Empathy And The Art Of Negotiation, With Chris Voss

The identification of a negative emotion diffuses that emotion. It's the most effective way. Not the denial of the negative emotion, but the identification of it. When I feel overwhelmed, overwhelmed is a version. Any negative emotion is a version of fear. So I call it out to myself. If I'm scared, this is exactly what happens. I'll say to myself, I'm afraid. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. Act it. I'm not afraid.

You're listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is your seat at the table. Hey. This is the producer of the show, Darren Clark. And we have another great episode today. Our guest is Chris Voss, who is formerly the FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator. He's also an American businessman, author, academic expert, and CEO of the Black Swan Group. If you're ever making deals advocating for your business, clients, team or family, this is a great episode. So let's get stuck in and be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening. And here's Roland.

Hey, everybody, Roland Frazier. Welcome to another episode of Business Lunch. And I'm super excited. We have the wonderful Chris Voss. And Chris, I told you the story. We met for the first time in person at Joe Polish's Genius Network. Mastermind Joe, super awesome, friendly, giving guy. And you were there kind of as a surprise. And we got to chat and I told Chris, I was like, man, your book was literally by my side when I was negotiating the sale of our last company. And it made all the difference in the world. Cause we got to a sticking point and I mean, it went all the way up. Like it was a big enough company that we weren't dealing with the CEO to start with. We were dealing with some people that were part of the acquisitions team. And we had gone through the first level of people and the second level and the third level. And this sticking point was like, really a challenge. And I'm in Africa and this is kind of our last ditch effort at this. And I'm on a weird satellite phone because I'm on safari with my family and Ryan Dice is in someplace else and the guy's in the uk and we're on the phone and they're like, okay, this is the last run at this. We're going to get the CEO of the company on and he's going to have to make the call. And I'm like, where the heck is my book? Where's my. Okay, I got my Chris Voss book out. And in the back you've got that awesome cheat sheet kind of thing, right? Where it summarizes. And so I'm sitting there going, how am I supposed to do that? And all the other things that are in there. And daggone, if it didn't work right, and it just came down to it being a good. Like, having a good strategy that Chris has articulated for everybody in that book. If you don't have that book, you're insane if you don't get it. And also, I recommend you get the audiobook, because I like the. I feel like I'm with you, you know, when. I feel like I've got my coach when I'm doing that. But just for those of you who don't know Chris. And then I'll shut up and let him talk. I'm just excited because you guys have no idea how much value he brings. But, Chris, I'll let you tell, you know, the little quick story about yourself. I know you were FBI negotiator. You did all these deals, and the stories in that book are just insane. And you're negotiating literally life and death. And I love one of your things was like, you can't say, send out half the people. Like, that's not splitting the difference. You know, we'll just send out half the people. Or, you know, what shoes should I wear? I'll just wear, you know, my left foot. I'll wear this one, you know, and the right foot, I'll wear the other one. I'm deciding, but will you give us a quick blurb about yourself? And then I want to talk about some specific things that you're doing now and learnings you've had during this time.

Yeah, I was an FBI hostage negotiator. I was FBI's lead international kidnapping negotiator. And we had one situation that didn't turn out the way that I wanted it to. You know, I talk about it in the book, and when we decided we did everything we knew how to do and it wasn't enough, I said, well, we just got to do better. So I negotiated my way into Harvard Law School's negotiation course. You know, great people up there, and their fundamental understanding of empathy was the same as ours. Empathy is not agreement. It's not. Not at all. You don't even have to like the other side to be able to exercise empathy with them. And I said, wow, you guys think about this the same way we do. And so I went through their course as a student and then as an instructor, and they said, you know, you're doing the same stuff we're doing. The stakes are different. But the dynamics are the same, and. And that's really when I started to bring it out with my son Brandon. He and I brought this stuff out into the business world and never split the difference. Has done really well. We get to meet cool people like you, and we met Pedro, and we get to meet cool people.

Yeah. As a matter of fact, just so you guys all know that we all do this stuff. You and I were talking about a challenge that you're either about to do or have done. I know. Just a few weeks ago, right?

