Advise for your career in 2025 (with Robin Daniels)

Is life too short for the job you have? Is there no room to grow? And how do you even make the decision to leave?

It was hard to leave because it was my first CMO job and I. And I was like very involved with the VC community and I kept thinking, like, what will it say about me if I. If I leave this job? Yeah, you know, I can't hang or I'm not good enough for so on. I just like ego. That's why it took me like six months to kind of get to a resolution because then I flipped it around and said, well, what does it say about me if I stay?

2024 is almost over. And maybe you're reflecting over your career. Well, you're not alone. We discussed career development with Robin Daniels, along with some classic lies such as titles don't matter.

I'm like, bullshit. Of course it matters. It matters to your own self esteem. It matters to how you're viewed in the company, matters to how you're viewed in the industry, what you can command when you go out and negotiate another deal or whatever it is. Of course it matter. But to say that is the number one thing. I also think that probably means that you have an overinflated system. Even when I was chasing the CMO title, it wasn't the number one thing.

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I think this also serves him right. We had Kyle Coleman on and he was like, it's better with him not in the shot. And I was like. And I just sat down. I was like, I didn't get it. I didn't get what was happening. Do you get what's happening now, Tony?

Oh, yeah, 100%.

The thing is, so we have this. We have this journalist in Denmark called Steinmetz. He reports from the White House. And there was a shot of him reporting live during summertime. And he's always like dressed up, suit, tie, shirt, the whole spiel. Right.

We can see what.

Basically you saw the shot of him and then he had flip flops and, and the shorts on underneath, which did make the cut. I'm wearing, I'm no joke, I'm wearing My hunter like the pants I wear when I go hunting. And then I'm happy.

You wear anything, Mikkel.

Yeah.

You know that. Wow.

You don't want to know what I'm wearing. As he likes to say, professional up top, casual down below.

We got to trust the AI with the decision making here right now.

You know, this, this show just got raided off.

I know, I know. Seriously got very hot. There's a lot of people out there going, woo.

It's also truly. It's also truly great that you took us there, Robin, because we're going to talk a bit about career development. Oh, yeah, that's on people's mind today. So there's some do's and don'ts. We'll leave this one open for interpretation as to, you know, what should you do, what should.

How do you, how do you think I got to where I am today? I'm just, you know, I'm just saying.

Oh, man. And we were, we were worried doing this offline and not in person was not going to work. But clearly there are more jokes like.

This in the next hour. I can feel this.

Right? Yeah.

So we have Robin Daniels back with us on the show. Robin, thanks so much for joining us. You obviously talk a lot about leadership, career development. This is one of those things that are really close to your heart. We felt like this was the perfect time to get you back on the show to, uh, this episode is going to air, you know, in that sweet spot between Christmas and New Year's Eve where people might reflect a little bit over the year to come. What, where are they going to go? How are they going to grow? What's, what's going to happen for them professionally? Sure. So really happy to have you with us here to kind of help us have that conversation. And I hope we've prepped you enough because we kind of said, hey, you probably have some tips. You probably have. You've talked with so many people. So like, what's your, the most important, the best advice right now? Can we start with like the best?

I think before we do that, do we actually, do we actually agree that kind of the time between Christmas and New Year's is where everyone is kind of reflecting and thinking like, should I, should I quit my job? Do we actually all believe that? Because I believe it actually. Is everyone else also thinking like this?

I think actually, I don't know if that's true. I think it might happen more. The long summer vacations when you're really out there.

Yes.

On the beach, in the mountains. The weather tonight, you're like, God, do I really want to go back to work? Right. You know, because here, my here at the winter, it's like a lot of time with family and that can be too much for some people. Like I can't wait to get back to work, you know, after spending all this time this concentrate with this many people. So I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if I buy your thesis.

No, I mean, this is an excellent point. You know, I mean when we shut down growblocks, a lot of people were like, oh, why did you do it? And then we talked about the rev ops thing and. But really it was just, I just came back from the summer break. I was like, I'm done with this now. You know, this is, this is over.

I don't want to, I don't want.

To keep doing this anymore.

