The Future of Embedded Finance & Scaling a Fintech Startup in Europe

Very quick about myself. So I am one of the directors of FI Vienna. We are an accelerator founded in Silicon Valley, based in around 200 cities around the world. We are partnering now with FI Switzerland for their first cohort, or for our first cohort, I should say. And we're covering, they're covering Paris, Switzerland, Benelux, Amsterdam, etc. So, it's a huge regional cohort this time for FI Vienna, and then we hope to run our own cohort in the fall. So, what we're doing right now is kicking off a few series of events focused on European by Design. I'll let Sarah explain a little bit about the topic and about Scale to Global, who we're partnering with. And myself, I'm an advisor and an exited founder, and I was based in Asia for quite a long time and now have moved back to Europe, my home base, and was very kind of privileged to connect with Sarah, and we kicked off this series together. So over to you, Sarah.

Thank you, Nicola, for being here. Thank you, Jackie, for the intro. So I'm one of the co-founders of Scale2Global. We help European tech startups with market entry. So we help especially in the corridor between France and Austria. I'm actually in France myself at the moment. Donc merci de prendre le temps d'être avec nous aujourd'hui, ça fait plaisir. We are based in Vienna and in France. We are soon also expanding to Scandinavia and the rest of Europe. So a lot of the founders that I work with strive to have the experience that you are currently living with Swann. So I think they're going to love this interview. And I'm very happy to be here with you today. As Jackie mentioned, our topic is European by Design. It's a topic that is close to our heart because we are a team of very international European people, and we were thinking about how can we foster European collaboration, how can we create a strong market, a competitive market out of 27 very different countries. And it's a very timely matter, I think, as everyone keep saying. And yeah, so that is, that is the topic. I'm very excited to kick off this event series with you. So maybe we should dive right in. So for those who don't know Swan, can you tell us a little bit about what you do, what embedded finance is and means, and can you visualize it a little bit for people who would like that aspect?

Yeah, of course. So thanks a lot. Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, Jacqueline. So I'm Nicolas Benadie, CEO at Swan. So what We do what's one, that's one, we offer pro accounts for businesses. So we do a little bit like Revolut Business or Qonto, this kind of companies. This is what we do. The only difference, and it's a big difference, to open a Swan account, you won't download the Swan app. We are white label, we are behind the scenes. And so we enable other companies to distribute to their own clients accounts with IBANs, with Mastercard cards with their own logo. But we provide the tech, the regulatory services, actually the financial services in a white label mode to offer this kind of services. But we have exactly the same infrastructure, the same teams, the same compliance, the same regulation. We are a regulated financial institution than the like of Revolut, Qonto, this kind of companies. And so, with us, a company with a couple of developers can embed banking features into an existing software. So what does it mean? And why is it good? So it's not always easy to understand what is embedded banking making embedded finance, but the best example I can give you is Uber. So when you take an Uber, you don't think about payment. So you can get in the car, get out the car, the payment is done. But, and it's way better than the old user experience when the taxi had to make a detour so you could withdraw cash. But put yourself in the shoes of the driver. Driver doesn't have to go to its bank to order a card machine, a POS terminal. It's totally embedded into the Uber app. And this is exactly what is a perfect example of embedded finance. And we are the kind of company that offer, uh, to the Uber of the world. So this kind of services, um, So we are banking as a service platform in a way. We offer this kind of services to 150 partners all across Europe and they can embed banking services. So we do it for all kinds of payment services, all kinds of softwares. It would be too long to get into all the details, but we are quite strong when it comes to issue co-branded cards with the logo of our clients.

Fantastic. Thank you so much for that visualization. I think it's very helpful for those that don't know, weren't familiar with embedded finance. So I think we'll kick off with a little bit about your founder journey and entrepreneurial experience. So I think for me, you know, hearing that you're a fourth-time founder, you know, it begs the question, what is it about founding companies that you love? And on top of that, what advice do you have for first-time founders? So I represent very early-stage founders in the Founder Institute cohort. What advice would you have for them at the beginning of their entrepreneurial journey?

