HR Transformation

Hello and welcome to Leading Digital Transformation with Rob Llewellyn and the Digital Transformation People. In this podcast series, Rob interviews experienced practitioners, authors and thought leaders whose stories and experiences provide valuable insights for digital transformation success.

Hi and welcome back. I'm joined today by Matt Adlan. Matt's an expert in talent acquisition strategy and he's also the host of the REC Recruiting Future podcast, which is one of the world's most listened to podcasts on recruiting innovation. And in every episode, Matt interviews thought leaders and practitioners influencing and changing an industry. He's also in the process of writing a book and that scheduled to be out in April 2020. And we'll ask Matt about that in just a moment. So without further ado, let's jump into the interview with Matt. Matt, welcome.

Hi, Rob. A pleasure to be on the podcast.

Great to have you. Matt, as I just mentioned in the introduction, you're writing a book called Digital Talent and It's out in April 2020. I understand. Tell us why you decided to write a book, because it's a pretty big undertaking and what the nature of the book is.

Absolutely. So it's actually my second book. I write my books in collaboration with a very good friend of mine, Mervyn Dinon, who's an HR strategy consultant. And the reason that we're writing this book is, you know, we've been fascinated to see all the content that's out there about digital transformation. Obviously something important to, you know, pretty much every company. Lots and lots of things written about everything from technology to structure to, you know, all that kind of stuff, but not much written about the actual people side of digital transformation. You know, the type of people that you might need in your business, how you get them, how you manage, how you manage all that change. So we sort of embarked on writing this book to really sort of fill what we see as a gap in the market in that, you know, lots of talk about digital transformation, not much talk about talent for digital transformation.

Okay, and let's kind of move on to talent a little bit. You've been in the recruitment business for a long time, around two decades. What have you learned about demand for skills, skills and talent, specifically in relation to digital transformation? I mean, is it different from times in the past, perhaps, where circumstances have increased demand for specific skills?

Yeah, it's really interesting and it's something that I've kind of followed through my 20 years of recruitment sort of very, very closely, either working with companies who are looking for, you know, various evolving types of digital talent, or indeed the sort of the first half of my career in this industry, I was working for various recruitment marketing agencies and I was actually building their digital. So I was very much kind of on the search for digital talent and seeing how required skills evolved and all that sort of stuff. I think that the period we're going through now is very different. I think in the past. One of the. Without giving too much of our book away, one of the parallels that we sort of draw very early in the book is looking at what happened round the millennium bug when there was a massive spike in demand for a particular sort of technical skills. And that spike sort of continued as the, you know, as we went into the new century with the sort of E commerce revolution and all those sort of things I think is different this time. You know, back then, the types of talent and the types of skills that were needed were quite clearly defined. And at the same time, certainly with the millennium bug, there was a sort of a time limit to it that focused people's minds. I think with digital transformation now, it's all about sort of continuous evolution and many companies still don't perhaps understand the type of talent that they need. As soon as they've got to grip with it that the types of the skills and the types of talent change. And it's kind of. It's very evolving and very unstructured and very undefined. And I think that makes it a real challenge. The other aspect of it is companies really need two different sets of people. And this is something that a couple of my clients have talked to me about. You know, they need people who are going to be able to manage the change of transformation, to help them take an old business model and an old structure into the kind of the new world that we're living in. But are those people who drive that change then the right people to actually, actually take the business on from there? So, you know, one client in particular I'm working with is actually almost having to sort of reinvent their workforce twice to bring people in to change the business and then bring people in who can take the business forward from there. So I think it's very different and I think it's a very, very challenging time for employers when it comes to talent.

Matt, you and I, we both host podcasts and we both speak to a lot of different experts on a regular basis and also going in and out of different organizations. So there are a lot of different perspect out there on digital transformation. How is digital transformation viewed from the perspective of HR professionals? And what role do you think they should be playing to achieve it.

