It’s The Little Things (That Close Deals And Get Referrals), With John Ruhlin

You need to have a strategy on how you're going to show up for people and be different and stay top of mind and engage in these relationships so that they want to refer you business. They want to do more business with you. I think at a core level, kind of our Western culture, everybody says they're about relationships, but most people are in the transactional business.

You're listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is your seat at the table. Welcome to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is the producer, Darren Clark. I'm sure you'll agree that business is all about relationships. So if you're smart, you'll develop a strategy for recognizing, appreciating, nurturing, and nourishing those relationships. We have a guest today that can help you do just that. John Rulin is the CEO and founder of Giftology and the author of the book Giftology. But before I hand you over, would you take a moment to hit the subscribe button and head over to businesslunchpodcast.com for show notes and more? All right, let's begin.

Hey, everybody. Roland Frazier here with Business Lunch, and I'm very happy to welcome my guest today, John Rulin, who's the CEO and founder of Giftology, which also has a book of that name that you guys should all read. John, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Roland.

Yeah, man. You want to tell everybody a little bit about kind of where you're at right now, and then we'll dive into how you got where you are.

So the core of what we do, we own a gifting agency, and we help people scale and really automate and have a system to showing gratitude and appreciation year round for the people that matter. You know, every business, every industry rises and falls on relationships, and that could be relationships with clients or employees or vendors or investors. And most people, they think they're a 7 out of 10 when it comes to appreciation, and they don't realize they're a negative three, because oftentimes the way we show love to our employees or clients is the way we like to receive it, not necessarily the way that they want to receive it. So really, the core of Giftology is if relationships matter to you, then how you show up emotionally with gratitude, appreciation for those relationships is going to determine whether or not you get that extra referral. Do you land that stage? Did you get the employee that's going to stick around for an extra few years?

That's awesome.

And I have used your services as well. You do some really cool and unique things. And I would say that those people who are not lying awake at night in bed thinking about a gift strategy are probably thinking very often, at least during the day, that your network determines your net worth. And nothing could be truer than that, because it is all about the relationships. The big things that swing the biggest doors, you know, those. Those hinges that swing the biggest doors, I think, are the relationships you've got. And you have a strategy for really recognizing, appreciating and nurturing and nourishing those relationships, right?

Yeah, it sounds like a little thing, but the little things matter in a deal getting closed or a referral being made. Like, we forget that it's the little things that matter, especially with more affluent or more successful people.

So what is the basis of or the basic gift strategy that you recommend? People think about having the core of.

