Scaling a Company With a Diversity-First Culture, with Hubspot

Hello everyone, welcome, welcome to our amazing event we have today. Today you're here to join us for a conversation about scaling a company with a diversity-first culture. I'm so excited to have so many people here joining us. I can see you sort of joining in the virtual room, if you will. Please tell us where you're calling in from today. I'm joining from the Bay Area, from California. And I am Rachel Shepherd. I'm the Director of Global Marketing at Founder Institute and the co-creator of the Female Founder Initiative. The Founder Institute is the world's largest pre-seed startup accelerator, having helped launch over 4,000 companies across 185 cities and 75+ countries. If you're interested in learning more about Founder Institute, we're currently enrolling across 6 continents. And you can see the full list of enrolling cities at fi.co/enrolling. But you're not here to hear from me today. You're here to hear from our amazing speakers. And so I'm super excited that our two wonderful speakers have joined us and generously provided their time to share their experience and thoughts on building a company with a diversity-first culture. And of course, to answer any questions you might have, because I'm sure we have a lot of founders in the audience today. Again, please tell us where you're calling in from. I see some from New York City, London, Canada. Welcome, welcome. Thanks so much for joining us. So first, I want to introduce Wobi Ofori. He's the CEO at 360 Approach. He's the purveyor of perspective and the director of Founder Institute Houston. Wobi, welcome.

Thank you, Rachel. Good morning.

Good morning. Awesome. And then we also have with us Kim Walsh, Global Vice President of Startup and Growth Partnerships at HubSpot. Welcome, Kim.

Thanks, Rachel. Happy to be here. Good afternoon from the East Coast.

Yes, that's right. Kim's joining us from the East Coast.

And Wobi, you're joining us today from, from Houston, Texas, in the great state of— so both Kim and I are visiting Rachel from the future.

That's right. That is right. And so are a lot of other people on the call today. So welcome, everyone. Thanks for joining us from all over the world. We're here to have an amazing discussion about what it means to build a diversity-first culture and how you can go about doing that as a startup founder. So without further ado, we're just going to jump right into some questions. But if you have questions for Kim or Wobie, please be sure to put them in the chat. We have a team on the call with us today from Founder Institute who's going to be sort of giving me your questions and making sure we're able to weave that into the conversation. So let's get started with our first question. So we'll kick it off with you, Wobie. How can diversity and inclusion be an asset to scaling startups in your experience?

It's an asset because sometimes, especially as a startup, you're very, very focused usually on whatever it is that you're doing, that bringing that idea to life. And it's a, it's a huge endeavor and a huge drain on bandwidth and resources, all focusing usually on, on product, finding product market fit, you know, customers, etc., etc. But really, it's the it's the people that you have. So it's on the outsides of your customers, and behind you, it may be your investors, but with you, side by side with you, it's your team. And so sometimes it's easy to get into sort of an echo chamber or get tunnel vision just on the development of the product. And hopefully, if you're really good, you're also extremely focused on the, on the customer, but really being also focused on the team is very, very important. So having a diverse perspective or diverse perspectives on the team is very important. One of the things that I want to emphasize, though, Rachel, is that, you know, I hear a lot of people talking about diversity, and I think sometimes they mistake the value proposition of diversity with just differentiation. And diversity is when you have people coming from different points of view, different backgrounds, but who are converging on the same initiative, on the same goal, or on the same— fulfilling the same mission or idea. That's when you really have the power of diversity. If you don't, if you're not all, you know, pulling in the same direction or going toward the same place, then you just wind up having division. So it's important, I think, to get that right.

Absolutely. And I think, you know, your point about teams is so crucial, right? Especially when you're working really hard and through this time, this time we've all just gone through, and a lot of companies have made pivots. I can't say how grateful I am to work with the people I do at Founder Institute and to be able to have them as the people we, you know, fought through a pivoting time for. And to have a diversity of perspectives is also super crucial and really kind of redefining what that is, is, and defining what it is for your company is really important as well.

Yeah.

Kim, do you have anything to add on how can diversity and inclusion be an asset for scaling startups?

Sure. I mean, first of all, I would just like to say I'm not an expert, but I'm a work in progress and I'm learning and I continue to learn and evolve over time. I think that's what's so great about building and trying to build this diversity and inclusion and belonging in your company from day one is because it is such an asset. And I believe in the data. I believe that 66% of, like, 66% of teams and companies perform, you know, 66% faster and better when you do have a broad, diverse set of people on the team, right? And in terms of a startup, like, you know, just look around when you're starting your company. Is— do we all look the same? Do we all come from the same backgrounds? Are we bringing something additive? You have the ability to do that from day one. So, I believe in the data and I believe that it is an asset and that we just have to be a work in progress, be open to learning and be open to thinking about a better way to do it and a better way to build a company than history has shown us that we have all built companies before. So I think there's a new world coming that hopefully, I'm excited to be a part of it. I believe in the data and just believe in getting better.

