How Early-Stage Founders Can Thrive in Competitive Markets With Peep Laja

Hello, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you're calling in from. We got a lot of people joining in. My name is Ayan Isaacs, I'm the head of global growth for the Founder Institute. We have an amazing, amazing session for you today. We have Pep Laja from CXL Live and Wynter to talk about how early-stage founders can thrive in competitive markets. He has a really, really good speaker session lined up for you. In the meantime, please let us know in the chat where you're coming in from. We have people from all over. We had about 260 people sign up for this event, which is definitely going to be recorded and distributed with everyone post this talk. So we have right now just people trickling in. We're in about the 30 range right now, but super, super excited for you all today. Don't want to keep anyone waiting too long. You know, today's also Martin Luther King Day in the US, so happy MLK Day if you're practicing celebrating in the United States. But apart from that, if our producers let's bring up Pep, I don't want to be the one to take the spotlight. We're all here to see Pep and hear his awesome presentation. What's up, Radu from Belgium? How's it going? Germany, Düsseldorf, awesome. Yeah, I'm based in Dubai, UAE. I float between Dubai, UAE and Toronto, Canada. So we're pretty good. I believe Pep's in Austin, Texas, and then we have our producers from all over. So hopefully it'll just pop up. Denmark, Germany, Bremen. Oh, I lived in Bremen for a bit. Awesome. Brad, do you want to bring up Pep to the stage and then let's kind of get this show started? So the way the format is, just some housekeeping. You'll see some Q&A section here on the right-hand side for your regular chat. There's also a special Q&A button. If you feel like there's specific questions you wanna ask, what we'll do is we'll open up Q&A towards the end. The presentation's about 20, 25, or 30 minutes, I would say. And then we'll do a little bit of Q&A. And then after that, we'll end the session. There's gonna be open networking. You'll see these virtual tables. And you can just jump in and start networking there. All right. Okay. Without further ado, Pep, how's it going?

Hey, thanks for having me. Excited. Exciting to be here.

Awesome. I'm sure we have a lot of people. We have someone from Dallas, German, also coming in. We have a lot of folks trickling in right now. You know, everyone's here to hear you speak. So I'm gonna hop off. Whenever you're ready, you can just share your presentation and go for it. I'll hop back on. We'll do maybe 3, 4 questions from the audience that we start to collect. And then yeah, best of luck. And audience, you have no idea what you're in for. This is a great presentation. I've heard it 3 times and each time Pep does it, I learn something new. So I'm gonna remove myself and let you take it away, Pep.