But okay, so. So maybe summer's number one, maybe winter is number two, you know, but it's just like, you know, families are dicey. I love like family, like my family, but also getting too much of them sometimes. It's like, okay, that's why work is a nice reprieve from that. But yeah, I think, I think it is probably true, honestly, that a lot of people do reflect. I mean, I think I've done that when I think back on my, my life and career. But just to start us off, I mean, when I first, when I first moved to California in 2000, as I think, you know, it's well documented, we've talked about it when I was in the last podcast about that one way ticket from Copenhagen to California and the first kind of year was a bust, you know, job failure, job failure and so on. And then I, the second year in 2001, I got a job at a big company called Veritas and they were doing quite well. So even in that dark time when everybody was kind of laying off or doing, going bankrupt and nobody's getting funding and so on, I got a job at this company and they were growing like 20, 25 year over year. So quite, quite good at that time. And it was a little bit bigger company, a couple thousand people, and I ended up the first person. I ended up being marketing, a product marketing manager and ended up working for the cmo or in that, in that team of course. And I ended up marrying the executive assistant to the cmo because even back then I was very motivated. Like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get to the top and it's works well so far, you know, it worked and I'm going to continue with that. So my tip to anybody who's listening is like, go figure out how to do that in your life and you'll make it. No, I'm kidding. But actually, you know, it's, it's a. I, I think about my, my life and a lot of it's come down to. Obviously there's a couple of things to reflect on. Honestly, when I was that early, I think it changes depending on who the stage in life you're at. At that stage when I was 21, right, and I moved to the U.S. and I, I really didn't have much skills or experience or anything like that. The two things that were completely in my control that I think if you're just starting out your career that you should absolutely lean into in the new year, the energy you show up with and the initiative that you take. So what does that mean? I think these are two things that you can. A lot of things you can't control. You can't always control the jobs you get assigned, tasks that you work on and so on, because you're probably at the kind of starting point of the career ladder, right? So you're working for somebody who's working for somebody and so, and so on. But you can't control those two things. And what do I mean? So energy is like the way you show up every day. Is it a net positive for everybody around you? Are you showing up with energy, passion, conviction, excitement, enthusiasm? That goes a long way. And it's, it's doing that consistently, you know, in a way that lifts people up around you. I mean, people always end up noticing those people want to work with those people. And it might sound like I'm biasing towards maybe extroverts, but I don't think it has anything to do with that. I've seen many introverts who can be just as positive as. And in a very different way, of course. But it doesn't change the fact that the way you show up every day really gets noticed, right? And then it starts compounding over time if you do that consistently, day after day, week after week, month after month, and so on. So I think that's a beautiful thing. And then the second thing is initiative. And what does that mean? It means finding the things that your boss maybe doesn't have time to work on or haven't even thought of and figuring out great solutions to solving those issues in a way that's again, net positive for both the person you work for, maybe also the team or maybe even the company. Finding these things that will set you apart from kind of everybody else and put you on a path. I mean, these two alone are not enough for a promotion, but they'll certainly set you apart. And I always kind of advise people who are just starting out. I just actually started mentoring somebody in the US we had our first meeting a couple of weeks ago and I, and I gave her this advice. I said, these are two things. She's about to graduate. And she had questions, which I'm part of this mentorship program. Like, these two things you can't control doesn't mean it's easy because finding like, things to take initiative on. But there's always things. Sometimes they're tiny things like just shit that nobody wants to focus on because they're just like, mundane and nobody's like, ah, just put it in a corner somewhere. But sometimes they're big kind of existential things, right? And if you can find kind of a mix of those things, it'll really, really set you apart.

I think it's also like if you're, if you're the person who brings that energy and that positive attitude to the office every day, people are going to start seeking you out. They will want to work with you, right? Because you have, they know, okay, this is going to be easy. Even if it fails, at least we'll probably have fun, right? So I think that's a really good insight. And at least me personally, one of the things I worked with was this, this approach of saying, well, I'm going to start, if I'm starting a new job, I'm going to start it as I mean to go on. So, you know, not just saying, well, eventually I'll push the, the pedal to the metal, right? But you got to bring those, you know, those elements from day one, basically.

Right.

So I know, Tony, you all probably also wanted to, to jump.

No, what I like about that part of the advice, it's, it's fully in your control. You know, it could be, it could be that, I don't know, there's a skill gap or some experience thing that you haven't figured out and, and, and it's difficult for you to catch up on that. But the way you show up and kind of the initiative you show is like, it's completely in your control. And there's also for your, for yourself, there's not really much room for like an excuse like, ah, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't show up with Energy.