I can tell you about what it is about being a full-time founder, because in a way, I must admit that I like it. If I do, if I'm doing it for the first time, Uh, it means that there is something I really like, and that's quite interesting because if you have asked me even 10 years ago what was my, uh, my profession, uh, I would have said engineer. Uh, and now I say entrepreneur. Uh, but at heart, uh, I'm an engineer. Uh, this, this was my background. This is where I'm coming from. Uh, this is my culture, and this is still what I love. Uh, So I'm an engineer, but it happens that I love to found a company as well. I love to craft business, to design systems, and sometimes building a company is also about building a system, building an organization, building a system. And all the companies I've built, except the first one, were around a technical idea that would change that would bring, sorry, disruption in the market. So this is me. What advice could I give to a first-time entrepreneur? This is a very good question. My advice would be, don't do that for money. And that's very important, especially if you look at the at the European tech scene, I see too many successful founders selling their company quite fast, or trying to sell their company quite fast, or having that in mind at the very beginning of the journey. I want to protect myself. I want to sell this company. This is the, the, the, the game I'm trying to do. And I can understand it's not easy when you're a first-time founder, especially, and especially because at the beginning you don't pay yourself most of the time, or so you take some risk and you're uncomfortable for quite some time. So I'm not saying this is an easy move, and I don't blame entrepreneurs who want to, to sell their company. But if you really want to build a really nice organization, a really big company, you shouldn't have this, uh, in mind. Money is a secondary reward. If you build a great company, money will come in another way. But if you have in mind the one that you will sell your company, you won't have, you won't build it the same way. So I really think this is the first and the biggest advice I would give to founders. Do it for the journey, do it for building something great. Don't do it for money. And again, maybe you will sell your company later because, well, there is a huge opportunity, maybe because you can merge with these companies, that is 1 1 3. I don't know, but don't start with that.

Fantastic advice. I think maybe we can, you know, obviously the story of Swan is quite is quite unique in the, in the different aspects of— from what I've understood, you've worked with your founders before and they've joined you on this journey again. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about, um, how Swan came to be, um, and a little bit about the vision going forward. I think that's something we, you know, there's a lot of— obviously Sarah and I have done our background research, so we've listened to interviews, but You know, to hear the future of Swan would be great as well. So maybe a little bit about the founding team and how Swan came to be, but more focused on the vision and the future.

Yeah, of course. Well, and I think it's also interesting for first-time founders and everything, because we offer a B2B service. And when you're a very young founder, so I don't know, when you're 23, 25, you can't have good idea in B2B for a good reason, because you don't have any experience. So I think first-time founders should focus on B2C examples because as an individual, you have 25 years of experience with B2C services. You can think, okay, this, I don't know, I don't like this. I don't like Instagram because XYZ, or I don't like this fridge because when I open it, I don't know, you must have your own vision of the world and you can have it only with B2C services. And so with Swan, I've been in the fintech, I had been at this time for the, in the fintech industry for more than 10 years. And I had been using the kind of services that we launched at Swan. So we were not the first banking as a service platform. There were some existing products before us and I used them and I didn't like the design. I didn't like how it was built, how it was marketed. And I knew, and because I had this experience in fintech and because I'm an engineer and because I'm an entrepreneur, I knew that it would probably be possible to do something different. Maybe it's a little bit arrogant, something better. So I had this vision. And so how to make the team now? Let's talk about the team. Building a company alone can be done. There are many examples, especially with the biggest, I would say, company that has been done by a unique, a solo entrepreneur. But it's so much easier to do it when you're 2 or 3, uh, and I think 2 or 3 is a good number. More than 3, but it's difficult to stay aligned a long time, uh, alone. It's not— 2, 3 is a good number. And yeah, the other thing is it's better to do it with someone you already know. So this is really a personal opinion because it's hard to align, uh, people. I don't know, Maybe you have your, you love to work with someone, but he doesn't want to become an entrepreneur. Few people want to become an entrepreneur, actually. And so my, um, my, uh, today my, um, co-founder, uh, Nicolas Cézon, we started to work more than 20 years ago. He was my apprentice when he was 19. I was a developer, I was 28. And I remember the first time as, so he was really young when we started to work together. He was still, uh, not in high school, but just one year after. And I found him like incredibly smart, uh, even if he was super young, you know, he was like playing music, doing, uh, he was really young in his mind, but incredibly smart. And he was a doer and I could see that he would become a leader as well, even if he was only 19. And so we started, we worked maybe 3 years like that. He was my apprentice. I was a developer. I loved him so much that we became friends and I launched another company. I asked him to come to work with me, he did it. And for Swan, it was the third time that we would work together, but this time I asked him to not to be only an employee, but to become a co-founder. And so this was a great way to work together because Well, when you know yourself, you know that you know exactly, you can fully trust someone you've worked with so, so long. So of course it's difficult because if you are really not agree at one moment or another, you will fight with one of your friends, but I accept that risk. So I think it's better to work with people you know very, very well. So it can be I don't know, a friend you've worked with when you were a student doing some university project, that's okay. Because, you know, it can be a coworker you've loved to work with, that's okay. And your job is to convince these people to work with you.