Yeah, we're going to do it. I mean, it just makes too much sense.

Yeah, that's really cool. And I have a wonderful bottle of Four Roses bourbon over there as a result of it. So that's nice.

That's some good stuff, right?

It is some good stuff. So what have you seen? You and I were talking earlier this morning about this, but what have you seen that is kind of, I guess, just in case somebody hasn't read your book, would you talk a little bit about the how am I supposed to do that? Thing? And then go into the nuances of what you've learned and how you've kind of tweaked that to add additional calibrations since this pandemic has happened?

Yeah, sure. How am I supposed to do that? Is one of your best answers. We refer to that as a version of no. It's a great skill to use. It's a calibrated question, starts with the word how, particularly in a pandemic. Because great negotiation is about great collaboration. And how am I supposed to do that? My son Brandon once said, it forces the other side to take a look at you. It's forced empathy. I mean, you use empathy because you want empathy in return. You want someone to demonstrate empathy with you. And if someone's really coming on you hard instead of just saying no or walking away from the table, which a lot of business people do, they get upset. There's a lot of name calling or just withdrawal. When you say to somebody, how am I supposed to do that? And you say it not an accusatory way, but in a deferential way, because there's great power in deference, and it makes them look at you and see you as a human being and see your situation and rethink what they're doing. It's not what their answer is. It's a thought process that you put them through. So that's really the purpose of great negotiation. Hostage negotiation was about, we got a terrorist. We're going to make him collaborate with us, whether he likes it or not. And business negotiation is about great collaboration, even if the other side sees you as an adversary. The situation you were talking about, you needed to make them look at you in a different way. And that's why you use that skill. Right.

And so the thing that you were talking about with respect to the pandemic, the little kind of extra tweak, would you share that?

Yeah. So we've evolved it up a little bit. In the old world, if you were pre Covid PC, everybody assumed that when the negotiation was over, their normal life was still continuing. So now, in today's environment, nobody knows what normal, what, what does a new normal look like? What's it going to look like in six months? It's far more uncertain. So you can use a calibrated question. And now we refer to it as a thought shaping question instead of how am I supposed to do that? It's really, you know, how do we work this out so that we both put ourselves in a position to thrive after this is all over? You're putting a different image in somebody's brain with the second half of that question. You're shaping their thoughts into a vision of how do we thrive when this is over? Because it will be over. This too shall pass has been a truism since mankind became civilized. This will pass. So let's put ourselves in a position to collaborate and thrive when this is over.

And.

And that's what we've really added into our negotiation approach to help shift people into a more positive mind frame, collaborative mind.

So I think that's really, really smart. And one of the biggest things that a lot of us right now are negotiating with ourselves in taking action and overcoming the fear of not knowing what's going on. The fear that the uncertainty that we've got right now. How do you negotiate with yourself using like, how do you negotiate with yourself to get past fear, procrastination, all of that stuff?

Yeah, well, the big thing, and I did that yesterday because I had a long drive on a road where I had intermittent cell coverage, which was a good thing because I told a friend of mine, I think it was a sign from God that I should be looking at the countryside as opposed to making phone calls. But I caught a migraine just before I went, which, you know, shifts your mood. When I got home and stuff was bothering me, you know, my house is kind of my home base. It makes me feel good to be here. As I'm approaching the door, the negotiation in my head shifted from this is Happening to me, to. For me, you know, and, you know, that's, that's. And it was an instant mind shift, you know, this challenge, you know, whatever I'm faced with, whatever is holding me back, whatever is frustrating, frustrating me is. It's either happening to me or for me, you know, frustration. I hate frustration. Or frustrations in education. Frustrations and opportunity. You know, there's a number of different ways to package gratitude into your head or the reality of your circumstances. I mean, I, you know, I've been in the third world. I've been in places where people didn't have running water. I've been places where colleagues were murdered after I left the country because it was so dangerous, right? I woke up within 10ft of running water today. I managed to get out of bed and get a drink of water, and I didn't have to change clothes. I didn't have to walk through a village. I didn't have to bring the water back in an urn to my house. I mean, I got it pretty good as it is. And so sometimes, just a recalibration, whatever works for you in your brain, because the world is. The universe is on our side. Our survival mode is wired so that we don't feel that way. But in point of fact, it is on our side.