Like, of course you could. Of course you could. It's a great way of. You're absolutely right. It's the two things you can 100% control. It's simple. It doesn't mean it's easy. If it was easy, kind of everyone would do it, of course. So we. So we know that. So it's simple, not necessarily easy. But it also holds yourself accountable because you can control those things 100%. Right? Do you show up in a way, like, where there's, like, you go above and beyond and you work your ass off, right? When I was just starting out my career, I'm sure it's probably YouTube. You've had great stuff happen in your lives and careers, too. All you have is that, right? You don't really have anything else besides those two things. And then somebody. And then, and then I'm lucky enough that along the way, because I showed up with those two things, people started seeing things in me and started taking chances on me and believing, giving me more responsibility, cool projects. Maybe you should become a leader, blah, blah, blah, all these things, right? But it's only because I really had those two things. Of course, that's changed over time, as you know, I've gotten more senior and a leader of people and so on.

No, but the thing is also as a, as you know, when you then become a leader and then you have those people working for you and you see the difference between those two, it's also, well, you know, where do you gravitate towards, right? Where do you, as a leader, kind of want to spend more time with, you know, with whom and so forth. Right. And there's just also very human aspect to it, I think, which is actually also catering to the people around you that can give you those opportunities. Right. And I sometimes feel like, especially people kind of early in their careers, they feel it's all about the skill and the hard skills and, you know, maybe there's a soft skill, but it's also about the human element of people wanting to spend time with you. Like, you know, it's, hey, you know, maybe there's. Maybe there's a trip that your boss needs to go on, right? And then the boss, like, I kind of don't want to go alone. You know, whom should I take?

Right?

I mean, we all had those things happening to us, right? And it's a good thing when, when. Then he or she brings you, right? I mean, you spend, you know, more quality time. You kind of get to know each other a bit better. And. And this will not come from you being the most excellent in this one specific area. Right. There's really a human aspect to it as well.

I always think of this this way. It's simple. I just kind of saying catchphrase, I don't know what you call it. But the soft skills, the hard skills will get you in the door, but it's the soft skills that will get you ahead. Yeah, mostly true because a lot of times it's like based on your resume and kind of how you show up. So that's of course, a mix of hard skills and soft skills. But the hard skills will mostly get to like, people scan a resume and look at that and then. But it's the soft skills that will get you ahead. So a couple of thoughts on that. So if you, if you think about this whole idea of career and looking forward and all that stuff, there's a couple of tips I would give to people. Number one is have clarity on what it is that you want to. What matters to you. You know, that I've done that a lot of times in my life where I list out all the things that I can kind of evaluate opportunities on. And there's probably like, honestly, 15 to 20 things. Mission purpose, company size, title, pay commute, boss. There's a whole list. I have this whole list of things. Right, but you have. As part of that, you have to decide what matters more. When I was early in my career, for example, I set myself the goal that I wanted to be ahead of marketing by the time I was 35, know, I led some smaller teams, you know, box. I was the head of enterprise marketing, but I didn't need all of marketing.

Right.

I was working for the, for the head of marketing there. So I wanted that. And I, I ended up. So I was very ambitious at that point. And now, you know, of course, I'm a little older and so on. So that whole idea of title and so on honestly doesn't matter to me. But I also hate when people say, oh, title doesn't matter. Okay, maybe it's not the most important thing, but it matters. And it matters certain points in your life and career and so on. Right. But. But you have to have clarity on, like, what matters to you most. And sometimes it's pay, sometimes it's the commute, sometimes it's the team. You just want to be part of a team that's kicking ass where you can learn from lots of different things. But I think it starts with that.

So I think maybe just jump in here. There's an interesting question. For us to maybe dive into.

On.

On specifically titles. Right. So there's some that might have had a certain level and then do this exercise of figuring out, well, I really want to do this. This is more important to me. But then all of a sudden the title is not necessarily the same. How do you. How do you navigate that conversation? Right. I think that is. That is also an interesting one for us to tackle.

I deal with this all the time. It's super tough because. Because at some point you have to again, value, evaluate what you value and also set your ego aside a little bit. Right. And that's, of course, a tough thing for most of us. For example, so after I left Box, I was the head of enterprise marketing, and then I went to a tiny company or like eight people at the time, and I was the CMO that was kind of the first business hire. We ended up getting funding, we grew it to over 100 people, and over 10 million in AR got acquired. But then I went from there to LinkedIn. And at LinkedIn, I was the head of product marketing. So it's much smaller, but I was leading product marketing for like a $4 billion product line. You know, I had a team of 50, so my team was bigger, the revenue was way bigger, but my title was smaller. So it's like one of those things you have to evaluate. So it's really hard to compare apples to apples. Like, unless you go, of course, from, like, am I going to be the CMO at Google or the CMO at Apple? Maybe then you can compare. Right? But yeah, most of us that's not the case. Right. You know, it's like, so you have to evaluate it in. In a. In a kind of a sober light. You have to have an honest conversation with yourself about where you really are. Could I have been CMO at LinkedIn at that time? I mean, I don't. I didn't have the experience at that scale. Right. The company at that point was probably 7 billion in revenue. The team was 800 people or something. You know, it's like, so. So probably not. And then I became afterwards, you know, cmo. So after doing that, then I became CMO at rework again. And so. So your career journey is kind of like a series of journeys. For me, at that point, it was more important about the learning and the mission, you know, then because I started changing from being ambitious around the title to much more ambitious around the mission, the people, the impact I can have, and so on, you know.

