Preventing Your Employees from 'Quiet Quitting'

It could be completely appropriate for a company to say, look, we demand of our team members that they basically show up an hour early, that they be available nights and weekends when we email no more than three rings. And if you don't do that, then you know you can't work here, and you know we're going to pay you what we're going to pay you. Now, do I think that's good practice? No. But can a company say that that's what their expectation is? If they make it clear that this is what we expect of you? Yes, they can. How much more successful would you be.

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Hey, everybody. Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss with Business Lunch live pre recorded on tape. Except it's not tape. I like to say that every time. It just makes me feel good. I don't know why.

Yeah, you're very enthusiastic today.

I am. It's Labor Day. I'm off for the first time in forever. And I think it's kind of ironic that Labor Day is a day that we don't work also, by the way. I mean, I mean.

Yeah, we should be working, though. We're management. This is for the. This is for the people. This is not. This holiday is not for us.

Oh, okay.

Which is why we're working today.

I see. Okay.

All right.

Well, so Ryan just got back from Nashville, Tennessee. I just got back from Napa, California, and we are coming to you kind of. I mean, live as we're recording. And we have got some fun things to talk about, though. Speaking of Labor Day, it seemed like we should chat perhaps a little bit about something that you hear a lot about right now, which is the next evolution of the great resignation, and it's called quiet quitting. So that sounds like something that you could put on with Stewie from the family.

Quiet quitting.

Yeah. So tell me what you know and think about this, this quiet quitting business, Ryan.

So my understanding is that this is just basically people kind of mailing it in, right? I mean, doing the absolute minimum to just not get fired. I think it's a case. I mean, I think it's. It's interesting that it is becoming a thing now. I think it's a case, really of branding more than almost anything else, because I don't know that being lazy and mailing it in is a new concept. But when you apply a term like quiet quitting, I think now, when everybody can call it something, it now can become a thing. And I think what we're all feels.

Like an excuse to me, doesn't it? I mean, like, a little bit. It's like, okay, let's put a label on it and call it something alliterative. And now we can, you know, we can just not show up for work, but hopefully. Hopefully not get fired. I saw an ad for a program that's a little widget you can put on Chrome that wiggles your mouse every 30 seconds, so that if they're monitoring you with software on productivity, the productivity software will think that you're being productive.

I mean, like, if you've got to.

Go to those extents, it just seems like maybe you should just actually quit, like, noisily with, you know, hey, I'm gonna quit.

Yeah, especially if you have. Yeah, especially if you. If you have options. So, no, I think what's different about this is now with, like, with TikTok and Reels, there's. There are people teaching other people how to quiet quit the right way. And so I think what we have now, it's like a lot of things where it was sort of taboo. It was one of these things where it was generally regarded as, this is a bad thing, right? And pick kind of your vice du jour. And then all of a sudden, you find out that everybody's actually doing it, and everybody kind of comes out and they're like, wait, no, this is fine now. And so I think that's what's happening here. I don't. I don't think it's a good thing. And I don't just say that as. As an employer. You know, I say it as a human being. I think anytime I'm a firm Believer in how you do anything is how you do everything. And so if you're at a job and your whole thing is to figure out, how can I do as little as possible, you know, for this, when it's not like you're necessarily incentivized, like, that's not the deal. Right. One of the things I think is important about the employee employer relationship, and it's what I've said, any time we frankly have let someone go, it's an acknowledgement that what we have here is a mutually exploitative relationship.

Right.

We are trying to get the. And I use that term intentionally because I kind of want it to shock people. It's like we're trying to do everything we can to get the most out of you. You're trying to do everything that you can to get the most out of us. And as long as those two things are aligned, we have a really great relationship. And if at any point in time they become misaligned, then we have every right to say, hey, this isn't working out. We're gonna, you know, move on and try something else. And you can, too. And that's what makes the system work. But when one side basically says, no, I'm gonna be deceptive, and I'm gonna make it seem like, you know, that I'm doing all that I can, but I'm not. We can call it quiet quitting. I think we should call it what it is, which is lying. You're just lying. That's not the deal. Like, that's not the deal. Like, I'm not gonna quietly pay you a little less this month. Right. But all this said and hope you don't know. Right.

Hope you don't notice.