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you for the introduction. Guys, before we get going, in the chat, can you kind of give me an idea what kind of company you're with? What kind of stage are you? Like a SaaS company in the zero-to-one stage, or, or an agency, or what kind of a business are you running? So I have a bit of a read of the room. So yeah, why don't you send me a quick message so I can see who am I talking about? Seed stage, All right, thanks Giuseppe. All right, okay, one year, early stage, professional services. So I'm talking about a, a B2B, uh, uh, context here. My presentation is all about B2B and, and not about e-commerce. Some of the lessons obviously apply universally, uh, but most, most, most specifically, this is a B2B talk. So let's get into it. Uh, when we compare, compete in B2B— let me share my, uh, deck as well to accompany us here in, uh, during this chat. So the question is, we land with our company into the big market and, and we're trying to win, right? We're trying to get a result. So the question is, how do, how do we do that? The fact of the matter is that there have never been as many brands as there are today. And why is that? Of course, this is because money has never been as cheap as it is today, or maybe it was a little cheaper last year, but still compared to 10 years ago, there's a huge amount of capital available. Know-how is more readily available than ever before. Technology is way cheap compared to like 20 years ago. And of course, all, all of this has resulted in, in a huge amount of companies, huge amount of companies. And I'm, uh, I think you, you, all of you have seen this, this slide of this, this marketing, martech landscape was like 10,000 companies alone doing martech, marketing technology. It's insane, right? And then thousands of developer tools and so on. There more than 100,000 B2B SaaS companies. And business is war in the sense that if you want to get money from a customer, that means somebody else is not getting the money. So in that sense, it is war, it is competition. And how do we win? How do we win in the circumstance when there are so many companies around? And add here another difficulty. The stability of market positions is simply astonishing. Whoever manages to get the biggest first in a category stays there for a long, long, long time. Sometimes forever. Sometimes forever. Let's take a low-tech market segment like ketchup. Like Heinz ketchup was making millions, billions of dollars already in the 1970s. Selling ketchup, still number one today. Many, so many opportunities to disrupt Heinz hasn't happened. They managed to become the king of the ketchup category. They're still there today, many, many decades later. And if you look at like, uh, CRM, yeah, and enterprise CRM, uh, Salesforce launched, I think it was like 2004 or something, right? Or, or even a little earlier. Uh, they became the king of cloud-based CRM, and they're still the king today. In, in fact, they've been just growing. They've been growing. And the other top 5 really haven't changed. Like, maybe like who's second or third has a little, uh, flipped all around it. But like, this disruptor— and do you think that there are 5 companies competing in the space? No, there are like hundreds. There are hundreds of CRM, enterprise CRM companies competing for the same wallet. They haven't won. Yeah, so this— the, the stability of market positions is astonishing, which is what makes category creation such an attractive play. Because if you create a new category, you manage to become number one, odds are you're going to stay there for a long-ass time. Uh, and really, category kings rarely fall. And yes, we have the story of Nokia fell to Apple, where the smartphones made it obsolete. A Kodak, king of cameras, right? Where is Kodak today? But these are exceptions. These are nice stories where we're going to say that, yeah, category kings fall. And yes, it does happen. And it falls when technological disruption happens, complacency happens. The companies are not disrupting their own business models. But how many categories are there? Like if you go to G2 or Capterra today, how many categories, business categories there are? Like there, there, there's so many, uh, so many categories, so many category kings. Uh, and if we cannot beat the kings through technological disruption, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna win? Yeah, it's a difficult conversation. And, and add here the other fact of the law of double jeopardy. If you haven't read the book How Brands Grow, fantastic, fantastic. The Science of Marketing. But essentially, one of the key insights of studying market dynamics is that whose market share is bigger will get bigger and who's small will get smaller. It's kind of like the rich keep on getting richer, the poor keep on getting poorer. And a lot of, as a small brand, you get punished twice. You have less customers and they're also less loyal. And it's the flip side for the big customers. They get more customers who are more loyal. It's not a fair world. The odds are stacked against the small business, especially the small startup. It's a difficult situation. There's no way around it. Why, why more, more bigger companies get more market share, more customers? Obviously, it's this idea of mental availability. Uh, yeah, exactly, How Brands Grow by Byron Sharp. More mental availability. And mental availability is this insanely important concept. Essentially means that being thought of by category buyers in buying situations, right? So In this case, if you can see the screen, you see this on LinkedIn or Twitter every single day. Somebody asks, hey, what's your favorite CRM? What's your favorite email marketing tool? What's your favorite whatever tool? And guess who's being named? 90% answers will be about the category kings, the top 3. Oh, Salesforce. I like HubSpot. I like Pipedrive, blah, blah, blah. It's not the brand number 397. No, it's the founder of the brand number 397 who's like, me too, look at my brand. You know that. And of course that's pathetic and you shouldn't do that. So mental availability. And the curious thing about the mental availability, which, you know, it serves the big companies, it's about the very limited consideration set. You know, so if I'm shopping for a CRM, How do I do that? It's not that I make a list of every single CRM that is out there, all 500 of them according to G2, and I make a big-ass matrix with all the features and who has what features and who doesn't have those features, and then I make a rational choice and I compare every single option. No, absolutely not. That's not how the real world works. That's not how people make decisions. You're looking at 3 to 5 brands, the— and brands that you already know. If I'm looking at CRMs, uh, depending on if I'm, you know, a small business or a big business, the budget sets who's in my consideration set, right? So if I'm a bigger business, like it's HubSpot, it's Salesforce, etc. And, and your job as a founder, as a marketer, is to get inside that 3 to 5 tools that I think of. If I'm shopping for live chat tools, who's in my consideration set? Like, if I want a tool for heat maps, who's in my consideration set, right? That is our job. And the mental availability, the big category king thing, of course, is that people recommend tools they have never used. So if you see these recommendations on Twitter, on LinkedIn, wherever it is, and people reply, it's not because they are users of Salesforce. No, it's because they have heard of Salesforce and they have a good impression. Of it. They have heard of HubSpot and they have a good opinion of HubSpot, not that I've ever used HubSpot. And I spent the last 10 years of my career in like conversion optimization and experimentation. So I'm like a category connoisseur for A/B testing tools. And when I see all the time on, on Twitter or LinkedIn this conversation where some freelance content writer asks, hey, what A/B testing tools should I use? To test my whatever, article headlines. Somebody says, oh, you should use Optimizely. Oh, and, and then, oh, thank you, great. I'll look, you know, I'll use Optimizely. Obviously, these people know nothing about statistics, when to use A/B testing tools. They don't know that Optimizely costs $150,000 starting from, uh, but they recommend them because they have heard of Optimizely as an A/B testing tool. This is the reality we live in. Um, it's, it's a world full of bullshit and it's not fair. Uh, as a small business, the— it's really stacked against you. And as I said, the old rational B2B buyer doesn't exist. Meaning like nobody compares every single tool. It's, it's the tools they have heard of, uh, the tools they know. And it's the same thing. Like if you want to buy jeans, let's say you want to buy jeans, which, which brands would you even look into? If you want to buy online, you don't go into a, you know, a mall or something, right? Like, there are certain brands that are in the top of your top of mind. So if we need to get inside that consideration set, if we want to even be considered Then what do we do? Uh, you know, broadly speaking, there are 3 ways to do that. There are 3 ways to get inside the consideration set. Number 1, the best absolute winning way, is innovation. Innovation meaning that the product that you build is objectively clearly better than anything else out there. Everybody else is using the status quo tool. Everybody's using, I don't know, let's say it's email marketing, they're using MailChimp. And your tool is every, you know, every category that matters, you're better, right? And you change the game and people are like, the hell am I using MailChimp for? I'm going to use this new thing. And that's way better. So like these two, both of these are Toyota Corollas. And even though the one on the right, the old one, kind of looks cooler. I think that's a subjective opinion. It's subjectively better. I think it looks better, but that's just my opinion. I think Alejandro over here will like the one on the left. And this is now meaning subjectively better. And this is how most companies market themselves. They say we are better because blah, blah, blah, but that's an opinion. It's subjectively better. The car on the left here is objectively better. It has better technology, better gas mileage, better safety. Every objective criteria, it is better than the one on the right. I just like the one on the right better, which is subjectively better. But it's not enough. To win, the best way to win is to be an objectively better product. The problem is, of course, how many objectively better products are there in the world? Google Search is one today. It's still far better than Bing or DuckDuckGo. Uh, you know, so the Google is the best objectively better search engine. However, uh, is there a CRM that is objectively clearly better I don't think so. Is there an email marketing tool that is just objectively clearly better and everybody agrees, yes, that's better? No, no, it doesn't exist. There are some email marketing tools that maybe are better for a specific use case, right? But not overall objectively better. ChatGPT better than Google? Oh, not yet, right? Let's be honest, ChatGPT for the most part is mediocre. Also, the dataset that it knows is only up to a certain date. It knows nothing about recent events. I think it's like 2020, it doesn't know new stuff. But in the future, we'll see what happens. But today, Google is still king for searching anything. Okay, Tinder. When Tinder launched, and this is, you know, I think 10 years ago already, the dating market, the dating app market was already extremely crowded, right? There was so many dating apps and match.com and, you know, whatever global things. Yeah, Tinder came and became huge very, very quickly. Why? Well, innovation. They brought the swiping UX, you know, left and right. It was a new cool thing. Nobody else had it. Nobody had seen it. It was, people liked it and only thanks to that, nothing else. I mean, some