Why Most Podcasters Are Making This Mistake

Come on, YouTube. Hey everyone, welcome back to the New Media Show. And yes, Rob is here.

Yeah, I was just on a, on a 10-day trip back to Seattle to spend time with my dad.

I, and I didn't— I think you had told me, but I think I just forgot. So anyway, yeah, a couple of people applied for your job last week, so I would imagine probably so.

Yeah.

Hence why those of you I haven't replied via email—

well, yeah, Todd, sometimes it's good to kind of, you know, shake things up a little bit and try to get people's attention, right?

Yeah, well, I, I guess, you know, so, you know, what's funny is I had put together some, some talking points today and so did you, so we kind of get a mismatch of stuff in two different docs, but They're all good topics, so I guess it depends on how long of an episode we want to make. Well, we're going to try to keep— a couple of suggestions that had come in via the Boost was keep it to 60 minutes, don't go 90.

So that's what I was thinking too, actually. If you're seeing my outline, it says 60 minutes on it.

Yeah, we'll try, we'll see. There is a couple of good things though that, um, popped today, and it's kind of funny because I had run into a bunch of people at the podcast show and said, we got to start changing the narrative, you know, we gotta, we gotta get off this, you know, uh, you know, we need to recapture the narrative that audio is still good. And it's so funny because, you know, this article by Paul, um, from, uh, Paul Rivesendale and his, uh, YouTube isn't dominating podcasting is probably what I would consider probably one of the more balanced, you know, balanced pieces that I've seen in a while.

And Paul's from Signal Hill. Yeah, uh, research. And yeah, I thought it was an interesting article too. But Todd, I think we both kind of knew in the back of our minds that that was probably true, um, that— and increasingly we're seeing Evidence that audio podcasting is still very strong.

Well, it's not evidence. We know it's strong. That's the key.

Well, yeah, that's only in comparison to, I guess, what the focus that's been so heavily on the video side. And so I think that, you know, I think that if you look at Apple Podcasts and we can talk a little bit about what Apple Podcasts announced at the WWDC also that has an impact on podcasting, but they still haven't done what we both hoped that they would have. But we'll see if that's still coming. But this whole thing around the importance of audio is certainly, I have this perception that I've been like all this pro video, pro video stuff. But if you really listen to what I've said over the last few months and really, and I'm trying to emphasize this again because I think that it's been confused. My position on this is that video is kind of like getting more attention now, right? But nonetheless, the history of podcasting, and if you just look at the contrast between consumption of podcasts on iOS versus Android too, I think it gives you a kind of a better picture of what's happening here to some degree. But audio is still growing and it's still a significant contributor to the success of podcasting. And I think video has just gotten more attention because it's kind of like, like you said, Todd, it's a little bit of a, you know, it's the shiny thing. That's kind of in the space right now. And I think maybe this conversation, and this is what I kind of teased on my YouTube channel, is kind of navigating podcasting's confusing future because I think it is a confusing landscape, especially for new creators entering the space that are seeing all of this crazy discussion around how video is taking over, but yet It's difficult to do video, but I think it's even more complex than just that singular issue around how people are getting attention now, personal branding, and all these elements. And the other truth is, is that big shows are growing faster than small shows are. And I think that's something that we have to focus on too, of how do we help small startup audio podcasts grow in this new landscape?

Again, the conversations that I am having, as I said before, uh, they feel disenfranchised, they feel left out, they are being left behind. They feel that— and you know, um, I talked with Chris Kermosis— I apologize, Chris, I always destroy your last name— um, from Podfest, and, uh he thinks that 85% of the podcast market doesn't care about— you know, I, I, you know, I've always said 70%. He said he's more like 85. Of course, he works in the indie, so his— he's more slanted on indie than commercial, I think. And, you know, he— again, he, he kind of had a tendency to agree with me that, you know, we're, we're disenfranchising a lot of potential. And I have a suspicion that maybe part of this discussion is, is that those that are monetizing and those businesses, maybe they're starting to see a decline of new talent and new shows coming in, and maybe they're worried just a little bit. And maybe this is where they go, oh, the golden goose.

Specifically, are you talking about— are you talking about the podcast hosting companies?

I know I'm talking about creators.

Creator— I thought that you were talking about platforms.

No, well, I'm— what I'm talking about is basically that there's this creator economy that is definitely has two camps, you know, and the camp that's in the, in the, you know, back in the deep grass, it's not being paid attention to too much, are feeling disenfranchised. They don't want to do video or they're concerned they have to do video. Someone that's getting in the space thinks they want to do video. So anyway, it's a conversation we've already had, but again, it goes back to where I was talking about audio first graders. Yeah, you know, well, in essentially audio, it's brand new creators that want to do a podcast, but they're telling me that I don't want to do video. Not everyone says that, you know. There's—

I would say that that's, that's, you know, I think it's a spectrum too.

Yeah, it is, it is.

How do you get into video if you're an audio podcaster, I think, is the conversation that we need to have. Well, yeah, it's like, what, what's the easy way to start doing some video but not have it take over your life?

No, what the, what the conversation is, is you need to start with audio and then figure out if you want to do video.

Well, yeah, but I do think that, um, there are trends in the market that would point you to this perspective that doing some video is probably a smart way to build your, your brand awareness for yourself.

No doubt.

As well as, as, um, as grow your— potentially grow some interest in your audio podcast.

No doubt. But they don't want to do it. They don't want to do video.

There's a percent because they're, they're overthinking it because of what they see with the big creators.

I'm sure it all adds— I'm sure it all adds to it.

There's, you know, these fancy sets, all these fancy lights, all of it, fancy cameras, all that stuff are not really necessary.

But it's— but is the perception, and it is the overwhelming thing that they're facing. And they say, I don't have a face, I don't want to be on video, I— you know, so it runs all the things we've heard for years. But it's, it's more amplified now. And, but the problem is, again, this is what I'm hearing as a podcast host. Oh, you can hear it in their voice. I want to do podcasts, you know, but every time I have to video, I don't do video. And I, and I go back to the same conversation we've had 100 times. You can start with audio. Build your audience, find your voice, and build into this. I think that there's two challenges here. Those are existing content creators, you know, they're adding elements and doing stuff in video. They're gonna do that if they wanna build their show. And we're gonna see that. But the true challenge, the true thing that is at risk for the entire space is new creators. And if the new creators are not coming in and they're not have the opportunity to build a big show or build a show that's growing, um, and there's plenty of opportunity to huge opportunity to, so, well, I think the really, really big question, Todd, of all this is, are you really going to be able to grow your podcast audience?