Thank you so much for that answer, because I think the choice of your co-founder is such an important strategic choice. And I'm so glad that you, for your sake, made the right one, obviously. Another strategic choice that I would like to touch upon is the choice of investors. Um, you just raised significant capital in a time where everyone says it's impossible to raise money. So could you take us a bit through that journey of raising capital? How did you manage to share your vision with investors? How did you onboard them, and how did you find the right one? For you?

So what? Okay, that's true, we've just raised €42 million, uh, one month ago now. But really, I can't give any advice on that regarding young founders, because raising a Series B or Series C is a totally different game than raising a pre-seed or a seed round. Uh, it's not only about numbers, Buttermost. So the only, the almost the only thing that the investors will look after, do you have good numbers? Do you have good revenue? Do you have significant growth? You have good margins? And yeah, do we like the business? Do we like the founders? Uh, do we like the team? Uh, but before that, it's really about numbers. And most of the time it's difficult, uh, at pre-seed or seed round to really prove that you have a great traction. So today, when it comes to en, well, I must admit that our most difficult round to raise, that's one, was a seed round. We've been lucky enough to get quite rapidly product-market fit. We've been lucky enough to have a good commercial traction quite soon. So Series A, Series B, were, uh, I would, I wouldn't say easy, but easier. But the seed round was super difficult because it was pre-revenue. Um, we had, our business is not easy to explain. We had to explain our vision to investors. I had some experience before and it was a plus, but it was not enough. And so I, well, we spent almost 6 months looking for our first investors. And, um, so you were talking about choosing your investors. Actually, for the seed round, it was more the other way around, uh, our investors accepted and chose us. And it was, uh, the good thing, I think it was one of the very prestigious investors, was, uh, uh, Kriandun, which is a Swedish, uh, investor who invested, uh, quite early in Spotify, Klarna, Trade Republic, Zettle. So quite, well, many super successful European startups. And they loved, they didn't totally understood the business, I must admit, at the time. They liked the founders, but more than that, they were really into product and design. But that's really specific investors that were really sensible about product design and they felt like we were product guys. So that's why they invested in Swyve.

A bit earlier you mentioned that you actually found your product-market fit very fast and relatively easy. Can you take us a bit through that? How did you find your target audience? How did you know what was your market? If that was a relatively smooth journey for you.

Scaling a company is hard, and, but finding the product-market fit, it's exactly like series A, is harder. Uh, so it's exactly like raising a seed round, it's sometimes harder than raising a Series B. Uh, and I'm not sure that there is a recipe, uh, for that because it can be the smartest founders on Earth, you can have a super good idea that you've tested with some people. At the end of the day, sometimes the timing is not good, which is what happened for my second company, for instance. So at the time, we, we, we, we served digital gift cards. So gift cards is something quite big in France, in my country. Every company offers a gift card to their employee at the end of the year. And so it's a big market. And so in 2007, we wanted to launch digital gift cards. We, it was very good product and everything, but people didn't want it. And it wasn't. And in 2013, another company offered exactly the same thing with, I would say, less good product than the one we had at the time. But the timing was good. The market was ready and it was quite a success. So be ready. So I will give the same advice that everybody gives. Be ready to move fast. Don't build too much. Be ready to pivot as much as possible. Do things that don't scale. Spend some time talking with your clients. With your first clients, find an audience that they love your product. So the 100 people or the 2 people that will love your product is more important than getting 1,000 subscriptions. But I will— everybody— I mean, it's the classic startup playbook. And the thing with one is you need also a little bit of intuition. So you can't rely only on your intuition, but I knew, I felt, uh, because I had many discussions with many startup founders, that what we were building was something missing on the market. And we were super lucky because what to build our platform took us 2 years, a little bit more than 2 years. We needed a license from, uh, not an electronic money license from, uh, the Banque de France, which is something super long to get. We need to build a banking platform, which is something also which is quite long to build. We had to connect ourselves to Mastercard, so it was really long. But in the meantime, we were quite good at telling during 2 years to the market, this is what we will build. And we spent quite some time to talk to many, many, many potential clients. And we could see, wow, if this was ready, we would buy it. Actually, it's so interesting that maybe we will find a, we will go to your existing competitors and we'll buy them their product, even if what you build looks better. And so during these 2 years, even if it's super long, I was always super confident that we would have some commercial traction. And this is what happened. Day 1, we already had like 20 companies interested in the waiting list and we could serve, uh, they want the service. But still, uh, our business is quite difficult. We, we started to make revenue with them only one year after. So 3 years after the beginning of the company, which is quite long.