ideas also that it's all about the looks, it's easy to set up matches, but all of this we can say it's innovation, right? And then two other competitors that followed it, basically, you know, Bumble and so on and so forth, also became big, just basically copying Tinder to a T. I mean, I think it was The same founders also that went on to— some of the co-founders went on. But basically, it's an example of a crowded market was disrupted by innovation, changing, coming out with a totally different idea of how this product might be. So it can happen. Or Tesla was a category of one, the only one making electric cars that were commercially viable. Right now, uh, half the car companies are making electric cars, and in a few years every single carmaker has all the electric cars and maybe even only electric cars, right? It's coming, it's happening. And so when Tesla crafted its market share through innovation, right, electric cars, it was the only game in town. There was nobody else. It was a category of one. Down the line, now that competition is coming, of course they need to start competing on brand just like everybody else. But through innovation, they crafted out their market share in a very, very crowded market. So innovation. So we have to understand that every innovation is a transient advantage. Just making electric cars that can go 300 miles or whatever, and it was objectively better way. Now there's a lot of competition, and unless Tesla keeps out-innovating every other electric car maker out there, like, the objective advantage will cease to exist. It's like, you know, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, none of them is objectively better. They're all, you know, subjectively better, let's say, like somebody, a guy, somebody likes Audi and somebody likes BMW. Really, it's a, it's a, it's a brand preference game, right? So, so we'll, we'll see what happens to Tesla over the next, uh, um, uh, 10 years. The second way how you can get inside the consideration set, so the people would even consider buying you or from you over everybody else, is just, it's, it's money and marketing. The concept called excess share of voice. Excess share of voice, really what it means is that you spend more on advertising, uh, than other companies with a relatively similar market share. So if you own 2% of the market but you spend like you own 5% of the market, over time you will grow. There are hundreds and thousands of case studies how this has been done in all kinds of sectors. This is not a new concept. This is how the economy has worked since the '50s and '60s. How retail brands like Lidl grew in the UK. Just slowly, slowly, slowly, they're just out-advertising the competition and the market share will grow because they're building up mental availability They're slowly getting their way into your consideration set by spending money. Uh, you know, if you're in the US, every— you know, everybody can finish the sentence, Geico can save you, dot, dot, dot. Everybody knows this because they've hammered it through advertising to you, to your head. They've bought their way inside our, uh, consideration sets, essentially, right? Um, CRM— sorry, uh, not CRM, but I guess Monday also wants to be a CRM, but like Project management, task management tools like Monday are extremely crowded market, one of the most competitive SaaS categories there is. And Monday was, was, is a relatively recent entrant to this market, and they were maybe tool number 450 to enter this market, and now they sit firmly one of the biggest in this massive, massive category. And how did Monday, in such a relatively small time, get there? How did they get their spot? Are they objectively and clearly better than Asana or ClickUp or whatever other tool, uh, one of their competitors? It's not. It's not. It's more of the same, really. I mean, it's a great fucking tool. I love it. Uh, but It's no better than Asana. It's no better than ClickUp. Really, they're like almost identical replacement. And maybe the actual product differentiation is a fringe feature that somebody in a fringe field needs and where it is an objectively better tool. But for most people, it's pretty much the same, right? Like the key features that we would use. So how did Monday that is not much different than anybody else become so big, so huge? Well, let's look at their financial reports, shall we? So let's, uh, so look at the top line. Top line is revenue, how much money they're making. And this is per quarter, right? So it goes quarter by quarter. So, uh, you know, the middle of 2019, they made $17 million a quarter, and then in '21, $21 million. 20. So the revenue is growing, right? They're making more money per quarter. Now look at the line, um, that is sales and marketing expenses. So it's like 6th or something line from the top, uh, sales and marketing costs. And you can see that the sales and marketing cost is always bigger than their whole revenue. So they spent more on advertising than, than their whole revenue, right? Of course, it takes a lot of VC money to do so, and they had a lot. And they had— if you look at the Crunchbase and look up how much money they've raised, it's insane, right? But this is why, this is why this, this type of VC money is raised, so they can do that. So literally, they spent way more than anybody else in this category. Like, if you— I mean, still happens if you go to YouTube I mean, maybe a year ago it seemed like they bought up the whole YouTube ad inventory. Like, you couldn't watch a video on YouTube without getting bombarded by Monday.com ads. I mean, they're still everywhere. So they literally bought their way into our mental availability. And they're still growing, still raking it in. So it, again, outspending everybody else clearly works to buy, to get inside the consideration set. Now, when people are evaluating productivity tools, Monday is one of the tools they look at. Um, and why is advertising also so powerful is because, uh, data by the LinkedIn B2B Institute, um, is showing very, uh, clearly that only 5% of category buyers are in market today. Like, all of— out of all the possible CRM buyers Only 5% today shopping for a new CRM, but 3 years from now somebody else sees. So 95% of buyers are out of market. Doesn't matter what the two categories, but they're not buying today. But advertising is like insurance. It means that when the time comes that they have the need and the budget, they think of you, right? That's mental availability, being thought of by category buyers in buying situations. And advertising, consistent advertising is a way to get there. And how do you get there? The money, money-wise, it's like to build maximum mental availability, you take your annual ad budget, you know, whatever it is. If it's like $120,000 a year, you take that, you divide that by 12. So you have $10,000 a month. You divide that by 30. An average number of days per month, and that's how much you spend per day. So you don't want to do a huge spike advertising and then nothing. You want to do a consistent, um, advertise broadly to all category buyers all the time. That's, that's, that's how you do it. And so the third way to win beyond the product is to win by, through narrative, positioning, messaging, and content. Now, the first two ways are a little harder, I should say a lot harder. It's extremely difficult to build a product that is objectively better, to bring in true innovation. Takes a lot of talent, a lot of R&D, a lot of money. Um, it's not easy because otherwise everybody would be innovating, right? And say, say, outspending everybody else, well, takes a lot of capital, right? You need to be heavily VC funded, All kinds of challenges there, obstacles. But the third way to win beyond the product, this is accessible to every single person in here at this talk. So, so, uh, what does it mean? Let's look, let's take a closer look. Winning beyond the product. And a great product is of course a prerequisite. So I'm not going to say the product doesn't matter. No, no, what you offer is great, but you need to go beyond the product because everybody has a great product. That's, that's a given today. So first, first decision you need to make is like the category that you're in. How crowded is the category? And how many, like, how many competitors are there? And how mature is the category? Meaning that, do people know this category exists? Do they every year want to buy a category, uh, product of that category? Do they have an allocated budget line item for that category? Like, we need a CRM, of course we have a budget for a CRM product, versus if you have, I don't know, event analytics software, which is a new idea, they might not have an existing budget for it. So the question is, um, so the question is category maturity. So category maturity and competition determine your mark— the way you should market your company. If you're in a category that is, uh, has high level of maturity, people know it, understand it, I get it, and there's a lot of competition, the way you market yourself, the marketing strategy should be to sell your differentiated value. But essentially asking the question, why me and not the other guys? If you're a website— web agency, there's some guy here says that he's a UX/UI designer, right? Well, so is everybody else. Romain has, you know, 1 billion competitors because everybody, everybody's a UX/UI designer, right? So just the fact that you do this— let's look at Romain's value proposition here. Uh, improve user experience through easy-to-use appealing interface. Well, this is the lamest sales pitch of all time because Romain is here, is painting himself as a commodity. Why not try me next? He has zero differentiation. He says things that every single company or a freelancer in this category is saying. He's saying, hey, do you want a website? I do websites. Nobody will buy you because you build websites, right? Because everybody builds websites. There's so many options. The only question what matters is what is a meaningful differentiation that I should choose you? That's all your marketing should focus on. Not that I do this, but why me? On the flip side, if you do something that is brand new, like there are very few or no competitors in this space, people even don't know that they need this thing, then you sell the category. You create demand for the category. Then you say, hey, you should do a website, consider a website redesign. If you're the only designer in the planet, you sell design, you don't sell why me. So you sell why, why you should redesign your website, right? Uh, that would, that would be the case. So in my case with Winter, my company, I'm a B2B message testing company. I'm the only B2B message testing company on the planet Earth. Uh, and if you pay attention to marketing of Winter, the, all the, the whole marketing is why you should do message testing, because if they buy the idea that they need to do message testing, there's nobody else to turn to. So I'm, I'm evangelizing the category, not the product, because of the category I'm in. Uh, so once you've established that, there are three, three things that you need to focus on with your marketing. You need to stand out from all the noise. So if you're in a competitive category, you need to stand out. How do they even find out about you? Then you need to stay top of mind. So You know, when they have eventually have a need and budget, they think of you. And then C, when they are, you're in the consideration set, they look at 3 to 5 options and one of the options is you, then how do you make them choose you and not somebody else? Okay, so let's look at each of these options. So first of all, stand out. How do we stand out in a noisy marketplace? If we're CRM, we're a UX designer, how do we stand out? Okay, you need to understand this concept of the law of shitty click-throughs. This is not invented by me, it's the former VP Growth of Uber, Andrew Chen. He has written a great essay on this topic, Google it. Essentially, it means that every, everything that works over time stops working. Because, uh, this tactic is overused. When the first banner ad appeared on the internet, it got like 99%, 99.8% click-through rate or something. Today, if you have a display banner ad, uh, what's the click-through rate you're gonna get on that? You know, it's gonna be 0.01, right? So effectiveness is completely tanked. Same with like email pop-ups. You go to a blog, you There's a popup, ask for your email address. 