Good Ideas vs. Great Ideas with Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss

You're listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is your seat at the table. Hey, everybody, Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss here with a new episode of the Business Launch podcast. And we're excited to chat today about something that we've been kind of reviewing recently, Ryan, which was the difference between a good idea and a great idea. What would you like to start with chatting about that?

Yeah, I mean, specifically, I think, just to give some context, when we were going and looking back over the last couple of quarters, because we do our quarterly strategic planning and things like that, and it's always very introspective because we set really big goals and it's been frustrating because while we've seen growth the last couple of quarters, the growth hasn't been as much as we had projected it would be. So, yes, we're growing, and yes, things are generally fine, but it's not like the level of growth that it should have been. And what was tough, it's not like it wasn't one of these things where, like, oh, we had an unexpected competitor or there was another pandemic, or there was nothing we could really blame it on. And it wasn't that people were just being lazy. And so we went back and looked. The kind of the singular theme that emerged was we executed a tremendous amount of really good ideas. And the realization I had was, God dang, it's not bad ideas that kill you. It's all these good ideas. Because good ideas, there's been some good ideas that we've hung onto too long. There's been some other good ideas that we invested way too many resources in. And so a lot of what we're doing right now kind of is trying to figure out what's a better framework and process for distinguishing, you know, a good idea and a great idea. Because distinguishing a great idea from a bad idea is easy. Bad ideas are. That's why they're not that dangerous. It's clear when you see a bad idea, you're like, that's a stupid idea. Let's not do that. But how do we effectively avoid good ideas so that we can leave room and have capacity for the, you know, for the truly great ideas? That's kind of the big thing that we've been, you know, working on here. Happy to speak.

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Some of the things we've figured out, but I just want like, you got.

Any thoughts on that?

Like, when it comes to choosing the great over the good, is there anything like in your personal life that you deal with? Because we still got the 24 hours in a day. Right. So I'm just curious if you got any systems on that?

I wouldn't say in my personal because I mean, I've got my goals that I write down that I want to achieve. And then what I've evolved to more is really focusing on what are the systems to enable me to achieve those goals as opposed to what are the goals? Because you can chunk your goals down. You could say I want to read 52 books this year and therefore, if I read one book a week, I can see if I'm achieving that. But then there's no system for how you're going to do that. Like, how am I likely to read that book, the same thing for business is we want to make a million dollars this month. Then how are we going to do that? Well, we're going to sell stuff. Okay, but what is the system to be sure that the things that we're doing are working? So I'd say, like, one of the most important things would be what's the system going to be for us? I believe the challenge is not really in the green lighting because we have our growth scorecard and all the ICE analysis, the impact, confidence, ease. Is it going to pull a growth lever, all of that? And then we all sit around and say, these are the things we're going to do. So I think. And then I know that we say we're only going to greenlight these and they have to match our three big things we're going to do this this quarter. I think one of the biggest challenges for us is that we don't have a. How do we know when to kill the things that aren't working out like we wanted quick? Because that to me is the biggest thing is like, there's only a limited number of things that you can do at any given moment. So what's your system for identifying whether they are living up to expectation quickly so that you can let them go and not hang around? What have you guys come up with?

