Trusting and Being Trusted in Relationships | Ep 5

Trust Factor with Rob Greenlee focuses on all aspects to building human trust in online communications. Only on Trust Factor. Episode 5, Trusting and Being Trusted in Our Interpersonal Relationships, is the topic today with dating and relationship expert and coach Kimmy Seltzer, who's joining me in my first interview in this series. Hi, my name is Rob Greenlee, and I'm here again in episode of the podcast. Thank you for joining me. The trust factor in your life is essential and the lack or abundance of it is profoundly impactful on the quality of your life. So trust is the number one factor in all of our lives today. So it's very important. So thank you. And I hope what you learned today and what you continue to learn in this series will bring you more positive experience in your life. And your experience with others. So as we focus on really in this series, the human experience as this world shifts to artificial intelligent experiences, which is going to put more of an emphasis and focus on all of our ability to find ways to connect with other humans in authentic and real ways. We're also now available, this series is available as an audio podcast. On Apple Podcasts, so you can follow the show there and subscribe on YouTube at the 100 TV channel. So go check that out. It's at, just do a search for 100 TV in YouTube, or just go to, if you want to read more about the 100 TV network, you can go to 100tvnetwork.com. So let's jump into it and get right into our fantastic guest here. I have with me. The excellent Kimmy Seltzer, who's gonna, gonna talk to me about interpersonal trust-building relationships. She's an ex-therapist turned dating strategist, coach, podcast host, so right up my alley, and author and nationally recognized speaker. So she hosts two shows. One is on hiatus right now, but the Charisma Quotient show, as well as Dating IRL, which is on hold right now, but I believe there's a couple of episodes up there. Kimmy, thank you for joining me. I appreciate having you here.

Thank you. And I love that I'm your first guest. How fun.

Yes. Yes. In episode 5, I'm charting new territory with this show. So it's, it's awesome. And I'm still gonna sprinkle together the solo shows with occasional guests that are relevant to the trust factor topic to try and bring you a little bit deeper insights than maybe even I can, I can bring to the topic. So I don't have the answers to everything.

So that's pretty close though, Rob.

I try. I've been around long enough to experience a lot of different situations, but bring on experts like Kim is really key to giving this show the depth and the scope that it needs to have to really help you and help what you're doing. Kimmy, let's just start off and get to the root here, which is Talking about trust, why don't you share your thought at this point about how important trust is in dating and in relationships from your own experience? And what does that look like? How is it built? And how is it expressed? I know that's a mouthful to start out with, but if you can summarize it, I think it'd be really helpful.

Oh my God, and I have so many ways to answer. And yes, there are a lot of layers there, and because the truth is, and you really honed in on what trust means for me, it all really started with my story because the thing is, yes, I'm a trained therapist and I've helped people for many years and trust has always been like a big factor when it comes to communication and relationship, breaking patterns and all of those things. And I had my own story happen to me that completely broke trust in everything that I knew. And I really, from a personal standpoint, had to rebuild that first in myself and then with others to fundamentally understand it. You were on my podcast and we were talking about that until you understand the other side and really have been through it is when you really feel it and see it and hopefully break those patterns. And I don't know if you want me to go into my story. I think it's like an interesting part of our discussion, but to answer your question first, and we can circle back, trust is I think the most fundamental thing to have when it comes to building a healthy relationship, quite honestly, because you could have a lot of different things going on that is beneficial in a relationship. Like you could have great sex, you could have compatibility in ways of things that you like to do together. You could even see eye to eye with like money and all the things that are important when it comes to relationships. But all of that, is really nothing if you don't have trust. And so it, it's the fundamental like thing that you need in a relationship. And what you and I were talking about too on my podcast is that how intertwined trust is with confidence. Cause if you're in a place in your life with a relationship or other things, it's hard to have also that authentic relationship, that trustworthy relationship. And it really can knock down your own confidence in yourself. So there's, again, there's so many layers to this thing. Yeah, I don't know where you want to go with it, but it is, there's a lot of twists and turns in this.

But also trust can influence the quality of any relationship that you have too. Trust getting into a relationship and trust in the ongoing relationship with another party can really have an impact on the longevity of that particular relationship too, and the direction that it goes and the depth paths that it goes, or the, for the exit direction it goes. I don't know, talk about that a little bit too, is the trust factor that comes into quality and longevity too.

Yeah, because let's say that you do have trust issues, you've been hurt, so the walls go up, and now you're moving forward trying to attract a new relationship. And in your mind, you're thinking, all right, I'm going to attract something different this time around. But you're also scared at the same time, so you're, you're worried about being vulnerable and sharing things about yourself. And so the very thing that you're hoping to have, you're also fearing. And so you're caught in this like double bind almost. And I call it the tug of war within, because you'll say, I want something that's really trustworthy, but then you're not trusting. And so maybe like the longevity is affected because maybe you just you start a relationship really surfacey and you're just talking about safe topics, or maybe you're deflecting and you're asking that person lots of questions because it's safer, in the end it's going to crash and burn because now you set up a precedent for a relationship that's lopsided where the focus is all on the other person and not on you. And so those can crash and burn, right?