Just doing audio only?

I think so. I think it's—

if you, if you have great content, there's a lot of evidence of that, Todd.

So we see shows growing all the time. We, we have a whole stack of shows that are growing that are audio only.

Okay, um, then why is— why aren't there new creators? I mean, because usually the new creators follow success, right? So is there something about audio now that is not working right? I know, right? Based on the expectations of the audience. And I guess my increasing thought is that we need to do, as an industry, we need to do a better job of helping those audio creators determine what the best path forward is to actually grow their show, not just concept. It may be, Todd, and I'm just throwing the baby out there. Yeah. And hopefully it doesn't go with the bathwater, but it's to, you know, think about ways that we can help those audio creators be successful and what are the pathways for helping them accomplish that. And if it includes some, like, maybe just doing short-form video, vertical video that's put out there as a personal brand, brand development. I'm starting to talk more and more about how important it is to build personal brand of the host, even over building the brand of the podcast as the key to growing now. And that may include building your reputation in the area or the genre that you're doing your podcast about.

Yeah, great content is going to succeed.

Well, that's a given now. It's almost like that's, that's table stakes. But it's also very, very, very subjective to say it's got to be good content. Well, what is— what does it look like to make good content?

It's subjective.

It is. And I think that, that is what one of those things that if we keep telling new creators, well, it's got to be great content, then they're going to be confused because they don't know what great content looks like. I think what's the expectation in the market?

I think my expectation as a podcaster is feedback, engagement of the community.

Time, doesn't it?

Sure.

It takes time to get feedback. A lot of creators, when they get started, they don't get any feedback.

Now that's true.

And, and, and so they get lost in this quagmire of feeling like you're speaking alone into the microphone and nobody's listening. And so a period of time goes by where maybe there's a chance the show isn't growing, but what can they do to be able to find that audience that would be interested in their show? And I think that's the challenge.

Every creator today, and it hasn't changed from the beginning of time has to do a whole bunch of stuff, and usually they're wearing one hat. They have to do all the things that, uh, you know, you have to be out there and social, you have to be, you know, promoting your episodes, you have to be clipping. None of this has changed, none of it, none of this, none of those fundamentals— participating in community, going where your listeners are— all that stuff still applies. Here's the problem. Everyone wants a damn easy button, right? And there's no easy button. You know, you, you, you gotta work. And, you know, we had a call yesterday. We have office hours every Tuesday, and, you know, had great conversation with podcasters. And we were talking about stats specifically, as a, you know, spend an hour on stats. And, you know, again and again and again, and I was blown away. Thank you for what you're doing. We're having great success with our show. We're reaching people. And then I'm hearing from these people that, you know, the other calls I'm having during the week are, you know, I want to grow my show, help me grow my show. And all these other folks are on the call yesterday, like, oh, we're doing good, we're growing, da da da, we're talking with sponsors. But, you know, and these were folks that have been podcasting— the average age of all those podcasts that were— I think there was 14 on the call— 2 years plus, actually 3 years plus. So there wasn't anyone in the call that was in that 0 to 3 years because I was trying to get a feel where everyone was at. So I was enthused. I was like, oh my God, we got all the folks on this call are 3+ year podcasters and they're loving what they're doing. Um, but I, you know, I, I think social media and branding is— I've talked about it, you and I've talked about it— it's critical, you know?

Yeah, yeah. It just may be more important now than ever. And I don't know that there's a clear, or I don't know that there's been clear, I guess, communication to new creators around what the best pathway is on how to do all this stuff. But it's going to be different for everybody and it may not work for everybody. That's the reality of it.

And I've got a doc somewhere that I have like It's like a— I think it's— I used to call it like a 13-step plan or something like that, and I have not— I used to speak on it. Matter of fact, I have to dig those out. It was all about these are the things you have to do, and you know, the video component is probably the 14th now, you know, the 14th or 15th, 14th, 15th, 16th item. Um, but you know, as a As a, as a solo, as an indie with no staff, you know, how have I been able to multiply my time? I've finally got someone that helps me with pre-production. They're a fan of the show. I'm able, luckily, to be able to pay him to do that, but he started as a volunteer helping the show. And, and so I think what we really need to do is make sure people are empowering their audiences, say, hey, you know, I Let's grow this together. Help me. And I think, you know, they can help with these extra components of stuff. And the tools are pretty fantastic right now in doing clipping and, and all that stuff. So, you know, we've, we've even at Blueberry tried to make it easier to do clipping so that you can essentially get in and have clips made in 10, 15 minutes. But people are time constrained right now. Everyone's busy. Super, super busy.

So, and that maybe I'm trying to learn from larger successful shows on the strategies that they're taking, but growth, and it's, and it's hard to translate that into an individual single podcaster that's just launching an audio podcast.

Well, difficult because those folks have teams.

Well, that's exactly kind of my point, right? Is it's increasingly taking a team to build a podcast now. Well, I'm not sure that the industry is really talking about the professionalization of this medium in a way that is, you know, accessible to new creators like it was in the past.

But, but again, those people that have teams are already generally have been successful in making revenue, right? Content already. So it's not— again, it's— there's an apples— there's not an apples and apples situation here. They're on it. They're— they started at a different level. They started like an Oprah, you know. Well, you know, at that level they were already a semi-celebrity, semi— so it's, it's hard. It's almost impossible to make those comparisons and Again, I think as an individual podcaster that does not have a team, which again makes up probably 85% of the podcasting space today, they just got to do what they got to do. They gotta, they gotta, they gotta be able to work. I, I, Rob, you know, I just remember years and years and years ago, people used to ask me, how do you have time? How do you have time? I didn't sleep. So, but it wasn't all about promoting the show, was running a business, working, and doing a podcast and kids.

Right. You know, now it's like the number one question that I get asked is, you know, can I make money from the first episode?

No. Yeah. 10 cents.

See, that's part of what the conversation is now. Right. And it's, and because what's happened is that people have a need for that. And that's, well, and this whole thing of creating a side hustle and creating multiple streams of income, all this kind of stuff has, has come into this medium and has, uh, has built expectations. And so if the expectations are not fulfilled, then people get disappointed.

Then someone's lying to them.

Well, no, it's based on the individual's needs.

Well, okay. So if, if you— okay, this is a tough conversation, right? Right.

