Building Trust and Working With Celebrities, With Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss

You're listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is your seat at the table.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Business Lunch. I have here someone that I want to introduce to you because we can't seem to get our introductions right. I'm going to say in a minute that I'm going to let you meet my business partner, Ryan Deiss, who is co hosting with this. That will cue him that he should talk. And so now I want to introduce you all to my co host, Ryan Deiss.

Hey, thanks so much, Roland. I appreciate you allowing me to be here and for really queuing me on that intro. We may get this right, we may never get it right. It's fine. It's great. I think it's better this way.

Yeah. If you guys have listened to any of this, we. We've been going back and forth as we started this new format. It's like, hey, I'm Roland Frazier and I have in my head what's going to happen next? And I don't share that with Ryan. So he's like, and me, plenty of.

Times you just intro me. I like that we're just keeping it completely inconsistent because it makes me look like an idiot every time.

I mean, in fairness, the consistency is the inconsistency.

That's true. Hey, totally unrelated to that, we have a big announcement. Like, we literally just got word on something very, very cool within minutes of us logging on this here podcast recording device. You want to share the good news?

I would love to. We have been working with. So we have our wonderful traffic and Conversion summit live event every year. It's the largest digital marketing event in North America. It's got thousands and thousands of folks that come out every year and share. We share all of the latest developments in marketing and the online space. We have great guests and we also have really cool celebrities. And we're always looking for people who are very, very relevant and very, very interesting that can. That will also provide takeaways for everybody in the audience. And so we just confirmed. I literally just got the text. We have been negotiating for quite a while now and they were, I think, tied with the Rock for our ideal celebrity. Here we got Snoop Dogg and Martha Stewart coming to tnc and they are the. They are the. The main feature celebrities. We're going to interview them together because they've been doing a lot of cool stuff together. So look for that. It's September 13th, 14th and 15th of 2021, depending on when you're listening to this. So really excited about that.

In San Diego in love, which is a great place to be. Yes.

Now, we can't run. We can't actually release this until we have the. The payment sent to them. So that's got to happen, whoever's watching this before we make this live. But that said, we're very excited to have them. It's going to be really fun. I think those guys are some of the ads that I sent you guys a copy of the ad Ryan today that they did. And Martha's there selling Bic lighters, and she's like, perfect for candles and Snoops in the background and other things. And it's just kind of fun what they've been able to do together.

Yeah. I love how, you know, you're talking about kind of these. It's like a really great joke, right? A really great joke. The punchline is going to bring together two things that have no business fitting together. And then when you see them together, it's just perfect. Right. That is kind of the essence of a punchline. And I feel like Martha Stewart and Snoop Dogg are just like, it's just so perfect. And I love that it's there. I love that we're going to have him.

Your picture disappeared. There you go.

Anyway, I love that we're going to be able to have both Martha and Snoop together on the same stage, because it's not just having the celebrities there and the elevation that comes from that. It's like from a brand elevation. Just feeling cool about having famous people in an event. I think, you know, they're really going to bring some good, cool business strategy because both of them, you know, they're not just entertainers. They're business people. So one thing, number one, if you haven't gotten your ticket to Traffic and Conversion Summit, make sure that you do that. Traffic conversionsummit.com Tickets are as low as they will ever be right now. So do get those tickets. But I want to talk to you kind of along these lines. I know we weren't planning on talking about this, but it's something that comes up a lot. Brands, marketers, Right. How should they be thinking about working with celebrities? It's something that we've done for a long time. I was very much against it. This is a stupid waste of money. I remember at Traffic Conversion Summit 3, you had just become a partner in the business and you were very adamant, like, we need to elevate it. We need to get a big celebrity at TNC this year. And I was like, this is such a waste of money. Nobody cares about this. The celebs don't bring any content. Why would we do this? And you're like, we need to do it. We got William Shatner, which was fantastic.

And people were asking, they were, why William Shatner? What does he have to do with marketing? But turns out he's a brilliant marketer who has been around for a long time, not only marketing himself and constantly reinventing himself, but spokesperson for so many big brands. Why would you have William Shatner be a spokesperson for Priceline? Right?

And it worked out great. Right? And I was so wrong. And so I kind of want to ask you, like, why should brand. We think about influencers a lot, like, and having an influencer strategy, right? But why should brands be thinking about working with celebrities? Like, what is the make the case for it. Give me the bull case on why brands out there should think about working with celebrities.