Yeah. Because you're not even looking at your paycheck anyway. So I want you to speak on it. But ultimately, I think that this is the employer's problem and likely their fault. But, I mean, I can keep going on this. I feel, have strong feelings. What do you think?

Well, so to me, it's like it all comes down to, like, I watched some of the how to quiet quit things, and I looked at some of the reasoning behind it. The that is being put out there. And it's basically saying, you know, employers are taking too much advantage of employees. They're asking them to work overtime without paying them. They're not passing through things. They want them to show up to the office before the actual office hours are, and they don't pay them for that time. There's been lawsuits on that, by the way, where People actually get paid officer job, not just, not just office jobs. And also they expect certain work to be done at home, like homework, and they're not paying for that. And all of that is, to me, conversation about what's fair and what you should get paid for. And so I think the whole problem with quiet quitting is that it is an abnegation of the responsibility to have a conversation. And so you're basically going to say, rather than addressing this challenge with communication, I'm going to address it like a little kid and stomp my feet and hold my breath till I turn blue and, and not do the work. You know, it's like, I'll teach you, I'm not going to do the work. And it's wrong for the employers to, to not pay people for the time that they are working. And it's wrong to me for the employees to take pay for time that they are quiet quitting. So I think that, like it, to me, it just really comes down to why don't employers and employees just have a conversation and say, this is what's fair. A lot of it that I've seen too is setting boundaries about, like receiving calls and texts and being expected to be available 247 and things like that. And if you're, if you are expecting that of your employees and they're not on the same page because there's some motivating reason for them to be doing that, then you deserve to not be. You know, I don't know if you deserve to be quiet quit on, but you certainly deserve to have something brought to your attention. So I guess that's it for me, man, is just like, how about instead of this irresponsible, I'm not going to work. And I hope you don't get it. Just say, hey, look, I'm happy to work, but if I'm going to work, I have to get paid for it. And so if you want me to do that either I have a personal life and I'm not willing to do that. And if that's something this job requires, then I'm going to go find something else. Or, hey, if you want that from me, I can be your huckleberry, but you need to pay me for that. And that's what this looks like. And have that conversation on both sides. Like, if you see somebody quiet quitting, then I think you got to call them out and say, not, hey, you're fired for quiet quitting or you're bad or anything like that. It's like, why do you feel that that's okay. And what would have to be true for you to stop doing that and actually be productive. And same thing on the employer side. Right. The employee has to have that conversation with the employer, too. So that's my. My thinking on it.

Yeah. Let me. So, like, clarify something, because I feel like I sounded like an old guy yelling at clouds earlier.

You didn't.

I think it's deception if. If the expectations are clear and you're just flat out not working when everybody agrees you should. Right. You know, we were kind of talking. You know, you were talking about. Yeah, there's the thing that wiggles your mouse, like, to make it look like you're working. Like, that's deception. Right. So there's obviously, this is a spectrum, and on one end, it's outright deception. You know, move in a little bit further. And yeah, I think it. At that point, it's just immaturity. Right. Have a conversation. But ultimately it's on the employer. It's on the leader. Like, all of these things are a failure of leadership. And I say this to someone who's made this mistake more times than I would like to admit, and it's not being clear with your team in expectations. And so clarity, a lack of clarity is unkind. And I know there's been plenty of times where I thought that somebody was just. Just lazy. Right? Just absolutely, completely lazy. And what I wanted to do is go to them and say, hey, you're fired, because you suck at life. Now, my better angels said, don't say that, because there's a good chance you're wrong, because I am, frequently. And go and talk to him. It's like, hey, I want to have a conversation. I think there's some misalignment here. Here's kind of our expectations. It's not really happening. Like, are you clear on, like, what it is that you're supposed to do? And it's amazing how many times that I've heard is like, oh, my gosh. I didn't realize that at all. They're actually busy doing other stuff that I was even aware of. Maybe it was something that we had people do at one point, and I thought everybody stopped. It was just a temporary thing. They're still doing it. Maybe there's somebody else who's not even their manager who's asking them for help, and so they're working overtime. And I don't even realize it. So I think it's always, you know, it's critical as an organization. It's one of the things we Teach at scalable. It's why we have our, you know, a tool. We built an entire tool around this called the high output team canvas that is like, let's be crystal clear. These are the things that you're uniquely accountable to, right? These are your critical accountability bullets. You are uniquely accountable to these results. Now, when that's clear and it's clear on both sides, then it's just a question of, okay, are these things happening? If they are, then for me, I don't really care how many quote unquote hours people are working, by and large. Right. And I do think that there should be absolutely. That there should be times when it's like, I'm not going to hit somebody up, you know, in the evenings or on, on weekends or when they're on vacation. Right. I mean, there needs to be some barriers there. I think, I think that's some boundaries there. I think that's important. But if, if everybody's clear on, like, this is what's expected now, it's a, it's a thing of like, are those expectations being met? If not, then I think both sides need to seek the why. Like, so the first step is to clarify as an employer, if you can't produce a document that, that is a Job description with 3 to 5 critical accountability bullets for a team member, I don't think you're allowed to be upset about their lack of productivity. Right. Without. Without pointing, you know, looking at the mirror and pointing at yourself, too. So step one is to clarify, step two is to seek the why, right? Why is this not working out? And seek it with humility and with empathy. And that needs to go both ways.