Yeah. And then there's not a balance of an exchange that happens and it's really lopsided. And it's one thing we didn't talk about in your interview is these type of relationships can develop into one-sided type of relationships. Now, granted, that's a little bit of a departure from the path that we're on right now in our discussion. Trust can be eroded in those kinds of dynamics too, when it's not a balanced trust-based relationship. And that's. That can be, that can be a resentment that builds up and we're getting into ecology topics here a little bit, but yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's important too, to also think about the early stages too of dating or any kind of a relationship really is how you get through that early stage of, like you said, walls going up and people being scared to take a risk or to not to know how far to jump in or disclose too much too fast and frighten this other person away or something.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it, and it shows up in ways that sometimes you don't even realize. I do these dating retreat programs and one of the classes that I have is getting over your dating fears. And there's 5 top dating fears. And like one is fear of rejection and the other one is fear of abandonment. We all have these like core fears that also correlate with the trust, right? But then when we have a relationship that makes that fear true, that just again adds to that fear and the quality of the relationship. I have people come to me all the time. All I see are unavailable, emotionally unavailable men. And my question is always back to them after doing a little deep dive. How emotionally available are you?

And what is, let's talk about this. What is an emotionally unavailable person, right? Is this just a person that, that just can't trust anything? How far down that rabbit hole does that go if a person just feels that way?

Yeah. I mean, we could get like really into psychobabble here. Like, I know we can.

We probably will too.

So I know we already are, but that's how I roll. And I like to have fun with it too, just to put it in layman's terms. That it can go pretty deep to the fact where, you know, like I was working with a client, for instance, I'll just give you like a, cause I like talking in stories. It just makes sense where her, she grew up with a father who was emotionally unavailable and he had some narcissistic tendencies. So lo and behold, she kept attracting those kinds of guys in her life. Now, how does that happen?

How do you keep attracting that? Is it because that's what you're looking for? Those kinds of characteristics?

I was just— okay, I'm going to use a psychological term on you, just one. Maybe there'll be two in here. If there's a principle called the familiarity principle, meaning that our brain has a fun— it's like a computer, always default back to what we know, good, bad, or indifferent. And so if you grew up in that kind of home where a father was emotionally distant, and I'll define that in a second, but it's familiar to you. So then you attract people who has that similar feel, and it's the brain's way of trying to have a corrective experience— oh, I used two— an experience that, that feels like, okay, I can work through this. Like, this time it's gonna— but in the end, it's the same guy, different costume, as I always say it.

Got it.

And people are left with, how did I get here? And so that's where the real work comes in, because the truth of the matter is you can't change other people. Like, she couldn't change those guys. She was going to keep encountering them. She was going to be attracted to them. The work came from within. And when you change things about yourself, that's when you get a different result, because that's all you have control over.

I've heard it said so many times that people attract what they're familiar with based on how they were raised, especially women. They tend to attract to other guys that are familiar to them based on maybe what they experienced with their father or something like that. And if they had a good relationship with their father, I guess it could be bad too, but that's what they tend to gravitate toward. I've always been fascinated by how does a person find that? Most relationships start from a two-person being attracted to each other. So there must be characteristics of that that bring people together, that those are commonalities in interest. It's just fascinating to me that people will gravitate towards relationships with people that have proven to be bad kind of connections for them in the past, but they keep going back to them over and over again.

It is. And it's like a Groundhog Day.

I'm trying to understand how it works.

Yeah. And actually it's not just women, it's men too, because I work with both men and women and we all have patterns that are recognizable if you track all the way back in time. And that's why, like, when I work with people, I like, I don't think there's a cookie cutter approach, one size fits all when it comes to to helping people like overcome trust issues. Because to your point, like we all have our journeys and our stories that shape us in different ways. So it's like figuring out what's true for you and how can you go about things a little bit differently. So if you can think of it more, it's not like you're intentionally seeking out unavailable people. Oh, there's one. I think I'll—

Right, exactly. That's, that, that's the dysfunctional guy that I was looking for, right?