The market has shifted towards people building side hustles, and that's being heavily promoted on all these social.

Then guess what side hustles require? Incredible heart. Who's making money on side hustle advice? The people that are giving side hustle advice. Yeah, right.

Well, you know, that's certainly true.

So, you know, so I think I think we have to have this reality check.

Well, that cuts both ways on this, Todd. The reality check on what's possible versus the reality check on what the hype is, is—

well, that's— they're completely disconnected. Oh yeah. So, you know, you know, they don't realize, you know, I go back to— they don't realize that You know, here's, here's the thing. You and I've been in this a long time. We didn't have Facebook, Twitter, or X. We didn't have Instagram. We didn't have any of this stuff in the beginning.

Talk and nothing. Even newer platforms that are coming out now that are, that are offering a complete different content mashed with e-commerce.

We had nothing in the beginning. And can you imagine taking all this stuff away from those folks down and say, now you need to, you need to build a show? And they, they wouldn't even start.

Yeah, it is now possible to launch a show. I mean, I, I do it, um, I try and do that with everybody I work with, but it's to launch with programmatic, right?

Yeah.

So, so that That matches the expectation.

Yeah, yeah. Until they, until they see their 10 cents, right?

Until they see the actual check that comes.

But, or not even a check until they get to $50.

But they think, yeah, they think they've been enabled for monetization. That's where in the past the conversation was, well, you got to start a show, you got to do, you know, 50 episodes before you can even think about start starting to make money, was the conversation.

You see, you see, Libsyn just made it so that you can have zero downloads, like Blueberry and Spreaker. And we've all been allowing our podcasters to do programmatic from the beginning, but you know, we set expectations. But it is kind of funny that they included a calculator.

That's all they did.

They did. Here's your expected downloads, will give you— here's your expected revenue. You know, it's kind of like that. You, you have a calculator so you can have the, uh, the ugly baby discussion, right?

Right.

And, um, So obviously they're feeling the pressure to allow shows to monetize in the very beginning. But you know, this, this focus on monetization, that's what I actually— I'm not hearing that conversation. I mean, I mean, like 5% of my discussions I have with podcasters, that isn't the conversation I'm having. Um, you know, it continues to be growth. And then for new podcasters, it's a whole different— it's very, very little about monetization. So I think there's definitely these two tiers, and I think YouTubers are thinking, I gotta, I gotta make money in the beginning.

Well, you do have to— even on YouTube, you have to put in some investment in, uh, producing episodes so you get qualified, right? It's so not like starting out right at the beginning, right?

So, you know, if they, if they want to— this is maybe that's analogy we should be given to podcasters. Well, I want to make money on episode 1. Well, you make money on YouTube and on episode 1? No, you have to have—

YouTube makes money on episodes.

Yeah, you have to make, you have to make 4,000 hours of whatever it is, whatever the qualifying is that you have to have. A thousand?

It's actually 2,000 now.

Oh, they lowered it.

Yeah, I still have—

I still haven't qualified.

Yeah, it's a thousand, I think it's I think it's, uh, 1,000 subscribers and 2,000 hours of watch time.

So again, yeah, so if they can't qualify on YouTube, then— so it's, it's just like, you know, so I think we have to—

it's the same thing with Spotify.

So then we need to really tell these podcasters and whatever, however you want to call them, audio, video, or whatever, um you've got to build an audience. You know, you want to make this a side hustle and side hustles don't come with hustle.

So that's where this conversation loops back to what I was saying earlier, Todd. What are, given what's happening with social media, given what we're seeing, the perception of podcasting, and this was in my outline too, was, is increasingly being seen as part of social media. So there's like this—

Yeah, it's part of the whole package.

Merging together between what we see in social media around audio and video, primarily video on that side. So that may be contributing to this conversation about how video is entering podcasting as we're now looking at the media landscape as being influential from a holistic perspective now. And that is driving this narrative because I think the researchers look at YouTube and they think of it as a derivative of the social media landscape, right? So now it's being lumped in with podcasting and we keep increasingly talking about video, which has strong linkages to social media. So that's where this conversation is becoming a little bit confused. Is that we may be talking about two different things here, two different mediums of sorts, but they're mushing together right now in people's perceptions from the audience side primarily. And it's slowly coming along from the creator side that those YouTubers are thinking about making an audio podcast, which taps into your tool increasingly. So, you know, This perception is merging together. Yeah, I think that's what's causing this.

I think, again, I just, you know, I've, I've tried to let YouTube feed me some stuff here in the last couple of weeks. I haven't seen any long format podcasts. I've seen 3-minute shorts and, oh, okay, that was interesting.

That's a clue right there. I've been, I've been increasingly playing with shorts too. And I think I see stronger numbers in shorts, but the question gets back to is how does that convert into audience?

I don't think for me it doesn't.

Well, I mean, it's hard to quantify that, Todd, because there isn't any— I think that the, the shorts platforms need to give the ability better to have people click to, to another longer version of that.

That is not— that is— that's missing with the Elago.

Well, it is, and it's— and it's missing because a lot of these platforms want people to, to only be on their platform. Of course, they don't know— really make it easy to link off to another platform.

Like, penalizes it if you put a link to something in the original post.

So what they're incentivizing is people uploading directly to theirs. Of course., right? And that breaks the whole model around lock you in podcasting. It breaks it.

Yep, lock you in.

And that's, that's another aspect of this that needs to be thought about too. You know, there was talk at one point that X was going to support RSS feeds, but that has never materialized.

Of course it would never will materialize. They will, they will not do it. I guarantee you that if they do it, I'd be shocked because RSS is open, and open means, you know, again, if you consume it— I guess if they consume it on X, why would they care if they want to?

That's the bigger takeaway here. Yeah, is it like you've been saying all these years, you, you don't really care where— no, assume— but, but you do care where it comes from, right? And I think that's That's the other part of this. And that's what Spotify is trying to break too, is, is the RSS-based delivery. So if we could convince X to ingest RSS feeds, then I think that would be a win-win, um, in the bigger picture. But the bigger question is who would actually host the media file? Would it be X?

Probably. Yeah, potentially.

I mean, Just like what happens with YouTube today.

Yeah. Again, I think in the end, the narrative, you know, the article Paul did is a good first step. And I think that there needs to be more companies that come out and promote audio as a continued fantastic— and I've been doing it, been doing it on LinkedIn, I've been doing it on my personal website, have been— we've been talking about it at Blueberry. Um, that the, the education on the creator's side, they need to understand that. I think all this video stuff aside, I think what the industry has to really come back and say is, okay, we understand this is over here, we understand there's opportunities, there's discovery, there's listeners over there that you can gain. But if you're coming in and getting started, doing audio in the beginning is okay. And actually, it's probably a good strategy to start audio first.