Yeah, so that was, I mean, what you touched on there is, I think, a critical addition that we made this time to prevent some of that. And that is kind of the just drafting of what is the hypothesis. Like, what do we believe the impact is going to be? So you talked about ice score, right? And ice, for those of you who don't know, I stands for impact, confidence and ease, right? So something that has a high and generally you're. You're scoring this on a. On a scale of like 1 to 10, right? So a 10 impact is like, this is going to be completely business changing, right? A 10 on confidences. We've done this 100 times and we know we can do it again, right? And a 10 on ease is like, this is going to be a total piece of cake. We've got the resources. We've got an abundance of resources. It's cheap, it's easy, it's fun. We can't wait to do it. Right? And obviously a one of those is going to be, you know, one of those is going to be the inverse. So that's the idea of the, you know, of. Of an ICE score. The problem that we ran into is when we were doing I scoring, you know, Everything, shocker. Everything that we came up with was pretty good. Right. When averaged out, everything was like, yeah, it's about like a seven, you know, or eight. And so there were a couple things that I think we're adding to this framework that are really helping. Number one is looking at each one of them. So I, C, E Impact, confidence, ease. And what we're realizing is that to be a great idea, it needs to be ranked highly across all of those. So very often something would have a relatively high I score. And that's because it was like, ah, massive on the impact. We think it's going to be easy, but we're not really confident. That's actually a pretty high risk thing. And so a lot of things that we chose were like, oh, this is a good idea. It was high on two, but not all three. And so kind of the first realization, like the separation between a good idea and a great idea is it scores high across all three of them. Now what high is for you may differ because some companies, some people are going to, they're going to be more critical. And so maybe a high score is a 7. Right. Whereas some it might be a 9 or a 10. Right. So I think it's about stack ranking them. But the biggest realization we went back and looked is there were lots of things that scored high on an average ICE score. So on average ice were high, but we looked like, ooh, confidence wasn't really as high as we thought it, you know, it wasn't as high enough to really double down like we did. Right. That was actually. It wasn't necessarily, you know, a bad idea. It was. But what, what separated from being a great idea to a good idea was that it was higher risk. So that's kind of the first thing. Do we have it across all of them? And if we don't, you're probably better off to just let that bake a bit longer. The second addition, which is what you said, is we need to clearly state a hypothesis. What do we believe will happen? And write it down. Right. And it's just a simple paragraph. We believe that if we do the following, it will achieve this result.

And what we manage, you'll know when X happens is a key to that. Right. The challenge too was that which we identified in our sheet when the team came back was that the hypotheses were not really clearly stated. I wish I had some of the examples because they were really bad. And I think it's because a lot of people just gloss over the hypothesis and don't think about how important it is. But if you don't say, I think if we do, and then identify what's the very specific activity and then say, here's the specific result we expect, and say that we'll know when this thing happens. If you don't do all three of those things very specifically, then you just have these general things that don't really tell you that much. Right?

Yeah. It's like, if we do this, then conversion rates will go up. We do this and sales will go up.

Yeah, we'll have more sales. We'll hit a million dollars this month.

Right. There's no mention of a specific number that that will generate. Nor is it. We'll get more leads.

I think was one of them that was in there. We think if we do this, we'll get more leads. Come on, like two more, three more.

Right. But the other thing is that timeline. When is it going to happen by? So if the difference between a good idea and a great idea is very often confidence, like, how much do we actually know? And when you're putting this vague stuff from a number, usually it means you don't actually know. You have faux confidence. The other piece, though, is when will this happen? And we didn't do that on a lot of them. And there was one. I don't want to mention the specific project right now. We will talk about this on a future podcast episode. It's just still a little bit too fresh. And frankly, there's some things that we're, let's say, loose ends we're trying to tie up right now that I want to make sure we tie up before we talk about it. But there's a particular project that we've invested a couple million dollars in. I mean, and you know, it. Merlin. It was kind of my. Like my baby. It was something that I was really working on, really excited about championing for a while. And because we never said, this is what it should get and it should do it by this time, it was just allowed because. And this is a biggie. It was a good idea. Right. Nobody would look, even retrospectively, you wouldn't look back and be like, that was a terrible idea. It's like, no, it was a good idea. So I think acknowledging that it's not the bad ideas that kill you, it's the merely good ideas. If you could just remember that and you get that takeaway. It's important. So now how do we do that? I believe the I score is helpful, but make sure that it's high across all three of them. When you're doing iscoring, make sure there's not just one person doing it. Do it as a group, and that every person who's going to be involved in that initiative is there. Because there were some things that got greenlit with like a really high ease. But it was like, stuff that I was going to have to do. I was like, that's not easy. That's freaking hard. I don't want to do that. So make sure that everybody who's going to be involved is there. Do it as a group. Have people do their scoring essentially in silence so that nobody is, you know, biasing anybody else. It's a good way to do it. But I think also just making sure, just because you have the capacity doesn't mean you have to take on the project. If it's not a great idea yet, let it bake. You know, if you've got the capacity, it's going to get filled by something great. And also great ideas. You know when the result is going to happen. So I think that was our biggest takeaway and it was frustrating. That cost us a couple million dollars to figure it out. But I think now that we have a framework and just a nomenclature, like a word to give it right. Is this a great idea or is this merely a good idea? Just that I think is going to be helpful.

I like it.

Cool.

The other thing that I was thinking about, I really enjoyed. Have you read Naval Ravikant's? I guess it's not his, but it's called the Naval Manak.