Right.

I can't tell you how many times people have worked, you know, worked on our team and come to me and been like, I don't. I think it's stupid that we're doing this and that it's like bold, opener, player, you know.

Let's talk. I want to drill down into that a little bit more. Let's take a quick break for our sponsor and then we'll come back and chat about that a little bit.

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Okay, we're back. And you're saying that some people have come to you. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I know there have been times where we were doing a particular, um, we made a change at one point to I think to people's schedules. Like when, when certain people were going to be, you know, working I think in the customer care department and it wasn't communicated well and that was a failure on our part. But I remember somebody come to me and just like very angry, like and obvious and very accusatory and saying, you know, basically, how dare you do this? I can't believe you do this. You don't care about us. And they were completely wrong. Like everything they were saying that we had done wasn't even accurate. But in addition to that, the way that they went about it was just flat out wrong. And so with that person it was like, okay, let me explain it to you now. Oh, by the way, you don't get to work here anymore because just people aren't allowed to talk to me that way.

Right.

I mean, it's just, that's really, really simple.

That's, that's something I want to talk about because I'm thinking as you were saying, that 25 year old me would have been, oh yeah, get out. Now I'm much more, hey, what's my role in this? As long as it's done with respect. So was it a frustrated kind of thing or was it a disrespectful thing? And how do you differentiate?

In this case it was outright like just disrespectful person went off, like completely just went off. Right. And it was like, you, you have a thing. And there were plenty of other people who were very upset and frustrated and they came with that frustration, but they were genuinely seeking to understand. And so I think it goes to somebody's intent, which is not always easy to discern. But I think if you look at somebody's intent and it's like, are they? And that's why we say seek the why. Okay. Seek to understand why a decision was made. Right? Seek to understand why a decision was made. That is the obligation. That's one of our core values. And so at that point, if somebody comes to a conclusion and is going to accuse somebody without seeking the why, then that's a direct core values violation. And a direct core values violation is a reason for termination. Also, just kind of frankly, being a prick is a reason for termination. So I remember when that happened in.

My house one time, I felt the same way.

That was funny. It's funny now. One funny at the time. But no, that. So I think that was an extreme situation. Plenty of times people have come with, you know, very, very heated, even slightly raised voices. So it's not one of these things like you got a yes, so nurse, you know, yes or no, sir me kind of thing. But it is like I get being really upset and frustrated. But I think that's a good thing.

For us as managers, as, you know, as entrepreneurs, though, to, to say, hey, don't take. Try to put our ego out of the way first. When somebody comes like that, if they come, you know, if they come at you, then I guess part of it is, what's the relationship like? But to me, it's unacceptable to talk to each other like that. I don't let people talk to anybody like that in my family, in my house and my work, and I tell people that work for me. You don't ever let somebody talk to you like that, you know, but also, if it's not disrespectful, then it becomes, you know, I need to figure out what's my role in it. What do I own about this? Where did my communication break down? Because that is a failure of leadership on our part as an employer. When. When that happens. And if they don't understand the big picture, we can't really expect them to, you know, to. To come and say, like, just to do things blindly and wouldn't want them to.

We actually want feedback.

When you don't understand why we do something because we want you to understand the big picture, does that make sense?