But also, I think it's important to take Take some of those feelings out of the equation. I mean, I've done this myself in the latest job I had. This was not a lateral move, but it was very intentional. And I've been super happy with that decision I took as an individual. And it's. It's definitely fueled me a lot versus what the alternatives were. So sorry, Tony.

No, I do think though, that there's a bit of a difference between having. Having gotten the C level title at some point, because I think a lot of people want to get to this, right? So there's.

Yes.

I don't know you that well, Robin, but I feel like if you have never gotten the C level title, you probably would have. Like, that's still on my checklist, right. I still want to get this thing for sure, I think. And once you get it, you kind of. Once you're CEO, cmo, CEO, whatever. I think then people relax around this whole thing and then they're like, hey, you know what? Title's not that super important. And I totally get it, but everyone around you is like, no, no, it's really important to me. Right? So I think there's. There's also a little bit of a perspective there to, to balance this out sometimes.

Well, that's why I said I hate when people say, I've heard this a few times when I've like been chasing that. Oh, don't worry. Titles doesn't matter. It matters what you do and the impact. I'm like, course it matters. It matters to your own self esteem. It matters to how you're viewed in the company, matters to how you're viewed in the industry, what you can command when you go out and negotiate another deal or whatever it is. Of course it matters. But to say that is the number one thing. I also think that probably means that you have an overinflated sense. Even when I was chasing the CMO title, it wasn't the number one thing. It wasn't even probably the top three thing, but it was important, right? It was like I wanted to get there at some point. And the reason I wanted to get there was tied to the other things in that list because I always felt that I could see failure. And when I started getting management responsibilities and started leading people that I was pretty good at it. And I'm like, and I want to have as much impact. And of course, the more C level you get, the more. The bigger in the. In the company and role, you can impact more people. To me, it's like, can I impact as many people and lift Them up around me. And the more senior you are, you can do that at a higher scale. Right, okay. So that was the first thing. That kind of.

That was the first thing, yeah.

Okay. The second thing is, as we go into the holidays and maybe you're coming out of the holidays. I think the other thing is, at the end of each week, I always kind of measure myself on a scale of 1 to 10. My happiness, my satisfaction, and it's very rare to get a 10, so let's just get that out of the way. I think if you can consistently be in a place of like 7 to 9, I think you're in a fairly good spot. It means that you have a lot of highs, maybe a few lows in the week, but a lot of highs, and you're making a difference. If you're like in the 6 to 4 to 6 range, I think it's worth monitoring. It's not sustainable to stay in that range very long, but we all have them. I've had some weeks, you know, when I've had to let people go or some projects didn't work or whatever it is a customer's pissed off, kind of like shitty weeks and so on. As long as you can pull yourself out and you come back on a more higher trade, I think that's fine. And if you're in a kind of one to three range, I think every now and then, if something of course terrible happens in your life and so on, that happens, you know. But if you're there consistently week over week, get the out. Honestly, like, life is too short. I always say that to people, life is too short to be in a job that's completely miserable. And I get. Sometimes you have to just do it because you need to get paid and support your family and so on. Right. For those of us who have the luxury, maybe we can choose a little bit more. I get it. But. But if you have the choice, get out. Life is too, way too short to be in a job, that this destroys your soul every single day. Right. But so. Because if the Friday night test is actually really powerful, it's very simple. Just kind of. It's like you don't say it out loud, you just kind of calibrate in your head, look yourself in the mirror. And I'm like, when. Like when I think about the last week, did I feel like I made a difference? Did I have fun doing it? Was I laughing? You know, like Barometa I use oftentimes, like, am I laughing a little bit every day with the team that I'm working with, you know, small. Do you see small things if they add up to something. And I would say I'm consistently in a between 7 and 9, you know, but it's just like an easy, easy thing to do and it guides you towards your future roadmap. If you're getting stuck in that four to six range, it's where you, that's a hard one because it's not horrible, but it's not great either. And I just like, I, I'm very much of the philosophy, life is short, go do something you love. Right. You know, you, you're not doing anybody any favors in your job. This result, the world is not much better off your family. Even though you think, oh, it's not affecting my home life. And so of course, course if you come home, you're not excited by your work, which takes up so much of your life, I can guarantee it's probably going to affect your relationship with your kids or your, your partner or whatever it is.