Yes. Oh, where have you been? I've been searching high and dry for you. Here you are. No, I mean, everyone goes in with good intentions, but there's— there— when I work with people, I do something called data dating, and they have to collect certain data on people as they're dating without getting attached or into a relationship so they can really keep their eye on the ball of certain patterns that they're getting attracted to. Because it starts from the minute you say hello. It's so interesting because I always say if you want to change the story, you have to go back to the script and change the beginning of the story. So let's say say, like with this woman, for instance, she kept attracting unavailable people. And that goes back full circle to what we were talking about trust, because she was so used to not having a voice, not sharing her feelings, doting on other people, because growing up, she had to dote on her father and, and try to get his attention. And she basically was like the caretaker, the dancing monkey, anything to try to get his love. So when she meets a guy, she's going to lead with that, right? She's going to lead with paying attention to him, making him feel good, not expressing what she needs, not setting boundaries. So she had to, we had to reverse engineer that. We said, what if you showed up as queen bee and you demanded more for yourself and you express your needs and desires, and then you get to see if he responds to that. And she's like, that was like so foreign to her, but that's exactly why she kept finding herself with these guys. So that's why I'm saying like, when we talk about trust, it's like that chicken and egg thing, like which comes first? Is it you not trusting or the other person not trusting you? It's both because we're setting up dynamics. And so all you can do is shift some things and first understand where the trust issues come from and put strategies in place to override them. It really is like a computer. And that's why nowadays I call myself an authentic dating strategist more than a coach, more than a therapist, because I just believe as we get older, we just need strategies to override bad habits.

So you're becoming an art, a human artificial intelligence?

I am.

Coach? Is that what this is?

I'm much more fun, I shall say, than an AI situation. No, I think also we're just really smart and savvy these days. And I think a lot of people have done work on themselves and they're just ready for the action step. I have a lot of people come to me and say, oh, I've been through therapy and I've done the work. I'm like, intellectually you have, but have you put it into action?

Have you done it?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause I think it's an interesting question. The, what are the practical steps that a person can take to foster trust with others? But it's like you've expressed here. It's just so complicated. It's where do we, where do we start sometimes? Cause people, everybody, I know myself, I have baggage from my past and, and my bias for what I like, but I also. Have been able to step back from this and say, I want a different outcome, or I want a different kind of life. And I want to do something, experience something different than what maybe I've had in the past based on my experience. Right? So maybe these little things that we experience in our life kind of shape the new direction that we go. And, but fundamentally it's all based on fostering trust in the world around us. We're all really, I think, naked to the world when it comes right down to it. I think a lot of us try to hide and shield ourselves from reality, but success doesn't come from that.

No. And also, that's why I feel like we're all feeling isolated too, more, to be honest, because we're all—

that's what the world wants is all of us isolated, right?

That's another topic.

Doing Zoom calls.

Yes. Yes. The 2D format rather than the personal connection. And I think that in itself feeds the distrust because the more we get used to being isolated, the scarier it is to then try to connect and open ourselves up for whatever that is that we fear.

A lot of people get out of practice at doing it too. I know during the pandemic, I locked away in my, my, my home for 3 years. Didn't exactly foster my skills. For interpersonal relationships short of doing Zoom calls.

My God.

Podcasts, right? I got a little rusty too. That's why I've been excited about getting back out at events again was to be able to keep working on those skills.

Oh, but that's the name of the game. It's like, it all boils down to action, practice, repetition, consistency, because you asked what are the steps. For each person, that's going to look differently. But I think the universal things that you can do is number one, start small, because I think that can also be really overwhelming. Like when someone says to you, oh, just be more confident. Just trust, just trust. So what does that mean? If I could do that, I would do that on my own. And, and I find this to be true when a lot of people come to me, they're just like, find me a man, find me a woman. I'm like, let's break that down and see what are some skills that you need to do in order to get that. So I like starting with like tangible, small things that people can do to add up to the bigger trust, because it's not going to happen overnight. And to try to think of it and just manifest it is overwhelming. And quite honestly, you'll be disappointed because you'll just sit there and why am I not trusting, but you're not doing. So when you really just focus on little things, and that's why, like with my clients, going online and learning just to talk to the opposite sex again and not get like into, oh, is this my boyfriend or girlfriend? Just like learning to trust that not all guys are creeps and not all women are bitches. Sorry if I— I don't know if I can say that here, but this is— no, but this is where we get caught up in is that like we're so scared, and then nobody's approaching anybody, and so we're at a stalemate. But both women and men have a responsibility in approachability. And so if we can all just exercise, like you said, the social muscle, and maybe just say hi and say, oh, maybe 2 people rejected me, but then 8 people said hi back— there's evidence that not everybody is like that, that you can actually trust saying hi to the opposite sex and that every man is a bad man, that kind of thing.

Right. I mean, if you're a guy, you just have to take a risk and just be nice and cordial and be thoughtful and don't be, don't act too scared. That can also give the impression that maybe you're lacking in confidence or you're lacking in your ability to think on your feet or you're scared or whatever, and that's not necessarily a way to foster good interpersonal communication. So that kind of stuff. And I think like you were saying, each situation is so different and everybody just has to just step back and say, I'm going to think of this person. I've always heard this phrase in the past is that the best way, especially if you're a presenter or speaker, is just think of everybody in the audience is in their underwear sitting there.