1,000%. And I think it goes back to, you know, we did the episode on how to deal with haters, right? And it was, you know, you do need to pause and say, how much of this do I own? And so. And if you own, my feeling is if I own any of it, as a leader, I own all of it, right? That's the whole concept of, you know, extreme ownership. Jocko Willick, who's one of our speakers at Traffic and Conversion Summit, like, that's his whole premise, right? That's his thesis. As leaders, if you own any of the failure, then you own all of it. And so I'm going to own all of it. And it's why, you know, with this quiet, you know, quitting concept, if somebody is not getting their job done, then to me, that's the only thing that matters. Like, if they're, quote, unquote, quiet quitting in their mind, but in my mind, they're doing everything that I require of them, then to me, they're just being efficient with their time. Good for them. Right now, I wouldn't like the mentality of it necessarily. And they're probably not somebody who's going to grow long term with the company, but that's fine, right? That's fine. And so. But if somebody is not doing what is expected of them, the very first question you have to ask as a leader is how. How much of this failure do I own? And you could own the failure by not being clear on the front end. You could own the failure by not equipping somebody with the support and the resources they need. You could own the failure by not being clear with everybody around them about who their reporting structure is. So again, I said before, we've had times where somebody thought they actually had two managers because there was somebody else in the department who was tasking them out so frequently. And it wasn't until we were like, wait, they're asking you to do what? No, they don't get to do that and go have the comp. Like, you know, and the person's like, oh, I thought I was just asking for help. It's like, okay, you know. No, there was no malicious intent. It was like, so now what do we do there? We gotta own that as leaders. But at the point in time when everybody's clear on what's expected and everybody agrees on what's expected, my belief is, and what I've said to our team before is once you have sought the why, once there is clarity, right now you kind of have three choices, right? You could become a true believer. That is option A. I am a true believer. I 100% am bought in. I completely get why we're doing this. I have changed my mind and I think it's brilliant. Okay, that's option A, I become a true believer. Option B, number two is disagree and commit. I still don't completely agree with you, but I trust you. And so I'm going to go with it. And if at any point in time, you know, then my mind changed, I'm going to come and have a conversation. Because option three is recuse, Right? Recuse. And collecting a paycheck is not an option. And so I've had plenty of conversations with people where it's like, it's clear we're not aligned. So let's have a Conversation about what a graceful exit looks like. Because it doesn't mean you're a bad person if you don't want to do what we need you to do. And it doesn't mean we're bad people for asking you to do it. Right. It could be completely appropriate for a company to say, look, we demand of our team members that they basically show up an hour early, that they be available nights and weekends when we email, no more than three rings. And if you don't do that, then you know you can't work here. And you know we're going to pay you what we're going to pay you. Now, do I think that's good practice? No. But can a company say that that's what their expectation is if they make. Make it clear that this is what we expect of you? Yes, they can. Right.

And that's the thing. Like that's the deal that you strike. Right. As long as you communicate, then the deal that you strike. And so the deal that you strike, you've got to honor until it does in employment, until it doesn't work out. Right. Because that's a continuing arrangement. So the transaction that we're entering into is I'm going to hire you. And the transaction you're entering into with me is you're going to work, work for me. And then you need to know what is expected. And so I think part of it comes down to this. Like my experience as an employee with this, you know, on. The few jobs I've ever had in my life were very. Was. I was very young, but I was efficient. And so, like as a runner for a law firm, what was expected of me was to get the deliveries done. That was the thing that they wanted, was to get the things that had to be delivered to the places they had to go delivered on the top within the time that they needed to be there. The way they wanted to manage it was anytime something came up, have me go out and do it. But what I would do is hang out until I talked to everybody and found out what they had and when it was due, I'd write it all down and then I would know what had to be done, where, and then I would plot out the route that I was going to take so that it didn't take me 8 or 10 hours to do it. I could basically get it all done. And I knew that there were some things that had to be there before others, so I could still get everything done. And they got mad at me because I was too efficient, which blew me away Right. And it's like, now I would understand if I was like, okay, I'm just going to deliver things when I want. And they're like, yeah, but that had to be there at 9am and this had to be there at 3pm then. Okay. Right. But I had the job to be done, described to me, and I was able to do it more efficiently. And they just didn't like it because they didn't like that I had free time. And that happened to me in really all three of the primary jobs that I had when I was younger is I would always find I was working at a tennis court. I would. They wanted me to sweep all the tennis courts. And I was like, this really stinks, and it takes forever. So even though it cost me a little bit of money, I went out to the rental place and would rent a leaf blower and blow all the leaves off. And I would be done in like 45 minutes for something that was supposed to take eight hours. And then they want to give me more work. So I think one of the things too, is just like, be clear on what is the transaction that we're entering into on both sides. And then a conversation that says, so if I get XYZ done, then you're happy with me, right? Yes. Does it matter whether that takes me one hour or eight hours? Are you buying my time to torture me for eight hours of the day where I have to be with you, or are you buying my time to get done these things that you need to get done? And I think that's a really important distinction that not enough people talk about.