So what would be your advice to folks that don't consistently land into the 7 to 9 range? Is, is it just pack your things and leave or is it, you know, should you bring it up with your boss? Kind of how should you deal with. Or is, is it just an internal thing for you that you need to work on?

Well, well, so, so it's definitely don't just up and leave. I think, I think that's traditionally a bad strategy. Again, unless it's like hurting your soul if you're like one or two, just weird, like get the out. Right. But no, you should definitely do not just up and leave, but you should have a, you should do some introspection, some self reflection about why and figure out why it is. Is it because I'm in a toxic environment? Am I not inspired by the work I'm doing? Am I learning anything new? Do I, do I not believe in the mission of the company? Could be so many things it's hard to like pinpoint, right? You put. Requires you to have a little bit of like. So I'll give you an example. When I left Box, I went to Vera to cyber security company where I became the CMO for the first time. And I was there for like two and a half years. So, you know, and so on. I really like the team, I like the work I was doing. But I just, the last six months I kept waking up. I was just not excited by the mission we're on. I'm like, I didn't love cyber security. God bless the people who do it because we need it. But it was just not for me. I would go to these conferences and they were just so negative and about doom and gloom, about cyber warfare and hacking. And I'm just like, you know me, like I'm very positive and optimistic. I'm just like, it just lets that feel like my crowd. And I was like, I have a very hard time faking it if I'm not really excited by it. I need to be excited by the mission I'm on, like and so on. So. So for that one specifically it was about I didn't believe in the mission. There's been other times where I've left because the environment was toxic and it was like not healthy and so on. But that one specifically was just about it. So I guess my point is you need to have like an honest self reflection about what it is, right. Sometimes it's very obvious. And it became obvious over time because I kept waking up with this feeling like I'm just not excited to go to work. And as I started doing some deep reflection and self work, I'm like, I like the team, you know, I kind of like my job. I like that I've run all of marketing and I get to kind of call the shots there and so on. But I just wasn't excited by it. I'm like, why is this? Why am I feeling so low on energy all the time? And my wife could tell of course as well. Right. But it was hard because it was hard to leave because it was my first CMO job and I, and I was like very involved with the VC community and I kept thinking like, what will it say about me if I, if I leave this job? You know, I can't hang or I'm not good enough for so long. So I had this like ego. That's why it took me like six months to kind of get to a resolution because then I flipped it around and said, well, what does it say about me if I stay that I'm in a job that I don't love and I'm not doing the best work of my life. And maybe they feel it too, but nobody would ever say it right? And so I'm not doing them any. I'm not really doing anybody any favors. I'm not doing myself any favors or anybody else by doing something I don't love. That's how I feel about it. So that kind of, it's really about doing those detox with yourself and figuring it out.

Do you. And maybe this is my last follow up question on this, but do you think if someone is having kind of those thoughts but basically arrives at the end at, oh, I'm not getting paid enough, do you think this is a BS reason or do you think it's a real reason that might actually change your happiness level once you maybe get paid more?

Well, I, I honestly, I think this is, I don't want to sound like, like it's, it's, it's harsh, but I don't think many people think they're paid enough usually. So it always comes up in most conversations and so, and sometimes it's true, but I think a lot of times it has to be taken in a context of so many other things. Right. If you're, if you're like overworked and underpaid. Yeah, that's not sustainable. I think that's not fair, probably in many ways. But, but I also think, I mean, if there's like two things I always know comes up in any like employee survey, anybody else, whether that was WeWork or LinkedIn or Salesforce, like people feel like they're overworked and underpaid. That's usually like the two things. It's like. Yeah, but compared to like if you're working Starbucks or you're working and you're probably making way more money. So everything is kind of relative, you know, but it's a hard one to say. I mean, there probably are cases, I don't want to like dismiss it completely. You know, it depends on. But then if you really truly feel like you're underpaid and again, that's what's hurting you. Like again, when you're doing that weekly check in and your self reflection, then maybe you should leave.