Yes, and Kim brought up a great point. You know, we're not even, you know, myself and us at Founder Institute, we're not necessarily coming, you know, from the position of leadership, but of learning in this situation. Right. And we're really trying to always look at our team and see how can we do better and continue to bring in new perspectives, new backgrounds, from a variety of different standpoints in terms of diversity, and then further and make sure to include those people and everybody we bring on, on our team and make sure they're a part of the decision-making process and the strategies as well. And so we've got a great question from the audience. Alex asks, how do you encourage diversity while mitigating bias from your recruitment teams if recruitment teams are not diverse in nature? Kim, do you want to kick us off with this one?

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. Again, a little bit of a point of view here is I think if if you're noticing or if you're acknowledging that, you know, everyone has bias, right? We all do. We're just born naturally that way. And as we think about it in terms of recruiting, you know, I'm a big fan of setting goals. You know, what does a goal look like in terms of who do we want in our candidate pipeline? And, you know, start there. And I think in terms of like having a meeting with looking inwards first around what do we look like today? What do we look like tomorrow? How are we all going to make our best effort, know that we have bias, acknowledge it, and try and remove it on a day-to-day basis? And recruiting often is the top of that funnel, the top of who you're bringing in on a day-to-day basis, you know, and think differently about it. Maybe you're recruiting from university campuses and that typically brings in a specific type of person. Look at different university campuses, look at state schools, look at other, you know, different campuses that you haven't really looked at before. I think, you know, what I said before is what I strongly believe today is there's a new way to look at things. If you believe that you're a work in progress, you believe your company is a work in progress, you believe your recruiting team is a work in progress. So I think the conversation just at its fundamental level needs to shift and needs to be different. So I would say acknowledgement, looking inwards. And also, if you, if you are building that type of company where you could set a goal around what does our candidate pipeline look like and where we want to sort of attract talent from, that could be a helpful way to look at it.

Absolutely. Wobie, do you have some thoughts to add there as well?

Yeah, I agree with that. I think one of the challenges is, is that I think sometimes we try to come up with what sounds like the right solutions, like, okay, we're going to eliminate bias. I personally don't believe that's possible. I think that there's a degree of bias. It's, it's part of how we assimilate and are able to process data very quickly and make decisions. The question though is, how is that bias serving you, or is it working against you in relation to where you desire to go? And I think there's a need to be much more intentional about where do we desire to go and what type of organization do we desire to be. And now let's, let's make sure that whatever is there, whether it be intrinsic biases or be things that we're intentionally putting in our processes, are steering us toward that. For example, I, I would challenge some organizations to perhaps think of this a little bit differently and say, Maybe we don't necessarily need to be as much looking for diversity as much as we need to be challenging ourselves on what does fit mean. And so where we are thinking, oh, maybe, you know, unconsciously or consciously, we're thinking, okay, this is what fit means. And so therefore your biases are going to steer you toward replicating this image of fit. Or perhaps it's, well, maybe fit doesn't mean that or doesn't need to mean that. Let's challenge our notions internally as to what it means for fit. Get back to what is, I believe, the lowest common denominator, which is the— in corporate culture or in business culture, which in your organization should be what's the most base or common thing that everybody believes. And so you start from there and you build up from there and extend out. And then you say, okay, well, let's challenge ourselves to find people who believe that and who are going in similar areas, even if they are not necessarily what we previously thought that such people should look like or what they should sound like. You know, we— and I would add to that, perhaps challenging the notion of first impressions. I think sometimes this is also what puts us on the wrong footing, where we allow first impressions to weigh too heavily in our decision-making. So we see somebody's image on a Zoom call like this or on LinkedIn, and we come up with an idea of what we think that that person is supposed to be like. And, you know, it's natural. But we also have the ability to override that and say, well, let me— Let's go beyond that. Let's go beyond just what, whatever comes up in first impression. Let's test it and let's put out there and test for, again, what we really want. And challenge yourself to be honest about what is it you really want.

Awesome. I love that. And I think this gives people a lot to think about here, especially as you talk about, you know, switching gears a little bit from diversity in, I think, a way a lot of people talk about it to making sure that we're, seeking a diversity of perspective in how we're looking to achieve our company's goals, right? Which I think can open up the conversation even further and make it much more powerful and move it into the fabric of the company, which is really where you want it to be prior to funding, for example. And so, when should startups— because this is a question I saw recently— when should startups start thinking about diversity and inclusion, and what steps can they take today? So kind of going along that same thread that you were touching upon, Wobie, what do you think about that question?

I think you start from day one. And it's, again, if you look at it a little bit differently and not necessarily thinking about it specifically as diversity inclusion or D&I, like, oh, I have to have a D&I person, for example, or let me think about it that way. Again, it's more think about what what would— when we're talking about diversity, we have to also say, do we just want diversity, or do we want what diversity brings? And I think it's really we want what diversity brings. Now, of course, you have to have diversity in order to get that. But I think from jump street, an organization and its founders need to be thinking about what type of company do we want to, to build here and, and start putting that in place from day one. And again, it's, it's, it's taking this intentionality about that within your culture, within your team building, the same way you're putting intentionality into product building, the same way you're putting intentionality into your marketing and into your sales efforts.

Absolutely. And Kim, do you have any thoughts on this as well in terms of timing when founders should start to, to consider diversity and inclusion as part of their building strategy?