Yeah, I would tend to agree with that.

You know, find your, find your sea legs, find your voice, build your content, get your rapport, start getting guests booked in. And if you know, and don't worry if you don't have a face for video. Don't worry about this other stuff. You're going to have a hard enough time getting 10 good questions and pacing to ask that guest, or go solo and have content to do every week. There's a job in itself in just getting show prep done. That, that is, that is more work than recording.

Yeah, but Todd, that's not necessarily the strategy for fast-growing shows though. That, but, but that's the, but that's, that's the real rub here. Well, what is the proper strategy for growing an audio podcast?

Then put your, then put money where your mouth is. Hire a team. If you want a fast-growing, you're gonna have to have 3, 4, 5 people that are doing all of this stuff again. But I don't exactly what the big creators are doing, Todd, and that's why they're they're being successful, and that's why small creators are saying, do I even want to do this?

Well, I do remember a time, um, not too long ago when, um, um, there was a few creators that were, that were discouraging people from starting a podcast.

Well, there, there's a person on, on Facebook right now in one of the popular groups right, that says— this is what he said— if you're not doing video, what are you trying to hide? What do you mean trying to hide? He's making an accusation that because you're not doing video, you have something to hide. And I thought, what an asshole. What an absolute asshole, saying, what do you, what do you have to hide? Making accusation that, you know, because you're only doing audio, have something to hide. What, you're going to tell that to the 65-year-old grandma that's recording a podcast? Are you going to say that to a woman that's, uh, you know, living in a foreign country that don't want her face to be seen? Are you going to say that to— you know, there's just so many variables. It's wrong.

And there is another way of looking at that, and that's, that's if those people don't want to, to do that, right? Certainly their, their choice not to.

But he's, he's making this accusation in a podcast Facebook group, and people are having the feeling like they have to defend themselves. Yeah, of course. And I'm like, why, why? I'm not going to defend myself. I've been doing video. But if someone doesn't want to do video, I said, it's my choice, it's my show. Pack sand. You know, so I, I just, you know, I think as in the key in the industry is we have to just— it's simple, it's very simple. Audio is still incredibly viable. You can build an incredible audience. It's going to take work, lots of work. You're gonna have to do all the things. You gotta— you're gonna have to be pre-production, production, post-production, social promotion, email newsletter sender, clip creator. You got to do all these things. You got to. That hasn't changed from 10 years ago.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah, definitely hasn't changed. It's the same.

It hasn't made— I mean, I was hoping by now it would be easier to get all this stuff set up, but it's not because it is easier. It's It's, well, it's pretty fragmented. And actually, I think with the AI stuff, I think AI has added a lot of work.

Well, I mean, it saves a little bit, but it also adds stuff. We've done stopwatch testing from a just pure production standpoint. It's quicker. When it comes to social, no, what it's added. What it's added is before, I, I couldn't do shorts. I couldn't. I just didn't have time.

Is it, is it better though?

Oh, I think so.

But is it— oh, we're seeing huge better than what a human would do.

Oh, I'm not talking about the recording of the content.

I'm just telling— no, I'm talking about all of the— I'm just like you, Todd. I'm talking about like the pre-production, post-production type of AI work from, uh, Right.

And I think it goes back to what I said before. You record for your audience, you do the post-production work for Google and the AI crawlers. In that regard, absolutely, it's better for those that are doing it.

Better or just more efficient?

Uh, higher quality. Uh, most, you know, for years I used to say, God, Rob Greenlee, and they'd put one line as a horrible episode title and one paragraph of show notes. You know, now, and now at least we're getting comprehensive show notes, we're getting transcripts, we're getting media that has been normalized. Uh, you know, there's 4 or 5 things that have drastically improved. So what have we done? We've went from absolute underutilization of what you could have done if you'd have done it manually to now being just, I mean, primo in the titling and the, and the meta content and, you know, the transcripts and the chapters and all that stuff is just superb. Does it, does it help the audio content? Well, that's up to the creator, right? You know, but I think it can, being that there is, you know, probably an outline and they can help themselves stay on track and, and follow a pattern with the show. But, you know, the social piece, what it's done is I would have never, before AI, never made clips, never made shorts, never done any of that. I wouldn't have.

Yeah, it could be automated to some degree now.

Yeah, you still have to hand touch it.

There's the Opus Clips.

Yeah, but it's not— you still have to touch it, you know. You're—

well, if you're not doing any any video, then it's not even an option for you.

So, right, but we made clipping available for just pure audio podcasters. There's an image put up and you, you know, yeah, yeah. So we've got all that if you're not doing any video. So the, the key there is, is now at least they can spend the 15 minutes if they choose, which makes it longer because we've given some tools to be able to do clips. But not everyone does.

Some people just don't put their content up, so Yeah, I wonder if we'll ever get to a point, Todd, where— well, I guess that's what you're, you're doing there, but it's, it's creating a clip, uh, in a video, but it's just audio, right? Right. So you have like maybe a motion graph.

Yeah.

Or something like that.

Something similar to Headliner, what Headliner does with pure audio.

Yeah. But is that effective though, is the question.

Oh yeah, it's just as effective as anything else because it goes up on Twitter and Facebook and You know, it gets plays, you know, but it gets—

it's as effective as a, as a— I don't know. I don't—

video, I'm sure. Again, it all depends on how many people are actually tuning into your social. So there's a whole bunch of variables, you know. It really, it really depends. Again, it— higher the content—

you were to post, post a motion graphics audio to TikTok Do you think it has the potential to get the same amount of engagement?

Yes. You know why? Because someone's gonna flip in TikTok and not even know that you're hitting your— they're not seeking you out in TikTok. You just show up.

Well, also, also, a lot of people have their audio turned off.

Oh, that's, that's— we give the closed caption, so—

no, I mean, yeah, that's what I'm talking about, is that I mean, a lot of people will have their audio.

Yeah, so we have our—

we have all it sees is the text on the screen.

Yeah, we have that set up. Yeah, yeah. So, but again, I— if you only have 10 followers on TikTok, you're not going to get the word, right? You know, so it's all relative. Yeah, but you know, you know, the audience is growing in, in podcasting, so you know, like, more opportunity for the shows that are there, for sure.

