Consulting for Equity AMA with Jonathan Cronstedt

But you got to recognize that what prompts the opportunity for deals like this is either a lack of knowledge or a poor application of knowledge or any of those things that create the need or desire to reach out to people like us. So I've had a number of calls.

With people to present the opportunity for a half day consult.

And yet as of yet, I still.

Have not had somebody agree to pay $25,000 for a four hour consult.

So what I'm wondering is, would you.

Recommend that I continue to have these.

Conversations and refine them to while I'm able to present the value that obviously you guys can present and get those fees, or would it make more sense for me to have done five $5,000.

Consults in the meantime because I know I could sell those.

How much more successful would you be.

If you had lunch once a week with insanely successful entrepreneurs who share their biggest secrets on how they think? And Achie, grab your seat at the table because this is business lunch with.

Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss.

Hey, business owners. At Scalable, we know there are three key steps to getting your team clear on where they are in relation to your company's goals. The first step is to identify three to five metrics that tell the clearest story on how this team is helping the company hit its growth goals. The second step is to create clear targets so your team can declare in advance what winning looks like. And the third step is to measure these targets on a weekly basis. When your team is forced to interact with the numbers themselves, they begin to truly know their numbers. If you want to see how we track our numbers here at Scalable, you can get a free template@businesslunchpodcast.com dashboard. That's businesslunchpodcast.com dashboard. I want to bring up a good friend of ours, Jonathan Kronstadt. If you come on up, let's give John a hand. Okay. So who has questions for John? I think the most important thing is getting your first deal through, especially in a cfe. How do you present or bring the value to the company owner that he sees that he gets the confidence that you can solve his problems? How do you bring that?

So, number one, I would always go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated. So, so I would be asking and doing an inventory of your skills so that you know where you are at your best. And I would then focus on creating a volume of conversations in only the environment that you are at your best. Because the reality of it is in a deal like this, it all boils down to only one thing is the decision they make status increasing or status reducing, that are they going to look smarter for bringing you in or are they going to look dumber for bringing you in? And so I think that at any point you feel like you are selling them, you've already lost. If you are at a point where you're trying to drag someone across the starting line, they're not going to make it to the finish and neither are you. So that's where I think the key of creating a volume of conversations is so important. And creating them in an arena where you know you are effortlessly brilliant is going to be really important. Because again, if, let's just say, for example, I sit down tomorrow with an equipment rental company and if that guy is not like, holy cow, I know what you did, I know elements of how you did it, I want to reinvent this space and I want your help to do it. If that's not the energy, I'm already out. If he's like, yeah, I'm really successful in equipment rental, why don't you tell me what you think you can do? And I'm like, with that attitude, nothing. Good luck. See ya. Because it really is one of those things that if you're forcing that deal or you feel like you need to sell them on your value, odds are you didn't do the consult. Right. You didn't do the fact finding. Right. You probably talked and sold more than you listened and uncovered the pain points of why they want to talk to you, and I wouldn't do the deal. Does that make sense?

So you're saying you bring out in those conversations everything that they are looking.

For and what is it that they.

Will be needing out of here?

Yes. So if you're in sales mode and you're talking to try and display value, you've already started off on the wrong foot. You should be asking questions to truly understand what their issues are, because only then can you talk through what opportunities there are for you to solve those issues.

And I think by asking the right questions that cause them to see that they're like. Those questions create the realization that you have the value. So you don't actually have to be educating them with content. You're really educating them as to the value that you bring by the questions that you ask that reveal challenges that they have. Because then you're creating the wanting. If there's not a wanting that already exists, then you're having to sell. You should never have to sell. You should create wanting by asking Questions that then cause them to believe that by the questions you ask, you must be able to help. Yeah, like, if that makes sense. Like, it's really an important thing to think about.

If you think about the way that all conversations go with authority figures in your life, they're never selling you and asking how they can display value. You don't walk into your doctor's office. Hey, it's great to see. I want you to know I went to an amazing med school. I'm super cool. My kids love me, my wife loves me. I'm also big into nutrition. I exercise. Look how fit I am. I am ready to help you. They don't do that. You walk in and they're like, all right, where's it hurt? Okay, how long does it hurt? All right, what'd you do to make it hurt? Okay. Yeah, you probably sprained it. Go ice it. Go home. See you in a week. And that's the guy that you're going to go home, you're going to ice it, and you're going to call him in a week. But if the doctor came to you and started selling the out of you, you're going to be like, whoa, this is weird. So in that interaction, your only goal is to carry yourself in a way that you are insightful, you are inquisitive, you are more committed to them getting to their goal than maybe even they are, and you just want to understand what is keeping them from that.

I like that. That's really cool.