So one of the cool things that to me explains this the best is how in the advertising industry, the ad execs typically refer to celebrities when they're thinking about having somebody like a William Shatner for a Priceline promotion or, or snoop for something. And it is a trust agent. They call them a trust agent. And so what it does is it breaks down the barrier of the cold, unknown brand with someone who is kind of like a friend telling you this is okay. Because if you know, like, and trust Snoop or Martha or whoever you're looking at, even for alcohol, there's a lot of that going on right now, right? You had the rocks, got a tequila brand, and Ryan Reynolds, I think, just exited a gin brand. And George Clooney had a tequila Billion dollar. Was it tequila, Right, for George, yeah. And it's all about trust. So why would we pay money, for example, to have Martha Stewart and Snoop and a couple of other cool celebs we can't announce yet come to Traffic and Conversion Summit, it's because you'll see that these people are associated with the event. And maybe you don't know the event yet, maybe you've never, even though it's been around for over a decade, maybe you haven't heard of it and you're thinking, I don't know, I mean, I want to get out again and everything, but should I? Whoa, my gosh. I've got people that I already like that are going to be there and that bridges the gap between the trust or the confidence or the safety that what you're buying is actually going to be something valuable, which is something that you have to be concerned about, especially before you spend as much Money as it takes to travel to an event. And it just takes. I think it takes the risk out and increases the comfort level for the people who are looking to make an acquisition. What is your thinking on that?

Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. It's also just a signal, Right. That clearly this must be a thing if they can afford to go and get people like this. Right. I mean, so I think it's a signaling device, like having a nice watch or a fancy car. It can be a signaling device for a brand. And I also think that there's something to the experience itself when they're there. So you don't get this as much if you're leveraging them in advertising, but when it is an event and people who are at that event can be in the same room with Martha and Snoop or. I know a couple years ago, we had Richard Branson. When Branson walked out on that stage, I mean, we were both on stage with him when he walked out. And you could just feel it in the room. I don't want to be like, weird, metaphysical or anything.

No, it was energy.

You got a wall of energy that I hadn't felt before with anyone. When he came out, it was pretty crazy.

Yeah. So, I mean, just the brand elevation that you get from the signaling, funny enough, from a marketing perspective, it actually reduces the cost of your acquisition because not only do conversion rates go up, but it allows you to go after broader audiences and get the attention of folks you wouldn't. So we have yet to do a celebrity deal that didn't pay for itself. And what I love about the way that you think is, so I want to talk about how to do a deal. I kind of want to break down. What is it like, how do you go out? Because it's not like you just hit them up on Twitter or something like that. There's a process. So I want to talk about that. But in the context of that, all of the other little bolt on things that you think of that give us additional areas of monetization, like creating additional expenses that really for them, like, hey, hang around for an extra 30 minutes and do a meet and greet. But it's all stuff that you can charge for. So talk about. Walk me through. If I'm a brand, I'm thinking that I want to target a particular celebrity, right. And there's somebody that I think I might want. What is the process? What can you generally expect to spend? And then what are kind of the little intangibles that people not intangible what are the very tangible bolt on monetization opportunities that people should be thinking of to help offset some of the cost?

Sure, yeah. So the very first thing would be to connect with them. You're typically not going to get around the agent. You might if you've already got a relationship with them, that's the first thing to ask is do I or anyone that I know already have a relationship with them? So I know we know several people like Daymond John is a great example. Who or Tim Ferriss or Tucker Max. People that we've had come out for free because they, we were able to reach out to them, which is very unusual because a lot of them charge money for doing that. And so I think Rachel Hollis was one. And so a lot of folks like that. And so that's the very first place. If you don't know somebody directly, then you're going to go typically through either a broker or directly through their agent. But a lot of times the agents, if it's a big celebrity, won't return your call. They won't talk to you if they don't already know you. So you actually have to have some sort of connection to be able to talk to the agent. So in that event you'll use a celebrity broker. And we do that. We did that in deal we have. And basically there's a broker who has a relationship with someone who is spending regular time with the people. In this case it was somebody that was spending regular time with both Snoop and Martha that enabled us to get their attention because it's not like they're sitting around waiting for offers. They have offers that are coming in constantly. And Martha Stewart, unless things have changed, is still a billionaire. And Snoop is doing really, really well, riding a huge wave of popularity. So like they're not, they don't really care about your thing. There's a selling that you actually have to do. It's not that you come and say okay, how much is it to come to my thing? And they give you a price. It's more you gotta be in their circle somehow. So figuring out how to winnow your way into that circle is, is an interesting challenge. Brokers are a really easy way to do that. So then we start thinking about how.