What we talk about in the book. People are like, hey, is Giftology 2 coming out anytime soon? I'm like, no, we took 20 years, put everything we had into the book, and the playbook is really simple. Oftentimes people are like, really? That's it? Or they find out, hey, you still do the stupid knives thing that you did back when you were in college? And I'm like, you don't understand. It's not really about the what. It's about the who. And oftentimes, people get so caught up into wanting to give the cool, sexy gift that they don't realize that when you're giving something to somebody, most of those people can buy whatever they want. And so if you're not putting meaning behind what you're doing and you're not doing the little things, then it doesn't work. And so we have kind of what we call relationship planning process that we identify. Like, hey, here's the who that matters. Here's like, oftentimes people like, oh, my list is, you know, half a million people. And I'm like, there's probably on that list 50 people that really matter. Or if you have a company, you know, like, it's your, you know, 100 employees or whatever else. And so identifying who those relationships are and then understanding that. It's a weird thing, but most people have been conditioned. If they do an event, they do it at this beautiful resort in Utah or California or Hawaii. You know, if they do, if they have an office space, it's beautiful. They'll do things at a risk Carlton level in almost every other part of their business. And yet, when it comes to gifting and appreciating their most valuable people, they do it at a Motel 6 level. And they wonder why there's this huge gap of congruency of, like, people don't say thank you or it doesn't move the needle. And it's like, you really think your box of peanut brittle, so you're like, you know, $50,000 customers is going to move the needle. Like, people haven't put any real strategy into it, so they check the box once a year at Christmas and send crappy stuff out to all the relationships. And they're like, oh, I guess gifting doesn't really work. And they'll come back to me and tell me that. They're like, john, we do giftology. It doesn't work like these big CEOs. And I'm like, tell me about it. And they're like, well, we. We did this. We did this. And I'm like, you didn't follow the recipe? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, unless you're like, baking bread, unless you're willing to follow the recipe if you leave out yeast, like, guess what you don't get. You don't get bread. And when you're looking to deepen relationships, one of the most important things is to personalize the gift. And people are like, well, I personalized the gift. I'm like, no, you didn't. Like, you took this Bose out of headphones and you slammed your logo on it and gave it out to 500 people. That's not a personalized gift. And they thought they were doing something great by dropping 2, 3, 4, $500 on a gift. And they actually defaced the item by making it about themselves. Like, I'm like, would you ever go to a wedding and, you know, your best friend get married, you're gonna do this beautiful Tiffany's vase that costs like a thousand dollars. Would you ever put, like, compliments of digital marketer on that? Like, there's not a chance in hell. Like, nobody would ever do that in their personal life. But we think we can do things in our business life under branding and marketing. And it's not like it's. Human beings are human beings. And oftentimes we don't realize. Like, we. When you try to do that to somebody, you're actually trying to manipulate them into becoming a billboard for you, and you actually could spend money to damage the relationship. I'm like, the personalization of things and making it about them, not about you. And the one simple way to do that. Like, you know, you're obviously aware that we do a lot of the knives stuff and people are like, why the knives? I'm like, well, you know, the knives are, meet a lot of our requirements. But one of the most important things that we do is we personalize every single stuff that goes out. So I can send the same to 10,000, you know, or knife set to 10,000 people. But the one thing that we always do every single time is personalize it with their, their family name. So it's a legacy. Play. The second part of this thing that we talk about and you're really aware of this, is to gift you or to gift me. Like, we have to do, like you'd have to do something crazy to a lot of your more affluent relationships. The decision maker, the executive. And most people forget that human beings have an inner circle. They have an assistant, they have a team, they have a spouse, they have kids, they have pets. And so when we're walking people through a plan, I'm like, 80% of your budget should go at targeting the inner circle, because that way you could invest $1,000 and get like $100,000 in value. Because most people, they completely neglect the spouse, the wife, the husband, the kids, the assistant. And I treat and help our clients treat those people like gold because that person becomes the internal advocate. So a lot of our processes are really simple, but people fight back and want to give something with somebody's wife's name on it. I'm like, well, then you're not a good fit for us because if you want to get 100x ROI on that gift over time, then you have to be willing to do things differently than you've ever done before. And most guys in particular, they suck at appreciation, appreciating their wife, let alone, like, their best clients. Like, people reach out to us and be like, john, can you help me with my 50 year anniversary gift? And I'm like, you're screwed, dude. Like, you should have been thinking about this over the last 50 years. Like. And so the core of what we're doing is walking people step by step through this process to determine who they're gifting to, including the inner circle. And oftentimes people come back and like, that's it. I'm like, yeah, but if you, if you do all of the little steps of the process consistently for years and don't play, most people's long game is seven days. Our biggest clients, like the Cubs and Dr. Horton, the biggest builder in the world, have come after gifting people for seven years, right? And so that, you know, it's. That's it. That's that that's the core.

So would you say it is only a long game or is there a short and long game to the gifting strategy?

Oh, I think absolutely. There's a, there's a. I tell people to focus on the long term results because most relationships, you know, aren't born overnight. But I do think that there's a lot of people out there that say they're world class, first class, best in class. They're getting articles written about them that are all this flashy stuff and a lot of it's digital and a lot of it's mouth talking. And what I will say is that, you know when you can show up for people, especially in the valley, like right now, like people are pulling back and frayed and whatever else, but you can show up powerfully for people even once and show that you were listening, show that you're thoughtful, show that you have an attention to detail. Like all of those things communicate something. When you put your money where your mouth is, like, people say what their priorities are. I'm like, look at your calendar, look at your checkbook and I'll tell you. And tell me what my priorities are. And so everybody says, oh, we value our relationships. Oh, we're all about culture. Most of it's just lip service. Like when you show up and you actually send a gift of value that's thoughtful, that's meaningful to somebody even one time. I've had times where people reach back out to clients a decade later and say, hey, every time I use this thing or every time we see it, we think of you in the relationship. And my spouse, who's never met you before, still talks about you regularly. You're one of the most top of mind people in our entire home based upon what you did a decade ago.