If I may add a comment, because I had this for a few years, you could hold on to the comments. We're only taking questions. Okay. I'm trying to phrase it as a question, and I'm like, I can't be here all night. Try the veal. Be sure to tip your waitress. So the question is, do you have people who everyone is brilliant at something, but it takes them a while to discover what they're brilliant at? So your answer was really good for someone who has discovered that, but some people haven't. What is the process you would recommend? Right, because that's the problem that some people have. You started your answer with, like, stage B. You've already discovered it, or at least you've done stuff to be able to look back and identify your brilliance. Right. But there are a lot of people who don't realize that they're brilliant. They have to go through a process. So if you could talk to those people. Sure. So the exercise that I would say is probably the most formulaic way to approach that. If you're trying to uncover your brilliance is the Dan Sullivan I don't know if it's unique strength, unique ability exercise, but it's really simple. It's just go choose 10 friends. And these should not just be your friends or your homies or gals, whatever you want this to be. Some people in business, some people in your friend group, some people that you know socially. I would probably not say family because that's really a fool's errand. But I would then write them an email that just says, hey, this might seem weird, but stick with me. I'm trying to work on uncovering why you're in relationship with me or what value you get out of being in relationship with me or what issues you experience that prompt you to call me for help. And I'd love to know what those thoughts are.

Also go through the Genius inventory that's in the program because that's a very specific four step process to help you discover that as well.

Or that.

Yeah. And I think the other thing you can do is say what am I interested in? Because again, within the materials that you've already got, we have consults. And the consults that are in there, I wrote down the questions and timestamped them as I was doing consults. So they're. They literally the. And the first, mostly like the first hour is the same in all of them. It's asking questions that help reveal the challenges that the people have, which also creates your credibility. So I'd say one thing that's really cool is you have the ability that a lot of people don't. To say I'm kind of interested in exits. I'm kind of interested in structure. I'm kind of interested in sales. I'm kind of interested in growth. I'm kind of interested in profits. I'm kind of interested in like whatever those things are, they already exist and it's done. It's like you're getting the consults based on hundreds of actual live consults and you have the actual questions that are updated regularly that are revealed there. So it's the same as sitting in with me as your mentor saying, why don't you ask them this? If you notice surrounded Berger rackets, you've got the thing in your ear and I'm just like, ask them about this now. Ask him about that. That's all in there. So that I think will help that I like the exercise, the Dan Sullivan exercise and I like the Genius inventory so that you really, the sky is the limit. You're completely open to Whatever you find interesting and if you're not already good at it, it's okay because I am good at all of that stuff and that's there. And then we have a whole bunch of people that you could partner with as well. And so just like for John saying, you know, I'm not sure about this whole consult thing, I just can I sit on a one and see what happens? And then he does it and it's like this is easy. So that hopefully will help.

Yeah. And I would also add that in my experience, and this is only my lens, my successes have been a terrible teacher. My failures is really where I learned a lot. So where I learned in my bankruptcy that I am not a great financial planner. I don't understand the stock market so I don't really play in those areas. But pound for pound you ask me how to create a marketing campaign or a sales strategy or something that's going to win that I can do in my slide sleep. And so that's an indicator. So it's one of those things where if you look at my failures that's how I learned I'm a terrible zero to one guy because I looked back at all of the projects that I would get an idea at 3am and I'd start cranking away on it and of course I'd go out and buy the domain and do a bunch of stuff and then never do anything with it. I started to learn the start is not really where I'm strong, the scale up is where I'm strong. That it's something where we've got product market fit markets validated. But how do we 100x this thing? That's where I love playing. So I would just say it's really digging into that self inventory. But also and to Roland's point the fastest way to find out is start doing consults. Like I think in this universe the structuring, the asset protection like all of that stuff is so cool. But I can tell you so many people I know that still haven't done the deal or done the consult because they're still trying to figure out how to get their Gibraltar entity to work with the St. Thomas one through a limited lifetime partnership. It's just like now trying so hard to save the tax money on dollars you haven't even made that you're not making any money. And by the way those structures are expensive to set up and maintain and all of those things. So it's like that's where I remember Roland very early on event he's Just like, just pay your taxes, figure out how to make more money. Because I was telling him, I'm like, I'm going to move. I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And he's like, or you could just do something. I was like, that's probably a better idea. So that's where I would just say, don't fall in love with the secondary or tertiary goals of doing stuff like this, because the time will come for those force multipliers in the business. I think. Like Grant said, pick your structure right off the bat. Don't get exotic and just start having conversations and doing deals, and the rest of it will take care of itself.

Awesome.

Cool.

Anybody else have a question? My question is like more of an illustrated problem. When you're meeting with a company and you're asking these questions, you're finding these pain points to show the value. I guess you have to tell them how to solve the pain points, right? Because if you just say, well, I can solve that, that doesn't really go very far. So in my experience, the issue that I'm having is you tell them how to solve the pain point, and then now they don't see your value because they have the information and they think they can go roth and do it themselves. What are your thoughts? Have you experienced that, or is this a fear that you have? Okay, why don't we role play that? I like putting John on the spot. So why don't you be. You be the client and create that challenge for John, and we'll walk you through how to solve it.

All right, somebody shout out a business. Let's do the improv stuff.

He's got it right.

Yeah. Give us a real example.

So what I should. This is a little harder for me because what I should really say is my business partner was the one at the table at that time, experienced the problem, but I'll give. Oh, just get a business partner. That's better. That can answer that for you. Yeah, I'd love to.

Thank you.