That is indeed quite long, but you managed. And now I want to ask you something that doesn't go to your past experience, but rather I would love to know What is next for Swan? What are the next steps?

It's pretty easy. We want, we don't have a full banking license today. We have a NIMONE license, which is a kind of light banking license that the European Union authorized 15 years ago. So we just want to become one of the major bank in the future. So in the year 2030s, in the year 2040s, we want to become one of the major European banks. We will be, we will offer the same kind of services as every bank, but we will have different distribution channels. Instead of a branch, instead of an app, instead of a banking website, we will have APIs. And so we will be distributed through partners who will have their own, who will offer their own banking services to their clients. And so the banking services are exactly where you need them. And so you exactly like Uber drivers who don't need to get a POS terminal.

And that's a great follow-on question to go into, which is how do you see the FinTech market in Europe? How do you see it shaping out with all, you know, with a lot of geopolitics going around, with, you know, this huge push in Austria for to be kind of the next FinTech hub in Europe? How do you see the FinTech expansion growth in Europe? And, you know, the opportunities, the challenges, and consolidation, for example, in the banking sector? What is your What's your, your, your feel for that and the, and your insights that you have?

Okay, so fintech first. Fintech means many, many different things. Uh, so you can have, for instance, softwares for the banking industries. They are called fintech. If you look, I don't know, at a company like Memboo, which is a, a German, uh, core banking system, that's only the backbone of banks, and many banks need a new backbone. You can find some solution to find, to fight against frauds and everything. So that's one of the part of the fintech, which is of course super exciting, super interesting because banks digitized themselves in the years 1960s. They were probably the, the, the first industries to, to become digitized. So they have a lot of legacy systems that need to be renewed. So this is a part of the fintech industry that I am not into. We are more, and we are not the only one, into providing new kind of banking services, new kind of financial services directly to companies or to end users. So we are the like of, I don't know, Trade Republic, Revolut, N26, like Conto, this kind of company, we offer directly, uh, banking services. Uh, and I think this is quite interesting because I believe, so if you look at the retail banking market in Europe, that's a huge market. That's a €400 billion market. So if you look at all the fees that the bank takes, uh, all the, the, the credit fees, uh, the bank, the, the payment fees that the merchants have when they get paid, your monthly fee of your card, of your bank account, all of this, it's €400 billion, uh, market. And if you deeply look at this market, I think that individuals are quite well served. If you ask too many young people, most of the time, this is a question I ask to every news one is, what is your primary bank? What is the bank you use on a daily basis? And so for young people, you could expect, you could expect, well, N26, Revolut, Bunq, sorry. But no, most of the time it's legacy bank. So it can be, I don't know, Deutsche Bank, BBVA in Spain, Société Générale in France, and Raiffeisen in Austria. Most of the time, even young people still use old banks because the service is okay. And, uh, it could be better, but it's good enough for most people. And so most of the time young people have an account because their parents open an account to them, which makes you understand how this business is crazy. Because once you convince a client to open a bank account, You know, not only you have them for their whole life, but you all, you also, you will also have their children as a client, maybe. So retail banking is good enough for individuals. Retail banking is also super good for big enterprises. If you're a big company, you will be quite well served by banks. No discussion. But small and medium businesses, SMBs, for many reasons. First, because it's not easy. Uh, and two, because it's not very profitable for banks, are not very well served by, uh, banks. And this is where I see the, the biggest growth opportunity for fintechs. And this is where Revolut business works the most, again, Qonto and this kind of company. And we are part of this revolution. And I think that today, when it comes, for instance, if you look at France, Spain, and Germany, I don't know the whole European market, but most of new companies created open an account with this kind of company and not with traditional banks. So yeah, I believe that the biggest opportunity is to serve better SMBs in Europe who deserve better financial services.