Do I find a broker though? How do I find a broker? So I know in general you just go and ask pretty much anybody you can think of. I mean, but if I don't have this network yet, I've got a fairly early event I want to get somebody to do it. What's the place to start. Can I just Google Celebrity Broker?

Celebrity Broker Los Angeles. If it's a LA talent or wherever the area that you're in, like if you're in the UK or, or wherever, you can go to IMDb and IMDb, the IS Internet Movie Database will actually list if you get a pro account, they'll tell you who the agent is and give you the contact info so you can reach out to the agent that way. That's a place that you could start as well. If you don't get replies, then you might look at some of the places that they've spoke before and then reach out to those people and say, hey, I'm thinking about hiring this person that spoke at your event. Would you be kind enough to help me figure out who I should talk to? And that's a great way to find who made that connection because the event coordinator is usually plugged into that and they're generally friendly and happy to share that information. I have people that hit me up all the time. Like we had Arnold Schwarzenegger last year at our event and I've had four or five people say, hey, how do I connect with them? And then I just pass them on to the, you know, to the people. With a warm intro though, from somebody that's already paid money. That's going to get a lot more attention than just reaching out out of the blue. Hey, Roland Frazier here and I want to talk to you about an ad card. This card, created by funneledash, was designed for companies that spend a lot of money on ads and want to scale ad cards. Not only really simple to use for your ad spend, but but it gets.

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So I got my contact and then I go, I just say, okay, how much? I'm guessing that's not it. So what's the process of that initial communication? What do I need to have in a row?

The answer is, we're not going to tell you how much. The answer is, how much are you going to pay? And that's kind of weird. Like, a lot of them don't have a set fee. So the way that most of this stuff works is through a thing called a firm offer. And so what you're going to do is have a conversation with them and see generally what they're getting, because that price is always moving based on fame. Like, their fame is like. Like a coin. Like, I think you have Ryan coin.

Right?

I mean, there's. The coin that would exist for the celebrity is similar to the speaking thing. So that's going to go up and down based on. On how popular they are. Did they say something bad or good? Did they do something bad or good? Are they in a movie that's popular right now? Did they just have a book that came out? So that price is going to fluctuate. It's going to be down if a book is coming out, because they're going to want to get out and do the circuit and get as many people buying that book as possible. And to be up if they just signed a big movie deal, because they're like, I just signed a big movie deal. I'm going to be all over the place. And so that's hard to get. They'll typically give you a range at least. And then it's a negotiation, just cold, hard negotiation for the next however many weeks or months it takes that to happen. And sometimes it can be six months for us on some of our bigger folks. Then you've got to tie down Availability and you've got to be worried about these things called opt out clauses. So when you have an A list celebrity that might be doing a movie or something like that, they have an opt out clause that typically is in the agreement that says if a movie deal comes along, they can Cancel up to 14 days before the event. That's crazy. So part of your, like you want to get them as soon as possible to announce them as being connected with the thing that you're trying to sell and they're trying to fight to not be pinned down until the last minute. So that's also a deal. But you don't, you can't have an opt out clause because then you've spent all the money advertising and everybody's coming to your event and you look like you're a liar because the person doesn't show up. So that's, that's something that we, we get knocked out and then you get to. What is my multi order thinking? How do I think about the multiple ways that we can use this thing that we.

Before we get to that, before we get to that, I want to, I want to talk about like price range. And because I know it, it differs a lot, we're largely talking about like when we're booking these celebrities, they're coming out to an event and so it's more of an appearance type thing. Now obviously if you're gonna ask somebody to endorse a product and that product is going to be, you know that endorsement is gonna be used. Like if it's gonna be used all over the place, on tv, online. Like if it's gonna be used in an ad on an ongoing basis, that's gonna be way higher than just doing a single appearance. If you want to distribute the video or something like that of the event after the fact, that's going to be more expensive. So can you kind of speak to the different types of endorsement, appearance kind of things and just general price ranges, like what should I expect if I want to get a Schwarzenegger or one of these? What should I be mentally thinking in my head if I want them to show up to my event?