He is my better half, and that's.

Didn't want to be the guy to tell him so. Okay.

All right. Screw it. So marketing only company, and we're losing a lot of margin by subbing out our installation work or having another company do our installation work. We're thinking about doing this all ourselves. We hear you. Can. You can do that for us.

Interesting. So what are you trying to gain or capture by doing it yourself?

We're trying to capture the margin that we're losing to the installation company.

And when you look at the margin that you believe they're making, how confident are you that you actually know if they are making money? Or is this just something where you're trying to recapture margin you think you're losing?

I've seen their house and cars. We know they're making money.

You know they're making money. Okay. And when you look at, you know.

They got credit for now.

And when you look at the complexities of taking on operations and installations, is that something you've done before and are familiar with as far as time team process.

Aside from running a sales organization? No.

Got it. And are you really prepared to have the capital expenditure to dive into that world to recapture the margin? And have you done any type of projections on what that's going to cost you?

We've got a significant war chest of reserve that we are very confident will cover the expenses. Cool.

So I think really what we should probably do is a deeper dive into what aspects of the installation you're going to take on. How much of it you want to own versus how much of it you might be willing to either acquire an organization that's already doing it, or do you want to build it organically? We'd really need to dig into the financial models. And I'm happy to help you wrap a strategy around what the best way to go into this is. But as somebody who's doing really well in sales and marketing and who doesn't have immediate experience in installation, I think you're going to want to look very carefully at the season for your business, the exit potential and the multiples that a services or installation organization will trade on versus a sales and marketing organization. And make sure you're solving for the end game versus just margin recapture today for a very expensive adventure.

So you're redirecting them away from possibly working with you?

No, I just said we should work on creating.

We should do a deep dive Discovery questions are fantastic. You're not selling your consulting. You're on your back foot. It's perfect. But then how do you get into the weeds with them on how to do it?

Simple. You just basically say, so would you like to work on that together?

Yeah, absolutely.

Awesome. And here's the arrangement I typically have with companies like you. I'm going to have an interest in profits that we co create together. Here's where I'm going to help, here's where I'm going to play with you, and here's what we're going to do together.

So now that you've done that. Then you're like, holy crap, I don't know how to do that. That's what you're concerned about. So I was in that exact same position, and they said, would you mind? Just so we can get a better idea of what that would look like, just go ahead and write that process there so we can better. That's what we're going to do in the deep dive. I absolutely will not do that. That is a waste of your money. That's. Give me an rfp. Give me a proposal. No. This is something we're going to do together dynamically. And the value that I will bring will largely be figuring out what we need to create to execute the thing that we decide together is the most appropriate thing for us to go forward with. Got it. So that's it. That's on the line. Yeah.

I would say if you all look at your own life experiences, and I know for me, this definitely holds true 99.9% of the time, if I am asking somebody for a priority presentation, for a PowerPoint deck, for collateral, a brochure, whatever, it's really a polite off. It is. I don't really want what you're selling. I'm not comfortable enough to tell you I don't want what you're selling. I'm not going to pay for what you're selling. So just send me some things so you can feel like I was polite and we're done.

And I'll tell you that I agree 1,000%. And I will tell you that I have answered exactly what I just told you multiple times to people, Absolutely not. That's why we're going to do the deep dive.

That's a moment where you've got the frame wrong. They're like, yeah, do me a favor, dance monkey. I want to see if I like it. And then I might give you some money. And what you're supposed to do is flip that back and say, you know, I got to tell you, I appreciate what you're asking for, but if you don't have the confidence that I can work on this with you, I'm certainly not here for free consulting and just to give you the plan so you can try implementing without everything I know and have you screw it up so it's actually more.

And without making the investment that I know you're going to need to make to actually take the action. And I don't have any problem throwing that back out as I'll be doing you a huge disservice if I was to prepare the whole strategy for you and give it to you. Because I know from my experience you wouldn't do it even if you think you would. It's just human nature. Free has no value and I won't have nearly enough information to do it on. That's the whole point of doing the consultation so that we'll be able to dig in. And then if you're concerned about I don't know what the hell I'm doing, I never know what the hell. I mean, very seldom do I have any concept of what I'm doing. When somebody asks about something that I'm not familiar with, that super complicated structure that I put up for you. I don't know how to run that. That's four separate businesses that I have no idea how to run. But I do know that I am smart enough to go find the people who have the answers. So if they then say, we want to take this over and build a sales and marketing team around this thing so we can do it ourselves, you don't have to get into those weeds. You only have to know that that's the problem and that you have the confidence in yourself to be able to find the person who has the knowledge to do that. And I can connect you with that person. I got three of them off the top of my head. Right? So you can reach out to us and to our community and ask for that. Don't ever be afraid of that. There is always an expert. And if you do the deal and you do the pitch, remember, you're going to have the contract to do the equity. You're not going to have to solve that. Consult is really just a way of exploring what needs to be done. Then the doing of what needs to be done, you're like, okay, so you're going to need to hire a sales and marketing team. You need to have somebody that does this. You're going to have to have a great supplier. You're going to have to worry about how do we. How you deal with some current supply chain challenges that probably exist right now. I don't know if they do or don't, but you have to figure out how to deal with them. But. Right, and then we've agreed on the things that are going to have to be done. And if you would like me to help you with that, I'm willing to do it the way that I do that, as I told you before we went into the consult, is for equity. If you release, if you're willing to release some equity to me, then we can move forward and I'll solve all those problems for you. Now they say, yes, and you're like, okay, I caught the car, I barked at it, I caught it. Now what do I do with it? Then you're going to go out to the community and you're going to find out what does it cost to have those people do that for you, them. And then that's what you're going to organize for them. Right? So you don't have to have the answers. That doesn't have to hold you back because all you have to do is diagnose during the consult and then the actual execution of the diagnosis of the. Of whatever the steps are to make the diagnosis to cure. The thing that's the problem is what comes in the actual doing of the equity deal.

