Mindstorm Ep. 5: Founder Well-being, with special guest Ben Chong

Hi, my name is Adeo Ressi. I'm CEO of The Founder Institute. I'm joined here by my good friend Benjamin Chong. He's a partner at Right Click Capital, among many other things, leads our program in Australia. We're on Mindstorm, a podcast about mindful and awake entrepreneurship, and today we're going to be talking about well-being and what a founder or entrepreneur who's looking to do a planetary intervention or a big idea needs to accomplish in order to have a balanced and healthy life and really pursue meaning in the world without killing themselves and people around them. So Ben, I saw you were quoted in a report about well-being that came out of Australia, and I was just reading it. And so maybe, how did you come to get interviewed? Interested in the topic of wellbeing.

Hello, Adaele. It's lovely to be here. Lovely to be here in Silicon Valley. Last year, one of my good friends, Amanda Price, who is the head of high-growth ventures at KPMG, ran a survey, a survey of Australian founders, and it was quite an extensive survey to better understand and identify what were some of the key drivers of behaviour. And one of the topic areas was founder wellbeing. What were founders and what are founders doing around their physical health? Are they exercising? Are they getting out on the bike or running from time to time? How are founders looking after perhaps their sleeping lives? Are they sleeping at ridiculous hours and waking at the crack of dawn? And also, what type of support do they have for their mind, for their mindfulness? And I thought the results were very interesting.

I'm just pulling up the report right now. I loaded it in front of me. You know, one of the interesting things that I noticed was, well, you know, it's a bit of a mixed bag. And I'm going to throw out that the first thing is that it doesn't paint that great of a picture for entrepreneurs and mindfulness and mental health and well-being. It's sort of generally negative, like very stressed out, etc. But I remember reading 33% of the entrepreneurs surveyed, which were, I presume, thousands of entrepreneurs, actually engaged in some mindfulness techniques. But then, you know, one of the other things that came out of it is 58% relax for less than 1 hour a day, which to me is like, that is crazy. And then, you know, how they spend it, that was pretty interesting, you know, how they spent their time dealing with the stress of their daily life. Number 1 was with family and friends at 74%. Number 2 was sports and exercise at 71%. And then it's kind of off a cliff. Number 3 is going out to dinner at 50%. If they think dinner is a mindfulness exercise to reduce stress, I think we have a lot of work to do with the well-being of founders. Like, what do you do to relax? Well, you know, Eat dinner, sleep occasionally, not too much.

And I think when these results came out, it was a kind of a wake-up moment for me because I know that as an investor, we have pressure on us from our investors who were institutional, institutional investors who are every quarter, what's my report? What's my return? What's my NTA? So we have to report back to them. And of course we, We find founders who are growing their businesses quickly. And is it any wonder for them to grow their businesses quickly apart from money from us? They need to at least feel that they are working their backside off to expand into a new market, to bring out a new product or to improve the new release of their next product. So for me, it was a real wake-up call. Ben, what are you doing to help the founders that you work closely with? What is our firm at Right Click Capital doing to help the founders we invest in to think not only about the short term, but the short term in light of the long term?

Right. Because if they're not taking care of themselves, if they don't have self-care, if they're not, so, you know, we just had a big discussion about this earlier today and it's sort of, if you look at well-being and you break it down in terms of what, how it affects founders, you have broadly speaking well-being, which could be things like dealing with stress and pressure, keeping the personal life in balance and ensuring a routine of self-care, brushing your teeth, you know, eating properly, exercising, things like that. And that those are like sort of 3 big buckets under well-being. But you also have, when you look at the founder mentality, and, and is, is a growth mindset, because, you know, you could be taking care of yourself, blah blah blah blah blah, but then not caring about expanding the business or not able to expand the business. So a growth mindset for me is how does a founder think big about an opportunity How do they overcome their own limiting beliefs about what they can do, what can be done in the world? And, you know, a lot of founders need to quote-unquote fake it until they make it, and that creates a sense of an imposter syndrome.

Yes.

And so those are all parts for me of the growth mindset, you know, thinking big enough, overcoming the limiting beliefs, and overcoming any sense of imposter syndrome.