Yeah. So if you're looking at events, the celebrities we're typically looking at range, our offers are going to range somewhere between $100,000 and $800,000. For those kinds of celebrities, you would be looking at not less than a million dollars. For the Rock. You might be at 2 million for JLo. So those numbers are generally known. Celebrities that are on reality TV are typically going to run a Little bit less. They might be in the 50 to 100 range. And then authors is just kind of all over the place. They're typically in the 0 to 50, I would say more often than not. Multiple bestseller, well known authors might be 75k or so. I think you're charging when you go 40, right. Or 50 or something like that.

I think we quote 50 and I'm willing to do 40 if it's somebody that I know. But that's largely because I don't want to. Yeah, me too.

The same here.

Yeah. Most of your speakers, if somebody is a niche, I guess, Internet celebrity and they got a book, 25 to 50 is generally going to get that done. And there's ways to offset that with book buys. And what you said is important. And this is what Gary told me. I mean, we've gotten Gary to come out and he's like, look, if I've got a book that I want to sell, buy some books and I'll come out. I want to sell books.

Gary Vee, he's talking about for everybody that's listening.

Yes. Gary Vaynerchuk, same. I know we were having conversations at one point. I don't think the timing worked out because he maybe got a movie deal or something. But Matthew McConaughey.

Oh, and Jessie Alba also, we had a deal with her, all but done. And then she got a movie offer and then disappeared.

Right. But McConaughey was cheap for a year when his book came out. And then. I mean, ish.

But you're still six figures plus.

Yeah. Comparatively speaking. Right. Whereas if they're not in book mode. So finding somebody, if you understand who's got a book coming out, that can be good, get them. But just to be clear, like, that's if you want somebody to endorse your product, it's a lot more than that. Right. And there may even be royalty involved, kind of.

It might be, yeah. It depends. So to finish the event conversation, or at least on that pricing side. So as you mentioned, you can do book buys. There are other things that you could do that might be monetizable. You could give them a piece of the event, a piece of the event revenue. That's like, they call that a part of the door. So you could do that. And if you've got a history of having events and you just don't have cash right now, but you can establish that you have that, that is a possibility. One of the things that we'll frequently do is we sell sponsorships at our event. So we have millions and millions of dollars of sponsor revenue at the event. And we have packages as to what those things cost. So we'll create a custom package that's an advertising package for someone who has like the rock with his tequila. We proposed a multi hundred thousand dollar advertising package in addition to a multi hundred thousand dollar payment to try to get into that seven figure plus range that he was going to want. So that's another opportunity that you've got to think about. When we're looking at trying to get Oprah. We proposed that we provide a scholarship for that was valued at several hundred thousand dollars for her schools over in Africa of product from one of our company's digital marketers. So a lot of that is how creative can I be to look at what is the celebrity's other things that they're doing, what are the causes that are important to them, what are the projects that they're currently involved with, what are the other products or services that they're endorsing and how do we create benefit for them? Mark Cuban wanted to have us endorse his cookie company as part of the deal because he has these cookies that he's madly in love with. So like that. And it was like, you can't get him unless you do something with the cookie thing. You know, okay, cool, we're going to do something with the cookie thing.

Let me love my cookies.

Right.

So other ways. Because if I'm hearing this, I'm like, that seems really expensive. That's crazy. I believe you that maybe it pays off. But what if it doesn't? I'm scared. So what are some of the things that you've done in the past to really offset that risk in terms of other little aspects of the agreement and other monetization opportunities?