Like if you actually unpack the psychology of what's going on, it's a dick move for them to even ask you to do that because they basically walked into a meeting and they're like, by the way, we're sales and marketing experts. We built this unbelievably amazing company. We're so good at sales and marketing that we're going to go into installations and construction, which is dumb, but we're going to do that because we have a war chest of money. And because we have a war chest of money, we're obviously smart. Now, given that we are industry experts with sales and marketing in the industry, with enough knowledge to launch an installation company and enough money to do it, but we haven't done it and we don't know how. We'd like you to tell us how to do it in 30 minutes on a whiteboard. That's the stupidest thing ever. That's like somebody walking up to me and being like, hey, can you give me your seven point, no fail, double unicorn valuation strategy? It's, yeah, be in the right market and work really hard. Would you like anything else? I mean, it's just like, it's a question that's formed by somebody that's trying to get something out of you that no matter what you do, if it won't be that and they're not going to give you money for that.

And if you've had a conversation with them where it's gone back and forth a couple of times on what. But we're going to do this and we're going to that and say, then what you really need is somebody to vet your idea and take a deep dive on is the plan that you've already done. It's clear that you already have an idea of what you want to do. So really, the value that I'm going to bring to you initially is going to be is your plan something that makes sense and you're looking to validate your plan, which we can certainly do, and bring our knowledge to the fore to help with that, which we will do in a deep dive in the console. Right.

You will not hate life because of the deals you don't do. You will hate life because of the deals you do that you know you shouldn't have done.

And I speak from experience. I remember that when we first started the law firm, long ago, when I first started practicing, I took Grant out of another practice and said, let's go into business as lawyers. It'll be fun. And we would have people say, prepare the whole thing about what you're going to do and all that stuff. And I did that maybe 15 times. And none of them ever did anything because what I was really doing was giving them a complete plan to execute, which is your ip. So don't cheat yourself like that. But I want to know from you guys, does that help you get past the thing that is holding you back with people like that immensely? Yeah. Understanding this better. It was the wrong frame. It was too much selling in the way that you described it.

Makes a lot of sense. By the way, one nuance I would add, and I will give Roland 100% credit for this, because as a product launch consultant, it completely changed my day. I used to do that dance all the time. Like someone's, why should you run my launch and wind me up? And oh, I'm gonna razzle dazzle, let's go. And it sometimes would work because I had a pretty good personal brand, but Roland was like, dude, why are you doing like 700 calls a week with every affiliate that has every product imaginable that doesn't even know how to sell it? And I was like, that's just what you do. He goes, no. He goes, here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna tell Everybody that it's 10 grand. You're gonna sit down with them for a day. You're gonna walk through and create the entire strategy. Then you're gonna let them know that $10,000 is refundable and creditable, assuming they hire you to do the launch and run the playbook that you created. So they either leave with the playbook and they can do it themselves, or they're going to probably be so overwhelmed and really want to hire you, and they're going to be really motivated to save the 10 grand that they already gave you. So it's going to really help you close those product launch deals. Completely changed my game as a product launch consultant. My close rate went to almost 100% and it was one of those things that I now only had to show up if I was getting paid. So literally.

And even if you lost the deal.

You.

Version of what I teach now.

The easiest pitch in the world. So it's like if you are so afraid to say give me money for the consult, just say, hey, we're going to do this consult and I'm going to talk to you about the ideas and thoughts I have on how we can achieve your outcomes. And after that, heck, I'll credit it back to you for working together. That's fine.

Awesome.

In working with people, we all discover, right? People we don't want to work with. And I'm curious, what would be like the top three or four things that you have discovered about people you don't want to work with? And not like he's a jerk, but more like subtle in terms of acumen or is it personality? What are, what would be the top three or four characteristics of people you never want to work with? Laziness, arrogance, entitlement. I can deal with almost all three of those. But if you add an element of stupid to any of those three, it's over. Like that. That stupid amplifier is one. One where you just cannot get past it because you will sit down to have a business conversation and you can't even have a business conversation. But I would just say all of those for me are qualitative elements that if I feel like someone's looking for someone to do the work for them, not with them, I'm out. If I have somebody that we don't agree on the strategy, I'm out. If I have somebody that is, they've got such limiting beliefs that if i10x the company, it's going to freak them out, they're going to panic and try to blow it up every step of the way because they're not comfortable. I'm out.