So even though it didn't have your logo and phone number on it.

That'S the crazy thing. And people will fight us and be like, oh, well, they're going to forget. And I'm like, I send you a Rolex. Like, would I have to put giftology on the face of, you know, like an air king? Like there's not a chance in Hades, like you're going to tell the story a thousand times of where you got the watch. You're going to remember it, your spouse is going to know about it. But most people give crappy gifts. They give consumables or they give gift cards, or they give swag, trinkets and promotional products. Yeah, you better put your logo on that. But if you're really Looking to give an artifact or something that's truly a gift, then do it at the same level that you like. You're not taking your clients out to McDonald's for dinner. You're taking them out to a nice steakhouse or a nice place with wine. If you gift at that level, then they'll never forget where it came from. And in fact, they'll be more likely to use it and talk about it if there's no logo on it because you made the gift about them. They want to reciprocate and shine the spotlight back on to people. When you gift the right way with no strings attached, most people, a gift is a manipulation. A true gift is no strings attached. But what's funny is, the less you make it about yourself, the more they make it about you.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's really great. So the big takeaways are have a gifting strategy. Gift at a level that is commensurate with the value of the relationship and personalize to the recipient, not to your company. Does that sound about right?

Yeah. I mean, it's not rocket science here, man. I mean, it's. A lot of it is, you know, things that have been talked about for a long time. But most people, because we're busy, you know, like, everybody has a business plan, you know, a finance plan, or a lot of people do. Most people have a marketing plan of some sort. But you ask people what their relationship plan is, and I don't care if it's a solopreneur or the Cubs, they'll look at you like a deer in the headlights. They're like, what are you talking about? I'm like, you need to have a strategy on how you're going to show up for people and be different and, you know, and stay top of mind and engage in these relationships so that, like, they want to refer you business, they want to do more business with you. They want. And oftentimes nobody has really thought through because they don't really. I think at a core level in our Western culture, everybody says they're about relationships, but most people are in the transactional business. They give a gift after referral, they give a gift like. And so when you challenge them and say, like, hey, this is a real strategy, they're like, oh, my gosh, you're right. I haven't budgeted for that properly. I haven't put any manpower behind it. I just. I feel guilty at Christmas and want to be generous. So I do that once a year or I have an event. I do a gift at an event. But I didn't realize that saying thank you and showing gratitude was a year round, 365 day type opportunity. I thought it was a once or twice at best. Right. And so when you challenge them on that, they're like, wow, oh my gosh, like this could be a real lever to differentiate myself from all of my competitors.

So what is the right way to figure out what the budget should be? How does one set that up?