Yeah, navalmanak.

Yeah.

A guy went and took basically all of his tweets, which are pretty brilliant, and basically wrote a book around them, right. Like organized them and all this.

So it's back here and it's free, which is nice. There's a free PDF. It wasn't done to make money. It was done. You can buy it on Amazon. Cause they charge for stuff there, but basically you can go and just Google it. But he has a whole bunch of interesting things in there. And one of the ones that I thought really affects us because we were talking about comp recently, is this principal versus agency thing, principal versus agent. How do you get your people, who are your employees, to think like owners? How do you get the entrepreneur mindset instilled in them a little bit? And it's really interesting because I've had this as a challenge. Even with business partners who still think like employees, even though they are owners. And so they talk about, are you.

Talking to me, like, while I'm in The room right now. Is that what's happening?

But I thought it was interesting because obviously, the more the theory here, and I think it merits it works out, is that the more that we can cause the people who are in the company as employees, who are not owners to have an owner's mindset to think like owners, to do the things owners would do versus thinking about things like an employee, then the more aligned we are all. We all are towards achieving the things that we as owners want to achieve. So you can do that with comp. You can do that with phantom equity and profit participations and things like that. I just wanted to see if you had any thoughts about that generally.

I don't know, man. I think maybe I'm a little bit cynical on this, but I kind of think that there are. It's a spectrum, right? And on one end of the spectrum, you've got the just the crazy serial entrepreneur always starting something new. As soon as, frankly, any business gets any type of system and the invention of those early days are gone, they're onto the next thing, which that can actually be destructive in its own right. And then on the other end is the person who just wants to go and get a government job and clock in, clock out and never think about it, right? So I agree that there's a spectrum, but I don't think that there's as many people in the middle as we might want to think as entrepreneurs. I think that there's a lot of people who say that they want to be kind of treated like an owner and treated like an entrepreneur, but they don't know what comes with that. They don't know that. Like, fine, if you want to stake in the upside, that means that you also, you know, my thing is, you want to be a partner in the upside, you got to be a partner in the downside, right? So you want variable comp, that's okay, but we're not going to pay you a salary that's at market rate and then also put variable comp on top of that so that you can make even more, right? If you're saying, like, I want to be treated like an owner, then be like me, which is if there's no money, we get nothing. And if there's a lot, then we get more. And so, I don't know, I guess I've heard, like, lots of people talking about, oh, everybody should be on variable. Everybody should own stock. I haven't really experienced that creating, like, I haven't seen a comp plan create that mentality. I Think there are people who have it. And if you don't offer those people who are those entrepreneurial types of, if you don't offer them that incentive, they will leave. But I don't think it's causational, I guess what I'm saying. I don't think that it will create that mindset. I think there's people who have it, they need to be compensated as such. I think there's people who don't. And really you're kind of bad for everybody to do it, to pay them as though they are an owner or to even expect that of them, because I don't think they expect it of you.

I don't know.

You think I'm being too cynical?

No, I think that it has to go beyond money because we are in this for the money, but we are in it for really the freedom that money gives us to do things. The ability to set our own hours, to be our own bosses is really important for us. I don't think either you or I want somebody telling us what to do. So I think part of it is looking as you are interviewing somebody who is going to be part of the company to start with, to find somebody who is a person who takes ownership of things. And so I think you can ask them questions and see if they are a person who feels that they are kind of in the stream of things, being that their lives are not really their own to start with, that they're not taking ownership of anything. So it's a responsibility thing. First and foremost you need somebody who gets responsibility and takes ownership of their time, their success, what's happening in their lives, those kinds of things. And if you can get those people in, then it's what can they become invested in?

Because I think, hey business lunch listeners, I've been running my own business since I was 17 and I found that nothing slows down entrepreneurs more than this one pesky question. And that's what do I do next? And left unanswered, you find yourself stuck far below your potential, jumping from one shiny object to the next, perpetually wondering why other businesses are growing and yours is stuck. So that's why Scalable has put together the seven levels of scale framework. We'll give you the shortest path possible to go from a struggling startup to a high profit, high impact, exitable business. That'll give you the wealth and freedom you deserve. So stop wondering what to do next and take our free 3 minute assessment today at getscalable.com download and you can download a free guide to show you what level of scale you're currently at and how you can scale quickly and profitably to the next.