And I'm going to add a couple to that that hopefully will help too. Is unethical. Meaning, which in my book isn't just they're out to steal people and do nothing. It's also people who aren't customer centric. To me, it's unethical to represent yourself, to sell something to people where you're like, we got them to do that. Haha. And how many did we convert on that when they're not really interested in the customer, they're only interested in the money. And that's a lot of people. And so that's a big no right off the bat because, number one, I'm customer centric, and so that's not a match culturally. And number two, the most successful businesses are customer centric. And so I'm going to have a hard time, uphill battle, lots of headwind to help them out if they're not really first focused on how do I serve the customer. And then the second thing for me would be they're not coachable, which kind of comes to what you guys were talking about. Like, if they already know all the answers and they're not listening to me and cutting me off to tell me how much they know while I'm trying to coach them, then they're not coachable and I'll call them out on it. I'll give them one chance at that. And then if I see that is continuing, you will not have a successful relationship with those people and they will not be happy with your services no matter how great you do. And then the last thing for me would be people who either are litigious, meaning they have a history of actual litigation, or they have a trail of broken relationships and bad partnerships, and they can't talk good about anybody that they used to be in business with but aren't anymore. It's a great indication of not going to be a successful relationship. I think we had an online question back there.

Hi, online.

All right, guys, a few questions from Zoom. This is from Joe.

A hypothetical.

If a business owner is already willing to do a baseline deal for growth and for consulting for equity, but he refuses to pay for the half day.

Growth consult, will you still take the.

Deal since they have no skin in the game yet?

I'm hoping you ask that before all of these examples, because the answer is clearly no way. Yes, they are subject to your process for selling and onboarding. You are never subject to their process of buying. There's always a line to see the guy at the top of the mountain. There's never a line to see the guy at the bottom.

Yeah. And you'll frequently run across people that want to short circuit the process and say, I want to just give you equity now. And my answer to those people very clearly is, I don't know if I want it. The whole purpose. That's why we're going to do the consult. I want you to invest in yourself. If you're not willing to Invest in yourself by doing the consult, then I don't know that we'll be able to work together. If you're not willing to invest in having me help you, then that tells me that you don't value what I have and that you really don't value your equity. Because why on earth would you give away equity in your company, the most precious thing that you've got in your business, to somebody that you're not willing to pay to have a consult with? And we may be able to solve your problems in the consult and you decide you don't need me at all, but neither of us is yet fully informed enough to know if we should be partnered up with me having equity in your business. So that's how we do this.

And in that example, I am 99.9% confident that he has no money. And he's looking at you as the monkey that's going to do all of the growth. And that's why he's like, yeah, take the equity, but I'm not going to give you a dollar. Yeah, that means I need all of my dollars and I need you to bring some magic.

And I probably have unrealistic expectations that you're going to be my savior.

Perfect.

Hey, business. Such listeners. We're going to get right back to the show, but Roland wanted me to invite you to a brand new training that he's doing on acquiring businesses with no money out of pocket. It's something that he's talked quite a bit about on the show, but he's doing a free training where he's going to walk through the entire process. So if you want to get access to that, go to businesslunchpodcast.com EPIC. That's businesslunchpodcast.com epic. And you can get signed up.

And then a kind of a logistical.

Question for the client. How do you ask them to prep for the meeting?

Do you tell them they have to.

Bring financials, fill out a questionnaire, anything like that? This is good because that was something you were asking.

It's interesting because the one thing that Roland said that completely changed my thinking around it, and it even goes back to the example we were talking about the client asking you guys to craft an entire strategy beforehand is I was like, roland, do I have to review all this stuff in advance? And then he goes, no. He goes, why would you review everything in advance and get them to send you a whole bunch of stuff and ask you to review, review stuff and whatever. Like now all of a sudden you're just working for free before you even have this consult. That's not what this is about. The consult is really the audition for this client to decide if you want to work with them. So as it relates to getting prepared for the consult, it's. This is your time. What do you want to talk about? What do you want to explore? What's important to you? What pains are you experiencing?

And in fairness, I learned that From Dan Kennedy 12 years or so ago.

I remember I said it up via fax.

We spent. Yeah, still fax only. It was $18,000 to go and sit in Dan Kennedy's basement and be trapped and eat at smoothies. Atkins bars was what he served for lunch. But. And Dan's, you know, mean old Dan Kennedy.

He's.

If any of you guys don't know him, he's a character and also very smart. So we did a consult with Dan, and he was like, you need to know what you want to ask and what you want to get out of this before. Before we meet. You will get the most out of it if you have everything that you want me to review prepared and ready for me when we get together. So what I will tell them is I will absolutely not look at anything beforehand. And if they're like, why not? I'll be like, because you're going to send it to me over 16 emails that I'm going to lose and then have to do a search and find. And I'm going to spend all of your four hours looking at a bunch of stuff that might not be relevant. So what I want you to do is have everything that you think might be important to getting your issues resolved for me to see. And that will make them be organized. You'll get only what you need to see. Because they're going to be thinking, man, I got to use my four hours because it's a lot of money, and they will come organized and give you only the things that you need. And then we can look at that there. But that's part of the time. It's not like we'll do 4 hours live and 16 hours reviewing your stuff beforehand.