Oh yeah.

And it's funny, right? So that kind of disarms you or walk into a room with a big smile on your face. I was always, I've been told this for years, is that especially with podcasting and media, creating media, is that you go into what you're doing with a smile on your face and it changes your entire attitude. Now, granted, what's your thoughts on that from a relationship communication standpoint? If a person approaches you and they've got a big smile on their face, or they're so like positive. Does that scare away people too? Are people like skeptical of people that are too happy or too smiley or too cheerful, you think?

I'll answer it in this way. I think too many people are worried about what the other people are thinking.

And they don't go there.

They don't go, right? So here's the thing. You can never do anything wrong if you're coming from a place authenticity and something that you want. If you're doing something in ways of something that's not you, so if you're smiling, but you're really anxious and it comes across a little creepy, then it's going to be creepy. Because if you feel creepy or weird, guess what they're going to do. So really it comes back to us. We have that responsibility. Yeah.

And I think it comes from confidence too. If you're genuinely cheerful, I think it's possible to go into every situation that you're going into, and I've been trying to do this in my own life, is to go in positive thinking. Don't think negative thoughts. Don't think, oh, I'm gonna fail. It's this self-talk thing that goes on too, that undermines people and their confidence and their ability to feel confident. If they're undermining themselves, essentially pulling the rug out from underneath themselves in every situation, then yeah, people aren't gonna trust. People that are giving that impression, I think too. Let's move on from that. Cause that, that is like a quagmire we can spend probably 3 hours talking about. Right. Let's, let's talk about situations where trust is broken. And I know that's a complicated one and, and it's not, there's no really one answer to this, this dilemma, but what's your thoughts on rebuilding? I know in a lot of relationships, once the trust is broken, it's really difficult to, to build it back again. And it may never come back entirely, but what's your advice for that? People that are coming out of that experience, right? Where their trust was just blown up with a nuclear bomb and they're trying to either— I don't know if you come across people that are trying to heal their existing relationships or if it's primarily just trying to get beyond that trust explosion that happened in their life.

Yeah, as a therapist, I used to work with people in all different kinds of situations, obviously. So I did help people who were already in relationships and couples and that kind of thing. Now I'm primarily focusing on people in the dating world who are single, but a lot of my clients do get into relationships and there's always going to be hiccups and whatnot. And what I can say about that is it first of all depends on the level of the trust that has been broken, right? Somebody cheating on someone is different than someone who told one lie and hadn't lied before. There's different levels of things, right? Then we also take in things differently based on our own experiences. So you could have one person say something that might feel like, oh, the trust is broken, but it has to do with maybe stuff that went on in the past that doesn't warrant the trust to be broken. So I think you have to look at the quality and of what has happened. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that in order to repair, let's say yourself, and let's say you are getting back out there and dating after having a horrible toxic relationship where all trust was broken, it's going to take a minute. Number one, definitely you got to do the work. I've had people come to me where that has happened and they're just trying to numb out by going out there and dating. And they're not even allowing themselves to feel what happened.

So when you say numb out, they're actually going about this almost like a robotic thing. It isn't like it's really coming from a deep sense of wanting to build a new relationship. It's more like they feel like they're going through the motions. Is that what you're—

Yeah, or they want to feel the high of the courtship, feeling great, and like they'll just go after the next thing and not really take in, first of all, what happened and deal with it. And when you're doing the work, like, I, I actually see this a lot, like post-divorce, and if something has happened, like, in the relationship, if there was infidelity or money issues or something that has happened, a lot of people just go back out and get into another relationship, almost like not dealing with it kind of thing. And I— what I say to people who are in that state is that first of all, it's not that you shouldn't be social or try to like get back to yourself, but you also have to do some repair work for yourself because even in situations where the trust has been broken by the other party, you still have a piece in that. And until you take responsibility of what could have I done differently and what was my piece, then the cycle will continue.

Yeah, that's true.

So that, so that I think this is where it all begins. And then once you do the work and you start recognizing your stuff that you wanna change, then it's again, going back to taking small steps and not Feeling the pressure of, oh my God, now I have to trust again and go date someone and get a boyfriend or girlfriend. It's let's just talk to the aliens, as I call, like a guy is an alien to you, or if a woman's an alien to just talk to them and get used to the opposite sex again, knowing that not everyone's a bad person and just maybe build friendships and go to parties and get back to you feeling good. So I think there's like. Definite basic steps to take. And also time. The third thing is time. You can't skip time. You can't jump over it. You can't go underneath it. You got to go right through it. And, and you got to feel it. You got to feel it and allow yourself to do that. And as time goes on, there's certain time periods where healing is there. And I always say, and this is a therapy— it's not just me, but a lot of therapists say this, that When you finally feel that you get to the place of neutrality, meaning you don't have that anger towards that person anymore, or that desire to go back or win them back, when you can just look at them or not have any contact with them and just be in that neutral state, you've healed.