Yeah, I mean, I just wholeheartedly believe with everything, I agree with everything Wobbi said. I would say, you know, it's got to be day one, day zero, you know, it's got to be when you're thinking about creating this company, what type of company do you want to create? And to Wobbi's point, you know, a question, you know, so many people speak about the word diversity. I think you could look at it a couple different ways in terms of saying like what type of company do we want to build that people feel welcomed to bring their authentic self, to bring who they really are to our company? What is that going to look like? What is that going to sound like? What is that going to feel like? Right? Like, that's something that if you are like an engineer by nature, it's pretty touchy-feely and you have to kind of, you have to go there, right? You have to sort of think about that. Um, because to build a successful company, you need to attract talent and you need to attract a lot of different types of talent. And that's what I believe, that's my point of view. And I think companies today, if you're thinking like, well, how do I do that? And where do I start? What's the good news about today? I know we're all a little Zoom fatigued and webinar fatigued, but if you really are a founder and you're scratching your head, be curious, take a class, join a webinar, learn about, you know, from people out there who have done it. What does it look like? What does it sound like? And be a student. I think you just have to do it on day one because again, you'll set your company up for growing a lot faster. You know, Brian and Dharmesh, HubSpot's two co-founders, it's something that when HubSpot started in 2006, they, you know, they wish they would have thought about it sooner. And that's something we're pretty open about. You know, I'm a really happy employee of the company, and I know that, you know, we've just tried to do a better job over time, but learn from people that are really successful founders that wish they would have done it sooner. So that's what I would probably say there.

You know, another thing I would say to that is one of the great— a strategy that actually has worked for me is, you know, there's this principle or, I don't know, proverb that a good way to learn something is to teach it. And I think getting out there for that young founder to actually dedicate a certain amount of time to actually going out to into your ecosystem, find your local SDO and volunteer to help out as a mentor or, you know, just in some capacity is going to expose you to a lot of people who you might not normally be exposed to. And I think this is one of the challenges that we have with conversations about diversity and inclusion in the modern workplace is because people don't realize, and this is particularly true in tech, that sometimes we've inadvertently created too narrow a setting or a scope for where these people might be and the type of things that you might hear that trigger, oh, this is the sort of person I'm looking for. So we've— and it's part of de-risking, something I call social de-risking. Be risking, where you say, okay, I'm, I'm always looking in a certain sort of area because I know that these people are the type of people that we need, you know, type of people who code, the type of people who, who do this, they have a certain language, but there are people who have similar skill sets, but they just don't necessarily have them in that context. So they don't use the same language, they don't apply them the same way. And I think that if we would actually think more, even at the startup level of more investment, not necessarily talking about capital, but I'm talking about time, I'm talking about attention into, let me go and reach out and go and see about helping some other people. And as I do that, I get exposed to people say, man, that person's doing something really, really interesting. Hey, maybe you might want to come and join my company, or maybe you know other people who are impressive like yourself. 'Cause it's hard to find impressive people. And if you do, hey, do you know somebody else who's impressive? And it goes beyond just, again, that kind of narrow slot that sometimes we put ourselves in.

I love that. And Shay actually asked a related question where she was talking about, so we've talked about, you know, sort of being intentional about taking your time and making sure you're going outside of your own bubble, if you will, in a variety of capacities. And one way to do that is right now, even by location, right? So attending different startup weeks in different cities, for example, is a great place to start, among many other things you guys both just suggested. But in addition to that, Shay wants to know, do you have any tools? So any recommendations for, you know, that kind of moving away from that social de-risking, as you mentioned, Wobie? Any ideas there?

You know, it's a challenge. It's a challenge for everybody because you have to be willing to be a little uncomfortable. You have to be willing to take a little bit more risk that, you know, at least people think that they have the ability to predict how people are going to act, and usually they're a little bit— they're overestimating their ability to actually predict how people are going to act. So go out there and be a little bit uncomfortable. You know, there's something Rachel and I were talking the other day. I said, you know, here's this interesting challenge. That I've not actually done it yet, but I have thought about it and said, I think I would put this challenge out there. So let's say I have a position open, right? And I say, okay, I need to find a really good person for this position. And I've scoped it out and, and I know what, what I want. And I go and I interview 100 people. And out of those 100 people, 95 of them are all sort of your stereotypical person that you would find in here. Maybe it's not you know, somebody who is Black or brown or from another, from, you know, different, different place or different point of view, but it's, you know, kind of your stereotypical person who normally fits this, this bill, whatever that is. If you find the person and they're impressive, I would say, you know, I'd say find 3 of them, and out of that 100, and man, they're really impressive, but they're just all the same. What I would do is I would say this: Go and say to all three of them, okay, listen, I find you very impressive and I think I want to offer you a job, but this is what I want you to do. I want you to go out and find somebody else who's just as impressive as you, but doesn't look like you and doesn't come from where you come from. And if you can find that person and I'm just as impressed, I'll hire the both of you. And I think that there are some kind of creative ways that we can, we can start to problem solve this. And what that does too is it helps so into that culture, I don't want to be the only person looking out for this because I can't be the only person looking out for this. I want all of my people to be thinking this way and looking for where are the other people that are impressive, and we need to look over the hedges that we have built for ourselves to go and find those people.