2010, the conversion rate from visit to popup, like email capture, was like average conversion rate was like 10%. 10% of people who saw the popup gave you their email address. Today, if you get 1%, it's phenomenal. It's phenomenal if you get more than 1%. Yeah, the effectiveness has tanked over the years because Somebody finds some, an interesting marketing tactic, everybody else starts using it, and then effectiveness completely, uh, tanks. And that happens with everything. So, so think about the marketing that you do. Do you do the type of marketing that everybody else is also doing, or do you do something that nobody else is doing? Uh, and if you do something that everybody else is doing, you will not get noticed. Yeah, that is the sad thing. So what you need is marketing R&D. So you need to be consistently working on, uh, creating new channels, new ways to capture, like, new things that nobody has ever seen so it stands out. New playbooks, new channels, new formats. Everybody does a, does an interview podcast. Okay, so if you were to do a podcast Or maybe you think of it just as an audio show. What's something that would be like really different, really cool, very value-driven, right? That's the way. It's probably hard to see the screenshot here, but this is an example of the lamest webinar pitch of all time. It's like, webinar series, manage your digital future. Huh? Like, who in the world would say, wow, this is amazing, I really want to manage my digital future. No, nobody, nobody gives a shit about that. Or how you can achieve an enterprise-wide rollout of your digital transformation. Again, nobody gives a shit. And it says a bunch of other so boring, so predictable things like, when is it— as part of a digital transformation journey, people have to blah blah blah. It's so boring. It's so boring. Like, why would anybody— like, how do you— how can you imagine that this kind of a sales pitch will ever stand out? How do you ever imagine that you would get in anyone's consideration set with such a boring sales pitch? Yet, yet, this is what most people do. Think back of your last 3 online, um, events that you put on. Like, how conventional versus radically different are they, right? So really, if, uh, I guess it's a story of incrementalism. And if we only want to do like a little bit better— this is like every other webinar but 2% better— uh, you're just not audacious or bold enough, right? That's, that's a, that's a big problem. And, and I, I personally believe that your marketing, uh, needs to be split into two functions. Ideally, you have two different people working on it. I understand different companies are in different stages, different economic means available, but, uh, but think about this. So you have exploit— sorry, you have explore team, and explore team is finding new channels, new offers, new formats. It's just searching for, hey, let's, uh, tick— okay, what can we do? Everybody does this kind of thing, so TikTok, let's let's do something that's completely different that really stands out on TikTok, or let's bring TikTok type of videos to LinkedIn, or, you know, like you're searching, or maybe there's a, there's a whole new emerging social network that nobody has even tapped into, but our audience is hanging out there. Let's, let's play around there. Or if you want to do, you know, a webinar, let's not do a webinar. Let's like, Oh, can we do like what Jimmy Kimmel is doing or Jimmy Fallon? Like, let's bring some Hollywood-level stuff into this thing. You know, like you're just exploring, you're trying radically crazy ideas. Did you hear about what Patrick Campbell, the founder of ProfitWell, now the chief strategy officer for Paddle, what he did at SaaStock, the Europe's biggest SaaS conference. So the guy has— in case you weren't there or didn't hear about it, he did something that— a total pattern interruption, which was he has a keynote at a conference. 1,000 people are there watching his keynote. And what is his keynote about? He only says a single word: churn, churn, churn. Churn, churn, churn, churn, churn. And not just 2 minutes. This is the whole talk, is the word churn. Imagine 30 minutes, somebody saying a single word. Now, does that stand out? Will you tell your friend, holy shit, what did I just witness? What the fuck was that? That's pattern interruption. It's unexpected, left field, didn't see that coming, right? Uh, that's what I'm talking about. Then you have the other function, which is the exploit part of the marketing, which is you do find a new format. Or if we do a show on Twitter that's like this, it really gets engagement. Okay, now how do we operationalize it? How do we repeat it, make it a repeatable pattern? And we exploit it until the law of shitty click-through, uh, kicks in and it becomes ineffective and we kill it. Meanwhile, the explore team has found another channel, another format, another message, another thing that is interesting, passes it on to the exploit team who operationalizes it as an SOP. This is how we do it, this is how we do it fast, this is how we do it high quality. You do that and, and forever and ever, right? Uh, but if you don't have the explore part and you just do the exploit part, we just do the Facebook ads like everybody else, and we just, you know, write a blog post once a week, you know, like, good luck standing out ever, right, in a crowded market. And also, let me talk about crowded markets. The whole concept of positioning, or meaning like, who are we competing against? So think with me for a minute. So let's imagine this photo of people. Is all the people, all the category buyers. So these are all the people we want to sell to, right? So let's look at a couple of examples. So there's Apple making smartphones and there's Samsung making smartphones, right? Two big competitors in the smartphone market. Now they overlap very little. There are very few people that they had an Apple and now switching to Samsung and vice versa. Usually if you're an Android person, you stay Android and vice versa. right? Now, so this is great. And now, uh, LG, if you remember a few, you know, some years ago, also entered the smartphone market, also started making, uh, Android, uh, phones. And what target market did they choose in the market? Basically, they decided to overlap almost entirely with Samsung. They went for after exact same customer. They were selling, and they were selling their phones with the pretty much the same messaging and, you know, similar features and all that stuff. And what happened? What happened was that because Samsung was far better, far richer, and so on, they kicked LG's ass so bad that LG, uh, you know, pretty much pulled out from the smartphone-making market, was like, is a subcontractor for the most part. Making Google phones and so on and so forth. So they got just eviscerated by Samsung because they went after Samsung's most profitable customers. And that's not what you should do. If you want to take on a category giant, I mean, A, don't, because you're going to get killed. They have more muscle, more brand, more money, better quality people because they can pay more money. And they will win. So instead, if you want to take on a category giant, you go after their least profitable customers so they won't fight you. If you study marketing, like let's say cars, this is what Kia and Hyundai were doing in the '90s. Remember when Kia and Hyundai got started in the '90s? They made the, the shittiest quality subcompact cars that were so cheap you couldn't believe that how can a car be so cheap. And they had And the cars were also, you know, objectively terrible, but they were cheap. So there was a demographic buyer for them now. And they, Toyota and Honda and so on, lost customers that were the least profitable, like buying their subcompact cars. And Toyota was like, we don't care about these customers anyway, they're not very profitable. So they didn't fight. And of course, Kia and Hyundai Cut those customers, got a little more money, started making compact cars, started making sedans. And of course today they're making excellent cars. You know, there's like sub-brands of luxury cars like Genesis. Kia Telluride is like the best-selling SUV in the United States. I mean, now Toyota and Nissan and Honda are like, holy shit, we could have killed them, but like we failed to act because they strategically just Gain the foothold in a segment and then expand it. That's what you should do. So let's look at another market. So let's say this is HubSpot, the CRM, right? And then this is Salesforce. Salesforce is much, much, much bigger than HubSpot, but there's a significant overlap. HubSpot is going after a certain segment of Salesforce customers. It used to be that HubSpot was really for small, smaller companies and scaling companies, they're going more enterprisey. But of course, HubSpot, there's no weakling anymore, right? You know, like, uh, making, you know, a billion dollars in revenue or something. So HubSpot can now fight a bigger war. Now, if you are also a CRM, or let's say you want to start a new, uh, CRM, where would you do— where would you, uh, put yourself on this category buyer map? If I were smart, I would start somewhere here. I would not go after the same customers as HubSpot and Salesforce at all in the beginning. Or maybe I would go here where I'm like, again, nibbling at the least profitable customer segment so they won't care about me, they won't fight me, they will ignore me until I gain a toehold, again a foothold, and I can expand out from there. You know, that's how you want to do positioning against, uh, big category leaders. You know, the, the famous story of when Drift, uh, launched to the market and, you know, became a unicorn, you know, relatively quickly. They came to the market that was already well established, you know, live chat tools and, you know, chatbots and so on. So they changed the positioning completely because they didn't call themselves a live chat tool. They, you know, they call themselves conversational, uh, marketing. Conversational sales, right? It's a different category of a product. They call it a different thing, uh, even though they were an alternative to traditional segments, but they were largely ignored, uh, for a long-ass time, and they perceived to be totally different thanks to different positioning. Um, uh, so they weren't company number 300 in a live chat market that had been around for 20 years. Suddenly they were new and exciting tool and they sold you this idea of no, you should stop using forms because like the whole world is real time now. The idea that lead comes to your website, fills out a form and waits 24 hours for a response, that's just crazy. Everything should be real time. They came out with this whole marketing strategic narrative of how the world has changed and people bought Bought this story. Uh, uh, okay, so the question for the, for the, um, so the question in a crowded market is like, can you tie yourself to a unique job to be done? A unique job to be done so you can craft a unique positioning in the market so you're not like HubSpot. And so if you think about what is a consideration set, so consideration set is the companies that come to mind, right? So if you say, I want to do heat maps for SMBs, oh, it's Hotjar. CRM for scaling companies, HubSpot. Or I want to need marketing training for digital companies, oh, CXL. So like, who, who comes immediately to mind? So you want to create a new type of job-to-be-done box where you can fit in. If it's just like a CRM, okay, we cannot fit in there. Their top 5 is already