You've healed from that. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. And that can take a variety of different time spans, right? Each person is different on that. But I wanted to change gears a little bit here really quick and just ask you, what are some of the red flags that you think exist in the dating apps that are out there today that if you're a woman or a guy, you should be looking out for or looking for in a dating app if you're trying to connect with people? And that's a trust situation too.

Yeah. Yeah. Especially online. So many people are sick of it. And a lot of it came from the pandemic because that's all we could do to meet people. The reality is there are a lot of scammers. There just are, like, we can't get around that. Just as they are in real life, they're scammers in real life. And we were talking about this on my podcast, there's just, it's a larger concentrated amount of people who have access to other people. So you're gonna just see it more, I think. And I'm gonna even just broaden this out because this applies to offline as well. I think the first thing that you're looking for is somebody who is consistent in their communication and has It's like they say what they mean, what they say. You're having exchanges that feel fluid. There's a pacing that goes on that feels really safe. I think that would be another thing to look for.

So when you say pacing, what does that look like?

Pacing, meaning you don't want things to go too fast and you also don't want things to go too long. Meaning if anybody's, hi, wanna meet, or hi, wanna have sex, or hi, and we laugh, but there are situations like that where it just goes really fast. Oh, I just wanna meet you right away. And we're in a different day and age now. And I always recommend have a little exchange, see if you feel emotionally safe and having fun with that person. And even then the next step is to go on the phone, have a Zoom date, just have an exchange that feels good. And then you can meet them out. Not everybody wants to do that, but it's certainly a safer step for some people who have had trust issues in the past. And the other—

also a safety issue too, to some degree, right?

Totally. And seeing if that they're real, because the bots or the scammers and all that, they'll never wanna talk to you on the phone. They'll just disappear. That's one of the signs to look for actually. Or they start writing novels to you and you feel like it's almost Dear Abby letters to you. And there's like romantic stuff in there and it's, but they never want to like text you or go on the phone or see you in real life. And then they start asking you for money. There's, it's so easy to detect once you get good at it. And you, again, it all takes practice. But the other pacing thing, like I had a woman who she never dated before and she was in her forties. Like it was really, we were starting from scratch and she finally was getting dates. We fixed her profile. She was looking great. Part of it was just her image. I'm an image consultant too. So I do work with people and their clothes and how they look and how they market themselves, and she was finally getting traction. But then it was going the other extreme where these guys were just writing her and never asking her out. That's also something that shouldn't happen. There should be some sort of desire to connect, and whether that is on phone, text, or in real life is what you should want. And then from there, it's really like collecting data on how you're feeling and the consistency and people's actions matching their words, those are all things to look for in building the trust.

Yeah, that all makes sense. And one, one other part of this too, and I don't think it gets talked about that often, is I think we maybe have talked about it a little bit around it, is the role of self-trust. Our ability to trust ourselves in, in, in relationships and How does trusting oneself affect the ability to trust others in a relationship? And I, that's like what one of those kind of psychological kind of quandaries, but it's an interesting thing. Have you thought about that or have you consulted with others on that issue?

Oh my God, that's everything. Cause really the trust, when you have trust or mistrust with someone, Often it really has nothing to do with the person. It has to do with you and trusting your ability to trust yourself, to have the right picker or pick a healthy relationship. Like my clients deal with this all the time. And like, I just actually hot off the press. I just got off the phone with one of my clients before we hopped on here. And she was really excited about this guy and she started dating him and I was teaching her to slow down and really collect data with this chemistry analysis. That I had her do and all these other things. And she started seeing things that she never saw before. And this whole time she was thinking, I don't trust guys, I don't trust guys. But then she's, wow, like, I started getting anxiety within myself that am I doing the right thing? So there was this kind of conversation with herself. And as she started realizing that, I'm like on the phone with her and I said, where's the anxiety coming from? She's like, I realized I'm just, I'm not trusting myself. I think I made the right decision by letting him go, but I started getting really anxious that I made the wrong decision because I'm not used to this. I'm like, that's good. You broke a pattern. And so it feels strange.

So is that really at the core of what you offer your clients when you work with someone that's trying to get past this is giving them thought processes that help them build that self-trust?

Yeah, part of it is the thought process. It's really, it's 3 things. I call it the MAP method when I work with people. It's working on your mindset, it's working on your approach, and it's working on your perspective. And when those things shift, that's when you start shifting. Because it's not just one thing. It's not me just telling you, go read this book or go say this to this person. It's repetition, it's practice. That's part of the approach. But you also have to have a different mindset around it. My favorite story that I often tell is this woman. She called me up and she's, find me a man. I scoured the earth and I cannot find him anywhere. And I've done all the apps. It's the same guys over and over again. I have tried to meet people in real life. I see the same guys. I go to work every day. But I said, I believe you. She's like, what? I said, I believe that you believe that there's no guys left. She's like, then how can you help me? I said, I quite honestly can't until you start seeing that there are possibilities, that there are good guys out there.