To Gobi's challenge, one— sorry, Rachel— one thing is, uh, you know, we talk a lot about traditional referral programs. You know, you're growing a— you're a founder of a fast-growing startup, you put in a referral program in place. Like, what we challenge is like, put another bullet point, uh, in your referral program that says, you know, you have to refer someone that's completely different, uh, than you. Because so oftentimes current referral programs or referral programs that we've implemented in the past, uh, you know, just by nature refer a lot of sameness, right? So, you know, that's just something intentionally doing a little bit differently.

Exactly, exactly. It's that intentionality instead of just waiting to see if it happens, say, randomly or happenstantially. You say, no, I want you to intentionally do that. And you also distribute the burden of creating a diverse workforce amongst your workforce. It's not going to work if it's only coming just from one area. So if you're, if you're a larger organization like HubSpot, if it's just HR saying it, it's not going to go in, right? If it's even just the CEO saying it, who's also the Chief Cultural Officer, that's great. But it's again, your culture, your people have to be the embodiment of that culture. Unless everybody is, you know, pulling the same way, you're not going to get there. And so to challenge people to actually figure out how to help solve that problem and pushing that actually even to the people who are currently in the organization, I think that you might be surprised sometimes to find out some of the things that they actually can and might be willing to do if they were allowed, and this is partially to Kim's point, if they were allowed to take that risk. And sometimes that's one of the things. They just, they don't know that that risk is going to be rewarded. You know, if I bring this person and they, they're not quite what we normally see, but I, I see the talent in them, I think that we can get them there. You know, maybe we should give them a shot.

Absolutely. And I love that challenge as well because I think that there is, um, this level of intentionally expanding that person's network, um, and encouraging them to do so. And networking plays such a large role in, you know, startups in general and growing businesses. And the more you diversify your network, the— there are exponential benefits every time that that happens, right? Because every time you have somebody ask you, do you know anyone good fit for this job, etc., it really expands who you look to and, you know, where, where you're able to bring people in and include them in your network, which is really powerful.

And you know, there's— I'm sorry, there's another thing I wanted to add too that just came to my mind, but I think it's really important. And I think that one of the challenges that we have when it comes to diversity in the workplace is extreme disparities in education and training. And I think that the more that companies can take this on of themselves, like, you know, Google showing, I think, tremendous leadership in this program that they've just announced, whatever it was, a month or 6 weeks ago. I think that will go a long way to helping to bridge those gaps because again, there are a lot of very talented people in areas that don't normally get a lot of light of day, but they may not have the requisite training to be ready right off the bat. But if we would go and make that investment in them in very concentrated forms, I think that in at least in companies, can be done pretty efficiently and pretty cost-effectively, I think we'd build up a whole new crop of very well-trained, well-prepared, highly talented people who came from places that were previously ignored because, oh, well, you didn't have this experience or you didn't have that training. We could fix that and do so, I think, pretty effectively. And I think that the more emphasis is put on that, I think we'll see results even faster. Kim, what do you think about that? I mean, you're in a bigger organization.

I mean, you're hitting on a key thing in terms of one of the, my point of view, I share it exactly wholeheartedly, which is I think companies today, you know, if you're founders out there, you have an obligation to learn, to educate yourself, and then think about how am I going to uplevel, upscale, up-educate my team because, you know, today we're— how are we going to be virtual leaders? How are we going to, you know, do things differently in this world that we're living in today? And companies have to take on the responsibility of making sure that, you know, your employees have an avenue to learn about these topics, about how to be a better leader, about what you know, diversity means, what inclusion means, what creating an environment that people feel welcome looks like, feels like. Like, so many of us are searching for how do we do it. In today's world, companies, you know, can feel overwhelming. Well, overwhelming, I think, if you're a startup founder thinking about it. But I think you have to think about it. Like, am I going to take the responsibility to educate my organization as it grows? Are we always going to learn? Are we going to have avenues to learn? Are we going to be able to reach out to the right organizations to learn from who recognize that they do it better. So yeah, I mean, I think you're touching on so many things that we just haven't traditionally done well. And I believe that people are really good and I believe that we want to learn. So I think to your point, right, I got really optimistic inside when you said like, we can change it. Like, I think, you know, we can.

Of course. We gotta want it. We have to believe that we can, otherwise what's the point of having this conversation? You know, we're having these conversations because we're trying to put our heads together to actually solve the problem. But you got to believe that the problem can be solved. And I really believe that it can be solved. Now, perhaps it takes longer and it doesn't necessarily always come in the straight line and within the same form that people might want. And that's, I think, where perhaps some expectational management is necessary. But I believe that not only can it be solved, I believe we have been making progress. We have a lot— a long way to go. For sure, we have a long way to go, but we have to, we just have to get to it.

And one thing that you said really stuck with me is, you know, looking outside, what have you done for others? A great mentor of mine once told me, you know, anytime you feel stuck, turn or look around and say like, what have I done for someone else? You know, like that's a key thing that as leaders, if we look at ourselves and we start saying that and we really start living that way and trying to help other people, people as opposed to thinking about ourself, you know, that's a good step forward.