Yeah, I was looking at that, um, that Signal Hill article, Todd. I don't know if you have it up that you can pull up on the screen, but it is a little bit of a confusing message on here based on what I'm seeing, because the first slide that it has up here shows in April of 2025 YouTube has the highest percentage of weekly podcast consumers who use the platform.

He's not— he's not— his argument is essentially is that YouTube doesn't own it all.

Well, yeah, I'm just looking at these two slides. So, and then the next one down, it says most used podcast platform.

So we have, um, oh yeah.

And then right below it says a majority, 61% of podcast consumers use other— I agree with that— platforms other than YouTube most often.

So makes sense.

So, and that's, that's kind of opposite of what the slide above it says.

No, what they're, what they're, what they're saying here is, is that percent is weekly podcasts who use platforms the most. So YouTube, Spotify, and Apple. So Apple together was— they're low. This is incredibly low. Of course, we don't compare YouTube. Um, they said 29% and YouTube is 39%. Well, where's the rest? That's all others. That's what they're referring to.

Where's, where's the 29%?

Okay, so 30 excuse me, 21 plus 8 is 29%. Oh yeah, right. Okay, so if you think about 39, 39 on YouTube and 29 on other Spotify and Apple Podcasts, and then you have— what's my math here? Let me do that, my fuzzy math set. What is that, 78? What's that number total, grand total? Anyway, so in the end there's a whole bunch of other listening happening somewhere else that's just not on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's on Overcast, Pocket Cast.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that's where they get the 61.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

That's where the remaining percentage comes in.

Okay, so all, all the other listening platforms.

Yeah, everything.

Yeah. And Pocket Cast and all those are part of the 61%.

And it's, you know, it's, it's half a percent You know, it's, it's, it's, it's 0.25% or 1.5%. You know, and there's a, you know, 100 of those that have, you know, less than 1%, right? Right. You know, so there's probably more. Um, but I think the argument here is, is that there's a distribution of listeners, right? And viewers or whatever you want to say.

And if, if you're not doing something— see, this is the conversation about growth, right? Is, is if you're not doing YouTube, then you're missing out on 39 possible percent of—

according to, according to this, right? And then in the opposite could be said. If you're just doing YouTube, you're missing 61% of the, of the audience. So, you know, so it goes both ways.

Well, if you're only doing—

right, right, right.

Yeah, if you're only doing YouTube.

But, you know, I think I agree with what, you know, Adam and some others have said here recently, is that this will work itself out, but we're going to have to give it a couple of years because there's going to be all these folks that have been sold this bill of goods, and they're going to go over there and figure out, number one, it's hard. Number 2, you're not going to get monetized. And guess what? Guess what it is in audio podcasting? It's hard. You're not going to get monetized. So it's, you know, it's—

yeah, I mean, yes, but that's, that's a, that's kind of a failure mentality though, isn't it?

Well, it's— nothing has changed.

No, I know, but, but if you're ambitious and you want to create a success for yourself, you probably don't think like that.

Well, if you're ambitious and you want to be a success for yourself, then you will work the hours and put in the time required to be successful. You won't be— you won't be a, um, is there a word? You won't be a side— okay, don't— I know I'm gonna get destroyed here. Don't be a side hustle bro that isn't able to make it with a side hustle. If everyone could make it with a side hustle, no one would have a regular job.

Well, that may be, that may be the future we're heading into, Todd, with AI.

Rob, I have a job.

I know, Todd, but you look to the future, nobody may have a job.

Yeah. Yeah, that again, there's no alternative for us.

I look, look out 2 to 5 years from now, all of us may have to create side hustles at some point.

Well, I'll use the word that Google said. I believe I heard this more than 2 years ago. There's the people that are the creative types. They're going to be super good. They're going to be great. There's the subject matter experts. They're going to be super great. They're good. It's among people in the middle that does the thunking, they're screwed. A case in point, I've got an employee— I don't know, did I tell you on this in the last show? I've got an employee, she's getting— I won't say her age, but she's ready to spend more time with her grandkids. Oh, got it. Yeah. And, um, she came to us and said, hey, I don't want to do full-time anymore, I want to knock back to 35 hours. Right? And, um, and we only work— we actually pay our employees for 40 hours for 36 hours of work anyway. So she wanted— maybe she went back to 30 hours, but anyway, she wanted to go back to less hours. And she says, I'm able to get the work done anyway because I'm using AI, and we're, you know, we're saving— we're just being more effective. And so essentially Even though she's rolled back her time, um, we're, we're essentially getting about the same performance with her having to work less hours. And, um, I didn't plan it that way, it's just kind of the way it happened. So, um, but she's happy, she doesn't have to be in meetings that we're doing every day of the week, you know. She sees what her tasks are in Jira and You know, it, it works out. So AI is going to have an effect for sure. I think it'll have a big effect. But Apple— and I don't know about Apple and what they announced. To me, it's just, yeah, it was good that Colin got a shout out, um, with his app. He got a, what, 5 seconds or 10 seconds or whatever it was. His app. Um, I'm trying to think of his last name. Um, uh, uh, uh, Colin Gray. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, um, so what was his app?

His app is, um, Altuo. Don't—

holy crap.

Oh yeah, Altuo. Yeah, so he got a call out during the WWDC keynote And, uh, so I think it's Alto. Alto, yeah, yeah. But, you know, good to him. You know, Colin, you know, he's one of these unsung heroes. He drove us an incredible amount of business in his early days of, of podcasting. He was one of our top affiliates for a number of years, and then he's out of the UK. Yeah, now he's kind of doing his own thing, so I'm, I'm sexually happy for him and, and what he got there. But, um, you know, so they've done some stuff. You got a list here: enhanced dialogue, custom playback speeds. Well, Marco, I think there was a— someone kind of did a giggle giggle that Marco's worried now because of the custom playback speeds. Don't listen at 1.2 or 1.5. It'll make you, um— there is some truth to this. Don't, don't laugh at me. If you listen to shows faster than 1x speed, it can cause higher levels of anxiety. So just be careful.

Get stressed out by it.

Oh, I can't do it. I do it, it, you know, it's just like drink 5 cups of coffee and, you know, so it's just too much.

Yeah, you're trying to, trying to live your life and not get doing a mic, doing mic routing.

Oh, the AirPods. Please don't record a podcast with AirPods, but you know, some will. It's okay.