So what happens when you're a little over, when you're overwhelmed? Like, this is a good example right now. A lot of us are home, but there's 20 billion things to do, it seems like, because so many people have things going on. And you've got a challenge going on. Do you have a link for that?

Well, our challenge is gonna take place after the first of the year because we decided that having survived Covid and thrived through the situation, we're now in appreciation celebration mode for the last two months of the year. Good.

There it is. It's blackswanltd.com home. That's where it's going to be, if it's not there already. But I want to talk about overwhelm, and I'm really curious as to how you apply the negotiating stuff that you've got, because I think a lot of us are saying to ourselves right Now, I got 21 things, plus all these other things. How am I supposed to do that? Right. How do you answer that for yourself?

And I got to do that to myself sometimes too. I mean, so this is neuroscience. The identification of a negative emotion diffuses that emotion. It's the most effective way. Not the denial of the negative emotion, but the identification of it When I feel overwhelmed. Overwhelmed is a version. Any negative emotion is a version of fear. So I call it out to myself. If I'm concerned, if I'm anxious, if I'm frustrated, it's a version of fear. And I know that every time I call it out, it diminishes it. You know, I'm my own laboratory. So if I'm scared, this is exactly what happens. I'll say to myself, I'm afraid. I'm afraid. I'm afraid. After that, I'm not afraid. You know, every time I call it out, it diminishes it. Yeah, it dials down the negativity in my brain. I don't. Don't deny it. The 2 millimeter shift is from the denial to simply calling it straight out.

That is huge. That really is. Because then you get it. You're not just overwhelmed, you're afraid. I love taking it back to that level. That's great.

And then bang. Then if I deactivate the negative, then my positive part of my brain will kick into gear every time.

I love it. Now, if we happen to meet someone, I get more and more people now asking that question. Initially, this. Would it be ridiculous to think that we could work together? And things like that. Which is funny because that was one of the first things you texted me long, long ago. And I was like, that's. He's using that thing to get the first no. That's really cool because you said that people who give a no, that. That disarms them and their walls fall down. Would you talk about that for a second? And then I got a follow on question.

Well, when you say no, you feel safe and protected. That's just the reality of the situation. Plus, it's actually. It's easier to say no when you're fatigued. It's very hard to come up with any other answer when you're tired.

Right.

So, you know, I've had clients say to me, you know, the other side.

They'Re in no mode.

You know, everything we say to them, they say no. And I'm like, cool, just change your questions. And they're like, no, that's too stupid. And actually, no, it's not. So, you know, I don't say to somebody, do you agree? I say, do you disagree? You know, I don't say, does this look like something that would work for you? I say, is this a stupid idea? You know, I use this on Jack Welch to get him to agree to come to teach my negotiation class. You know, I use it on Shark Tank Robert Herjavec. Robert Herjavec, by the way, is a decent human being, generous, great guy.

Yeah.

And I use it on him to close, you know, to get a decision on some tickets to one of our courses. I mean, it works. It just works.

It does. Now if you are talking with someone who you see is familiar with your stuff and you're in a negotiation with them and you're trying to get. They're trying to get something that you can't give, and you say, how am I supposed to do that? Or let's say you're trying to get something from them and they say, how am I supposed to do that? That's actually my question. What do you say back to like you're on the. I'm kind of like putting you on the other side of the negotiating table with yourself because I want to know what's the counter negotiation measure to how am I supposed to do that?

Yeah. Well, the real issue is not as somebody using the tools. The real issue is what are they using the tools for?

Right.