Well, to answer the second part of that question first, they should be playing a much bigger role than they're currently playing. To me, I think that digital transformation is, you know, a massive challenge and a massive opportunity for hr. It's all about, from my perspective, is all about, you know, the people in the business who are going to drive the business forward. And if it's about people, that should be something that HR is front and center at. In terms of HR's kind of role in this and what I'm seeing, I think there's two things. I think there's the obviously driving the people strategy to make sure that companies have the right skills in the right place at the right time. And that might not just be about recruiting people. It could be about tapping into the gig economy or having the right kind of bank of skills that they can access on demand. Lots and lots of different ways of shaping the workforce and thinking about talent. And I think HR needs to play a big part in that. And I'm seeing a number of HR professionals who are, who are doing that, but perhaps not as many as perhaps should. And I think the other aspect and the other challenging part of digital transformation for HR is HR is having to digitally transform itself. So the way it works, the way it thinks, you know, the systems and processes and technologies that are now available and giving the companies that are using them a cutting edge. So really I think it's, you know, I think it's a complicated thing. I think it's about supporting the people aspect of the digital transformation transformation of the business, but also digitally transforming the way HR works itself. So it's a dual challenge for hr.

I just want to pick up on something which you mentioned and you said that some HR departments are kind of embracing new ways of working better than others are. Tell us what you think the challenge is for those organizations where it's a bit of a struggle for HR to adopt new ways of working for the new type of world that we're working in.

Yeah, I think a lot of it depends on the work that that HR department has traditionally done, how strategic they are, how involved they are in the strategy of the business. You know, some companies will have built HR departments that are very reactive, that are there to mitigate risk, which is obviously a, you know, a big part of HR's job and haven't necessarily been given the opportunity to input into the strategy of the business. And I think it's very much about the leadership of the, you know, tapping into the expertise or Bringing expertise in people strategy into the business to really kind of drive it forward. So, you know, I would really put that challenge on the leadership of the business in terms of making sure that they have the right kind of HR setup and the right skills within their HR department, and they give those HR professionals the right access to influence the strategy of the business. So I think it's a, you know, I think it's a leadership challenge to make sure that people are the people strategy is positioned alongside the other aspects of their digital transformation strategy.

Sure makes sense, Matt. A lot of organizations compete for technical skills to help them with the digitization of their businesses. You've got artificial intelligence, blockchain, et cetera, et cetera. But what do you think are the people and leadership skills that are required to deliver successful transformation?

Yeah, that's an interesting question and probably one that we could talk about for hours and hours and hours. So, I mean, I suppose to sort of pick up a few things, I think that we have to recognize that for many employers, this is a time of dramatic change, and having the right leadership and the right culture to manage that change is absolutely critical. I think high levels of transparency coming from the leadership within a business is absolutely critical. And also building trust and building psychological safety around the changes taking place, and also the input that's required from the people is critical. I mean, to explain that a little bit more, I think one of the things that is really interesting about digital transformation is that the companies who are really leading the way are recognizing that it's not just about bringing people into their business with the right sort of, you know, the right skills. It's about bringing people into their business who perhaps have a different mindset to people they've recruited in the past. So people who are entrepreneurial, people who are disruptive, people who are going to really help, you know, mold and make the company sort of work and behave differently. And I think that lots of companies recognize that, and lots of companies are looking for, perhaps looking for people with different types of backgrounds to what they've recruited before. But I think there's a real challenge when it comes to sort of leadership and culture there, because while companies might understand that they need people who think differently, that has an impact on the culture, the way those people are managed within the business, if you're going to get the most out of those kind of changing mindsets. So I think there are lots of things to it, but I think trust and transparency and the sort of continual management of change and also building a diverse culture that is Going to be a magnet to the right types of talent is critical as well because as I said earlier, this may not be sort of recruiting people on full time contracts. It's getting the right freelancers and contractors to want to work for you in a very competitive market and making those people feel that they fit in and they're adding value and sort of going over and above themselves straight away. So I think it's a big challenge, but that sort of trust and transparency and managing change would be the big things for me.