Yeah.

If that, if that's something where you can, if it's a way where you can sustain yourself, maybe it's more your ego, but if it's a way where you can actually support your family and your lifestyle, then maybe go somewhere else.

Honestly. Also, when I've had that conversation with folks, I also flipped it around and said, well, you kind of took the offer to join here at a certain level. Why, why, why was it not an issue when we spoke then?

Right.

And I think that just changes the dynamic quite often. Speaking of salary, by the way, there's going to be probably a few new jobs appearing when we on the other side of, of New Year's Eve. Right. New budgets unlocked. And then on the other hand, SaaS is notorious, at least startups are notorious for having low tenure.

Yes.

How should people think about Should I stay or should I go? When do we know it's actually time? I mean, we've kind of talked a bit about some of it, but maybe there are some folks out there who are generally happy at work, but it's also a good offer. And then it's really difficult, you know what I mean? Like, when do you know when it's time to move?

Well, it starts even before. I mean, I mean, again, if we're honest about the fact that you're even taking a meeting with someone probably says there's something you're not quite happy with, right? So let's be honest about that. But let's say you get as far as you get an offer, right? And if the offer is like, killer, I mean, any good manager would say to their employee, you'd be stupid not to take it, right? You know, like, I mean, it's like, we're all humans and we all want the best for each other. Yes, there are some assholes out there, but in general, I would say if you want the best for your people, I always, like, I hope all my people that work for me become mega successful. And I know some tongue they believe, right? At LinkedIn, we had this concept of next play, and I loved it. It was always that when people left, but however long they were with us, we would celebrate them. We would never, like, try to, like, shame them or anything like that, which happens sometimes, right? But it was always, like, celebrate them because they're moving on to something that they're more, maybe more happy about that's paying them better. Maybe it's a bigger job, whatever it is. And so if somebody comes to me and I. And. And you can see, okay, the offer is so good, I was like, you'd be stupid not to take. I'm like, somebody's getting 50% more, which happens sometimes. Like, go, take it. You know, you'd be silly because I can't match that. Right, of course. But if it's. Somebody comes and says, hey, I'm getting a matching offer at a different job, then it's probably because they're unhappy maybe with how I'm leading them or their role in the team or something. So it really depends. Right, on that stuff.

I think this topic is super interesting as a. From a manager perspective. If someone comes with an offer, matching or 50% above or whatever, what's actually your general opinion? Or do you have, like a rule of thumb, like, when should you try and retain that employee, Right? Because sometimes this comes and, you know, recording this in Denmark, Denmark is very like Aarian, right? Very fair. And you know, you know, the person was paid fairly already compared to the peers and so forth. And now there's a different offers on the table. Paying that person more might kind of kick off a whole chain reaction of whom else you need to now pay more. Right, but what's your, what's your view on that actually kind of how, you know, should a manager, if it's worth it, should they engage and try and kind of save that, save the employee? Or is it like, you know what this is, this is going to cause more pain anyway, so let's just leave it go.

I'll be honest, it happens to me a lot because I'm in an industry that's fast moving, right. And there's always new hot startups and so on. It's happened to me at Sensei, it's happened to me at many other companies as well. And I've kind of changed my philosophy a little bit over the years. I would say that the way I think of it now is I'm on your side, I'm human first. Like if this is really what you want to do, I'll support you all the way. That's usually kind of what I say. But then I of course try to dig deeper into, understand why it is, right? And if it's because, for example, I had one, I won't say where, where it was, but who just felt like I wasn't paying enough attention and gave them enough mentoring. I was like, I can, that's something I can fix, right. You know, and so on. It depends on like if what they're seeking and kind of what, what it is that they feel like they need, they're not getting. But again, I like it's just pure pay and that there's, they're happy here but the pay is higher. Then I'm like, oh, like just go for it, right? I mean, again, depends on if it's like a being offered a role in a rocket ship where your equity is going to be worth off. Maybe if you get equity, right, and pay and so on. I mean I've tried but I've also many times saved people honestly from leaving. But it comes down to then having that much more deep conversation because they can see that I care. A lot of people just want to know that you care. A lot of people don't feel seen enough or heard enough or invested enough. I mean again, that number I'm obsessed with 70 of people want to quit their jobs. It's just kind of mind Blowing it's kind of what keeps me up. And not because that's. I want to change that in the world. But if you dig deep into why that is, it's because most people feel like they're stuck. There's nobody cares for them, nobody always investing. They're not learning new skills that's going to help them in the future. So if I as a manager can give them that nudge or push them in that direction, teach them those right things, if I can do that, great. And if I'm not the right person, then maybe they go somewhere else. But I never try to shame anybody to stay. I think it's just a lose. I mean, the world is small and karma is real. So try to do what's best for the person.

