasts. Ones that have, you know, I know Dave does this too, he's got a co-host, but all the shows that I've done primarily have been co-host podcasts, especially the ones that have been popular. I'm dabbling around with a solo show right now, but that's not my, that's like stretching myself because I'm not really that great of a solo host. I always like to have someone around, but it's It's definitely, uh, the co-host type format versus interview format, I think, is kind of where the world is right now. I don't know, Dave, do you have a thought about that in terms of co-host? Yeah, yeah. What's worse is, hey, so today we're talking about this movie, I really liked it, what about you, Shannon? I loved it too. Okay, next movie. Hey, I hated it, Shannon, how about you? I hated it too. Well, if Shannon's going to do the exact same thing you are, we don't really need two people. Yeah, it's the contrast is what's important. You know, I know the Stricker Live show that I did, you know, I'm a— oh man, I'm kind of a laid-back guy myself, so— but my co-host was rather bombastic, you know. So I think Dave knows what I'm talking about. But, um, having that contrast of personalities, uh, is really powerful, and especially if it's It creates a chemistry that connects with certain types of audience personalities too. And yeah, so I'm just a big believer, but go ahead if you have a question. Oh yeah, since you've been kind of around since the infancy of podcasting conceptualization, are there any trends that you see coming down the pike? I feel like you have history on that side. Anything you see? Yeah, I'm always keeping an eye on trends and the direction and that's That's really always my kind of my guiding light of what I'm trying to do, trying to see where, where we're heading. It's not always easy to kind of flesh out the details on that, but it does feel like we are moving more towards kind of this convergence approach, more and more emphasis on video. But yet somehow there's a disconnect there too, because audio has characteristics to it that are somewhat beyond video too. So it's a difficult balance, but I do think that video is becoming very important. And I do think that we're seeing the development of proprietary platforms start to really kind of take over. If we look at what Spotify is doing doing right now, and we're looking at YouTube. So, you know, there's a lot of folks in the industry that are feeling very threatened by what's happening around keeping the open RSS a strong kind of fabric of podcasting. And I think that there's also tension around people's perception of what a podcast is right now. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of people in the industry right now that are saying that podcasts are anything that's on YouTube, it's anything on TikTok, it's anything, you know, it's really any content that looks like a podcast and the audience thinks is a podcast must be a podcast now. And that's got a lot of people concerned, but it's also, I kind of look at it as maybe an opportunity, but it's It's also, I think that there's some reason to be concerned about the platform podcasting moving towards being dominated by these big huge media, social media platforms. And with content moderation, I think is the other big worry that I have about what's happening in the medium right now. Brand safety and suitability. So it's coming in via the advertising models. More and more. I don't think that we necessarily want content moderation in podcasting, but I think maybe it's kind of inevitable. Does anybody else have any questions? Yeah, go ahead. You were talking about a convergent strategy where you take the video and the audio and then you put the video and the audio video, are you editing those the same way? I know myself, I'm using Descript. Yeah, I'm using Descript too. Okay. Yeah. And I'm noticing that with Descript, you can have the ums and the ahs, the filler words removed, which is great, but it's also not great because it's not quite there yet to make it seamless transition. Well, I think if you're doing video— see, I'm doing it with video too, so it edits the video as well. Yeah, so you do create this kind of, this, you know, jerky, cutty kind of look to the video as well. So if you're doing that with your video, you kind of need to sit a little stiller on your video. I'm having trouble connecting to the internet. Check your Wi-Fi network connection by going to settings. Okay. Yeah. Well, you can go in and edit the list of the edited words in Descript, so you can uncheck certain words. So I've done that. I probably I probably only checked like maybe 20 out of the 47 or whatever, but, um, so it doesn't chop it up as much. But I think it's, you know, I've seen a lot of very successful, uh, YouTube shows that are using Descript, um, because it does cut down the length a little bit, and that's what you kind of want on YouTube. So, so anyway, anybody else have any questions? All right, thank you very much. So it is a small question. Since you've seen this fracturing that's taking place between people putting podcasts up as things on YouTube and then some things being on the RSS feed, and then certain people also going on to Clubhouse, etc., calling that podcast Analytics, etc., are completely different. So how are you finding that brands are looking at these very divergent analytics?