The 7 Levels of Scale: A Scalable Framework to Grow Your Business (Part 1)

On today's episode of Business Lunch.

And it's amazing. When somebody is accountable to a number, somebody's accountable to a metric, and when they have to enter it manually so it's not just being pulled in, they actually know their numbers. Right. As opposed to like, hey, so what's the conversion rate on the page? Oh, I don't know. Let me check. You need to just know that. Yeah.

But if you're not frustrated, that's something that really, to me, that's a pet peeve. It's like, this is what you do. This is absolutely essential information that needs to be top of mind. If it's not top of mind, you're not thinking about how to make it better, how to fix it. What's happening? You got to know that.

You're listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is your seat at the table.

Hey, business natural listeners. If you want to scale your business, you have to know what's working and what's broken. And to date, Ryan and roland have started 13 companies from scratch. They've funded a dozen more and directly Advise hundreds of CEOs and entrepreneurs on how to grow and scale their companies. And over the years, they've identified the eight key domains that allow a business to scale to eight figures and beyond. And they use those eight areas to help entrepreneurs and CEOs find their current strengths and weaknesses and understand the constraints that are getting in the way of them scaling. So if you want a quick and accurate look at what areas you can improve to scale your business faster, go and take our scalability assessment. It's an assessment that'll show you exactly where you need to focus to scale your business and achieve even your loftiest goals. In just five minutes, you'll know your exact scale constraints and you'll get instant, actionable steps on how to improve your business. So go to businesslunchpodcast.comScore to take the free assessment one more time. It's businesslunchpodcast.comScore.

Hey, everybody. Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss here with Business Launch Podcast. Wonderful to see you guys. Even though we can't really see you today.

You can see them.

Yeah, yeah.

We're looking at you right now, so.

Be careful what you've got on your. That said, welcome. This is kind of fun because we just got done doing our newest event, which is called Scalable Impact Live. And the really fun thing about it was our first opportunity to roll out a new framework that we created called the seven Levels of Scale. And so, over the next couple of podcasts we want to share with you the seven levels of scale and kind of talk to you about how you can use it to improve and grow and scale your business. Ryan, you want to kind of talk about the first rung in the. In the ladder.

Yeah, I mean, I think giving some context here would also. Would also be good because we've been talking about how to scale for a while in different. Different ways tactically to scale. But the big question that everybody always asks is, where do I start? Like, what is. What is the order of operations in terms of how do I. How do I scale my business? And so when we were sitting there thinking and talking like, how did we do it? What is kind of that. That natural progression? We came up with these seven different levels and going back over all of our different businesses were like, yeah, that's basically how it went. And talked to a lot of our friends in business. They're like, yeah, that actually, you know, is it. So I think it's kind of cool.

Too, to talk about. Just as you're trying to think about, like, anybody that's trying to create something. We had all this stuff, like it all existed, but we were kind of trying to think about what is the best framework for it. And. And it took a long time for. It just kind of came to us during a meeting we had. But. But that, like, there was a lot there, but it didn't really all tie together. And it's really important to have something that ties it all together.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's easy to make complicated. It's easy to explain complicated stuff in a complicated fashion. And I know something that we endeavor to, for our listeners and for our clients and for ourselves is to say, how do we simplify this? How do we distill it so that it's transferable and so that we can understand? And I feel like we've really done that. And so, I mean, if you're okay, Roland, I'd love to just go through just very quickly, these are the seven levels. And then in this episode, focusing on, like, let's take kind of the first two, but just to kind of say, like, here they are. Is that okay?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so level one.

You do one, I'll do one. It'll be fun.

Okay, so level one. Sell and serve 10 customers. Right. That's the first level. You can't even attempt to scale until you got 10 customers. And we'll talk more about that.

How do you be your mom and your sister and your uncle?

Correct. Yeah. Ideally, 10 unaffiliated customers. So that's kind of the first level of scale. That's when the journey begins. You want to take number two.

Yes. Yeah. So then number two is to build a growth flywheel so that you have, You've got those sales. Now, how do you get that to be kind of on an automated. Like an automated system to find your product market fit and actually get things going so that your sales are kicking off on a regular basis?

Yep. So when you're. When you can say, I've got predictable sales, congrats, you have ascended through level two. So you're now beyond level two, and you're. You're at level three. And at level three, your goal is to build an upgraded, what we call a scalable operating system. So this is. Now we're moving beyond Silver.