Yeah. And I do want to speak to people that are thinking about using these celebrities for product endorsements. So those deals, typically if you're smart, you do those with a test budget. So you'll have, you'll agree maybe if it's like a lot of kind of B level celebs, you'll pay say a 50k test budget fee. So you might pay them $50,000 to do a test to see if the thing that you're doing works. And then if it does, you'll have either an escalating fee, a monthly, a quarterly fee, or a royalty deal where they're getting a piece of the revenues that come in or they might ask for a profit participation as well. And I think a lot more of them are realizing that becoming part of the brand instead of just a spokesperson. And having equity can really be good. Now you're going to have to have something that shows that you've either done this in the past if it's a startup, or that you currently have revenues and profits if it's not. But I know one of our friends, Kevin Harrington, did a deal with Flo Rida on a energy drink like that. And Flo has made several million dollars in stock that were way beyond what he would have made had he only said, you know, pay me $300,000 and I'll show up on your product. So. But the way that you do that typically is they will almost always ask for some cash up front. The way that you get that way down to see if it actually works and turns into something is to have a test budget. And then ideally, you negotiate in advance if this works. We're going to do this because it would kind of suck to have a test budget that did well and then not have the option to pay more or give them a royalty or whatever to do the next level of things. That's kind of a trick that a lot of people don't know. That test budget thing.

That's really cool. All right. How do I make more money if I'm going to do an appearance type thing?

Yeah.

So hopefully I make it off of additional ticket sales. Hopefully I make it off of reduced acquisition. But what are some other ways I can offset it?

Yeah. So one of the easiest that we've done is meet and greet. So we'll do a meet and greet. So. Well, I guess first is you could have a VIP ticket level that allows people to get closer to the celeb in some way. It could just be in seating, or it could be that there's a speaker dinner or something like that. That's something that we do. And that actually is very effective even with. Not celebrities. Right. Just the people that are speaking at the event. There's a group of people, including probably us, that would like to get connected to those speakers for other possibilities. And so we'll pay a little bit more money to go to a place where we can connect with the speakers, because otherwise they go up on the stage and then they disappear. So that's first to have different classes of tickets that might have other benefits that get you within the range of them. The next one would be to be able to have direct contact. So that's typically done through a meet and greet where you get a photo op with the celeb and hopefully. Well, I'd say that's the first level would just be there's a line and you're like, hey, hey. You know, there's all these pictures. And when you're doing that, by the way, take off your name tag so it doesn't look like you're an attendee at an event.

That's a pro tip right there.

Way better.

The next level would be that there's an actual meet and greet, not a photo op. So you could sell the photo op as something that people who want just to have a picture with a celeb take. You could also sell the photo op, plus the ability to have a conversation with the celebrity in a private setting within a group. And that's typically something. We've sold that for up to, I think, $15,000 for the ability to hang out with us, with Richard Branson, for example. And so I think we maybe sold 25 tickets to that at $15,000 a piece. I can't do that math, but I can do 20. So, you know, that's an extra $300,000 that you can use to offset the cost of the celebrity or maybe even make a profit from actually hiring them. The next level would be, is there anything else that you can do with that as well? So one of the things that we've done is we said, well, we have another media channel that can ride off of the benefit of that appearance, and that's our business launch podcast, which you're watching or listening to right now. And so the way we've had Richard Branson and all these other people on here and the way that we now have Martha Stewart and Snoop Dogg coming on the podcast, is that the podcast is done live at the event. So we'll interview the people live at the event, and then that's Business Lunch Live. Business Lunch Live then is branded during the interview session. And all of the people that are the thousands of people in the audience and that are watching remotely might then come and download Business Lunch and subscribe so we get more subscribers. And that's a really great opportunity to. To be able to promote that other media and have trust agents on there that would be way too expensive for our podcast budget to afford to have on. So that's a really powerful way to do that too. I was trying to think of anything else that we do. I had one in my head and slippery, well, there's a biggie.

There's a biggie, and that is if there's somebody who you legitimately think you might want to do business with if you feel like, there is a business development opportunity. It's so funny. There's all, you know, we get asked all the time, how did you get to know, you know, a lot of these people? Like, because we've done business with Damon and with Gary. Like, we've done business with a number of different, you know, celebrities of varying levels, including, like, look, there's a good chance that if you have Richard Branson come out to your event, he's probably not going to do a business deal with you just because you paid him to come out. Right. There's certain people he might. There's certain people that are at a certain level, it just ain't going to happen. But a lot of folks, like, there's a lot of people that we've done business with because they first paid the toll. Right. Whether it's joining a mastermind or paying us to consult or something like that. One of the ways that you can pay the toll.