filled. Can we create a new job-to-be-done box where we are in, right? So that's an interesting, uh, thought exercise. So Copper is a CRM, and how Copper is positioning themselves is we're known for our Google Workspace integration. So essentially, if you're using Google Workspace, formerly known as G Suite, you should use us. So they're, so they're creating a new job-to-be-done category. If they can't be in your top 5 CRM selection, but if this is an important thing that matters to you, now you think of Copper. And so prerequisite for crisp positioning is Everybody who sees, uh, comes across your, you know, your, your messaging understands what is it. Uh, it's clear who is it for, so your ideal customer will understand, ah, this is for me. And then also you list the use cases of like, what is it for? All right, let's look at some examples here. So Klaviyo, Klaviyo, when they got started, they entered the market of email marketing, marketing automation, right? And it was a very, very crowded market already. Mailchimp was already huge, you know, already like, you know, close to a billion in revenue. So Klaviyo created a new type of subcategory called e-commerce marketing automation, e-commerce marketing automation. So to be different from Mailchimp, who was the category king. And, and of course now Klaviyo is the category king of e-commerce marketing automation. It's ginormous. I think they're like valued at some $10 billion or something. So, and really in a relatively short amount of time. And if you go to Klaviyo's website today, still they lead with the category. What is it? It's an e-commerce marketing automation platform. All right, uh, gorgeous. They entered a saturated market of help desk software. Uh, Zendesk was already a giant, uh, you know, decacorn They did not decide to take on Zendesk. So again, they went for a subcategory, positioned them as e-commerce help desk. And if you still go to Gorgias today, uh, it's Gorgias is the e-commerce help desk. They, they're clearly saying what category of a tool it is— e-commerce, uh, help desk. Yeah, uh, and now they're the category king of of this. Winter, B2B message testing platform. If you go to Winter's website today, our messaging has a little evolved since then, since this particular screenshot, but we make it clear from the get-go. It's a message testing platform, and then, you know, it's for B2B, and so there's no mistake about it. The opposite, the fuzzy positioning, is that when you you don't say at all who you're for, or you try to say we're for everybody. Uh, so look at this company here. Oh, uh, better teamwork, fewer meetings. Uh, what? Uh, Range is the place for remote and hybrid teams to check in with each other, blah blah blah. Okay, so now I'm unclear of what category of a product is it. Is it— what does it replace? Does it replace Zoom? Does it replace Slack? Do I use anything? What do I use this instead of? Or is it an add-on? Like, I'm unclear. And because I can't put it in a box— that's what categories is, this is box it. People want to put you in a box. And if they can't put you in a box, they can't figure out what is this, they're just going to give up. It's like nobody's going to work really hard to like, oh, how can I give money to this company that I don't even understand? Right, so this is terrible fuzzy positioning here. Our next example is, is this project management software, or I think so, because who— and project management software is how crowded market, like it's insane, right? And now they say, oh, we're from agencies and recruiting, oh, oh, a product, actually product management, oh, and support and marketing. And it's like, and so it's one of these cases where they have the rotating headline some designer, uh, thinking that this was sexy, uh, and designed this piece of shit. Uh, and so good luck, good luck with it, good luck to them. And same thing, like, if you have these rotating things, we're for this and we're for that and the other thing and this thing and that thing, it's, it's terrible positioning. You will sometimes see some market-leading companies do that, uh, but this is the old proverb of, you know, what's, you know, permitted to some is not permitted to ox, or, you know, whatever they said back in ancient Rome. So do not copy category leaders and think that that's, that's what I want to work for you as a small upstart. You know, Amazon's conversion— e-commerce conversion rate is 74%. 74%. It's insane. So if you copy Amazon's design And if you copy Amazon's messaging and copy, will your conversion rate also be 74%? Well, hell no. You cannot copy superficial cosmetic elements of somebody, uh, and think that, that, that's where the results come from. That's naive. So, uh, once you stand out, crisp positioning, you do marketing differently, you need to stay top of mind. How do you do that? Well, mental availability is is the game. I've talked about, mentioned this multiple times now, being thought of by category buyers in buying situation. So the content engine, so Profitwell, which is subscription analytics software, they have different ICPs for each of their ICPs over e-commerce and SaaS pricing people. For each of these, they have different shows, original shows, you know, uh, podcasts and YouTube shows and so on. So they're constantly creating a media channel like a newspaper or a magazine for a certain persona for whom this is relevant, interesting content, and they're turning, producing this high-quality content on a regular basis. So if you're interested in that particular space, you will see this content. I run this YouTube— sorry, a LinkedIn show called Do You Even Resonate? Maybe you've seen it, maybe you're not. If you follow me on LinkedIn, which you should, then you see every week I'm doing one of these episodes where it's a product-led content. I'm finding an excuse to show my product while making it relevant and entertainment, really. That's what it is. So I have original shows targeting a certain ICP. I do every single month, I do a virtual conference. You know, some companies do a virtual conference once a year and it's like a big thing and, oh hey, we got 500 people to sign up for our virtual conference. Well, I mean, I do this, you know, every other month, and I get like 1,000 people for each one, you know. And, and, you know, so really, and the way I'm doing my events, and this is just between you and me, guys, like, the speakers at my events are my ICPs. So I have my ABM list, if you will, companies that should be my customers, right? And so I have a list of 300 target accounts. I have specific people from those companies that should know about me. You know, as a small startup, and Wynter is a startup as well, the biggest problem is that people don't know you exist, right? So first step in the conversion funnel is that they need to become aware that you exist. And the best first contact is not like It's not cold email or LinkedIn DM that, hey, do you wanna buy my UI/UX services? I'm a freelancer and spamming events like this. That's the, the, the absolute worst way to do it. The best way is like you, you, you get them to co-create content with you to an audience. You give them a pedestal, you develop relationship, uh, and only then they become aware of your product. That's step one. So I do a lot of this virtual events, online workshops, things like this. Where I invite my target customers to create content with me, and it works brilliantly. And, you know, Winter Workshops is one of my ICPs, and also one of my biggest customers presenting there. I run a podcast called How to Win, because again, if somebody becomes aware that I exist as a person, they follow me on LinkedIn or Twitter or whatever, then I'm offering them other ways to be engaged with me. And podcast is is one of the other ways. Podcasts, of course, extremely crowded as well, but it's more like podcasts are totally shit for acquiring new audience, but it's fantastic to deepen the relationship with the audience you already have, right? So that's the role a podcast plays. And then you want to advertise as much as you can, you know? So obviously you have different ad budgets. If you're starting out, you might not have much at all, and that's okay. That's okay. So you just need to be more targeted. But basically you want to advertise to all category buyers and in a specific way, as I said, take your annual budget, divide by 12, divide by 30, spend that every single day. Then I do also, I retarget the shit out of people with video ads. If you go to Winters YouTube channel, you will see this funny ad that we produced. I think we're running out of time, otherwise I would show it to you. And then the final, final step is then out, and you need to out-convert. So they find out about you, that you stay top of mind, and one day they have the need and the budget. And this might be 2 years later, for all you know. 2 years later, they finally come to your website. Okay, I'm going to look at, you know, Winter and these other companies, or, you know, your company and these other companies. Now you need to out-convert the other company. So If you can acquire customers cheaper than your competition, I mean, that's how you dominate, right? Uh, so conversion, them signing up for something, is the effect. It's, it's— you can't, uh, impact it directly. You need to impact the cause. You need to work on the cause. And out of your conversion rate equation, 80% of what gets people to sign up, to buy, to fill out a form or whatever it is. It's messaging. It's words. Because if the best way to get somebody to do something is to make them want to do something. You make them want, you increase their motivation to take action. And the only way to do that is through words. Maybe it's video, maybe it's words on your website. And it's mostly words on your website. All right. And motivation is far, far, far more powerful than working on minimizing friction. Yes, great UX and all the stuff matters, absolutely, but the words matter even more. And so the question, you know, Unbounce is a landing page builder. They have this data where, uh, the copy on your landing pages is twice as important as design when it comes to converting people. So of course the problem is that the symptoms of ineffective messaging are extremely difficult to spot. It's hard to know what all the words that we have on our website, which ones are working and which ones are actually driving people away. And so I have this great chart that I designed. So really I've distilled it down to 5, like let's say parts or components So you, you need to look at your messaging. First of all, clarity. Do they understand it? If they don't get it, nothing else matters. Then is it relevant? Do they understand it's for them? Is it differentiated? Do they understand why you and not somebody else? Do they want the value that you're promising? The promise of value to be delivered, your value proposition to the other, like, wow, that sounds really cool. I want that. And then of course there's the brand, like, do I wanna be associated with like the soft values, right? What does it say about me when I buy you? Things like that. And if you work on these 5 areas, you get signups, you get demos, you get purchases, you get more word of mouth, things like that. So knowing which messages your buyers need to hear will radically improve your conversion rate, will radically improve your marketing. And you figure that out by buyer intelligence surveys through message testing. And then when you optimize your messaging for clarity, relevance, differentiation, value, you will get more conversion rates. That's how you dominate. So how do you win beyond the product? You need to stand out, need to stay top of mind, need to outconvert by mainly focusing on the quality of your messaging. David Cancel, the founder of Drift, said already almost 6 years ago, now that product-based differentiation is going away. Act accordingly. And this is, you know, more relevant today than it was 6 years ago. Thank you very much. Let's do some Q&A.