Well, it's— yeah, I think that the mic routing is that you can assign a different microphone to each app or a different app, right? Yeah, so if you have a—

if it's pre-configured, you don't have to change it. Correct. So what's happening is, is they're making— for those of you that are Mac users, the iPad in iOS 26 is going to have a departure. It's going to be more like the desktop or your laptop than it is like the iPhone. So they're, they're aligning them much, much closer together. You'll have kind of similar experience, but this glass thing that they're doing, it's got me worried, you know. And they're smart.

We'll see what the big, uh, revolution around this glass thing.

Yeah, it's just, it's a UI thing. It's just to make it—

is it just a gimmick?

Yeah, I think it's still make it try to look pretty. Who knows?

It's just a gimmick.

I don't, I don't— I, I just want my phone to be usable. I don't need a gimmick, you know. Let me get to my email quicker. Let me get to my text message, you know.

Yeah, I mean, when's Apple going to actually come out with anything that's innovative? I don't see anything on this list that I consider to be innovative.

A lot of stuff the Android's already done, but they trade feature stuff all the time.

Yeah, I know that, uh, with, um, Tim Cook's been under a little bit of external pressure, um, by the Apple, Apple community to resign.

Oh, that's interesting. Why is that?

Well, because Apple seems to be stuck, that they're not really announcing any, any new products. They're not really announcing anything that was like what they used to do when Steve Jobs was in charge, right? Where they would come out with a new device or a new platform that was Changing the game.

You know what, you know what I think? The majority—

small updates, it's just small little changes is all that they announced.

I bet you if we could get inside data to the usage of an iPhone or an Android, I bet you it would be broken down into about 5 things: taking pictures, yeah, sending SMS messages, right, talking on Facebook, and listening to music. I think, and maybe some games. What else? And some podcasts. But what else are people using their phones for? And most people are not.

I mean, Todd, I mean, just think about the app infrastructure, right? And also, um, also contrast that to what's going on with AI. Apple seems to not get or understand or know they're behind. How to deploy AI, which is— that's going to hurt them. Well, actually, I sold all my stock, or actually most of my stock, in Apple because I, I've kind of lost faith.

And I think what they're also seeing is we have to be really careful, even internally in the company. We scrutinize everything that's an output of AI, and invariably we will find— and when we're editing documents, we will find one or two things typically that is wrong. And, you know, we have to be real careful that we don't get into this sing-song type of publishing of content that all looks the same. Has— so we have to really work hard at it. So my thought maybe is, is that Apple said it's not ready, and, you know, they're pretty particular about what they put out, or, or they're just simply behind and they move slow. It's as evident in the podcast app.

Yeah, I mean, yeah. And they didn't add the toggle between audio and video. No, this time.

No, I didn't. I— if we get that, it'll be 2 years.

Well, that speaks to the problem here, Todd.

Well, you know, and I look at even internally at my company, I can only turn stuff out. So if I'm a small company and I got a small dev team, Believe it or not, the Apple Podcast team has a relatively— on my understanding, and I might be wrong, so I might be speaking out of my butt here— but they have a relatively small timeshare of amount of time the devs— dev utilization they get on the Apple Podcast app. There's not— I don't think there's dedicated programmers for the Apple Podcast. I don't think so. Maybe I, you know, this is my hypothesis.

No, I'm sure there's not. I mean, that's just one of the apps that the team updates occasionally.

But what's something I've got the team looking into it. We had an unusual spike in Apple Podcasts utilization in May. They were, they had a 10-point jump off of average, and I got the team digging into why. And in the usage or the downloads, in the, in the percentage of, uh, usage. And, you know, they went from 49 to 59. And, uh, you know, usually we'll see, you know, hover 2 or 3 points. But, uh, I got one of my devs looking into it, figuring out where did this bump come from.

Uh, yeah, because it seems like, you know, some of these things that Apple added were should be pretty low on the priority as far as features to add to any, any platform. I mean, it's like, look at, you know, like the custom icons and, and stuff like that, you know, with different colors.

Some of that stuff is just easy. It's easy. It's low-hanging fruit. It's just easy. It's easy to do. So, you know, maybe, you know, I've got all kinds of I have this short list of like 3 hours of coding time.

Auto sleep detention, you know, detection— is that really a feature that anybody really cares about?

I don't. You see what I have? You see what I have here? I have my fly swatter. I got a fly that's been dive-bombing me for 2 days.

You were talking about bug killing in, uh, in Apple's—

no, I have, I have, I have a fly that's been dive-bombing me for 2 days. He He doesn't know it yet. Either time or I will get him with the fly swatter. Um, and I've had a shower today, so yeah, we have the killer instinct. Yes. And the key is you have to be careful where you slap around here because I may end up jacking the switcher and then it will show some something weird on my screen. So who knows?

Yeah, or my audio will go mute all of a sudden.

Yeah. Hey, by the way, so what's going on with the Podcast Hall of Fame?

Well, it's ramping back up. So I'm trying to get it, you know, I've done some calls with the podcast folks, and we're strategizing about how we want to move forward. So that's the, that's the stage that we're at. I know we're about 6 months out now. So this is the kickoff time to start gathering Any new nominations for consideration? Oh, so who should—

so should they email you?

If you want to send me an email, that's fine. Rob.Greenlee@gmail.com. And I'd be happy to consider nominations at this point and to add to the pool of folks. I haven't publicly released the list of the current nominations that are in the list.

Have we done that before?

I've never done that before.

Are you going to do that this year?

That I might, might consider doing that, just so people know who's in the list or not. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't think that—

what's your thought about that, Todd?

I don't think it would hurt. Transparency is always good. Yeah. And then what it would do is it would cause people to say, ah, how come he or she is not on the list. But you also have to make sure you put the criteria there on what the qualifications are to get on the list.

Oh, that's already on the website.

Oh, okay. So yeah, yeah, so, hmm, well, the Academy Awards, they always say who the nominees are.

Yeah, I, I It can be a pretty long— I mean, I think it's currently probably close to probably 80 names so far. So, you know, I mean, it might help those that are considering to nominate someone to know who's already nominated, right? So they don't— so I don't get a bunch of emails from people saying, well, this person should be inducted, and, and, but they're already on the list.

So the challenge then is, is when someone knows they're on the list, because I don't know if people even know they're on the list.

There's, there's probably most of them on the list probably don't even know, right?

So if they know they're on the list, then it could end up being campaigns of emails to the other, the, uh, say, hey, please vote for me, here's who I am.