It's not like a. Like you have to code this. Do you want to kind of just. I know we'll do a whole thing on it, but just kind of quickly. What does that mean exactly?

Yeah, it's basically getting the operations of your business out of. Out of your head. I mean, most companies operate on what we call a U os, so a U operating system. And that's good and essential in the beginning, but you go through this level, you're able to ascend the levels of scale when your business is no longer dependent upon you and your own knowledge and your own efforts and abilities. And you've got documentation, you've got a team and a communication, a hierarchy, and just everybody's aligned to all the goals. Right. It seems very basic. Most, even large companies don't do it. It's why they get stuck. So that's kind of. That's level three. Why don't you take tackle level four? Because I know this one might be your favorite.

Level 4 is near and dear to my heart. Because the purpose of a business is to pay you money. I mean, it's. We, we want to do good things in the world and have impact and all, but it's hard to do that if you don't have any money. So level four is to double your take. And one of the things that we see happening with entrepreneurs on a regular basis is that they reinvest in the business 100% of all the profits, and they're always struggling to pay their own bills and have some kind of quality of life. And the truth is, and one of our other business partners said this a long time ago, he's like, if you don't take it out, the business will find a way to spend it, because there will always be things you can spend money on. So just take the time to double your take home pay. And you and I had this conversation kind of early on in our relationship, right?

Yeah, that'll be another episode. But absolutely. I mean, one of my first mentors said scared money doesn't scale. And so it sounds crazy because I mean, you think about the first three levels of scale, getting 10 customers, building a growth flywheel, upgrading your company's operating system, and now it's like double your take home pay, basically personally put more money. It seems almost selfish, but really it is essential to building a scalable company because if you're scared about paying your own bills, you're not going to be able to think about the future of your business. So you're, you don't ascend through that fourth level of scale until you are making enough money to cover all your bills and leave at least 15% back for, for savings and investment. Just knowing that your day to day is taken care of. That's exactly, that's the fourth level.

And you talked about mentors, so that's a good one. For level five, which, which I'll let you take.

Yeah. Level five is build your board. And on level five with build your board, you have got to surround yourself with a board of advisors. Later on, maybe a board of directors. If you sell your company, if you raise some money, you may be forced to create a board of directors outside of you. But most of the entrepreneurs we're working with, they're bootstrapped. They own their companies. Maybe they got a co founder, a business partner or two. In this case, they need a board of advisors because boy, entrepreneurship is lonely. And I know for me, I have benefited when I have had mentors around me and when I've had peers around me. There's lots of ways to get at this, but you need to have a board of advisors around you or you're going to get stuck again. Each one of these is the step that you have to take to be able to ascend to the next level.

So level five is that outside perspective too is really critical because it's very easy. One of, one of the guys we both know, Roy Williams, I think, says it's hard to read the label when you're standing inside the bottle, right?

Yeah. Can't read the label from inside the jar.

Yeah. So which I, the first time I heard that, I was like, what? But basically your perspective is, it is kind of like it's hard to see the forest when you're in the trees or in the weeds. And so many of us are so having that outside perspective. And then also these people from your advisory board will have huge networks themselves. So just in terms of an access to resources standpoint, it makes sense. So you get that, that non loneliness, you know, some camaraderie. You also get outside perspective and perspective beyond your own internal, because that's very, very different. And then also access to these resources and networks these other people have, that alone can be invaluable for your company. Which then leads us to level six.

Which is take it away. This one's also your baby, which is.

To complete an acquisition for expansion, right? So there's no faster way to grow a business than to acquire another business. If you want to literally double the profits, the size, the customers, the team of your business, there's no faster way to do that than to acquire another business that has whatever it is you're looking for. We teach all about this in our epic system. But, but that's really a critical way to grow. And it's, it's one that's listed by McKinsey and a lot of the big expensive fancy consulting firms too, that the most successful, fastest growing businesses use acquisitions as one of the things that they do. So we really want you as Level 6 to complete an acquisition so that you can kind of take advantage of that as well in whatever area gets you along the way. And then that propels you to the most desirable level, which is, yeah, level seven.