Hey, Pep, awesome. That was an awesome, awesome speech. And, Tech, let me— so, folks, On the side here you have a Q&A bar. We've already started adding some stuff. Please upload it. We'll try to do the 4 or 5 most popular questions there. I'm gonna kick things off from Fanny, the founder of Supracool, which I think is a valid, very valid question. Don't forget, a lot of our audience are early-stage entrepreneurs, early-stage founders. But he says, "We want to embrace the MVP idea. We have some cool new tech, but business customers won't even consider testing us." until a product is perfect with all the features of the existing incumbents? Is the only way forward to build a complete product? So in short, what does an MVP look like in today's—

yeah, I don't think it needs to be a complete product, but it needs to do one valuable thing really fucking well. I think you cannot start by building an MVP to replace an all-in-one tool. Like, you cannot build a tool that replaces HubSpot, you know, as an MVP. It's too big of a scope, but you can build MVP of a tool that would replace one part of HubSpot where HubSpot is, is, is lacking. So for instance, if you talk about HubSpot, HubSpot's chat tool is, is absolute garbage. It's like so bad, it's embarrassing. I don't know why they even have it. It's total shit. Now it's very easy to build an objectively better, uh, chat tool that natively integrates with HubSpot. You can plug it in, uh, they would absolutely switch over, and then you can, you know, add those things. But like, so you wanna— the first feature you build that is a great, great MVP, this is like, think about the differentiation and innovation. It just needs to be so much better than what they're actually using right now. And if it needs to be part of a bigger thing, you need to also build in integration so it plugs in into their existing tech stack as it is. So I think, you know, today in SaaS there are these two ways. Either you become an all-in-one like HubSpot or Salesforce, or, uh, you, you, your tool can work as an invisible tool, meaning it's not yet another place to log into. It plugs into their existing tech stack As in like you build a thing that plugs into HubSpot, but they can manage it from inside HubSpot, for instance.