I would— and I also want to expand the pool of voters too.

So yeah, then how do you do that? Now, who, who would you invite? There has to be some criteria to that. Yeah, you know, because—

yeah, I haven't actually specified that, so I don't even want to say.

Yeah, and again, how do you come up with that list, you know?

Yeah, because currently the only voters that exist in the Hall of Fame are people that have already been inducted.

Because let's— and I'm, I'm just going to use a name here, and let's say you invited James Cridland to vote, then could he— if he gets on the list, he would be then probably excluded from being able to vote. So how do you then— you know, there's the problem. If you have— I don't know, you know, I'm just—

I think it's clear that it's— I mean, you can say in the rules you can't vote for yourself, but Yeah, so I think that's, that's probably covered by that.

Here's, here's the guarantee: someone would be pissed off no matter what.

Of course, but that's just a given, Todd. I mean, because I made a lot of, a lot of statements, uh, last year that I was going to expand it internationally. Yeah. And so the only way that I can see that I can actually accomplish that is to get some other people, the voters. Oh, and to people outside of the U.S. too. Not so much ever— I mean, most of the people that are voting today are, are people in the U.S.

So what we should actually have is another Hall of Fame in London associated with the podcast show. Doesn't have to be as big of a deal, but there could be a— you look at James, he got recognized by the Academy of Podcasters. And I don't know how that happened. Like, you know, that was kind of outside. Again, I, you know, he deserves it. But again, then what, you know, what criteria? You know, because it'd be— because there's a lot of people that should be in the Hall of Fame that just— there were so backlogged. Yeah. And if you're going to open up international, there should be some— maybe it's not as a grand of event, but figure something out where they can have an interview that tells their story that's so important that happens during the awards ceremony. That's the true value of hearing these people's stories. That's the incredible part about the people that are actually nominated, um, that basically are the winners, or don't want winners, but you know, who makes the— who makes up the inductees, those stories they tell. And you would not want to discount the inductees telling their story, but it'd be nice if we could maybe start in Europe.

Yeah, I was thinking about this just like a couple weeks ago, that, um, there isn't a lot of examples of, of an event like the Podcast Hall of Fame that is truly international, right? I know that there's there's a Hollywood kind of awards ceremony. I think it's the International Press Awards event that happens down in LA every year, which is international. The other element of this too is that sure, we can have nominees that are from Europe and from Asia and all that kind of stuff that can be added to the list. But the question gets back to is, Will those people actually travel to accept their awards anyway? So, so those people could, I guess, do a video.

So maybe the opportunity is you have a London event for people in Europe, then you have something in Australia that someone down there can— some event that happens in Australia, the people that deserve to be— and maybe it's Australian Podcast Hall of Fame.

Right, I have 4 or 5 people that are in Southeast Asia's Podcast Hall of Fame.

And, you know, so maybe it's, you know, you have— you can't do it all in one go, but maybe you could do Australian. You can do maybe Australia, New Zealand. And because I don't know a lot of podcasts out in New Zealand, but mostly Australia. But maybe you could do— because I'm sure there's a, you know, down there they have their own. I don't know the characters in Australia, but James and other folks do, so Um, you may have to do like Gary did the first year, say, okay, here's the first 5 people that we're going to induct in Australia, or give me the list.

Yeah, I suppose. I mean, if it was set up like, um, a small group in Australia organized a, you know, a local in-person Hall of Fame event, right? So it isn't like, you know, every event has to be organized from here necessarily. And, and have that scattered around the, the world. Like in Asia, you can have one in Asia and Malaysia or, or a place like that that covers that part of the world, and then have one down in Australia that covers that area down there, which isn't that far away.

And I think you honor them all the same. You put them on the Podcast Hall of Fame site by region, and maybe it's not even by region, maybe it's just They're in the list. I, I, I think it's doable. It's just not going to be maybe done the way from a presentation-wise that you want, but there's just so many deserving.

And maybe it's, um, it's something that I can get into a partnership with the podcast show to put on in London. Yeah, to cover, cover Europe.

But they don't have a— well, they have stage events, so maybe it can be— yeah.

You know, so yeah, so I, I mean, it would still be the Podcast Hall of Fame. It just would be like a, like almost like a chapter of the event.

And those, those trophies aren't cheap, so they would take some money. Oh yeah, to do it.

You know, I plan on trying, trying to obtain more sponsorships this year because I think those trophies are like $400 apiece. I don't know that.

I think that's what I paid for my replacement was $370.

Yeah, but okay, anyway, I think it's definitely in that $300.

Yeah, they're, they're hunkered, they're a rock.

But anyways, well, they're, they're, they're crystal.

Yeah, so right, yeah, it causes my, causes my, uh, my, my causes, causes the shelf to sag, right?

Or you can see mine up here.

Yeah, yourself is sagging too.

I don't think it's that.

You need an extra 10 pounds on the airline to go home. Right.

So I think that, you know, I'm going to start— I'm going to update the website here soon and I'll just put up the list of names of nominees in there and I'll put out a press release and we will start out there. And then at the bottom of that announcement, I'll say, you know, if if you think that some person that you know, or the person thinks that they qualify for consideration of a nomination and to be potentially included, then send me an email and I'd be happy to do that.

And if I can add a form somewhere, I think a form could do that too. Collect the information because we don't know everybody. Right.

And good bios too from, you know, Well, I did that for last year, actually. I use an electronic voting system. That's what I used last year. And I was able to put in photographs and bios into some of the people.

I had no idea who they were.

Yeah. And that's the challenge right there, Todd, is that if we get people into the nomination list that nobody's ever heard of before, right, then they're never going to vote for him, right? So, and even, even putting a bio in there may not get them to vote for him.

But if, if everyone in the group— because we have a lot of people that are not, you know, I think they should at least be known. Yeah, but again, some people have done some incredible stuff that are not known, right?

And I think it may be just to get on the nomination for consideration should be a, a perceived kind of accomplishment.

And maybe there needs to be, uh, so many people that actually approve that person to get on the nomination list. Maybe there needs to be like 5, 6, 7, 10 people to review the people that are going to be on the— not any— you know, you hate to do that.

Yeah, it should be probably the board.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. You know, and, and maybe it only takes, you know, a simple, a simple majority, 3 out of 5 or whatever the number is. Okay. You know, I, because, because, you know, if, as long as there's a bio and then we can all do our own due diligence, go out on Google and look their shows up or whatever they've done, and someone may be able to vouch for somebody too. They may say, oh yeah, my God, look what that individual has done. They've done this, this, this, this, and this.