So I can smell that pretty quickly and we all can. If your internal alarm systems are going off, they're going off for good reason. And there's a pretty good chance that you don't want to make this deal with this person or do, it's going to be painful long term. So my alarm bells are going off. You know, I'll do a couple things where I'll test the other side to see if they're going to open up to me. And if they're not, I'm just out. That's it. You know, my son, members of my team, we use these skills on each other all the time. We're collaborating. You know, if my son, if my director of operations, Chelsea, you know anybody, you know, my daughter in law is the chief of marketing. She's brilliant. If she says to me, how am I supposed to do that? What they're saying to me is like, look, this is a problem that you're not thinking through. You need to see this in broader terms. There's something here that you're missing.

Right.

So you know, they're trying to get me to think in a broader way.

Yeah.

So I'll sit back and I'll be like, wow, okay, okay. What am I missing? And I might say it sounds like I'm missing something here. It sounds like I'm ignoring your situation. I mean, I'm going to reengage in a different way if somebody says that to me. And I think they're trying to Cheat me or they don't want to collaborate. I'll say, look, this is how you do it.

Yeah.

You know, if you want, if you want the deal, here it is. Which in point of fact is the answer that you're looking for. And how am I supposed to do that? Because you need to know how firm the other side is without making them mad. And how am I supposed to do that? Let you know where they are firm without angering them. And most times in business deals to find out where somebody's firm, you make them mad, which then damages the relationship. I need to find out where you are without angering you, without insulting you. And that's the other nice thing about how am I supposed to do that? Because it helps you find limits without damaging the relationship. Yeah.

That's one really amazing thing about digging down into beyond the actual tactic of. Let's say that, is that it's truly about empathy. And empathy is about, like, to make a great deal, you need to be aware of what's important to the other people. We just made a ridiculous deal that everybody's asking, how did you guys do that? How did you do that? And it's because we knew that what the people wanted. We ask what's most important to you and what's most important to them was something completely different than money. Right. And money's not always it. So we were able to get this crazy great deal. It'll be eight figures of profit to us this year because we knew what they wanted and they're thrilled. Right. And they're not dumb, they're super smart. They just, we knew what they wanted and you know, you have to step back. So I think that's really great. I want to ask you a question. How do you influence the decision maker when you're working through a hostile intermediary or third party? A low level example would be working with like a used car salesman and the financial decision makers hidden back in the office.

Yeah, well, that sounds like what I used to do for a living, you know, because there's always a team on the other side. There always is. You know, I was a kidnapping negotiator. Kidnapping is a business. If it's a business, they have a boss who's not directly involved. He's a decision maker. They got a team and I got a hostile intermediary. And yeah, car dealers are a great example. Your intermediary, the hostile person is also, you know, they're the deal killer if you're not careful about it, you know, how you interact with them. Are going to be critical when I'm trying to get an upgrade on a suite and in a hotel. And the clerk of the counter's got to go. Got to go in the back to ask the boss if it's okay to give the suite. Boss is going to say, you know, I don't know, is this guy a jerk or is this guy a nice guy? You know, the clerk's gonna go back there and I say, hey, I get this jerk out front who wants an upgrade. I promised I'd ask. And he'd be like, yeah, no, no jerk gets an upgrade. Or she goes in the back here. She goes in the back and says, you know, this is pretty nice guy. You know, we got the. We got empty suites. Nobody's gonna be in him tonight, right? Oh, he's. He's a decent dude. Why don't we let this guy in there? I mean, it's the same kind of a thing. Never be mean to somebody. Could hurt you by doing nothing or could hurt you by how they characterize you to the decision maker, Right?

Yeah.

So how do you deal with them again? You know, proactive empathy. You know, I'm gonna seem like a jerk asking for this. You know, I know I'm gonna make your day miserable. How bad of a position do I put you in if this happens? Because the other thing the intermediary looks at is what position are they left in if they give this to you? You know, it's, It's. It's what we do with. When I'm working on an upgrade in a hotel on a regular basis. You know, how many people are going to get mad at you here if you give this to me? Because that's what's going to go through their mind if I do this, what's going to happen to me? What kind of a position does it put me in? So I recalibrate my question so that they go into the future slightly and they deal with it, and then they come back to me and we work together. So, yeah, that's how you do it. You don't precede this with empathy. How's it going to look to the other side? What's it going to do to them? Show them that you're taking into account and make your ask.