So what about moving upwards in the organization? This is also something that kept returning to me when I was a leader. Folks kind of wanted to get to the, let's say, the next stage of their career. And this is also something a lot of folks will definitely reflect over, you know, New Year's resolutions wise. How do you, how do you think about that dimension?

Basically, this is the perfect. The question. I've gotten the most by far, right? And I've had it myself to two leaders. But it's by far the question I get the most. How do I get to the next level? How do I get promoted? And so I have a, I have a formula now and I've used that for a couple of years. And the formula is this. There's three things you have to do and it's not one of them, it's not two of them. You have to do all three. Number one is you have to consistently crush your goals. Not just a quarter, because everyone can have a good quarter. And then the next quarter may be. But you have to consistently crush your goals quarter after quarter after quarter. But what does that mean? How do you get there? It's very simple. You have to have clarity around what your goals are. It's very hard to achieve the things that you want to achieve if you don't know what you're chasing in the first place. So have a conversation with your manager, like, how am I being measured? What do you want me to achieve? Because then you can either achieve it or hopefully overachieve it, right? Crush those goals. So that's number one. And because nobody gets, gets rewarded after just a quarter, and I see sometimes very young people going, hey, I had a great quarter, I should get promoted. I'm like, that's not quite how it works. Right. You got to show that excellence quarter. So that's number one. Number two is that you have to start acting as if you're at the next level. So you've been a manager, I'm sure, Mikkel. And if you wanted to get to become a director and then from director to a vice president or something, start acting as if you're already at that level. Like, and meaning that you're taking on more responsibility, you're modeling your behaviors, maybe you get involved in more projects, you are taking more initiatives, you're. You're coaching across departmental lines, you're helping across departmental lines. Like, what does a VP do that a director is not doing, maybe, or manager's not doing? You start. You can start seeing that the thing it requires, though. So just like the first one requires clarity, the second one requires that you have role models that you can model yourself after. Hopefully you have that at work. But if not, maybe you find someone in your life where you can see about this person has gone to the next level. Let me learn from it. Reach out to them, see if they can be a mentor. That's how I end up mentoring quite a few people. People reach out to me on LinkedIn. They'll say, hey, you had a great career. I'd love to get to the next level. I don't take on a lot of them because I don't have that much time, but. But I have a few because of their story and where I can see, I can kind of lean in. But you have to have role models. So start acting as if you're the next level without even a title. That's really a great sign of somebody who's ready to get promoted. And that's what we all notice as leaders. Like, wow, that person's kind of stepping up. And then the third thing, which is maybe the hardest thing that people forget a lot, which is the soft skills. And I say you have to have a chorus of support. You have to have a group of support around you. Like, oh, Mikkel. The way he shows up every day is such a great net positive energy and conviction and passion. The team loves working with him. He's helpful, he's joyful, he collaborates well, he communicates well and so on. Right. Tony, on the other hand, I don't know, you know, he's really good at what he does, but nailed it. But, you know, but, but, but, but the way he shows up, you know, he's like a little difficult and so on. So I can always tell, like, what people think about and so my point is, it's not one thing. And people often mistake that. They're like, hey, I crushed my goals. I'm like, yeah, but I hear lots of things about you being difficult to work with. I'm like, do you think that's success or. Yeah, you're crushing your goals, but you're not really going beyond what's defined of you because that's again, that's the thing. So, so it's really doing all of those three things. Right? And so what does that require? That at the end of the day is that level of self reflection and removing your ego a little bit from it. And say, like, how am I actually doing on those three things? If you're really, truly honest with yourself, if you had to give yourself, let's say, a 1 to 10 ranking on each of those three dimensions, the way you're crushing your goals, the way that you're acting as if you're at the next level, and the way that you're showing up for everybody else, that the thing we talked about at the beginning, passion, energy, initiative and so on. How would you rank yourself on all those? And yeah, but, but being honest about it allows you to course correct and say, okay, I can go fix this in the next six months or whatever it is. Yeah.

So the, the way.

Sorry, Tony, I didn't mean to call you out. I know you're a delight to work with.

No, no, no.