And I think the big thing about the growth mindset is while an investor often is focused on how is the business growing, has the MRR increased from the previous month, is ARR going the direction it ought to be going, how about the growth of the individual, the growth of the founder? Because if we love talking about founders this, founders that, Well, are founders adopting this growth mindset where they're growing and learning themselves? And my experience has been, as a founder, the times where I have grown is where I have faced some kind of setback or trauma. And it's also been the occasions where I've taken time out. So being able to go away even for a long weekend or even for a week where the phone is turned off, the computer Wi-Fi doesn't work, isn't that wonderful? And I think the growth mindset for the founder is to have, I think, a level of awareness, self-awareness, and then being open to getting feedback, getting help, And as you said before, knowing perhaps where some of their limitations are, because we are not like, it's impossible for us to be amazing at everything. Even in the Olympics, it's unlikely that someone who wins gold on the track will also win gold in the swimming pool. It's just crazy.

So, well, you know, let's talk about, you brought up a couple of things. I love this concept of emotional accountability, right? You talk about as an investor, you have these portfolio companies and they're, um, you want to feel more responsible not only for their metric growth but their personal growth, or at least help them with in, in both areas as you can, right? You're not necessarily a professional in the latter, but you can be supportive. And so I love that idea of emotional accountability. And I think that's an idea that we have to start circulating for investors and founders, that it's, hey, you've got your fiduciary accountability, but you also have your emotional accountability. And it's not just the accountability of you to yourself, it's also you to your team and even you to your vendors, partners, etc. Because, you know, if Apple is pushing their vendors to the point where people are committing suicide, that's not great either, right? This can't just be limited to the walls of your office if you're working with people outside. Well, I want, so the other thing you brought up that I want to more drill into is, you know, you were mentioning like if a founder realizes they need help, but that's, and then, you know, how do you know you need help? And then how do you ask for help, right? Cause like, I think I don't have an answer, right? Like, how do you know you need help? And then how do you ask for help?

I think they're very, very interesting questions and we're all a bit different. So some of us, maybe I'm speaking for myself now, will only call out for help when I'm in deep distress. Whereas those who know me well can see the early signs. Of my distress or my lack of performance or whatever it is that I'm doing and are able to come to the aid. So I do wonder whether it is as founders building this sense of awareness of when you are a little bit out of control. I love skiing, Adeo, and I love skiing the slopes of North America as well as Japan and and other places. And I like going fast, but I know there are times where I'm a little bit on the edge of being out of control. And I don't like that. And I think when my skis are going a bit fast and I've got that chattering feeling and I'm being out of control, that's when I know I need to perhaps turn a bit more to get back into the groove. And into control. And I wonder whether that same sign or the same signal is one that founders need to be aware of. They need to listen for these signs. Is it, is it they're not returning calls of particular people? Is it they're avoiding certain behaviors or certain stimuli? Is that a sign that they are perhaps towards or getting close to being out of control and then need to perhaps pull the chain or ring the bell to get some help.

Well, let's talk about what the pull the chain and ring the bell is, but I want to stick with this. I think that's a beautiful concept, Ben. Let's zero in on that for a moment. If you look back at your history as a person, regardless entrepreneurship, career, leave all that aside, and you think, okay, what was an extremely stressful period of time? Okay, how did I behave in that time? Like, what were the things that I was doing? And then you say, okay, um, what was a really good period of time where things were running really smoothly? What were the things that I was doing then? Um, you should have— that's a great way of saying like, okay, so I'll tell you When I'm in periods of pretty big dramatic change, I drink a lot, like a lot, a lot. And you and I were drinking last night, but that's a little bit different.

But, you know, we didn't drink that much.

Yeah, but I drink a lot. And then, you know, I might start, you know, smoking cigarettes or something. I generally develop these bad habits and it's like a stress coping, drink a lot of coffee, drink a lot of alcohol, possibly smoke cigarettes here and there. You know, I'm not— I don't sleep very much, even less than I do now. And, you know, I also find myself then in order to counteract, I've been watching some bad extra amounts of bad TV. And so I could probably list out these things, right? And then I don't even need to be conscious that I need help. I just need to be conscious of like, oh God, I'm drinking like a lot. And what am I doing with this cigarette? I'm like, uh-oh, something's wrong. Like, you know, and then you're like, woo, woo, pull away, pull away. And then the question is, so if I can identify the behavior, I might not even know what I need help with, right? But it's a sign that I need help. So then the next question is, What do you do?

I think it is important as a founder to develop good friends, sometimes within the business, but quite possibly outside of the business that you can have conversations with. For me—

Well, some of the problems are not business related, like you could, your business could be going really well and then your family life suffers because you're working too hard and then you start suffering because of family life. Problems. And, you know, I'm a divorced founder and, you know, there's no question that the business affected the divorce. Maybe not 100%, but like a big chunk of it for sure. 60, 70% was business related, meaning that like the business took a lot of my time.