For sure.

Absolutely. And then Camilo has a question in the chat regarding pipeline and a very common question I've heard regarding pipeline of, you know, diversifying for, in this case, programmers. So I'll go ahead and share this with you. It's normally it is significantly more difficult to find and identify women in technology with skills such as programmers. Where is a good place to find women in underrepresented talent in technology?

It's an interesting question. I guess I don't believe it to be true because I think you are— might— I would challenge maybe you're not looking in the right areas, right? Like, I think, you know, maybe I— because I am female, but I have a lot of female friends that are programmers. I know a lot more. I mean, I think some, you know, you could, maybe this is just a tactical idea, just kind of shooting from my hip, so take it with a grain of salt, but, you know, you could look, if you're looking to hire from some schools, you know, some schools are publishing, you know, we have our enrollment in CS, computer science, at, you know, 50/50, right? There's 50% of women that are graduating from whatever Codecademy institution, whatever it is, like there you go, there's the data right in front of you. So, you know, that's just a new little example of like maybe you're not looking in the right area because I know a lot of female programmers.

Yeah, I think it's a challenge because I hear this a lot and what's fascinating is that I oftentimes will hear the female representative saying, I don't know if that exists, and you're maybe not looking in the right area, which I think is probably true. But I think I also feel for, you know, the— what's his name, Danilo— that he's asking, okay, so what area do I look in? Because I do want to do this, but I'm having trouble. And it's a sort of a— it gets to sometimes a bit of a chicken or the egg thing, because Because we don't have more of those people, like let's say female programmers, they tend to be a little bit more dispersed, so it's harder to find them. But they do also, when they're dispersed, I believe you find them in pockets. And so it's probably a good area to go and find— so for example, Kim, female programmer. Okay, find a female programmer or somebody says they know a female programmer, and then go and ask to be introduced to them, and then find out what's in their network, because they probably know others. And then Rachel brought up the issue with these schools. Go to the schools where you have, you know, CS degrees being issued and say, okay, so within your programs, I want to know about the female programmers. And I want to know where those people are getting jobs. And then go and find them, even in their companies. I mean, not necessarily— maybe you'll be able to recruit them away from a company. But maybe you just get introduced to one, or introduce yourself. Let's maybe change that dynamic. Introduce yourself to one who says, I am looking for this. I have found you. Can you introduce me to others like you? And you start that, that chain going. Sometimes it's difficult to, to find the place to start, but when you do, I think oftentimes you'll wind up being surprised as to, wow, how much actually is out there. Again, to Kim's point, it's just we weren't looking in the right place to start with.

Absolutely. And I agree with both of you. And two things, Camila, I would say is Women Who Code is a great organization and a great place to find female programmers, and Alpha.com, which is a platform for women in technology, they have a job board as well. So those are two places I think you could start looking. But, you know, definitely coming to this conversation and posing that question hopefully will send you in the right direction so that you can hire some female programmers on your team.

So, and I would also say that if it's just because it's, say, more difficult or more inconvenient, don't give up on it. You know, keep, keep working at it until you find it, because it is there. And I think that one of the challenges is, is that, you know, some, some, particularly guys, they'll get frustrated and they'll just give up on it and say it should be easier than this. I agree with you, it should be, but it's not. And so go and, go and keep at it because I believe that the reward will be worth it. Not just for your organization, which I believe it would be rewarding for your organization, but again, it starts that it overcomes this inertia that we have of people kind of running into that. I don't know where to find it. I haven't found it. Yeah, it should be able to find it. I've got a lot of other things I gotta do, and I've got 4 other, 5 other candidates who will fit the bill just fine. And why don't I just go in that direction? Again, you know, kind of get back to my challenge. Sure, you can if you really need to. But I would also challenge myself, well, maybe I just try to make space for 2. But I keep going until I accomplish this because I think the reward's worth it.

Yes, absolutely. It'll take time. And to your earlier point, Wobie, it'll take a level of discomfort, right? Because every time you kind of go outside of your own bubble and you go outside of your own network, it may feel a little uncomfortable, but it's worth it in the end. And the impact you can make on your company, which is why we're having this conversation today, and ultimately, you know, even within your industry as a whole can be really great if you just sit with that a little bit and continue to push forward. And so kind of getting along the lines of virtual, I want to talk a little bit with so many tech companies going virtual, what opportunities does this provide for founders to prioritize diversity? And when we're talking about diversity, by the way, and I should have brought this up earlier, but we're talking about everything from neurodiversity, physical abilities, gender, race, LGBTQ+, religion. We're trying to really open up this conversation as much as possible because I see Bruno in the chat is representing an organization that helps bring neurodiversity to companies. So going back to the question, what opportunities does virtual bring to the table? Well, we will start with you on this one.