Yeah, that's interesting. And so if you've closed off your mind to even the opportunity that's out there, yeah, you're not gonna You're not going to see it.

And so I, this, the funny ending to this story is I said, look, so she ends up hiring me. I said, I just want you to do one thing before our first coaching call. I always give my clients homework. I said, I want you to take a walk to work like you always do, same routine, but this time I want you to take the blinders off and I want you to look around and notice who's noticing you, in particular men. She's like, I take this routine all the time. I understand that. I'm just asking you to notice who's noticing you. So she goes to work, she comes back and she says, Kimmy, do you have a voodoo doll? I said, no, I don't have a voodoo doll. What happened?

It'd come in really handy right now.

Right?

Yeah.

I said, no, I don't. I'm not that powerful. What happened? She said, I did what you said and I took the same walk to work and I noticed this gentleman sitting on a bench and I looked back at him like you directed me and he's suddenly he calls me over and we had this most amazing conversation. And Kimmy, he asked me out. And Kimmy, he already had a date with me. And I really like him. And that guy ended up being her boyfriend.

Wow. Okay.

All because she noticed something different and had an awareness and had a different mindset of finding something that she had to believe in. But then we had more coaching to do and to how to keep that thing going.

So, sure. You do a podcast up that it sounds like charisma is a big part of your philosophy. So why don't you tell us a little bit about the role of charisma that it plays in creating trust and connection with others? What is charisma? Is that kind of a derivative of what I was talking about, walking into the room with a smile on your face and being positive and being genuine as well? Or is there some other factor of charisma that I'm not thinking about?

Yeah, I love charisma. When I was thinking about the name of my podcast and even just what I do with people, I figured out it really is about charisma because what charisma is, and this is just what research has shown, that it's a learned behavior, interestingly, and What I love about that is that means I can teach it. And I have. I've taught an 85-year-old woman to be charismatic and pick up a guy at a bar all the way down to a 20-year-old. It doesn't like— it doesn't matter how old you are, where you are in life. And charisma, how I define it, is a magnetism that just draws people to you, that there's a playfulness, there's a presence that you exude. And when you have that charisma, that energy, it does allow people to trust you because it's an inviting type of energy that shows that you're happy, you're relaxed, you're playful. And guess what characteristics that's similar to?

Kids. Right. It's true.

We all trust kids. I always say, you look at kids who are like 4 or 5 years old, they haven't developed filters yet. They don't care if Johnny sees Betsy in a playground. He doesn't say, oh, I shouldn't go over there. I shouldn't bother. I know I shouldn't bother. No. He just goes up in a charismatic way and says, hi, what are you doing? Can I play? They're naturally trusting people because nothing has happened to them yet.

That's true.

Think about that.

They're at the early stages where they're not tarnished.

And they haven't developed filters. They haven't developed filters. So they're very, just this kind of blank slate that's just open and inviting. And that's why I do think. The charisma can be really just a space where you can invite people in. Now, it can be done in a manipulative way too.

That was the next question I was going to ask was, how do you do that in an authentic way if a person isn't naturally charismatic? How's a person become magically charismatic?

Yeah, I have a formula that I teach people. A lot of people don't realize this. Charisma quotient is the formula that I use. With all my clients, and that's why it's the name of my podcast. So there's 3 pillars in the Charisma Quotient. Number 1 is what I call style intelligence, meaning how we market ourselves. Because I'm an image consultant, I do believe that you also elicit trust from how you show up in your clothes, your body language, your first impressions, your sex appeal. That all tells a story about who you are, and in an authentic way, it's really putting out your best, like your best self forward. Because at the end of the day, and I can safely say this as a therapist, you could do the inside job till the cows come home. And believe me, the inside job is really important. But if you're not marketing yourself, then love might pass you by, opportunities might pass you by. So once you build that confidence of putting yourself out there, it's like direct feedback that you get from other people. So image is a powerful— this could be a whole other episode, obviously— a powerful thing. So I look at that. The second pillar is emotional intelligence. And obviously we all know that buzzword, but it's how we express ourselves. It is authenticity. It is vulnerability. It's setting boundaries. It's allowing people to know how we feel, but coming from a place of what we want, not what others want. So that's a big piece. Third pillar. Yeah. Key. Third piece is social intelligence. That's how we manage interpersonal communication and relationships. And yes, that includes flirting. So flirting is a big part of my business. I do flirt workshops all the time and people are like, oh, that's so like flighty and superficial. No, I think flirting is part of charisma.