Definitely. And that's why I think it is important to have people who know you in the work or in the business context. That's really important. As well as people who know you and love you outside of the business context. If you don't have friends who are just the, you know, what I would call footy friends that I go and see the rugby or the football with, and that's all we talk about, right? The cricket or the rugby or whatever sporting game or the tennis, like they're friends who see a different part of me. And I think that is so important for us as founders. It's wonderful for me to talk about CAC and LTV and all sorts of wonderful metrics with my business friends, but to have some other friendship group where I'm talking about art or I'm talking about music or I'm talking about some kind of theater, that's wonderful for me and it's an escape for me.

So you want to have both a personal watchdog friend, if you will, and a business watchdog friend. And that's, that's, that's at least, right?

Yeah.

Um, and possibly more than one, but at least one in each big bucket. I would agree with that. Is there, you know, it could be the, the problem you have with family being in that role is that they're the ones usually suffering. They're not able to communicate with you. It's like, "Hi, I'm suffering." It's like, "What? Huh?" So I think having someone who's not a direct family member in the friend bucket and having someone who's close to you in some manner or other in the business bucket, I think is important. And then, If you spot these bad behaviors, what do you do then? Do you go to coffee with, like, do you set a meeting up? Do you send an email? Like, what do you think the how do you notify them that you might be in trouble?

For me, I would say the most value that I add as an investor to my portfolio companies is outside of the boardroom. Of course we have great conversations.

But how do they get to you and say, hey, Ben, you know, I've had some— I'm exhibiting some bad habits. I think I might be stressed out or under too much pressure, you know, whatever. Like, that might be very vulnerable for a CEO to say to you. What do you think is the best way for a CEO to broach this? That's comfortable for the CEO, comfortable for you and opens the door?

Oh, for me, it's having a call and then meeting up. I think nothing beats having a coffee or a casual cocktail or drink away from the office, away from the scene, if you like. A good cry.

Yeah.

To talk. I think it's so important to do that.

But now they're talking about things that are sensitive. Right? So it's like, and they don't want to look bad in front of you. So what does someone say?

Look, what I say to founders is that of course I understand the need to sometimes have the veneer, to have the polish, to have the beautiful wrapper, but making a sausage is a little bit messy when you go to the factory. And it's okay because good investors will have seen how the sausage is made.

Yeah. Many times over. Yeah.

So I don't think you need to be shy or somehow shameful about that. It's about acknowledging. Yeah. Acknowledging whatever the issue is, being honest and then working out how do you, get through this situation.

Okay, so we covered well-being, we covered growth mindset, we covered emotional accountability, we discussed having a friend that's your watchdog, emergency contact if you will, a business mentor, investor, or the other doing that on the business side as well, and identifying traits that happen in times of stress, using that as a signal to reach out Setting up a call, meeting in person. I think these are all really amazing suggestions that can help a lot of founders go from A to B. So with that said, what are any closing thoughts you have on well-being? I'll add a small one, and that is that when it's at every phase of launching a company, you're going to get outside your comfort zone and you're going to run into some sort of issue. And it's likely, it's almost certain that other founders will have experienced exactly what you did. And so another recommendation that I would have besides having an emergency contact, and so to speak, in the business and the friend bucket, is to have a group of other entrepreneurs that you associate with either on an email list or Facebook group or something, some way that you stay in touch and you make a commitment to be vulnerable about these things because it will certainly help you and then someone else may be even experiencing the same thing at the same time and that will create a great deal of camaraderie and help calm and bring you into balance with some of these challenges. And any closing thoughts from you?

Look, I agree with you in that. I meet up regularly with a bunch of business buddies and we do exactly that. We share not only the highs, but we share the lows. And I think when we share some of those lows, we realize, wow, not always what it seems on the outside, but through those lows we're able to share with one another how we've gotten through that. And I think being able to benefit from the wisdom of others is so important and it does mean that when we celebrate the highs, they're really, really high because we've got to know the backstory of each other in that time.

Yeah, that is, and I've done the same. So thank you, Ben, for being our guest and what great insights on wellbeing of a founder's mental health and and lifestyle. Hopefully we're gonna help a lot of founders who listen to this live a more productive and more balanced life as they pursue their dreams.

Thank you very much, Adair.