You have, first of all, some of the barriers that geography plays or presents are eliminated. So a lot of times these, you know, let's say you go to some sort of a meetup or a conference and you'll have people coming from generally certain areas and they're gathered in a certain area and it may not, maybe people from the other area, the quote unquote other side of the tracks, they either don't go to that part of town, they don't want to go to that part of town. There's some sort of barriers geographically to people being able to get, not just being able to, a lot of this again comes back down to comfort and perception, but am I comfortable comfortable enough, you know, mixing in with other people in other parts of town? And do I perceive that it's worth it for me to place myself in that position of risk? And I think that the social— this virtual thing, which the degree to which we're virtual now, I don't believe is going to stick around. But there'll be an element of it there. But we should take advantage of it for now because, again, some of these barriers that were there like geography, now are lowered, which gives, you know, or eliminated entirely, which gives opportunity for us. You know, here we are, you know, you're in Silicon Valley, I'm in the great state of Texas, and Kim is on the East Coast, and we're here without a problem, and that just allows us not only to have a conversation about diversity, but actually allows us to represent something diverse because we don't have that barrier in front of us. So I think that's one of the most obvious advantages. What do you think, Kim?

Yeah, I agree. I'm pretty excited about the opportunity for employees. Flexibility helps so many people. So to your point, take advantage of the flexibility that a virtual world can give you. I think I'm excited about it for what it gives employees. And what it gives employers, I think, is also really interesting. I think it's shifting. And I think as founders, as employers, you have to think about what type of talent are you going— and what type of person are you going to to attract because the options for employees, I think, are going to be more abundant. You know, now you can work for a great company and you do not have to be in their geographic location. You know, that's going to pose a lot of opportunities. It's going to pose some challenges too. But I also think if you were by nature of location in a geographic area that didn't really have a diverse cool is, you know, now you don't really have an— I think at times it was an excuse, right? And I don't think now you have that same excuse. And let's say, let's take a positive spin on that and say, wow, you know, now you have a massive opportunity to think about who you can attract. So I think your company mission, your company values, as startup founders, you have to think about that from day one. As well, because a lot of people are going to be able to work for companies regardless of where they are, which is pretty exciting. The flexibility piece is amazing. I'm a new mom, so flexibility for me— oh yeah, yeah, yeah— for 2 hours a day is pretty amazing.

It's true, it's true. And you know, talking about the car thing, this is another thing that I think that sort of is way outside the purview of, of some people. You know, a lot of times we have the tendency to assume that, uh, when we're looking out there for other people, that other people are starting from the same place that we are and have the same comforts, conveniences, accoutrements, access that we do. And so some simple things like transportation sometimes is overlooked, that, you know, for some people it's a much more difficult thing to move from point A to point B than you are if you happen to be more relatively affluent, have your own car, just jump in and go wherever you want, or you think, "Oh, but everybody can Uber or everybody Lyft." That's not true. There are a lot of people who are in those under- or unrepresented communities who, for them, even basic things like transportation, how do you get to work? How do you get to the places where these things are happening and do so somewhat efficiently? If it takes you an hour, an hour and a half to get to the place and then have to come back, that's not going to work on a regular basis. You're going to be very disincentivized from even getting out there and being exposed to these opportunities. And then we wind up with that, again, that vicious cycle where then on the other side, people say, well, I don't see them. I don't see them, I don't know where they are, so therefore, you know, they must not be there. And so I think, again, that's another one of the opportunities that we have here, whether or not, you know, I don't, again, I don't think that we're going to remain entirely virtual, but I think it's Kim's point of the flexibility and what that, you know, just people, employers having a mindset of being more flexible as to how people can engage and how people people can accomplish their work and join these teams, I think, is really the big opportunity. So I agree 100%, Kim.

Absolutely. And along the lines of flexibility, regarding building a startup culture with a fragmented mix of perhaps full-time, part-time contractors, plus different locations, and everyone's— many people are so virtual right now, how can we go about building a really strong culture with such a mix of people on your team? Kim, do you have any thoughts on that?

I think it's challenging. I don't think we— like, I think in this, let's call it a hybrid scenario, right, that enables flexibility, which is great. But, you know, some people are in the office, some people are remote. You know, how do you create that culture of belonging and sense of community Honestly, I'll just be truthful. I don't have a good answer. I think we're all looking for the answer. I think we're all learning. You know, we just put on our annual inbound event and I was listening to the CEO of SAP speak and he's put together his team— sorry, the CEO of Intuit, not SAP, the CEO of Intuit speak. And they put together a task force to go out there and to think about, you know, what is this going to look like for our teams and how can we create a sense of belonging, create this community. And one of the biggest principles that that task force team is learning and asking people who's doing it really well. So I would just be honest and say, like, I don't know. And we're searching, you know, I took what he said and I was like, that's a really great point. I think being honest and not having the answer answer in current state is okay. So it's probably not what people want to hear on this webinar, but I do just have to be honest about it because I don't know.

Thoughts from your end, Wooby?