Lenny is a very small ultimate component of that. So what can they become invested in? Which goes to a lot of the things that are trending right now and what they say, you know, millennials are very focused on why am I here and what's the good. And that I think is the thing that drives that, that whole great resignation thing is that there are things that we all want that we would be vested in the success of the entity that is propelling us towards those things. More if more of those things were there. So what are those things? Well, work at home is to me a great example. An owner can work at home as long as the owner gets things done. An employee is supposed to come to the office and put in nine to five with a lunch hour and two 30 minute breaks. And that's what the world says they get kind of sort of depending on where you are. But so I think that's it is why are we doing this? Can we get buy in to the why our company exists? What are the benefits to me that I as an owner would want that are beyond money? Obviously I would like to have a share in the success of the company financially, but also I want the ability to move, to make my own decisions, to move up, to have control of these bits, to not be micromanaged, all of those things and to be part of something that is going to be fulfilling in some way. So I think it goes to like, if you really want to get outside of somebody just thinking about what's in it for me versus what's in it for the overall company. That's what an owner typically does. A good owner and the owner even sometimes will say, I know. And you and I have this conversation, right? I know that we should leave this much money in the company, but I want to take this much money out, but I'm going to leave this much money in the company because that's the right thing to do for the company. I know that doing this extra thing that increases our cost of goods sold by 10% is going to mean that we make less money, but it's going to mean a greater customer experience, which ultimately will mean that we have more customers referring and staying, which means we make more money in the long run. That's. Those are the decisions we want people to make. Right? So, so how do we create the incentives for them to do that? What do you think about that?

And I guess what I'm saying is I would maybe change the sequence. So to me it's, I want to see some of those in little ways, like see some of these like micro commitment, like micro ownership type things and then the incentives would follow. Hey, I see that you're this type of person, so let's put you on this track. I just think there's two tracks within an entrepreneurial type organization. Because I mean, look, if you go and work for a big company, you're not going to have this type of entrepreneurial opportunity. You're going to get on a career path and you're going to follow that, you're going to bounce around. But if you're working in a smaller business, an entrepreneurial business, in most of them, if it's still owner operated, like founder run kind of thing, they're going to look for the people who are like them and they're going to look for those people and to give them opportunities to be entrepreneurial, to be able to run a little piece of the action and hopefully participate in it. I guess my thing is trying to, if you, if you say we're going to create this incentive and this opportunity, everybody goes for it if there's any benefit, including those people who don't actually want it. So I would just change up the order. Like we had a guy who works for us, I'm not gonna give his name, although I'm complimenting him, but I didn't get permission. But we had a promotion and it was actually one of our email newsletters and some people were out of town, it was a little bit late getting it and I know Richard was like, hey, I don't want y' all to have to like work over the weekend so I'll get it done. And he was like, no, you know, I got it. Like this is my job, it's not that big a deal. Now there's a difference. Like we don't encourage people to work nights and weekends and anything like that. We want them to have a life. But seeing that he was willing to step up and do that and to take that ownership because he said this is the right thing for the company, that's like, oh, okay, that's ownership thinking right now. Somebody who's like, I'm always working nights and weekends, that's just somebody who's a martyr, Somebody who's angling. That's not what I'm talking about.

But somebody who said no and probably horribly inefficient, right?

Also yeah, exactly. But somebody who said no, no, I'm not planning to make a habit of this. I know you're not either, but this is the right thing for the company and the customer. I got it. That's what I'm looking for. So people like that, to me, they occupy a different category in my mind and in the company, where if there's an opportunity to take something on that does have a bit more ownership, a bigger ownership asset, that's the kind of people that we're going to encourage to go for it as opposed to just, hey, everybody at the company, here's this opportunity to do it. But I also agree with you. I'm thinking a lot in terms of compensation. I do think that if you build a general culture around things like we actually care about our mission and vision because all entrepreneurial companies are started because a founder really cared about something and wanted to make it happen. Right? So if you can bake that in, well, that's going to attract people who have more of an ownership mindset. If you can have more autonomy within the role, that's going to naturally attract people. So I see what you're saying. There's things like that that you can do. Whether it is being more mission focused, more flexible in work hours and work location, maybe the opportunity to take on certain projects in addition to. And to get a stake in those little things like that, to give people who want to take that path a chance to kind of raise their hand and say, hey, I want a shot at it, or I can function within this. I would just say the comp side needs to come after they've proven it.