Yeah, I think for any, any new nominees for consideration, I think that should be the, the process.

Yeah, we don't want to exclude anybody. We want to give as much benefit of the doubt as possible. But you, you start showing the list, next thing you know you're going to have 100 people that say, I— how come I'm not on there? So, you know, that.

And, and then, yeah, and then it makes a complicated— it does—

situation for, for the voting block of people that have to sift through, you know, and if there's 200 or 300 names or something, and if there's a public list of who's on and who's been accepted, then the person's going to be pissed if they're not accepted. Well, look at them, they're all biased. And so there's no— there's no perfect— there's no perfect solution.

Yeah, it's the same thing with sports, Todd. There's winners and losers.

There's no— so anyway, we're already over. Uh, quick take, um, Best advice for new creators?

I think my best advice is, is that, you know, start where you can. Yes. Start audio. I would first consider just audio at the beginning, but don't lock your mind out of trying to try and create some, some Shorts that are just created on your mobile phone and, and and explore that and see if that makes sense for you. And, and, but create a, you know, as compelling of an audio experience and an audio program as you can for your genre and your show and create terrific graphics. And, and your cover art is so important now. What's your, what's the title? What's the mission of the show? What are you trying to do? And then in the podcast itself, and we're seeing this trend line also in, in YouTube too, it's not all about these polished productions. There's this movement that's going on around, just like what I asked to do in this episode today, Todd, was not play any intro music, right? Let's just, it's just us, right? Let's just jump in, create the content, and then we get out of here, not with a bunch of—

You mean you don't want any of this? Welcome to—

Yeah, I mean, it's unnecessary, and especially in the age that we're in right now is that The only time that you should do that is if there's some sort of a tease in there, right? About what the listener is going to get by listening or viewing this, right? That is like teasing you. And you're increasingly seeing that in the content that's being produced on YouTube. And I've been doing it in my audio podcast for years. We'll say, well, these are the topics in the show today, and then say, please keep listening. And that's what I'd like to do with this show too, is is to tease the topics that we're going to talk about on the show and be disciplined and stick to it, right? So as— and cover those at least. I mean, we, we can expand beyond that if we want, but—

so my best advice is just please start. Don't listen to any of this advice that's out here. And by the way, um, the Felix said in, uh, the chat, he said Canada. Don't forget about Canada for Hall of Fame. They're included. Canada's already included in the nomination stack. So US and Canada included already for Hall of Fame.

Yeah. And, and, and to be fair, we, we need to consider Mexico too. So, and, and then there's of course there's South America too, which, Todd, you and I both know is huge in podcasting.

Need someone that can speak Portuguese to hand run, run that up. Right, right.

So it's not us, Todd.

All right, so we, we didn't go— we went 70, so we're gonna get out of here.

Um, and well, we had a lot to talk about. It was like 2 weeks.

Well, I, I've got a— you— did you listen to the last show I recorded? I did. Okay, good. Is that why you're back, because I, I didn't dog you in the, in the commentary?

That as much as I was just kind of the posing of the question, should we continue doing this show? Is it relevant to people? And And it also, you know, maybe is a, is a little bit of a reset for us, right? As we think about what we're doing with this show and what the flow of it and how it works and how it conforms into the expectations in the market today.

So the stuff I didn't cover that we didn't cover that you let us know if you want us to cover. There's a lot. With Sound Profitable on their attention and trust. Just go look at their presentation. Tom can explain it better than we can. Um, there's a bunch of stuff, companies I've never heard of, they got IV certified, and some benchmarks that are out there on promo code utilization that I completely disagree with.

Um, but anyway, are you getting pulled into the, the whole kind of confusing conversation around Substack?

No.

That's happening in, in, in the podcasting space right now? No. I've noticed that there's some people that are hosting their podcast on Substack.

Oh, great.

So Substack has, has built a very confusing podcasting tool.

It's been there for a long time.

Why? Yeah, they've been promoting it more here lately, and I've seen some large creators get in there and do something with it, and I'm like, I'm like a little bit, um, confused that they've been promoting it so heavily, but in my perception, it's not really all that great. So it's like, it's a little bit like what happened with, um, SoundCloud, right? Where they, they, they promoted something, they offered it, a lot of people adopted it, but yet it just never improved.

I— it's, it's just— and not to dog them, but there was a site that launched called Proxy Feed that were promoting how you could have all these Podcasting 2.0 features if you moved over there. And use them. And I went on their website, they only have one Podcasting 2.0 feature implemented.

And I'm like, oh, okay, I guess that's all it took to make the claim, Todd.

Yeah, so, uh, um, not that we've done anything like that at all with our service, so, you know, it's, it's okay. Um, I just kind of had to giggle. It was all promoting about Podcasting 2.0, and there was— they got to start somewhere, so, um proxy feed, just go over and look at Podcast Mirror, tell us what else we should do. But they are mapping subdomains. So that's, that's smart. Okay. Todd at blueberry.com, @geeknews on X, and my Mastodon is @geeknews at geeknews.chat.

Rob? All right, I'm on, I'm on X at Rob Greenlee, robgreenlee.com as the primary places to I mean, and then also we're working on a new podcast, Todd. So, so I may shut down some of the other things that I'm— I've been working on because I've got too many podcasts and really put my energy into a new show. So, um, that's kind of, kind of the direction that I'm going. And I've got more things that I want to, you know, announce over the next few weeks in regards to that and some other things that I've been getting involved in. So it's just, um, yeah, take it as it comes. And the Hall of Fame is, is, is building too, and I'm going to be doing some other things with, with that as well. So hopefully it's going to be, going to be a compelling thing this year.

Sounds like a new job. Um, kind of the—

it's more of a kind of like a co-founder type of—

oh, okay.

Type of a relationship.

The, uh, I am doing some additional shows. We just been kind of working on them, and they are in Apple Podcast, but they originate on YouTube, and then they— it's called the Podcast News and Podcast Myth Podcast. So I'm trying to put out one a week, 5 minutes. It's about the length of it. And, uh, so anything we're putting on YouTube right now is also coming in as an audio podcast. So we're staying true to using our own tools, drinking our own Kool-Aid. All right everyone, thanks for being here. We, you know, we're trying to get to an hour and a half. We're an hour 16, so let's get out of here. Uh, see, let's see everybody. Thanks, we'll see you next time.