It's really nice to get this perspective. I mean, I, I was listening to a few fintech panels, banking as a service panels, and you know, there's the legacy banks on the same panel as a large fintech, and the conversation they have around deregulation, it's really, um, it's an exciting debate and discussion and needs everyone in on the table. I think that's very important, all the different disruptors as well as legacy altogether, you know, sharing opinions and best practices, etc. Now, kind of moving back to the topic of this series, which is European by Design, I listened to your interview with Finance World, which was a wonderful interview, really just, you know, great, great kind of interaction between the podcasters and you, so really appreciated it. I think there was one thing that kind of really struck me as very pivotal to this conversation, which was how Swan is already perceived as a European tech product in the German market. So when you were talking a little bit about expanding into Germany, it was already seen as, you know, there was worry it's, you know, there was a perception that it could be perceived as a French fintech, but actually it was perceived as a European company. And I think I'd love to delve a little bit into that, like what does it mean to be a European company and how do we support that type of mindset and collaborative way of thinking, especially in this very, very kind of tumultuous geopolitical landscape that we're being thrown into right now?

So first, yeah, so it's a bit personal. I'm proud to be European, especially today. I think we are probably the last cool place in the world. And so that's why, well, I would love that Europeans feel a little bit more European than— that's always what I say in my company, we are not French, we are not German, we are not Spanish, we are not Austrian, we are European. And, but well, many people feel still today that it's more important to think about the country first than this big region that is Europe. My personal point of view is I love France, I love my country, honestly. And I'm not that European. You can feel that I'm French when I speak and everything. But if we want to survive in today's world, we must act as European. And so we, Founded the company with 3 very French guys. So for instance, I've never lived abroad. I'm not this kind of people who did this study, very nice study in the States or whatever. No, I've always studied in France. Unfortunately, I would have loved to. And we knew that we were super French, but we, the 3 of us, when we founded the company, we told ourselves we can't be French. We must be European. It's absolutely mandatory. And We took a bold decision quite early in the company, and this is something that was one of the very important decisions that we took. When we were 10 in the company, we decided that we should hire someone who didn't speak French. So not someone who wasn't French, but someone who didn't speak French. And this was super, it was a pivotal moment for the company because we had to switch from French to English. The day this guy arrived, every communication switched from French to English. Actually, it was simpler than expected, even for the very French people we had in the team. And there were some people who didn't speak that well English. And it changed a lot the company. And we really tried to recruit some non-French people in Paris. And today, I even see this one as a Well, a good place to be for non-French speakers who live in Paris. And actually, there are many of them. So it's quite good because we have a good proportion of the team, even in our Paris office, who don't speak French. And we have all kinds of nationalities in the office, which is super nice. But I think this is really something that you must have in mind, that one, and you shouldn't focus on your market. So we focused ourselves on the European market, but for some for some reason, because banking services are heavily regulated and you can't have, you can't serve the whole world with, if you don't have a, there is no global banking license, it doesn't exist. So we had to serve only the European Union. But if we could, we would have been happy to sell some software all around the world. But with a European, it would have been built in Europe.

I love what you just said, everything you just said. I identify so strongly with what you just said about Europe and being European. I think that's fantastic. And I really hope that more startups in Europe start with that mindset of European being European and not just French or German or Austrian. I think that's great.

This is really something I've seen, so I can't tell about every country, but the mindset has really changed these last 20 years. I've been in the startup ecosystem for quite some time now, and in the years, I don't know, even 2000s or 2010s, people were more— I can tell you about the Paris ecosystem, really, founders were more focused on the, on their domestic market and on, uh, and it, something has changed. Maybe thanks to the American, uh, investors who came into the market and who forced many founders to be more international and well, uh, people change a little bit. So I feel like today it's way more easy than 10 or 20 years ago to build a European company, even if There are many, many things that could be done to ease the life of entrepreneurs. Well, not only entrepreneurs, but to business. But things go in the right direction.

I agree.

I definitely agree. I want to just touch up on something you said earlier because you mentioned AI when you talked about investment. And I don't want to get back to investment, but I would like to know, with AI now also taking a big space in fintech, in any types of financial services, How do you see that going in regards to embedded finance, for example?

Well, uh, I, so fintech, the, the, the finance industry, the banking industry will be heavily, uh, changed by AI. And so it's a massive revolution. So it's not a revolution for every industry. I don't know if you are a baker, uh, AI won't have a strong, uh, influence, at least not today. Uh, Maybe there will be robots.

We don't know yet.

Yeah, we don't know yet, exactly. But for the banking industry, there are so many jobs that will be changed by AIs. There are so many things that will change from compliance, through the fight against fraud, customer support, So many things can be solved with AI. So it's not only embedded finance because at the end of the day, we do again the same than most of, we offer the kind of services that many banks offer. We offer cards, we offer accounts. And so the revolution will be the same for us than it will be for other players, other banks or other financial institutions.