I try to make anything. My business partner's cfo, coo, like he's a very metrics guy, very much, you know, he makes sure we make money. And early on when he bought into the business he's like, hey, like let's, we got to figure out real numbers here. That makes sense for most businesses and typically it's a reinvestment of profits back into the relationships. And there's three reasons to do that. And it's, and it's basically the people are buying their own gift. Like most people want to go, it's sexy to go after your dream 100 prospects. And you know, I love Chet Holmes book Ultimate sales Machine. But most people completely neglect the relationships in the warm market that they already have. And so a lot of it is the reinvestment strategy of saying, hey, 5 to 15% of your net, I don't care what your gross is, what your net profit is, should be reinvested back into people to keep them as a client. We all know it's easiest to keep a client, but nobody really has a plan on how to do that to grow them and cross sell. And the third, the secret sauce is to inspire them to go be a sales rep on your behalf. And so people are like, man, 10% of net, like that's a lot. Now I'm like, get an ATM machine where you put a dollar in and got $10 back out every single time. How many dollars would you want to put in? You'd be like all the time. And yet people forget that reinvesting back into our warm relationships is one of the most powerful things to do. And so 5% on the low end, 15%. We have some people that do 20% but that's. And it's on net. It's not in gross, it's not in revenue, it's on real numbers. And the goal is for it to pay for itself over time. If you do this like, you know, one of my favorite examples was an early guy I wanted to build a relationship with which Cameron Harold from Double Double. I'd invested probably $20,000 in that relationship with the $7,000 of Brooks Brothers and all these other things and people like 20 grand in one person. And I'm like, I did the math the other day. And the return on investment and the return on relationship over the last Decade has been 50x. He's referred seven figures of opportunities and stages. I mean, the reason we're speaking that places for 85 grand is because before I had a book or anything else, Cameron was out. When he got double booked, he was pushing them to me and the people were like, who the heck is John Rulin? We don't like. And Cameron would be like, trust me, just book him. And so I couldn't hire Cameron for $2 million to sell for me, but because I've loved on him, I've inspired him to go be a sales rep on my behalf, right? So that's where like that's the secret sauce is People like, man, that's a lot of fricking money. 10% of my profits. And I'm like, if you made a million dollars last year, that's 100 grand. You get to keep 900. And now hopefully next year you'll do 1.5. So it becomes this flywheel over time that most people like. They don't understand that investing in people and human beings and relationships is one of the best ROIs that you can possibly have, if you're willing to do it the right way for the, for the longevity of it.

And what do you give? So obviously, if you, if you like, in that relationship, you said you spent about 20 grand. I know that you have a relationship with Cutco knives, which are fantastic, and you and Pete Vargas were kind enough to give me an amazing set of them. And then, and then I turned around and gave a set of them to someone and. And now we're working on another one, which I have to follow up with you on after, after this.

So how do you.

Because so that's. To me, that's one of the best intros. It's really cool because it's a part of your home. It's in the center of your K. And you and your spouse, if you do any cooking at all, and even if you don't, they're just beautiful to have. And then you personalize them with people's quotes and things like that. Or you can do that, which is awesome. Which you guys did for me and we did for Pedro. So what's next? Like, what's the sequence or the cadence of these, you know, these gifts for a higher level value customer or client.

Well, I would say that most people don't always get the, you know, the $5,000 set that you got or that you gave out like that. Typically, people are looking for a sequence or a campaign where they can drip on somebod. So they might take their top 50 or 100 or 200 relationships and the same cost that they would invest in a nice dinner out with wine or ball game tickets around the golf. All the stuff that we can't do right now. Experientially, we say the artifact should cost us. So most of the things that we're doing are the 250, all the way up to $1,000 per touch. And we might build that over time. And the reason we like the knives so well is to your point, like, the hub of most people's homes is the kitchen, where they have their. Their family, their friends, other CEOs, their most valuable relationships. You break bread with, like at home. And I want to own the real estate for our clients on that countertop to where every subtly, subconsciously, every time they see that knife set, they think about who gave it to them.

Yeah.