It's tough. It's, it's, it's always been tough and always will be tough. And then that doesn't necessarily have anything specifically to do with coronavirus or any of the mitigating actions to try to prevent its spread. It's always been a challenge to create that sense of, of culture amongst people who are either dispersed geographically, have different levels of engagement with the organization, whether they're a contractor or part-time, etc. The way you set up the question, that's always been a challenge. And so similarly to Kim's response, I don't think that there is or ever will be a single answer that fits any and every organization or a particular silver bullet. I think it's something that if I have to say anything about it, it would be that the organization needs to continue to put that at the fore of being intentional about being creative in how you actually go and solve for that on a regular basis. And it's probably going to change and evolve. Over time as the organization changes as well. One thing that I will share that I believe can be in the toolbox, if you will, is to share common experiences. So for the organization to share successes and say, this is what we actually, you know, this is what we aspire to do and this is how we actually have accomplished, or this is where we are. And so that creation of the we, So we accomplished this. And then for ways wherein if you have responsibility over people, whoever you're responsible for, how do you break that down into the— well, we are— we accomplished this. What role do the people who are with me, what role do they play in accomplishing that? How do I go and connect them to that? I mean, there's an entire area called employer branding, which people don't think about as much. And I would encourage that even a startup should look, at least do some research on this, because when we talk about branding in terms of startups, most of them are thinking about branding in terms of positioning themselves and their products to their customers. But employer branding, meaning selling yourself, your mission, what you do to your employees, is just as important. And so being, again, deliberate in strategies on how you develop and maintain your employer brand. If anything, I would say that be as deliberate about developing your employer brand as you are the brand that you want your customers to recognize. They're not necessarily the same, but again, taking a very deliberate approach to doing so and, you know, whatever that means, I think will at least put people on a, on a on a path to success rather than just kind of hoping something happens and finding that it didn't.

Great advice. I think that's very actionable for everyone out there. And then Shay asks, I am a people and culture ops team of one. What would be the most important thing I could do in my role to build a strong foundation for D&I as we grow? And Kim, what are your thoughts?

Yeah, sure. So just having been a team of one at some point, I'll maybe give like a tactical piece of advice or point of view, which is, you know, there are a lot of consultants, there are a lot of organizations out there that if you are a team of one, you know, I'm not saying you, maybe you're a team of one, you don't have a large budget, but how can you bring someone else in that has an objective perspective point of view. Like, if you feel like you're a team of one, are talking till you're like blue in the face, maybe you're not making headway. I'm just a big fan of like, what does a potential lifeline look like for you and where can you seek help? And a third party, consultants are sometimes necessary here, or a third party organization could be helpful. So often just my tactical advice to a team of one is where can you leverage another voice? And it doesn't have to be inside your company. So that's something that I would just say I have done many times and it has worked. So maybe that's a piece of advice I can share.

I think that's great. I think that's great advice. And you know, how can you leverage another voice? What Kim said. Is really the key. And again, there are options. You do have paid advisors. That's what my business does. It's a paid advisory firm. But I would say even before you even think about engaging a paid advisor, which if you do, be very specific about what it is that you want to tackle. That will help you better manage such engagements But even just start out engaged in communities of people who are doing something similar. So again, if you're a team of one, there might be other organizations and communities within your— again, here geography may not be it, but that are within your reach where you can share experiences, maybe get mentorship. You want people who are what I call friendlies. Who are not friends, because your friends may not be able to help you in this, in this case. But people who are friendly, because they say, yeah, you know, we've been here, uh, we, we've, we've done something similar. We can't necessarily give you, you know, unless it's a, unless it's a paid engagement or something like that, maybe they don't give you specific solutions to say, do this, do that, do that, and hopefully you'll have this outcome. But maybe they give you ideas. And at least I think especially it's important to know that you're not alone. So even the, even the question that you're asking, it's, it's not a new question there that people— you're not alone in asking that question. And there are other people asking that question in similar ways and at similar times and in similar places. Find those people and engage in relationships wherein you can start to walk arm in arm with other people and kind of help share the burden. This goes right back to what we were talking about earlier about how, how can you help other people? Well, if you're taking that kind of position of how can I be a help to somebody else, you get into spaces where people are taking that same position too, and they might be able to help you.

Absolutely. And to your earlier point of, you know, not one person in any company, no matter how small, can be the only person who's looking out for D&I initiatives, right? And making sure that the company is putting diversity and inclusion at the forefront of its culture. And so hopefully there's some, you know, there's leadership in your company, Shea, who can help sort of, you know, continue to gather momentum on your behalf as well and advise. And as Kim said, outside of your company can be useful also. And I see some Ingrid in the chat too brought it up, like it needs to come from the top in a lot of ways sometimes in order to really be able to to make change as well. So hopefully there's some buy-in there that you can, you know, have backup and sort of some help on your side in terms of, you know, making sure that you're able to meet your KPIs and really create a wonderful culture for your company. And then next up, I just wanted to kind of switch gears a little bit and ask— Arjun asks, from a VC or investor perspective, how often do they prefer diverse teams? Is it an advantage or a disadvantage to having a founding team with a lot of diverse members? And I'll toss that to you, Obi, because I know you work with a lot of startups. Have you seen anything worth noting there?