And you got to remember the brilliance in how Roland is laying this out. All of these steps are training and indoctrinating your future business partner to what life is like with you. If you're running around like a golden retriever for this meeting, they're going to expect you to be at their beck and call for every single thing that happens in their business and their life. And I don't think that's what you want. So if you do this consult in a way where you set them up, that's the expectation that they can send you 17 piecemeal emails that you're responsible, responsible to review that you have to be brilliant on a whiteboard for a strategy that they haven't thought through. All of these things are teeing up what your future looks like. So if you miss those steps, all you're really doing is signing yourself up for something that's just going to be really painful.

By the way, that complicated diagram that I put up that was 100% drawn by the client. I was just asking questions and it kept getting bigger and bigger. Mine is a combination of, of the cultural match that Roland talked about, but also readiness, because there's leadership readiness, follower readiness, organizational readiness. So what's your question? Yeah, so my question is, how do you make sure that they're ready for your advice?

Simple. Do they follow the steps? If somebody comes to a consult after paying you and you have a great conversation and you identify a lot of people, pain points and hidden opportunities that you can help them actualize and they're excited to work with you after that they're ready, they're following those steps. They're going through this in a way that has you excited to work with them and them excited to work with you.

And if it doesn't follow through that way, then what do you do?

Bail. Find another one.

Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. What'll happen is if you. And this was really important with Kent because Kent was. If you guys remember from yesterday, Kent was doing lots of consults and getting paid and not getting really any opportunities for equity. And we just change the pre frame to I do that kind of as a joke. Right?

It's.

So listen, when we do this, my evil plan and I literally rub my hands together in an evil fashion, my evil plan is that I'm going to razzle dazzle frazzle. You're going to be so impressed with what we do that you will decide that you can't possibly live without having me own part of your company. That's my goal in doing these things. So I think if you tell people that up front, you've pre framed the expectation, you've let them know that it's possible, which is really bizarre that most people don't think things are possible that you don't tell them are possible. They don't even believe that it's possible to work with you on that basis. Right. So you let them know that in advance and then at the end of the Consult many times. They will say, okay, I'm really excited now. How do we talk about you working with me and me giving you equity in the company, and in which case, clearly they're ready. Or they'll say, they won't say anything. And then if you are interested in having equity relations with them, you can simply say, so I think we've got a really great plan here. You had a lot of breakthroughs. You said 1, 2, 3. Because they'll always have breakthroughs and they'll tell you what they are. So we decided this and this. I'd love to move forward and help you with this on an equity basis. Is that something that sounds like it's a fit for you? There's no harm in doing that. Worst thing can happen is they'll be like, no, you suck. I hate it. But it's not going to ever happen and that's it. Or they'll want to think about it and it's pretty simple. Is that helpful?

Hey, John, my question is, in your experience, what are the key distinctions between a cfa deal with 7 figure, 8 figure and 9 figure? Can you share some experience with us? It honestly doesn't change. The only thing that changes is your willingness and confidence to engage. Engage in more uncertainty or more perceived risk. So what you're going to do is you're going to believe that business changes at those levels, and it doesn't. It is the same moves, they're just applied differently.

I will say that your description of the meme does change. The more successful people in the larger deals are busy and they don't ask for as much. They're very. Usually because they have been successful, they're very clear on what they need and what they want. And it's going to be much more hit and run of you hear from them, I've got this challenge. What do you think? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We solve that and then they're gone until they have the next one. Whereas the lower end gets more. I'd say if it's under about a million in profit, it's significantly more that they feel like they have to get from you then the more successful. Busy. I got those people.

Yeah, good point. Thank you.

So, phobias, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you why I have. I quit consulting. It's the only thing I ever quit, ever in my entire life was consulting. Had a great partner who was super well known. He did ops, I did sales and growth. Right. It was a great relationship. But I was diagnosed with give a disease. So how do you manage that? So I've learned that you can give a equal to or less than your client partner, but if you give a shit equal to or greater than which for sure, in every single deal we touched was my problem. How do you handle that? Like, how do you long term.

Pace.

Yourself where you're not outpacing? This may be specific to me, but that's the area that I'm like, I really don't want to get into this because what if I'm going to be the guy? Let's go, let's charge hard. Let's.