And I think just building up that a little bit. Matt, I think another important factor is we've mentioned the people and the leadership skills required to deliver transformation. And it's one thing expecting leaders and senior managers to adopt the new way of thinking, et cetera, but when organizations bring in people who think differently, they also have to work with the wider workforce who don't necessarily adopt the same mindset as leaders. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, absolutely. And that for me is the biggest challenge. And you know, I've seen that firsthand in organizations that I've worked in where in the early part of my talent acquisition career when I was working in the marketing side of the business, I was building digital teams within established agencies, bringing in people who thought differently. And it's a massive challenge. It's, you know, how do you sort of bring people along with you? How do you get the best out of people who have, you know, great experience and skills? And I don't think there's an easy answer. I don't think there's an easy answer to it. But I think that recognizing that it is a challenge and continually working to solve it is probably key here because I think that a lot of companies don't necessarily acknowledge publicly to their employees that that is a, that is an issue and something that they're going to have to work through.

Matt, as organizations now compete for the skills they need to leverage emerging technologies, what talent acquisition strategies have you found to be most effective in attracting the right talent into an organization?

So it's a really interesting time. The reason I say that is there's an unprecedented amount of investment, particularly sort of VC investment going into talent acquisition technology at the moment. So the market with acquisition technology is absolutely crazy. Every week someone's launching a new tool or a new technology which is being touted as the silver bullet that's going to solve everyone's talent acquisition issues. So, you know, you kind of got this really sort of crazy technology driven market for talent acquisition at the moment when you Sort of step back from that and look through the marketing spin and see what's actually working. You kind of see what the problem is. And the problem is there aren't enough people with the right skills to fill the roles that people are looking for in very short time scales. So it's highly competitive and it's also very, very noisy if you have desirable skills in this industry. So trends change. But for a moment, say you're a high level data scientist, you could literally pick which company you wanted to work for. So the challenge for employers is actually being heard. It's actually getting the attention of the talent they want in their business and then persuading those people that this is the right opportunity for them to. So what I'm seeing working is the companies who are really focusing on understanding those target audiences. How do we, you know, how do we actually find these people, how do we speak to these people, how do we get their attention and then how do we tell our story as an employer in a way that's compelling and honest and is going to persuade someone that, you know, we're the right employer for them? And that's a lot of focus on talent intelligence and employer branding and, you know, effective storytelling, effective marketing, converting interest into applications. It's a really, really interesting time to be in talent acquisition. And I think for me, whilst there are some companies who are doing amazing things and I'm lucky that lots of them come on my podcast and talk about it, I think that generally speaking, it's something employers really need to up their game with. I think that if you look at the really bad job adverts that are kind of pumped out there, that are just job descriptions really sell businesses or sell culture or sell opportunity, there's still too much of that going on and not enough really sort of strategic thinking around talent attraction.

Matt, what gaps do you see in the talent acquisition armoury? Is there a need for external suppliers and what services do you feel offer the most value to the modern corporate?

Well, obviously there's a need for external talent acquisition strategy consultants like myself, seriously. I think, though, actually there is a need for companies to be able to take a step back and reflect and look at the whole market and really understand what the competitors are doing in the kind of supply side of things. I think one of the interesting debates that seems to have been going on for as long as I've been working in this industry is the use of recruitment consultants and recruitment agencies and headhunters. And 20 years ago we heard that the Internet was going to kill all those businesses and their demise has been sort of overstated ever since. So what you find now is that most employers who, particularly employers who are looking for, quickly looking for technical skills and other associated digital transformation skills, will have their own in house recruitment setups and operations. However, I think there is still a tremendous need for very, very, very good headhunters and recruitment agencies because, you know, things move very large companies. It's very, very difficult sometimes, I think for their in house teams to develop the expertise they need in every kind of single role. A lot of the talent that's out there, you know, it's kind of hiding itself from the market and actually understanding, you know, where the right people are is a, is a great skill that good recruitment agencies have. So I think that there is a, you know, there's still a big opportunity for recruitment agencies as suppliers to the industry. However, they've got to be very, very good. They've got to work in partnership employers that they support and they've got to be absolute domain experts in what they do. I think the time of the generalist recruitment agency is passing and I think that companies are actively seeking out people who can supply talent to them, who really, really understand the market and can kind of bridge those conversations between you, the employer and the top talent that's out there.