That's— this is a very interesting question because I think that there is a lot of social pressure right now on VCs in general, money managers in general. So this is not just happening only with venture capitalists, it's happening with private equity, this is happening in pension funds— to demonstrate more deliberately their ways, the ways in which they are diversifying not only their portfolios, their investment portfolios in terms of the type of people represented in who they're investing in, founders, et cetera, but also within those VCs themselves. And so I would say that it's become very important, even in the corporate circles, instead of D&I, or it extends into DSG, you know, and so— or sorry, ESG. So it's, it's, um, it's very important to a lot of them. But I also want to be real with you, that change doesn't happen very fast, and it sometimes is a little bit difficult for them to just know what that change should look like and how it's supposed to happen. I think a lot of people have been very frustrated that diversity and inclusion is not happening, or at least it doesn't appear to be happening as fast as we would hope it would be in the investment community. But I think that on the whole, this is at the forefront of many conversations, and they are looking for that. And so if— I would say that overall, it's an advantage if you are coming with a diverse group of people and you're showing that, yes, we've got it. Now, I'm going to put a little asterisk here. You can't just come and say, hey, look, we've got this mix of people. We've got a third, a third, a third of every major type of race or religion or sexual preference or anything like that. You can't just come with that. That without actually really coming with the goods. I mean, you know, it has to go hand in hand. I mean, it again goes back to the reason for diversification. So simply saying we are diverse doesn't cut it. You have to demonstrate the power of diversity at work and how that's producing results within your company.

Kim, I know on the HubSpot for Startups side, you guys worked with a lot of startups. Anything similar to what will be said as well.

Yeah, I think more people are starting to care. I believe that people are trying to do the right thing. I think investors, you know, across the scope from PE to VC to accelerators, incubators, you know, everyone's trying to do the right thing. My answer here, my point of view is more on the founder side to saying sort of like, I think you can, I think founders can be empowered. Like if you believe that you're bringing to the table, a really solid, diverse team, and you feel like you're talking to someone, you apply to an accelerator, incubator, VC, and they are not, you know, walking the walk for them, you don't have to work with them. You know, I think, I think today, like, we should be empowering founders where, like, you can put your stake in the ground and you can pick the partner that you want to work with, because if you believe wholeheartedly and are doing the best to build the most, you know, A+ performance team that cares a lot about what we're talking about today, your partner needs to, or else there is going to be a fundamental disconnect. So my answer is a little bit more around empowering the founders, because that's what we try and do on a day-to-day basis around, you know, I think you just have You have to be choosy and work with the right people.

That's a great point. That's a great point.

Absolutely. Awesome. And so we only have a few minutes left, and I want to ask my final question for you both, which is, how do you get the whole company bought into your culture? Any tactics for that? Kim, do you want to start us off?

I don't have a good answer for the whole company. I mean, I'm not a CEO, so maybe if I was, I would— founder, I would have a better answer. I just think I'll leave everyone with a little tactic that I think is sort of a small change in today's world. I think any leader, if you're running a meeting, or you are, you know, spending time in a meeting and you are a leader, just make sure that people are being heard. I think that's how you can build change. You know, I'm a big fan of like bottoms-up approach. And not everyone is going to feel comfortable being the loudest person on the Zoom or on the video call, I'm a big fan of if you are the leader or if you are the leader of the group or a leader, ask the quiet person. Give them a safe space. Give them an opportunity. You know, Jean, what do you think of that? And let her or him speak. So that's how I would answer it in sort of just posing the question to everyone out there, if you are a leader or you're in some capacity leading a meeting, just make sure we are giving the voice to maybe the quiet one or someone who just, you know, doesn't click the raise hand button or doesn't raise their hand. I think that's how we can make small improvements.

I agree. And I'll add to that and say that I believe that part of it is encouraging the development of leadership at all levels. And in all stakeholders, getting them to feel that— not just feel, but to understand that they have to take personal responsibility for carrying forward the culture. They are, again, an embodiment of what it is. And again, that will differ depending upon the level of responsibility, the person's scope of responsibility, as well as even the individual, but I like where Kim took that because I really do think leadership is the issue, but not looking again at, well, it's the CEO's responsibility. It is. The buck stops with the CEO, but really the success of it is if that gets replicated all throughout the organization in some way, shape, or form in, again, diverse ways amongst each person in the organization. How do they interpret that mission, how do they interpret what's important to the company and go and make that a reality. It's important for those who are in the positions of responsibility overlooking the organization from a strategic point of view that they're encouraging people to do that and to step out there and carry the torch.

Maybe just one thing. I'm seeing the chat roll in and I'm not a big fan of calling people out, out. So, but you know, that's just an example of maybe giving someone a voice. I would also say if you're the leader of a meeting and you give space to someone emailing you after the meeting or share your point of view, just give to what we'll be, we'll be, and I are talking about is like, just give the space. You know, my example of calling someone out, that may not be the best thing, but give them, give other people and other personalities space to make sure that their voices are heard if you are that leader.

And we have so many leaders on the call today with us, founders, and the great news is, is that your— whatever the situation is today, there's always room to do better and always room for improvement from moving forward as we learn, continue to learn, and build great cultures. And hopefully everyone has taken away some great action items today from our amazing panelists Kim and Wobie. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. Thank you to everyone for being here. Have a wonderful day. Stay safe, stay healthy, everyone. Bye-bye.

Thank you.

Thank you.