Okay, role play with me for a half a second. So you're checking into the hotel and I'm at the front desk because hotel upgrades happens to be one of my great passions. And I'm going to send you because I think you will really love it. My whole Breakdown of how I get upgrades and I would love to compare notes with you. So I'm at the hotel and you've just arrived and you're looking for an upgrade. Mr. Voss, welcome. I see that you have your reservation here. We have a wonderful king room on the first floor by the elevator. It's a little noisy, but hope you enjoy it.

I am getting ready to ruin your day.

What's what? How is that going to happen?

Well, I know I'm just gonna seem like a self centered traveler who just doesn't care about you or anybody else and super entitled and I think I'm worth more than I ever am. If I ask you for something free.

Okay, what can I do for you? How can I help you?

How many people are gonna get mad at you if you give me a free upgrade to a suite?

That's great, I love that because then they're going to check inventory and very often they don't have to go in the back but sometimes they do. That's really cool. I always, you know what, and this is empathy.

Let me take a time out here too.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't always get a suite because the hotel I just came from was fully booked. But through that process I always get something.

I love it.

I have never not ended up in a better position ever.

That's awesome.

Through that process, you know, we connected like you felt like that. I realized that a lot of self centered people come through here.

Yes.

So what I want is to be better off no matter what.

Yeah.

I don't want my ask to constrain my options.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It's funny, I start with the line because most people will just when the person in front leaves, they'll just walk up. So I'll go up and I'll wait for them to invite me to come up so that they are on their time. Because a lot of times they'll have something they have to do and if you're up hovering over them it makes them feel stressed. So I wait for the invitation first and then I'll look for anything that I can compliment them on or build rapport. If they've got it's sincere, I won't do it. But you can almost always find something to compliment people on or on the name tag. Sometimes it'll say they're from somewhere and I'll be oh, you were from Saskatchewan. I remember I went up there and were you at the such and such there? And then that starts that rapport building of commonality. Then I say what kind of room do we have? And they'll tell me and I say that's great. What's your favorite room in the hotel? And then they get excited and they're like oh, I like the Carlisle suite. It's amazing. It's got this blah blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah. And I'm like oh that's great. That's really cool. What would it look like if I was to get upgraded to that suite, which I don't like as well as I like your thing saying I'm about to seem like a jerk, but I like that too. But I say I future pace them into give me a vision of what it would look like if you upgraded me to that suite. And so then that usually leads to well, I can't possibly do it because we're sold out. No problem. Okay then what's your second favorite suite? But very often it will be a collaboration then that they're trying to figure out how to work with me within the system to get me into that room because they're excited to share that. And that's been super cool. So that's been lots of presidential and imperial and such and such suites using that strategy. So I love that. But I'm gonna send you my thing too. And I love that.

I like that a lot. And one of the things I really love about your approach is we like to say vision drives decision. Decision. Dr. Yes. Your question is putting a vision in their head. First of the suite and then you didn't say can I have it?

No.

Which is a closed ended question. You said what would it look like? And that's a visioning question. And I could go on and on about how much I love about your approach.

It's super, super fun. Well, I'm just so happy that you took the time to come here today and you've got a tool or something like that we talked about that you're thinking you might share there is that.

Could you?

Yeah. Well we've got, and I can throw this into chat too. I mean we've got what we refer to as the negotiation one sheet. Okay. You can go get this download and I gotta tell you, we got a lot of free resources on our site. So exploit us, you know, get as much stuff for free as possible from the Black Swan group. But the one sheet is a great prep model. Fill out the one sheet. I want to tell you something. You're going to be and more prepared in a very quick period of time. We believe that there's a 7 to 1 rate of return every minute. Of preparation probably save you seven minutes in negotiation. Certain amount of preparation you could over prepare. Don't let over preparation keep you from the table. Fill out the one sheet rock and roll. Jump in.

I love it. Thanks again man. I really, really appreciate you being here today and taking the time to hang out with us.

Absolutely. My pleasure. Anytime brother. I appreciate I like working with you.

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