And in level seven you actually hit your number, right? It's as simple as that. Level seven is when you can high five and say that you're a level seven entrepreneur. When you have hit your number now what is your number? It's going to be different for everyone. We will do an episode on how do you come up with a number. But to say that you're an entrepreneur and to not have a number is to say you're an entrepreneur. It's as simple as that. So we'll go into that. But, but yeah, that should be the goal of every entrepreneur. To hit the number and then if necessary to reset and hit reset, go through the seven level scale again. So I want to go through kind of level one and two. But there's, there's two big points that are important about this that I want everybody to keep in mind. The first is that sequence matters, okay? Sequence really matters. This is the order of operations, right? You get the 10 customers, it doesn't matter how. Then you think about automation, then you think about operating system, then you get the pay raise. Then, then, then the other thing I'll tell you is that you really can't skip a step. So there's been some folks who said, oh, I went, I went through EPIC and I made an acquisition. So does that mean that I'm a level six? Well, the answer is, it depends. You, you acquired a business or maybe you acquired an asset, but do you have a growth flywheel in place? Does this thing that you've acquired, is there an operating system in place so it can run without you?

Have you actually made more money? But if you don't have all that other stuff in place, it's not going to really serve you as well as it otherwise could.

Exactly. So sequence matters. And you can't skip steps. Right. And so that's the thing to keep in mind. But when you understand the seven levels, it should be very. I don't say easy, but simple to understand. Okay, what do I do next? Right, what do I do next? And so I think the best way to kind of jump in is to go back to the beginning and talk about what should you be doing now? If you're just getting started. Right. Is that fair?

Absolutely.

Yeah. And so here's the answer right now. If you're getting started and you have not generated, if you have not sold and served 10 customers, ideally 10 unaffiliated customers, that is the only thing you should be thinking about. And I know we get this all the time, Roland. People come to us and they're like, I'm just trying to think about, like, getting investors. Or I'm thinking about maybe I need to hire a COO or what, What.

Even before you get to me, it's before you go and get business cards and before you get a company corporation formed in my logo design, because that's busy work that isn't going to make you money. The very first thing that you need is to prove that somebody will actually pay for what you've got. And that doesn't mean asking your friends, hey, would you buy it if I did this? Yeah, man, that's a great idea. Because how many of your. I mean, how many of you have good enough friends who are, A, a good enough friend and B, comfortable enough to actually tell you, man, I don't think I'd buy that. It's so much easier for them just to say, oh, that's great, you're going to do great with that.

I love that. I love that idea. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's real. If you talk to a friend and they Say, can I buy that now? Can I buy it now? Nothing else matters until something is sold. So your very first thing is to sell. But this is big. There's two phases to this. Sell and serve. Let's say you sell 10 but you can't deliver, right? You still don't have a business. There's still no point in creating a logo for that, right? Let's say you sell 10 people, but none of them are really happy. None of them get the results. Okay? You know, you have something that people want but you can't get fulfilling the promise. You need to go back. I see this mistake all the time where people want to scale. It's like you don't have any business scaling until you have sold and served 10. So that is the first. And until you do that, I don't want to hear about like how do I automate my marketing? I need, I need, I need to build an automated email follow up series. No, you don't have you sold and served 10, right? I need all these things that people need to do and it doesn't at this point.

You don't want to automate non sales.

Yeah, you don't want to automate. You don't want to automate a turd, right? You don't know that it works or what if you can sell it but you can't deliver on it. So sell and serve 10. And what we encourage, I know we went through this exercise at Scalable Impact Live. Once you've done that, list them. Right? List them. So really to be able to say that you have it can ascend from level one to level two. It's not just that you say like, yes, I've done it, but I would encourage you go into your CRM, right, and find like who are your top 10, who are your model 10 customers? Most businesses have not done this where they've gone by name and said, yep, These are the 10 customers that I most want to model. And they wonder why they have a hard time with consistent messaging and coming up their avatars and all this stuff. So sell and serve 10, then make a list of those 10. If you got more than 10, great, still go and make the list.

And if you want to figure out how can you get the most from this and you've got thousands or tens of thousands or millions of customers now the way to do it would be to pick your top 10 customer segments and model those and think about what is the best way to serve those and how are you serving those so that you can really drill down and get the data that Ryan's talking about.

Yeah. And I do think that is good, though. Like, put a name to it. You don't have to make it public. Right. But let's think about these as the humans that they are. Even if you're B2B, right. There is a decision maker on the other end. Who's that primary point of contact. Right. So make the list of 10. Once you've done that. Congrats. High five. You can say that you've ascended beyond level one into. Into level two. So do you want to talk about kind of what it means to build a growth flywheel? You got anything else on level one?