Matt, I want to talk about the future of work and the future of talent. Back towards the end of last year I was down in Oman and I was speaking to an audience of, I think it was about five or six hundred HR professionals and a lot of them were concerned about how machines are going to be playing a role in the future. How much realistically can be achieved by machines in the future and what will the future work look like for the good old fashioned human being?

Yeah, I mean, it's the question of the moment. On my own podcast I have someone come and talk about the future of work probably sort of every six or seven weeks. And everyone you ask has a slightly different view about how it's going to pan out. And they seem to be sort of two extremes. There's a kind of extreme where we bow down to our robot overlords and there's no work for anyone to do. And the other extreme is that nothing's going to change and things are going to stay the same. So it's an interesting question. Obviously it's a question that is of great interest to hr. I think that it's going to be interesting to see how it pans out. I suppose the best way to answer it is for me to sort of talk about what I really know, which is what's going on in the recruiting industry at the moment. So in the recruiting industry itself, there is a massive debate about how, you know, is there a role in the future for recruiters or will they be automated? Will all of this kind of stuff happen by, you know, happen automatically by robots and the, the human role of a recruiter won't exist anymore? And I think it's an interesting debate. And what's happening at the moment is lots of companies are launching technology that allegedly automates the recruitment process, but it's actually not very good and it doesn't actually do a great job. And the technology that we need to automate the recruitment process isn't necessarily there where it needs to be. And also the understanding of how the process actually works, what the human input is into it and how that can be automated is still evolving. So I think we've got a long way to go. So you could look at recruitment and say, well, you know, you can't possibly automate this because people are trying and they're failing. And that would be the wrong way to look at it because to me automation is, you know, it's a done deal, it's going to happen. It's absolutely inevitable. You know, we're seeing automation in everything that we do. You know, and even if humans can do something better, if you can automate it to 80% of that equality, then it's going to get automated. So I think in the future that they will crack how to pull apart and automate the recruitment process. Will there be a role for humans? Absolutely, there'll be a role for humans. It's a very human business. Ultimately it's about persuading people to, you know, to move jobs. That's all about relationships. That's all about, you know, it's a kind of, it's a very, very human aspect. So I would expect to see in my industry that much of the stuff that's done by humans at the moment will be automated. However, there is a real human role going forward, you know, perhaps operating at a kind of a higher relationship, relationship building and persuading and selling level. But things, you know, things will look very different in a few years time.

Matt, this is a fascinating topic and it's been terrific speaking with you about it today, but we're going to have to wrap it up there. Where can people go to learn more about what you've been speaking to us about today?

So I think the best place to go is my podcast because I interview great people on these topics all the time. You can find the podcast wherever you subscribe to podcasts. It's called the Recruiting Future Podcast. Or you can go to its website, which is rfpodcast.com Matt thank you and.

We'Ll put a link to that in the show notes. Thanks again for your time. Matt thanks very much for having me on the show.

We hope you enjoyed this episode of Leading Digital Transformation with Rob Llewellyn and the Digital Transformation people. Visit the digitaltransformationpeople.com to secure the knowledge, talent and services you need for Digital Transformation success. To continue your journey and as a Certified transformation professional, visit roblewellen.com be sure to subscribe to the podcast and follow us on Twitter at the Digital TP and Obert. Llewellyn.