Yeah. And I think, look, good leaders will listen to their people, and when they innovate the right way, promote them.

Right.

I mean, but. But I also think it's incumbent upon, you know, employees, team members who want to ascend. If a manager, like, let's say back to the leaf blower example, they come to like, hey, you can't use a leaf blower. You got to sweep. And you're like, well, this is dumb. And how dare you? This takes too long. And you just want me to burn all my time. And, you know, you never seek the wine.

Really.

The reason they said that is because, well, you know, the number three tee box on the country club where we share a thing with, you know, the golfers over there are really upset and we sublease the space from them. And so if they're mad, then we're done. And so that's why you can't use a leaf blower. Oh, okay. I get it. I sought the why. I now understand the intent, then I get it, right? And so the mistake, and this is why. Ultimately, I believe that it is the employer's fault to explain the why. So here's, I want you to do this and here's the why behind it. But we say to our team, as leaders, we're going to do our best to give you the why behind it. We want you to understand why, but we're imperfect and so we're going to fall short. When we fall short and we ask you to do something that you think is stupid, unnecessary, inefficient, it's now incumbent upon you from a values perspective to seek the why. And at that point, we're going to give it to you. And we can have now a mature adult, grown up conversation about it and decide what happens from there. And again, at that point, the three options, I get it, I'm a true believer. Disagree and commit. I still think it's dumb, but I trust you. Or under these circumstances, I can't work here.

All of those are fair. Or maybe we do it differently. What if I come after or before the golf course opens and I do it then? Because I can get it done in 45 minutes.

Right?

You know, so what are the modification options that are there? Right, Yep.

And so all. I think, I think the thing with Kui Qing, I'm going to say ultimately it is the fault of the employers because they have generally not clarified the roles, they have not clarified expectations, and they're not listening to their people. I'm sympathetic because a lot of this is happening in a time where a lot of businesses have gone virtual and they just don't know how to do it well. And I say that as we've done it too. And it's hard and it's different. And managers, leaders struggle. Right? We struggle. There was an old way of managing where you could see what people are doing and it wasn't even this kind of Big Brother thing, it was just easier and people knew how to do it. Management by walking around. And now there's not a great, you know, analog for that in the digital space. So I'm sympathetic. But ultimately, managers, leaders figure it out. It's literally your freaking job. You know, employees, team members, if you're quite quitting, I think you just have to ask, what does it say about me? Right? What does it say about me? And is this really the kind of person that I want to be? Do I want to be the kind of person who is going to see how little I can do and get away with it, or do I want to acknowledge that, hey, there's a lot of. There isn't much clarity here and I should seek the why. And if I'm unwilling to do that, or if I don't get a good answer, then I should seek to work elsewhere because why would I want to work at a place with idiots, right? Why would I want to work at a place that doesn't. Like, I'm not going to grow here, so get me the hell out of here. And so I think it's going to be the responsibility of both. If you find yourself quiet quitting, I think you know there's some actions that you should take. And if you find that you got a team of quiet quitters, as a leader, look in the mirror, it's absolutely your fault. Take, take responsibility and figure out what you can do to take the first step. And you probably got something to apologize for. And that's probably a good place to start. Hey, I'm really sorry. I think I've done a bad job of kind of saying what's clear and what my expectations are. And I feel like that's just creating, like, weirdness. I just want to apologize. I want to acknowledge it. I want to have a conversation about expectations and how we can be efficient. I think if you do that, your team's going to appreciate it.

Yeah, I think so too. Cool. Well, that's our take on quiet quitting. Thanks for having lunch with us today. If you enjoyed this, please share it with somebody that you think could get something out of it. And we'll see you next time.

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