No, I think, I think that's it. And then just, just, just do go through that step.

Don't.

It's a lot of people. It's very easy just to blow that off. I think it's really important to. We've. We've done a lot of work with a lot of companies and advised a lot of people and built a lot of our own companies. That, that, that first step shouldn't be skipped over. It. It is there for a reason. So you're, you are the kind of the architect of the growth flywheel part of this. Do you want to share kind of how that works?

Yeah. So the, the idea is, in level one, we ensured that we have product market fit, which is a fancy way of saying people want what you're selling. Right. Sold and served 10. And by the way, 10, it's arbitrary, right. Maybe you're like, I got eight. Is that good enough? Probably. It's fine, right? No, actually, you know what? No, you know, it's not 10. It's got to be 10. But the, but at that point, it doesn't matter how you get them. Right. And it doesn't even matter how automated it is. You just needed to know, did people want it? Could you fulfill it? Once you know that, now it's time to think, okay, how do we automate and perpetuate?

It's a good point. I do want to, because. Just to help maybe with this distinction between these two things, because you said it, but I want to really hammer it in, is that you can do things that don't scale to get those first 10. Like the founder of Zappos, one of my favorite examples, he wanted to build a software program site portal that sold shoes. He didn't go out and cut a thousand deals with a bunch of shoe wholesalers and manufacturers and build a website and all of that to find out if this was Going to work. He literally posted ads to get people to buy shoes, took pictures of shoes that he bought at retail, and when somebody decided they wanted to buy them, he found out what the size was that they placed the order for and went out and paid retail. Losing money on his first several sales so that he could prove that people actually would do this. That's getting the 10, then getting to level two would be how do I actually think about automating that?

Right? And now. And that's exactly it. And automation is an aspect of it. What it really comes down to is how do we make sales more predictable, right? How do we begin to build a system around this so that we can say this many coming in the top should equal this much falling out of the bottom. Right? And there's a three step process to doing this. All right, step one is you have to map what we call your growth engine, right? You've got to get there and you've got to say, okay, how are we going to generate initial awareness? Are we going to run ads? Are we going to do more of an event, trade show type model? Right. And maybe there's multiple awareness channels, but what are the two or three that are going to represent 60 to 80%, right. So you map that and you say, okay. And truly this process we just do with post it notes. I mean, if you're watching this on YouTube right now.

Mobile whiteboard.

Yeah, a mobile whiteboard, also known as a sheet of paper. Yeah, exactly. And if you're watching on YouTube, I mean behind me you can see one of these mapped, like for one of our, for one of our companies. This is what we do, right? We get there and we just map using post it notes and a whiteboard. Okay? People become aware here. Then what happens? Well, then they go to this page. Okay, then what happens? Well, maybe they opt in or they don't. Okay, then what happens? And we just map. We do basic business process mapping to map the flow. Now at our sister company, Digital Marketer, we teach the customer value journey, right? And if you do a Google search for the customer value journey, if you go to digitalmarketer.com, i think forward slash journey, you can Download. Actually@digitalmarketer.com, you can download a tool to do customer value journey mapping. It's the same thing. We're simply mapping. We're simply visualizing. We're simply documenting how do customers happen from the point of awareness to engagement subscribe, that initial point of conversion all the way up through ascension and delight, right? That is what we need to map. So having a map, a visual map of the journey, that is the first part. The second part is having a scorecard, having a scoreboard that says how is this performing? And so I see a lot of marketers and entrepreneurs creating scorecards and scoreboards. And it's just a collection of random metrics in no particular order, usually broken down departmentally. These people are tracking this and it's a lot of vanity metrics. If you want to get rid of all that, map how customers happen and then go to the first step and say how do we know this step is working? Right. What are two or three metrics or just one metric that we would know that this one is working. So if you're buying ads, I'm sorry.

Can you give an example?

Yeah. So if you're buying ads, let's say you're doing advertising on Facebook and Instagram and so that's your first step. We're going to advertise on Facebook and Instagram. Okay, how do we know that's working? Well, we're going to know what is our average cost per click? Where that's a metric that we're going to want to track. We're going to want to track what is the click through rate. And maybe we're going to want to track what is our roas, our return on ad spend. Okay, cool. And we would establish on our scorecard what is the target, what's our goal, what should it be, what is good? And then we would simply track that each week to say how we doing? Right. And then you go on to the next one, maybe the next page. You're sending people to a landing page where they're opting in for a special report or a coupon code or something like that. Well, okay, what is the conversion rate of this page? Maybe it should be 35%. So you just track that. How many total leads are we generating? Those are two. And then maybe they're going to.