So I can tell you for me, and this is only my lens on the world, if I am not willing to give a and at times give a more than the people that I'm partnered with, I won't do it. When I joined Kajabi, I was like, okay, I'm coming into a company that already has a history before me. I don't care what it takes, I'm going to win. So it was late nights, early mornings, weekends, whatever. Like I just reward was so great that I didn't stop to think, is it super equitable or perfect or am I caring more, am I caring less? I think that the only thing you need to ask yourself is if it's prompting resentment and it's going to spoil the relationship, then it's time to reevaluate. But if you are are doing something you want to be doing, like, I was never begrudging of it. I was never mad that I was the guy in the Facebook group. I was never mad that I was the guy on a Saturday morning trying to figure something out for a customer. I loved what I did. So I never, I mean like, I'm the guy. I think work, life, balance, boundaries, it's stupid. Like all of the trends today of the quiet quitting and clocking out and celebrating, taking days off and dress like your favorite plant on Tuesdays, I think it's the stupidest thing ever. I'm watching the diligence of others that are capturing the opportunity that we used to value while we continued to rejoice and the ability to let it go. And so I don't like the idea of, oh, I'm only going to go as far as you go because that's the terms of our agreement. Like to me, that's the transactional person that's like, we have this amazing opportunity at 501. There's 4:59. Catch you next time. I just not my deal. I don't like to partner with people that think that way. But I would just say have that intuition of this doesn't feel right. Let's redo the terms of our agreement and have a discussion around it.

I think it's the cultural fit thing too, which is again, to me like one of the giant values of having that consult is for you to get a chance to see what kind of people you're dealing with. And I think you can figure that out there. If you didn't. I've got people that pay me over a million dollars a year that are too busy to do the things that we've agreed are going to be done. It's not because they don't care. It's because they're too busy to do those things right now. And we're working to try to figure out how do we free them up. But as long as they understand I'm there, ready to do the things that we've talked about doing, and they just can't do it right now. Neither of us has a challenge with it. I am mindful that it would be good to figure out how to get them the time to do those things if I'm going to continue to get that money, because I won't take it for doing nothing. But I also am comfortable that if you're ready, willing and able to do the thing and somebody else isn't interested or doesn't want to do it, that's okay. And here's the weird thing, is that you guys just being here, you're in the top 10% of the thousands of people a month that go through our challenges and our programs because most people don't do anything. I don't feel bad about the people that don't. I used to, but now I don't. Because the way I've rationalized it is that I invest in lots of books and trainings and even masterminds that I then reprioritize or just don't get or I think it's cool. And at some point I hope that I'm going to get to it, but I might or might not be able to. That's okay. I don't begrudge any of the people who I invested that money with. And it's to me, it's the same thing with the consult. And the equity is I am here for you, to serve you. And so if you care less than I do about your business, that's okay. As long as I am in integrity with my service ethic. I don't know if that helps. But that actually really helps. Thank you.

Yeah. I think the upside element is really important. Like if you're begrudging doing the work and you're looking for that tit for tat, it probably means you don't have the upside. That's exciting. It probably means it's more just like a fee for services job sort of thing. Not I am creating and manifesting my destiny through this vehicle. Yeah.

And I think this is why Epic just crushed it for me. Right. Because we bought this company, it's wholly owned subsidiary. It's been amazing. But like we sit down and we're like, we're going to do this. And they're like, we can't do this. I'm like, I guarantee you we can do it. It was a totally different experience. So that's again a huge win. Thank you for that.

I think that's the other thing too that all of us need to accept. Like when you're going into a consult, that is happening because something is broken, something is out of balance, something is not working. If there's nothing that's up, there's probably not a lot of opportunity. And so you have to accept that, that it might be small tweak that you can solve effortlessly because of your experience and knowledge and just boop. And now it takes off like a rocket ship. Or it might be a deal where you're looking at, wow, this is going to be a real mess for two years. But man, if we solve this, this reinvents the whole industry. But you got to recognize that what prompts the opportunity for deals like this is either a lack of knowledge or a poor application of knowledge or any of those things that create the need or desire to reach out to people like us. So I've had a number of calls.

With people to present the opportunity for a half day consult.

And yet, as of yet, I still.

Have not had somebody agree to pay $25,000 for a four hour consult.

So what I'm wondering is, would you.

Recommend that I continue to have these.

Conversations and refine them to while I'm able to present the value that obviously you guys can present and get those.

Fees, or would it make more sense for me to have done five $5,000 consults in the meantime?

Because I know I could sell those. So what do you think is a better route? I'll let you start this one.

The only reason you're not selling the 25ks is because of your thinking. So if you believe you can sell a 5k, sell the 5ks and then sell a 10k and take the steps up. It truly is in your head. I knew that because for me, it was as well. And I rationalized the 25k, while friends of mine are charging 150 that I really want a higher volume of those so that I have more deal exposure. But I'm sure that subconsciously there's something that tells me that I don't think that it's worth 50,000 or 100,000 or whatever, because I do look at friends that are charging 100k, and I'm just like, man, that's a lot of money. But I can easily add a million dollars to somebody's business. Like the most of the businesses I consult with. It's not that hard to do that. So I have that. So I'm telling you from my own experiences, I picked 18,000 when I first started, just randomly, out of thin air, because Dan Kennedy charged. Actually, it wasn't randomly. It was because Dan Kennedy charged that. And I was like, dan can charge 18. I can charge 18. And then I ran.

The reason he moved it to 25 is because he's actually got better things than the Atkins bars. The big change was the lunch cost.