Awesome. Yeah, thanks.

Very, very valid.

I'm going to go to the next one, which is, so you brought up this concept of explore and exploit team. So individuals like myself who are kind of managing working teams, you know, who should be on the exploit team? Who should be on the explore team? And like, how would you measure their performance? Like, what's a good KPI there?

Yeah, well, the exploit team is literally, well, depending on what the bottom of the line metric for you is, is it signups, purchases, pipeline, you know, like those are the people who are, whose KPI is driving the bottom of the funnel numbers. Purchases and signups. So that's the exploit team. The prerequisite there is that you have already found something that works, something new that works. Now the explore team, their KPI needs to be the number of experiments they run, how many experiments they run per month. Because if they only test one new channel every once a quarter, it's extremely slow. So this is like rapid, high tempo testing, you know, like rapid experimentation. And so KPI 1 is how many experiments have you run, how many things you've tried. And KPI 2 is also how many things that also work have you found, because you can just try a bunch of stupid shit also. It's not enough.

Yeah, very. That was when I was at CXL Live. That was one of the questions I was asking a lot of the individuals that were attending as well. So I'm just gonna ask a couple more. I'm going into the chat because a lot of folks have put there. Folks are talking about like crowdfunding platforms. How would crowd— like, I guess it's very tough on the B2B side, but I guess maybe leaning a little bit on your Winkure and your CXL knowledge, but like, let me just read it out specifically. For example, are you saying don't start a general Kickstarter crowdfunding platform that targets all categories, or maybe a platform that's targeted at a specific category could work? So if somebody is looking to crowdfund within maybe their early-stage customers, you know, should they just pick a specific category or should they go across verticals?

Um, so is the question of how to fundraise on crowdfunding platforms, or is a business strategy question?

I guess it's a little bit, but it's not entirely clear.