I agree 100%. And I think that that's one good thing about having a probationary period or a trial period where you could perhaps, and I don't know because I'm not on the HR side of interviewing, but I'm guessing that there are some tests that probably exist that would help you to sort psychologically people who tend to think who take ownership of things. Because people who take ownership of things are going to think like an owner by definition. Right? So how do we find those people in our screening as we're interviewing and bringing them in? And then can we create situations where we'll see before we make a permanent hire decision during a probationary period, can we give them some tasks and see if we create situations where they have the opportunity to take ownership or not and see if they're an agent versus versus not an agent? I like there was a quote in that book, I think it was in that book that said something like Julius Caesar said, if you want it done, go. If not send. It was like, that's pretty cool. But if we're stuck in that, that's a don't scale position. Right. If you can't trust, if you have to be the person that goes then and to be sure that it's going to get done, then you don't ultimately scale. So. So I think those little bits screen create a few test case situations, then if you see bring them in, have some period of time go by and then create incentive compensation that would be appealing to an owner. Maybe that's like a four step kind of way to think about it. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think that's good because I think what, what you brought in at the end is this idea of trust because somebody could come in with like, I've got this ownership mentality but we've seen people who are like, yeah, I just really want to take on something and own it. And it's real. Like they want it but they don't actually have total competency in that area. And so they just look like a bully and a bulldozer or they're told.

That like people just told them, oh, you should all. You definitely got to get equity or what you and I, I know we get frustrated by this is we'll be bringing somebody into a company. It's like, well, you know, you got to give them equity. It's like, no. Why? Because, just because that's what everybody does, which a lot of people do that. But that just seems crazy to me. That's equity is earned like trust.

But even on the variable comp side or even just in giving somebody the opportunity to take ownership of a project or take ownership of a team, you need to make sure that it's not merely the motivated because we made this mistake. Somebody's very motivated and they're asking for it. And so we give them what they asked for. And it can be if you're not careful like throwing the keys, you know, to a Ferrari, to a 15 year old who just got their learner's permit. Right. That's not fair. It's not fair to them. So you need to say, I know you want this opportunity, but let's give you a chance to kind of test it out in this role. So I know one thing that we will do is we'll say, all right, you want this opportunity. On paper you do not qualify for this opportunity. But I know you want to take ownership and we want it for you. So here's what we're going to do. You're going to start doing some of this role, right? We're going to pick some things for them to do. We're going to ask you to lead this project, to do this thing. We're going to make it known. We're not changing your role, we're not changing your title, we're not paying you any more money. And this is so that if you fail, you can go right back to where you were before. Because if we roll out the red carpet and the trumpets and we pronounce you as the new person who's guiding this initiative and how important this is and you fail, there's nowhere to go but out the door. And we don't want to do that. That's the Peter principle, right? That's the concept that good motivated people will be promoted to the level of their own incompetency. They'll ultimately fail and be gone. So we talk about this with our folks. We say, I know this seems frustrating. I know it sounds like that we're going to ask you to do more work without any more pay. Because that's exactly what we're doing. We're going to give you more work with no more pay. But what you're getting is opportunity. And what I'll tell you is that ownership minded people hear that and they go, I got it. That makes sense. So I need to do the work and then I get paid. Well, that's what it's called to be an entrepreneur, right? You do the work and then you get paid. And if you fail, you don't get paid. Right. It's really, really, really simple. So I think injecting that into your process where you say, we're going to give you an opportunity to do it if it fails miserably or heck, we've had cases where people are like, I thought I wanted this, I don't want this. This is terrible. Great, go right back into where you were.

I was told I should want this. Turns out I don't.

And we've had that. Right, We've had that. So I think being able to give somebody that opportunity while they still have a safety net and can quietly return to where they were before is one of the things that you should look to do as an entrepreneurial company if you want to build this ownership mentality, but do it in a way where you're not going to burn your people out or, you know, have them fail publicly, spectacularly in such a way that they can't recover.

Yeah, I like it. Awesome. Is there anything going on that we want to mention before we sign off for this time.

We. So I don't know about the time people hear this. I think that the next cohort of the Scalable Operating System accelerator may or may not have already begun. So depending on when you hear this. But it will be early enough that if you want to kind of sneak in, certainly go to Scalable Co and check out our accelerators page and maybe go and apply, get on the waiting list. And if you say that, hey, I heard about it on the podcast, we might be able to sneak in late. And then you and I just started working on what is going to be kind of the third flagship accelerator. You want to talk about that at all?