I can totally see how that would be the case. It totally makes sense. Yeah. I mean, because it creates a playful atmosphere. That's what it is, right? Flirting is being a little playful and not taking yourself so seriously.

Exactly. Exactly. Because when you don't take yourself so seriously, and again, you just come from the place of being present and what you want, it builds the trust factor. It really does. I mean, great.

Yeah. Yeah.

If that wasn't a button, I don't know what the—

where did that name of our podcast come from?

I think you should have a podcast on that name.

Trust Factor, right? Yes. But yeah, I agree with you 100%, but What should, what are the kind of the top things that somebody should look for in a potential partner as they assess them? Are they, this charisma thing is one part of that. Obviously, once you get past the charisma part, there's an interest in substance, right? What are some of the characteristic behaviors of starting to unlock that, those characteristics that get beyond the flirting?

So are you talking about in direct relation to trustability?

Yeah, I think, yeah. And that's the early stage of Can I trust to, to go a little further with this person? Can I take the next step? Can I go on a date? Can I— those kind of practices. What are the kind of the behaviors that you should be looking for?

Yeah, when I, I indicated I do this kind of like data collection, data dating in the beginning, and there's certain systems that I have people put in place. I have this chemistry analysis that I have them do. We do like negotiables and non-negotiables to really take a look at. What are the characteristics that are negotiable in a relationship and what are the ones that are just like non-negotiable, and that's really important. It's also looking at how you feel when you're with them, right? And so there's all these things that you look at when it comes to the trust factor, and especially if you have trust issues, there are definitely key behaviors that you'll see when someone is not trustworthy, you know, and one of the things I said is, do they mean what they say and say what they mean? Do their actions and words match? Because a lot of people, especially in that first stage, they, if they are like players or they are people who maybe use charisma in a not so good way, which can happen in a manipulative way, then your, your vision almost gets clouded because you're getting caught up in that excitement of it. And they'll talk a good game, yet their actions don't follow. That's why it's really important to have consistency with dates and just like keeping your eye on certain things rather than getting caught up in the like physicality of it, which often can happen, the draw.

Sure.

Like in that infatuation stage. The second thing is I would also like look at how that person treats other people, you know, like when you're On a date, do they treat the waiter and waitresses kind? Do they show interest in other people and care if they see a kid or a puppy? Like, how do they react to it? Like, notice just how they treat other people. Also, do they ask about you?

Are they interested? Are they genuinely interested to ask thoughtful questions, right?

And about how you feel, which is distinction because Sometimes manipulators will ask questions based on just knowing where you live so they can manipulate you. That's different. That's a different thing than really genuinely caring about like how your day was and how you feel about things. And then actually they remember things that you like and dislike for the next date. So you're looking for little things like that. There's so much more. Also watch for the people who come on hot and heavy. You know, like I call them tornado relationships. You get caught up in the tornado and it's this like, woo, magical sexual kind of attraction. And then as soon as it comes and swoops in, it leaves. And then you're left with all the remnants around you and you're like, oh my God, what just happened? Those hot and heavy, fast and furious ones are definitely like a red flag.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Those are all good points. So the last topic I wanted to talk to you about, and then we can wrap it up, is trust in friendships versus romantic relationships and how that dynamic works. And we're in a new phase now where there's other dynamics. It's not just male-female, it's transgender relationships. There's gay relationships, all this kind of stuff like that too. But how do we, can we be in true friendships with the other sex. I think a lot of people, when you ask them that question, will tell you can't be friends with the opposite sex. It's just not possible because it's always going to turn physical and all this kind of stuff. And I don't tend to agree with that, but there's a lot of people that have had those experiences like we've been talking about here where people have lost trust. And it's like those type of things. I think there is, and I've learned this too, is that I think it is possible to have friends. I've got female friends that I've known for 30, 40 years. Never maybe started out that way many years ago as a physical relationship, but the friendship has persisted for many years and it's not gone back there ever again because they moved on and I moved on and those kind of things. But it's interesting to think about this, especially in the context now of the changing world that we live in now, that there are gender and sex and all stuff like that are all getting mushed up into a mix. And I just wonder about the trust aspects of friendship versus romantic relationships.

It is an interesting conversation. And I also think there's differences in generation because I see it even with my kids. The younger generation, I think, trusts having friendships with the opposite sex way easier than like our generation because The expectations of man and woman were different back then than they are now.

And so all that, totally all those, all that baggage that comes along with that.