I think we're going to kind of end with one last question. I guess, you know, founders, we are a passionate lot. You know, entrepreneurs, we're known for that. And I think one of the key attributes of being a founder and being a successful founder, a successful startup founder, is the way you lead your team, right? You said you need to bring people on your vision. You need to entice people. I mean, not to be so clichéd, but we all know the Steve Jobs, you know, the visionaries of the world, they were able to bring people on this journey of their vision. And I think as a very experienced founder yourself, how have you seen your leadership change from the beginnings of your first startup to where you are now? And how can early-stage founders You know, I can, I think Sarah and I can both agree on this. When we're advising startups and we see early-stage startups, we can already see kind of the challenges they will face, because one of the biggest challenges is managing people and being around building teams and how, you know, getting that culture to be ingrained into whatever, you know, at the very beginning, you know, you see you hear the, you know, Brian from Airbnb talk about the culture, how he ingrains it in the beginning of founding the company, how important it is. And I think, you know, could you tell us a little bit about what attributes have you found have stayed with you and which ones did you have to learn quite quickly to adapt, change, get rid of? You know, what is it that founders can learn from you, that you can kind of impart your wisdom, that they— I mean, we all, we have to make mistakes, we have to learn from, we only learn from our mistakes, but is that thing, are there attributes that you really say, hey, these are leadership attributes? And that's something that you said about the one of your founders that you, you know, worked with as his, as your apprentice.

I know, but unfortunately I won't have super good advice for you because I don't believe there is one way to lead people or there is one way to manage people. There are many, many, many different ways to do that. And I think the way I do it is quite different from many people. I'm not super charismatic when I meet people. I'm not like the one that you notice, I don't know, in a party. I'm not I'm not this kind of guy, uh, and, and that's okay. I'm in peace with that, uh, but I don't know. I'm, uh, and again, I know many of the founders I know have this kind of, uh, of attributes. You can, you can see that they are charismatic leaders and they are— they can be harsh with people, but people don't care, that they still want to stick around, uh, And so that's why I wouldn't give any strong advice. You should be like that. You should be harsh with people. No, you should be super nice with people. I know what I am. I know why sometimes people like me because actually people like me most of the time because I'm impressed by people. So this is my personal gift, I would say. I'm really, I can see where people are good and I'm wow. Each time I say, ah, I'm not as good at them. So when I see a good developer, I'm always, well, impressed. You're so good. When I see a good marketer, a good account executive, I'm deeply impressed and people can see that. I'm really interested into why he's good. And so I believe that's why people like to work with me. But again, this is my way of leading people. So you must find your own way. For sure, if people, if you don't like people and if people don't like to stick around you for some reason, it can be for bad reasons sometimes, just because they like you because you challenge them. It can be that. You must find your way to manage and there is no, nobody is, there is not one way to be a leader, for sure. So I don't have good advice for that would work for everyone.

I think I can sum up for the audience, for everyone who's listening, that it's, you know, something, you know, humility, modesty, kind of coming out from the way you're speaking. And of course, knowing thyself. I think that's kind of the most important, right? That we surround ourselves with people that are better than us. And we know our strengths and we really work on our weaknesses, but we find people who can support those weaknesses as well.

I don't work on my weaknesses. I accept them. I take them. Accept them. Exactly.

And move on.

I find some people, I recognize them and I find the right people that don't have these kind of weaknesses.

Correct. Correct. Thank you so much for your time. It is Yeah, it's a real pleasure to— like I said at the very beginning, it's rare to get the opportunity to speak to someone who is really on this trajectory of, of growth, major growth, scaling, unicorn, however you want to put it. And so I think for us, it's just a question of how can we take the learnings, how we can disseminate them. Our jobs, though, Sarah and mine, is to kind of really give as much exposure, as much as we can for these early-stage startups so that they get to learn, which is something incredible with this, you know, with this time that we're in, you know, social media and all of this kind of interactivity. One thing that is so amazing is that we get to listen and feel very close to people who would never get that opportunity before. So I really want to thank you for that. Sarah, do you have any last points or anything to ask before we wrap up?

I just want to say thank you for your time. It was really interesting. It was lovely getting to know the person behind this very successful project, and I am beyond excited to see where this takes you and what you're going to do next.

I hope I will start one quite long, so— Thanks a lot for the interview and see you, Jacqueline and Sarah.