Yeah, I was trying to think if. Because we had a two and a half hour call yesterday, I literally had enough time to leave my house, drive 30 minutes down the road to a place to pick up lunch, had lunch there, while waiting for the lunch, drove back and we were still on the phone for like an hour after that. And I was trying to think if there was any thing in how we work together this would be for a future podcast. But it might be interesting to talk about because I think that process, we work well iterating something together. The thing that we iterated this time was really on our. Did we end up with Scalable Impact? I think that's what we came back to.

Yeah.

Scalable Impact.

We changed the name like 20 times while we were talking and came back to Scalable Impact. And I don't have in front of me the different elements of it, if you want to mention the ones we came up with. I think we ended up with SPV and then we had three or four things under each one. Is that where we were?

Yeah, I mean basically the idea is because I mean the way that we've broken down our accelerators at the scalable companies, we have the Scalable Growth accelerator, that's all about achieving that initial period of growth, ideally getting you from like six to seven figures in.

I like that we evolved the three elements of that, the three pillars of that, which I think is cool to share. You want to share this?

I don't want to share those. Right. I'll share those in because that frankly, because I just don't have it in front of me right now. But I think from a general perspective, like this idea that the entrepreneurial journey happens in stages and usually what it looks like is you have this period of growth, like if it, you know, there's after the launch, like lots of times we start stuff and it doesn't work. But assuming it works and you get that initial growth period right, that's a lot of fun and that's great. But what most successful entrepreneurs have figured out is that growth is not enough. At some point you can grow yourself to death. At some point you can, you know, the duct tape and bubble gum that's holding all your systems together starts to fall apart. And so that's where kind of our second flagship program, which is the scalable Operating System Accelerator, helps you to install that operating system so that you can build up that capacity for additional scale. So that's the one that we just launched. You got scalable growth, you've got scalable systems, the scalable operating system, and then you're ready to achieve what we refer to as scalable impact. And that's, you know, being able to grow a business to eight, nine figures and beyond, but particularly one that is both exitable, meaning it's not reliant upon you. You have the ability to exit, although you're not required to do it. Exitable companies are the most fun to run. When somebody could buy it, you don't want to sell it, that's the best. But it's exitable and it's achieving whatever your version of impact is that could be impact for you personally, your family, maybe you want to run. I know a guy who, the impact that he wants to achieve for his business is just paying his people a lot of money. His people are getting a lot of money and a lot of freedom. So his whole team, they all make really good money and they only work 15 to 20 hours a week. It is an entire business where, yes, it delivers value to the customers, but it is an entirely employee centric business. It's crazy. There's not a lot of them, but he's got one. And it's all just, I want my employees to be super happy and deliver this amazing work experience. It's kind of like an experiment in that. So that or impact on your little corner of the universe. So this idea of impact, I think is great. The problem is so many people want to pursue impact before they've ever made a sale. We deal with this. Somebody's got this idea for a startup and this company, they want to begin. It's like, I just want to make an impact on the universe and do all this and help these people. It's like, how many have you sold? Well, none yet. Like, God dang, dude, you need to focus on, right? You need to focus on growth. You're trying to be like Richard Branson, you know, going out to outer space and you know, you got nothing. Like you don't have even like a model rocket, right? So let's focus on growth because if you don't have customers, you got nothing. You are incapable of helping anybody. Get you some customers, then get an operating system that can sustain your growth. Then you can go for impact. So I'm excited because it's kind of like, I feel like the third piece of the trilogy, you know, the third piece of kind of the holy trinity of scale is coming together. And so that is going to be kicking off. We're going to open that up in just a couple weeks. So definitely, if you're not subscribed to the Scalable Memo, definitely go over to Scalable Co, get subscribed. You're going to want to see what's going on there. So long winded pitch. But I hope everybody got, you know, I hope you at least learned something from the idea of those stages. I think that's really important.

Love it. And don't forget, if you enjoy what we're doing here, we would love for you to subscribe to the podcast and we would love for you to leave us a review. If you love it and if you don't, then let us know how we can make it better. I think that's it for today.

Yeah, sounds great.

Thanks everybody. We will see you next time on Business Lunch. You've been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information, go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

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