Mostly in the cost, 100%, but that's where I am right now, and that's comfortable. And same thing with our Masterminds. We charged 25,000 forever. And we tried. We moved it to 100 and we sold 100k things. And we just didn't feel good about it. The people felt good about it, but we were just. We felt like we couldn't do enough to make us feel good about. That's all in your head. So truly, the only reason those people. If you can present the value, there's no reason that they won't do that. It's how comfortable and confident you are when you're having those conversations with them. I believe, in my experience, across a whole lot of people that have done it. So, yes, do the one that you feel comfortable with to start and then work your pricing up.

Yeah, honestly, it's. Thank you. Your system. Tweak accordingly. I can tell you this. If someone's like, hey, I'll give you $5,000 for a half day. I'm just gonna be like, no, I don't want to do it. I'd rather watch Netflix or whatever. Like, I just. It doesn't excite me. But if someone's like, I'll give you $25,000 for a half day, I'm like, this could be cool. This will be better than Netflix.

It's also, it's also a qualifier. So it's. I know that you're willing to invest that in that you might also try doing. I don't do this, but you might try doing what I suggested John do early on. You might say, and I'll apply that towards anything that we do going forward. Because if you retain me, I think you're 75 grand to be retained to do the exit thing. And when you decide to move, not if, but when you decide to invest, not buy, when you decide to invest in having me help you with the exit, then we'll just apply that towards that and maybe that will make you feel better about it. But it's all in our heads.

Yeah, it's just like anything. If you walk in the gym today and try to deadlift £500, you're going to break everything. So it's. If 5,000 is comfortable, cool. Start with the weight you're comfortable with, pick it up, work with it, how does it feel? And then if you're bored with it, then step it up, try something else. But the key thing is that you're already having those conversations. So what I would say is learn why they said no. Did they come back after they said no? Replay those conversations and see where in that process you lost them. There's a lot of learning in the conversations you've had that'll inform the conversations you want to have. It's actually a follow up on his. Then how do you determine how much to give in the consultation versus I.

Don'T hold anything back.

Okay.

If I can solve something there also I am there 100% to serve. And even when they start talking about how can we do the deal, I will put them off and I'll say I'm here to serve you right now. Would love to talk about that later if it's good. But let's let this whole thing go through and see what happens so that you can make a good decision at the end.

Yeah, everyone always thinks that the idea porn is where the value is and then they're not going to need you. It's just not the case. The execution is everything.

Let's toss it right back here and then we'll, we'll take a quick break. So I have a paid ads agency, so I'm the technician. And now I'm moving more into the strategic advisor.

I have a lot of people that talk to me that need your help.

Okay. We should talk. And so I'm going into the like the range now where I am Able to provide a lot of value strategically. And then the positioning of the agency owner is like very. It's getting messy and there will be a lot of agency related questions or execution questions when I'm doing the consulting. And so any suggestions or ways I can separate those or make it so that I'm not integrated on the agency side, which I'm not operationally.

What's your positioning when you're going into these conversations?

First it comes as consulting and then it's like consulting in what regard?

Guard. What are you working on?

Growth. So I'm responsible for front end acquisition.

Okay.

And so what will happen is that someone's underperforming, agency's not working, a media buyer isn't working. And so then the. My agency comes in from an execution standpoint and so I'm doing consulting on the growth and strategy and then there's the actual execution part of it. But there's overlap. And so I notice the devaluation of that because I end up being like looking like a cog because the agency's replaceable. So trying to figure out how to.

Separate that to me, and I don't know Roland's thoughts are, but to me it sounds like a positioning issue because you're in the business of doing a thing that is commoditized.

Yeah.

And Dan Kennedy, at one of his earliest speaking gigs, he offended a woman that actually asked for a refund because he was at a swag event for, for companies that make like pens and backpacks that you hand out at trade shows. And he gets up there and he's. Everyone in the room of course is afraid that they're in commodity businesses. He's like, by the way, if any of you are in a commodity business, get out. And this woman got so angry that she stormed out of the room, asked for a refund and went home. But what he went on to talk about is you have to be able to repackage what you do so that it is not a commodity. So that's where I think the idea of value based pricing in software right now is all the rage. That you'll find a company that sells Exit Pop Exit Intent software and they'll sell it for 50 bucks a month. And then you look at Bounce exchange that charges 25, 100, 500 grand a month if they're delivering the value that having an opt in thing drives for that. So I think when you look at the conversations you're having and being very clear on what you do, that's going to really change the Conversation. Because if you're getting pulled into that, it's because at some point you indicated that's what you do.

Yeah. And you're not controlling. I think it's how you're framing it going in. And if somebody was asking me weed like questions when I wanted to focus on strategy things, I would say, look, before we do any of that stuff, one of the reasons that I believe that you're having the challenges that you're having right now is that you have things out of sequence. And so what we're really here to focus on is the strategy that will lead to the execution. Because if we just talk about the execution and we're executing the wrong strategies, then we're wasting our time. So I don't want, I want to have your permission to table that so that we can focus on the thing that is actually the most important. That stuff is easy. This stuff is hard. Let's tackle that first.

Everybody that wants to fix ads doesn't actually want to fix ads because click costs are not that fixable. It's really a funnel issue. The ads are never the problem. But everybody wants to fix the ads because the rest of the stuff, stuff requires work.

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