If one exists, there's no better way to get to talk to somebody. Yeah. So you're right. So we do build in frequently into the agreements that there is a dinner with us with the principals of the event that they have as well, or that we simply just have time in the green room with them before, so they have to arrive 45 minutes before the thing starts so that they can be ready and everything. And in the green room, it's just us and them, and so we have an opportunity. That was how I got to talk with William Shatner, because everybody was up on stage and he was getting ready to go up and he was just hanging out and we talked and he's like, you guys should probably do my next book. And we did. So that was. That is another great way that we've done as well. It's hard to get time. So, like, what we've done most recently is we say, you have to arrive this far in advance. The green room is only us. So then we have the opportunity to chat with them in the green room. And Branson we actually did get to talk with. He was kidding around with your son and my wife. And so if we had something that would have been good to do with him, we would have absolutely had 100% of his attention in his ear. And I know that if you have something to present that makes sense, then you could have that conversation. We just didn't really have anything.

You also opened the door to a conversation after the fact. Hey, I want to thanks so much by the way this came up. I mean, it's not, as, you know, it's not as perfect. The point is when you do it, we've done this before, we said there's not going to be a meet and greet afterwards. We're going to do the meet and greet because there's a much bigger business opportunity here than there is whatever monetization we get from the meet and greet. And we don't think we can do both. So we, you know, that's kind of one of those things where, which side do you want to maybe over index to? And we've done that. Like, hey, afterwards we're going to take you to dinner and then just don't be a weirdo, right?

And sometimes they ask you, like Marcus Lamanis. We weren't able to have him out in person because of the pandemic last year, but he said, hey, let's do a deal. And so then you. It's very easy to follow up at that point. And so that's part of it too is just the discovery of them being able to have interaction with you, which is also when I'm interviewing, you don't want them to give a talk. By the way, you want to interview them because it's much more intimate and it's much more bonding. And it also lets you take advantage of that other media channel build strategy that we talk about by showing them that you have done your research in advance and that you really know your stuff about them as well. That makes a huge difference in the ability to be known to them because you have to think about how many times they get interviewed and asked the same old question by people that haven't done any time or research. So I think when you're, when you have 100,000, you know, six figure to seven figure investment in someone who's coming out, you better consume everything that you can to be as ready as possible. You also frequently have to submit your questions in advance. And so to have good questions to ask really helps differentiate you and make them remember you when you reach out again. So I know we can reach out to Richard Branson. I know we can reach out to the other people that we've interviewed because they've, they said they had a good time and they were going beyond their time. That's the other nice thing is that like last year was a great example. Arnold was like, hey, I'm not in any hurry, I'll stay here as long as you want. He fired up a cigarette and a drink and was, you know, he pulled.

Out a big stogie like the size of a baby's arm. Yeah, and he did. He just hung out with our VIPs for extra time. He's like, no, it's great. Just got real casual. No, you're right. The key is, when you do it, don't be a weirdo. Don't get overly starstruck. Don't be like, I'm such a fan. They're gonna go into celeb mode if you do that. Right. So just be prepared and be professional. I think you're gonna find. So anyway, we spent more time there on that subject than I thought we would.

It's good for one full podcast. So I think we wrapped this one up today. Your video keeps going in and out.

I got a new camera, by the way. Those of you, if you're watching this on YouTube, which if you're not, you should. I look great. I mean, there's kind of like a little bit of blur in the background. Right. I look great. But the signal keeps cutting in and out. So, you know, one step forward, two steps back. Anyway, I agree. I think getting that out there was good, though.

This is the celebrity episode. So thank you guys all for being here and watching or listening. We appreciate you doing that. Would love for you to subscribe to the podcast. If you feel like you want to give it a five star review, we would be very appreciative of that as well. If you want to give it a lower review, then reach out and tell us how we could do better. That would be something that would be interesting to us as well. And thanks for watching this time. We will see you again next time. And before we go, we always like to plug the Epic challenge, which teaches you guys how to acquire businesses for little or no money out of pocket and assets. That's@getepichallenge.com and we also like to plug our scalable company, which teaches people how to grow and put operating systems in their business. Ryan, is there a website that we have for that as well?

I believe if you go to Scalable Co. Scalable Co. We've got an accelerator opening up any day now, so definitely go and check out that. If you want to basically be able to scale your business without completely losing your mind, put some of these systems in place. Yeah, if you're an operator, let's get you some more free time back. Awesome.

All right, guys, thank you all for being here. Remember, subscribe. Review. Thank you.

You've been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for More information, go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

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