So, so, I mean, okay, let's, let me answer them then separately. If you're a startup, you're just finding your, you know, your, your first million in revenue Um, you, you will be so much more successful if you target the very specific, very special customer— not broad, but niche— who have very specialized products, problems. It's far easier, and you will get far, uh, broader success, far better success if you're, you're, uh, like e-commerce help desk, but not even e-com— e-commerce help desk For companies who use Shopify, who are like under $100,000 in revenue, who are in Chicago for some reason, you know, like if, if it's so, so that your prospect is, wow, this is like really speaking to me. And there are some objective features. Somehow you also solve their problems better. The big Shopify is maybe ignoring them. And then, you know, so that's one. Uh, and when it comes to crowdfunding platforms, so, okay, two considerations. If it's a B2B platform, it's very hard to raise on a Kickstarter-style campaign because the fundamental concept is that people need to get what you're selling. Like, uh, that's why it's mostly B2C products. People understand, oh, it's a new type of shampoo, oh, I need that. Whereas it's like, oh, this is like revenue-based financing on like APR 4.7, your average Joe is like What? How is this useful? Who wants that shit? Yeah. So, so that's, so it's very hard to do fundraising for, for B2B and crowdfunding platforms. Two, it's, it's a signal of desperation. If you ever wanna get VC money, a lot of VCs will not touch you ever after you have done a crowdfunding campaign. So it's a trade-off, you know, if, if you wanna do institutional VC. Fundraising later, it will make your loan life more difficult. And also, if you are successful, and I have a friend who on The Republic, it's one of the crowdfunding platforms, raised a million dollars and then got a bunch, because the people who invest money in you are total idiots. Most of them have no fucking clue. And so Hundreds of people started emailing the CEO like, hey, when, when am I, am I getting my dividends? And, uh, when's the next board meeting? I want to show up. You know, like, you will deal with hundreds of idiots who have no idea of how any of this works. And like, do you want to deal with that? Maybe, maybe not.

Yeah, that's a very— I never thought about that. We actually have a lot of FI companies have gone through a public, we should probably be trying to ask them how that went. They've been successful at it, but how it impacted their subsequent rounds. Um, here's another— let's do 2 more questions and then be respectful of your time. But the, uh, I hope I say the same— Trey Christensen from Lifeline was saying, how do you discover in a company who the most profitable and least profitable customers are?

The most profitable customers are the ones that they are aggressively going after. So if it's a large B2B company and they have a, you know, they have a mega menu and there's like a tab for solutions and then that by industry and like they have tailored their website for their most, uh, their, their ICPs. Somebody asked, what's an ICP? Ideal customer profile. Company that looks like their ideal customer that they would want to have. So they will spell out who their buyer is. And if you go after those industries and those segments, um, that's taking them on. You're directly competing with, with them. Now, if, if, if they're only showing enterprise logos and they're showing like they talk about enterprise solutions, it is clear that SMB is not who they give a fuck about. So you can go for SMBs and they will not fight you. Somebody else will though.

Yeah, not really a question, but a good shout out to Alex Hobbs from Atlas CSR was voted 10 times. He said, "Peep, Sir Pep, this was the most engaging webinar I've watched in a long time. Thanks so much for the injection of energy this Monday morning." So kudos to you. We got up to 142. We're at about 120 people right now. I'm just going to try to find the last Next question here. I like this one. It's very relevant. So any thoughts on the lean process for B2B? It's been having a hard time understanding how many early user pilots I need to iterate well enough, and how have you been iterating in B2B? I think that's a very relevant question.

Is this written down here somewhere?

It's somewhere. Yeah, it was somewhere in the chat. I just—

oh, in the chat?

Yeah, no, not everyone had pulled up the Q&A. Do you want to read it again?

Yeah, please read it again.

So, any thoughts in the lean process for B2B? Been having a hard time understanding how many early stage pilots I need to use to iterate on each of them, and how, how have you gone about iterating in B2B? So I guess iterations in B2B and—

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, also with Wynter, I have pivoted once. Uh, I mean, it's, it's a hard— so you build something, you put it in front of certain customers, and ideally you have used, uh, you know, lean startup and customer development process that you build something for certain users that you have talked to. So you're not first building and then seeing who wants to buy this, right? You're building it for somebody already. Uh, but still, even with the best planning, you won't know if it's going to have traction. So what happened with me with Wynter, like, I launched this product in 2020 as a, as copy testing, and I thought my target audience is consumer companies like e-commerce. Um, and And it was like optimize your e-commerce copy type of a two-message setting e-commerce product pages. And after trying to sell this, I learned that the e-commerce product marketers don't really give a shit about copy. It was very hard to sell. The product wasn't sticky. They tried, it didn't come back. It was like, it was just not working. In my year one in business, I mean, it was actually six months. we made like $87,000, uh, which was like, I mean, it was in, and it was very hard. It was like, you know, some months, first months we did like $10,000 in revenue, which is like very little. Uh, and it was clear that this is extreme, this is not going, uh, the way I'm wanting. We need to change something up. And, and, uh, I was convinced of the value of optimizing or message testing. And so right from the get-go, we started receiving inquiries from B2B companies that, hey, can you do— I want to do message testing with CFOs or CMOs or product managers. And we're like, well, we don't have these people because we're like B2C focused. But then it was like, well, B2B companies are showing interest. Uh, and so we, we interviewed some, we learned that there are some holes in the market where B2B companies currently can't do any message testing. And we pivoted the whole— and we ran, uh, small-scale tests, uh, at first, and then we pivoted the whole company to repeat to be— and then Winter took off, uh, in terms of growth. So in terms of when to iterate, I mean, as much and as fast as possible. The, the key thing is to, to learn as fast as, as cheaply as possible. Also, when we're building Winter, the product Everything we did was no code. We simulated the functionality with Typeform and Webflow and did all the work behind the scenes manually, uh, while presenting this as a software. We just said, oh, results will take whatever, 48 hours to come in, and we did it manually just to test the concept. Uh, and because if you just build software first and see if it, if it will sell is building software is extremely expensive. It takes a long, long, long time. And if they don't want it, if you built the wrong thing, it's very expensive. It's extremely expensive. So yeah, so I would say, you know, set yourself an internal bar of what is good in terms of revenue. Uh, make all your iteration and pivot decisions based on revenue and growth.

Awesome. Yeah, that's a great piece of advice. We preach that a lot at FYI from ideation to validation and going about using no-code tools to make sure you get those feedback loops going and stuff. But thank you so much. This has been great. I wanna be respectful of your time on this holiday. We're over 1 hour, 15 minutes. You know, everyone, like I think everyone's very grateful just 'cause I know you geek out on numbers. We had 260 people, right? Register, we had 146 show up. You know, that's like a very high retention. That's one of the highest retention rates we've added at 5 for a webinar like this. And we did very minimum advertising. So your name has clout. Thank you so much.

Yeah. My pleasure, guys.

Yeah. We're both gonna hop off. Everyone, there's gonna be virtual tables available. Please network, talk to each other. Some of the team members from FI will also be there if you need to. But once again, everyone show some love to Pep. Yes, there will be recording. We'll send this out. We'll throw in Pep's social handles so you can follow him as well. Please do. He's amazing. You'll learn a bunch of cool new things. All right, with that being said, take care of everyone. Enjoy the rest of your day.

All right, see you guys. Bye.