I think you were actually on point. I didn't take any offense because you were on point. No, but my, my thinking was actually. So when I had those conversations, I sometimes kind of said, hey, make it easy for me to promote you. Right. Kind of. Because it's almost. Because the three things you're saying, there's like, if you, if you go into, you know, have a conversation, maybe get a manager to a director, what's going to happen is you need to also, as a vp, as a C level, you need to coordinate with your peers, like, is this okay that I'm doing this right? And then they're going to be like, well, you know, I think he missed last quarter and like, you know, he's kind of a dick. And, you know, you don't want to have that pushback. Right. And it's, it's, you know, I think you, you kind of put it really in the, in the formula really nicely and make it also from the person's perspective, which, you know, but at the end of the day, it's kind of the same thing, right? Kind of, hey, make it easy for me to promote you. And those are the three things that, that just need to be there.

I mean, I don't know how it's been for, for you too. But all my promotion decisions are never just me. We usually sit a group of people talking about, let's talk about Susan versus Joe. Oh, Susan's great and blah blah, blah, here's all the stuff he achieved and so on. And then, oh, Joe, I can always tell which way the wind is blown. But it's never just. I'm not a dictator. I'm not just. I can't just make that call because it's usually a group decision. Right. People who are sitting there. I'm sure it's the same for you. So that's why that last one is so hard. People often get kind of pissed off. I've seen that quite happen a few times when it's like, ah, but I did all the work. I did everything you're asking me, I'm like, yeah, that's only part of the work. If you just, if you think that's the only part of the job, you're mistaken. That the other part of the job is the way you show up for people every single day.

I think also to maybe just throw a curveball at the two of you. Sometimes as a leader in this scenario, you also just don't have room. Yeah, you don't have room for that next. I don't know, head off or whatever.

That's true.

And I think this is also important for us to talk about. For those folks who are eyeing that, that's the next step they want to take. How should they think about this going into the new year?

That's actually a really good one. That's one of the more difficult cases to deal with. When people really feel like they're ready and you can kind of see that they are, but you don't have the room in your team, then it becomes an honest conversation with that person around. Is there more for you to learn here and more for you to achieve? Can we move you maybe to take on some other stuff within the company that can maybe get you there? Because this role that you have right now, I just not scope for you to be a vp. You know, you're, you're, let's say you're director of, of pr. We don't, we're too small to have a VP of pr. So what else can you take on? Maybe you become VP of Brand and pr. Right. Maybe it's a bigger role. Right. What else can you take on? That can get you there. But this role is too small. And if they don't want that or they feel like they're so done with it or specialized, then maybe it's time for them to move on. That's. That's what I coach people. Because I'm like, I can't. Then you'll just end up being miserable. Because if that's what you're chasing, right. But it becomes a lot of like, where can we. Where can we get you? What can we give you? You know, if they're superstar, right. I always think of it this way. I have this philosophy. I tell this to my team because I worked in companies that are going through a lot of change. I mean, Sensei is going through a lot of change. A lot of my companies have gone through these, these hyper changes and transformations. And I say this. My job as a leader is to fight for you relentlessly. What I mean is that if you show up every day with that passion, energy and conviction and you do a good job, I will do whatever I can to ensure that you enjoy what you do and that you're successful. That I give you the knowledge and the resource to be successful every single. And I will fight for you relentlessly for that. That's my job and responsibility, my commitment to you as a leader. But I can't promise you, and what I can't commit to is that your job will always stay the same, your role will always stay the same, the team will always stay the same because we're a company in change. Because I can tell so oftentimes people get pressed when I get moved to this team or suddenly I get a new boss and so on. It happens a lot. But I'm like, I can't promise you that because we're not in a static environment. Our environment is going to change. Like the way the company is today versus how. How it's going to be a year from now. It's probably going to be wildly different. And so if you're open to the change and growth and possibility that comes with that, this is a perfect place for you. Because those are the kind of companies I choose. Right. But. But if you don't like that and it creates you a lot of heartache and uncertainty and frustration, then maybe this is not the right place for you. Because I can't promise you that, that that will happen. But I will promise you that will fight for you relentlessly. If, if you do a good job and you show up in a way that's positive for everybody else.

Oh, I I think we covered a lot of ground as usual actually, and also had a fun conversation. I at least hope that this is going to help a lot of folks figure out what is the next step, what is the right decision for them. Thanks so much for sharing a couple of tools with our listeners, Robin and joining us on the revenue formula.

Thanks guys. I love chatting with you.

Have a good one. And everyone else hit subscribe and so forth. Thanks so much for listening.

Bye bye. Peace. Sa.