And so, like, that's a big, you know, so Cutco's full. Like Cutco kitchen is like 12 grand. And we have people that, for their employees, clients, they'll. They'll drip on them over the course of, you know, months or years or even decades. And so I love things that, you know, like you could buy your own knife set, but you're probably not waking up, you know, and say, man, I really got to go buy myself a knife set. And you're sure as heck aren't saying, you know what? Maybe my kids or grandkids someday are going to, like, want, like, an artifact that talks about some of my wisdom and things I've poured out into the world. So I love things that are a little bit unique, a little bit weird, that include the family, ideally at home, and ideally things that people use every single day. So, you know, if I'm going to do a wine tool and people are like, oh, I love to give wine. And you're one of those guys who loves wine and really appreciates wine. But even a beautiful bottle that's $500,000, like, eventually, hopefully it's going to be gone because you're going to drink it. So we'll take something that people love, and I'll pair that with like a 5 or $600 wine school that has somebody's autograph on it carved into the titanium. Because I want, you know, five years from now in their home. Once again, for every time they pull that wine key out to open up somebody else's bottle of wine, they're still thinking of our client. They're still thinking of the relationship. So a lot of the things that we're looking for are what I call practical luxuries. It's not the $50,000 Louis Vuitton bag, you know, it's. It's what can I give to somebody that they wouldn't go buy for themselves? And really, the knives or whatever we're sending are just the delivery vehicle for the emotional thought and connection. And so a lot of the things that we do tend to be more practical and functional. Not, hey, I want something to clutter up my shelves or hang on the wall or go into a closet. I want it to be something where people are actually going to get used out of it frequently and ideally around other circles of influence. And that's where, like, the flywheel starts to pick up effect. And so we, you know, people are like, john, I want your catalog of 100 things. And I'm like, we don't have a catalog of 100 things. We have about 10 core things that we do, and we customize them based upon budgets and value, relationship and timing, and make sure that every note, everything that goes out always has a handwritten note. People are like, john, can we just automate this on Amazon? And I'm like, do you think your most valuable relationships want to feel automated? Do they want to feel like a number just as important as what you're sending? Because it provides the meaning, the context, the value. So a lot of the process is, hey, let's find this item that's pretty universal that most people, you know, say, gave it to 100 people, you know, 95 of them would be like, wow, this is really cool. And then build the process and the details into making it land a certain way so that it becomes. Even if they already have a nice set, which you have a nice set, so did Pedro and everybody else. When they get. When they get a giftology knife set, it lands so differently based upon how it was personalized and the details, the timing, the packaging, all those other things make it say, wow, like, no matter what I had before, I'm replacing it, and this becomes a central part of my kitchen, my home, my whatever else.

Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. Well, so what is the best way for people to find out more about this and kind of dig in, get a plan going, you know, get in touch with you, that kind of stuff?

Yeah. So I would say that starting with a plan is a big deal. Like, most people waste money because they give gifts as a reactionary thing. Like, crap, we got a referral. Crap, we have an event. And they're not mostly gifting. That we try to get our clients to do is to think proactively. If you wait till you get a referral from somebody and you give them a really nice gift, you basically created a transactional relationship where they do something nice for you and you do something nice for them. And the most powerful things are similar to what we sent you and Pete and I sent you. It was just based on the value of the relationship. There was no like, hey, you did this. It was, hey, we just value you as a person. We love what you're doing. You've added a ton of value to a lot of people's lives. Just thanks for just because. And so laying out and saying, man, who are all those relationships? You know, who do I want to inspire to act on my behalf maybe even five years from now? And laying that out like, it takes time. And oftentimes people, you know, they just need a framework to work from. And so we took 20 years to build what we call, like, giftology system. Your tribe can go download it for free and go do it on their own if they want to. They go to giftology system.com and it talks about who, when, why, what should you budget, all that kind of stuff. They can go do it and go execute the entire plan without us. Now, most people, when they start doing it, they're like, crap. Like, there's a lot of moving parts here. I'm not Santa Claus. I'm not ups. I don't know how to send all these things with handwritten notes or I want to fast track it and I want help walking through it with my team. Then they can reach out to us. And, you know, we charge thousands of dollars to put that plan together. But for somebody that's a do it yourself or somebody that's a solopreneur that isn't really sure, that's a great place to at least start and get a basic framework of what to actually understand and what they need to start to do.

Cool.

Now, do you have any podcasts or other media types of things that people could listen and get more of you if they would like to hear more?

I would say that if they go to YouTube, there's hundreds of videos on there of us that either we've created or staged, like Google and other places where we spoken. But I'd say that if you Google John Ruling Giftology, you'll get more content and opportunities to listen to us on. You know, whether it's Lewis Howell's podcast or other places, you know, that we've poured into and shared and whatever else. But I don't have a podcast yet. I've always said I eventually when I can figure out how I can have it a little bit unique and different and kind of giftology ise it but it's in the works. I'll say that I like it.

And then of course everybody should go and get your book which is available on Amazon and everywhere else. Right? The giftology book.

Yeah, Amazon's the best place. Absolutely.

Awesome. That's fantastic. Well, thank you for being here today and really appreciate you taking the time to share your stuff with us. And when we get off, I'm going to talk with you about one of the other gifts that we're working on to get.

Cool. Sounds great. Thanks for having me.

Awesome.

You've been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

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