Oh yeah. Like I, I have two sons and they have a ton of friends who are women and they don't think anything of it. They're like, mom, they're just friends. Well, I don't get why that's, they don't even get like why that would be a big deal to us. But Yeah, trust is trust. And whether we're talking about a romantic situation, a friendship, friendship of the opposite sex, same sex, to me, it's all the same. Like what creates trust in a relationship holds true with any kind of relationship. And if that person has your back, if that person is a good friend, if there's reciprocity in the friendship where there's benefits going both ways, which is also really important. All of those things is what is more important to look at versus if it's male, female, that kind of thing. Now, I do think that actually there's value in, let's say a woman has been in toxic relationships with men and she has been burned with just men in general. I actually think it's a benefit to be friends with men. To show that there are good men and that there are men that she can trust. And maybe having just a friendship first would be an important step for her rather than jumping into another relationship. So again, it's different for everybody and everybody's journey, but in the end game is the same.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that especially now with people being able to connect electronically on a global scale Yeah, there can be friendships that happen with people that are 6,000, 7,000 miles away from each other and still be able to communicate and be in touch. And that's created a whole different kind of dynamic in relationships and friendships as well as just the accessibility.

Yeah.

Because when I was growing up, your expectations of relationships were like in your local area, like within maybe a 5-minute walking range was basically the parameter that you had to work with because there wasn't electronic communication. And now we have these tools that give us connections with— I do more calls with people outside of the United States now than I do in the United States. So it's, it's, it's opened up the world, but it's also created a different dynamic around relationships, I think.

Oh, it definitely has. And I think this is also a good topic. To end on is that no matter what, as you point out in your podcast all the time about how communication is such an important factor in trust, that there's so many different forms of communication, that in itself can break down communication. There's some people who like to text. There's some people who like the phone. There's some people who like the Zoom. And I think being aware of how people want to be communicated with is really important in building a relationship.

And there's so many ways now, right?

Yeah.

There's FaceTime. There's instant messaging. There's all sorts of these different apps that people are getting involved in that are more communication app, not so much dating apps. Facebook and Twitter and those all have messaging capability too. So you're just getting bombarded with people coming in from their preferred communication platform.

And the way people receive those different messages, like gone are the days where you just pick up the phone and call. Like it's almost now intrusive to do that. Like people will be like, they'll be like, why are you calling me? Yeah. What's wrong? Why are you calling me? And so it's like an etiquette thing too. But look at that dynamic in itself. What if someone just really missed a person and they just pick up the phone and call and then that other person's like, why are you calling me? Now there's this weirdness, but in the relationship. So even that is important. And I also think not being reliant on one form is important because Everything is so tech-driven. If all you're doing is DMing, how can you develop a deeper relationship with that person? Pick up the phone, ask to meet someone.

It's also a reason to be a content creator and a podcaster or something like that too, is cuz I've had this experience even going back to my sports playing days when I was playing competitive basketball, is that people knew me, but I didn't know them. So it puts you in a little bit of an interesting dynamic. And that's my life today is that I do so much media and I'm doing it for for so long that there's a lot of people out there that know of me or know me that I don't even know that are out there. So I get contacted by people all the time on inbound stuff, and I'm like caught off guard because these people probably know me almost as well as I do because they've been watching the New Media Show for the last 5 years or something like that. But I don't even know anything about this person. And so I think being able to communicate like that can put you a little bit at an advantage, but it can also put you at a little bit of a risk too, that all these people know about you and some of them may be fraudsters. So you just don't want to do it.

Who do you trust?

Wanting to hurt you somehow. So it's, it is hard to trust. But Kimmy, it's been great to have you on the show. I appreciate your insights and your thoughts. And I hope this was helpful to my viewers on their journey. Of trying to understand trust and its implications. And so how can a viewer, listener of this find you online to connect with you if they want to work with you or learn more about via your content?

Yeah, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm honored to be one of your first guests, or you, your first guest actually. And yeah, I, something kind of fun since we're talking about trust, if you want to, if you're single and you want to know what kind of dater you are, I have a dating diagnosis quiz that actually goes into different characteristics of you as a dater, and trust is one of them. So all you— and you would just go to KimmySeltzer.com, K-I-M-M-Y Seltzer, like the water, S-E-L-T-Z-E-R.com/quiz, and you can take that. And whether you're a man or a woman, you'll get your answers. And that is my website, KimmySeltzer.com. And actually, all my social handles are @KimmySeltzer. Kimmy Seltzer, and of course my podcast, Charisma Quotient.

Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much. And I can be found on, on Twitter @RobGreenlee and also on LinkedIn and Facebook and all of the social platforms. Or you can send me an email, rob.greenlee@gmail.com. I'd love to hear from you and get your feedback on these topics and what we cover in this program. And we'll cover it in the next episode because my next episode's gonna be a solo cast. So I'm gonna talk about all your feedback that I've gotten. And answer all your questions. And because a lot of the great topics come from you and I appreciate you contributing to the show. And so this is episode 5, so come back and join me for episode 6 and look for me on 100 TV Network on Mondays is when I usually put up the next episode of this program. So thank you so much, Kimmy. Thanks.

Thank you.

Okay. Thank you very much.