Right. It doesn't have to be in some fancy software. You don't. Because a lot of people I think get lost trying to set up this reporting and then they don't ever get it because it's so hard to get all the tech to work the way it's supposed to.

Yeah, we don't allow like for our portfolio companies, we don't allow them to get fancy business intelligence. They have to do it in Microsoft Excel or Google Sheets. Yeah, they have to. I want the friction, I want a human manually entering. And then we've, we use color Coding because, like, it's hard for me to remember what good is, but I know that green is good and red is bad. Right. And so a human goes in there each week and they say for this metric, here's what it was. Right. And the next week they do it again. And each week they're updating the status to either red, red, yellow or green. And there's like a lime green if it's in between and stuff like that.

What's funny to me is that, that we've done this. When we started doing this, we realized that almost all of our reporting from our fancy tech stuff was off by something somewhere. And you guys will find that out too. I think when you do this manually, when you actually are going through and matching everything up to get this information, it really changes your perspective.

And it's amazing when somebody is accountable to a number, somebody's accountable to a metric, and when they have to enter it manually so it's not just being pulled in, they actually know their numbers. Right. As opposed to like, hey, so what's the conversion rate on the page? Oh, I don't know, Let me check. You need to just know that.

Yeah.

But if you're not frustrated with that.

That'S something that really, to me, that's a pet peeve. It's like, this is what you do. This is absolutely essential information that needs to be top of mind. If it's not top of mind, you're not thinking about how to make it better, how to fix it, what's happening. You gotta know that.

Yep. And if somebody goes and they put in a number and that number is not where it should be, and they then need to go and make it orange or red or even yellow, they know that the question that we're going to ask when it comes around for our weekly leadership meeting is why is that red and what are you doing about it? So what do they think ahead of time? What can I do to get this fixed? And all of a sudden, again, creating a growth flywheel is not just about putting in a bunch of automations. Building a growth flywheel is about aligning your sales and marketing process and the people who are responsible towards a common objective. Because it's not. There's not some magic formula implementing like this little algorithmic shift in when you're advertising and connecting, doing a zapier connection to this software over here. No, no, no. The, the way this happens and the way that flywheels start spinning is everybody agrees that this is how a customer happens. That's step One, you got to map it. Then everybody agrees this is what good is at each one of these stages. And then you create your dashboard. And then there are people who are responsible for those. Could be on your team, it could be an outside agency, right? Somebody's responsible for it. And then those people, when they're putting in the. The red or the yellow. The third piece of it is we meet quarterly to come up with a quarterly growth plan. And the whole question is, how do we turn red to yellow and yellow to green? And then when you get to a point that everything is green, how do we. What should we raise our targets to so that what was green becomes yellow? And that's how a growth flywheel spins. So people think when we talk about building a growth flywheel, it's not just about putting in marketing automation, right? That's like, yeah, that's important. That's an aspect of it. But if you don't have a comprehensive system around that, what you're going to have is people are just going to assume that, oh, the marketing automation's got it. I can just sort of sit back. Or they're going to look at a dashboard and they're going to say, well, according to the dashboard, it's fine. Have you looked in the numbers lately? Do you even know what they are?

Oh, no, it's really marketing accountability, right?

It is, yeah, it is, it is. It is. It's alignment. It's alignment accountability because it's on the front end. This is how it should be. That's the map. This is what good is. That's the scorecard. This is how we fix it when it ain't good. That's the growth planning. And so those are three elements. Growth mapping, growth scorecards, growth planning. That is what. Those are, the three elements that make up a growth flywheel. And if you map, then you measure, then you plan to improve the measurement, then you analyze. Did it work? That reinforms a new map, right? And that's the flywheel that keeps spinning. So putting that process in place, that is what Level 2 is all about. And I'll tell you, the reason most businesses get stuck is because they never do it. They got some variation of it, they got little bits and pieces of it, but they're not. They don't have all of it and they're not consistent in maintaining it. That's why most businesses never. I'll tell you, this is the thing that, that gets businesses stalled out at seven figures, right? That, that you can get to seven figures without a growth flywheel. You can force your way there. I've never been involved in a company that broke through beyond seven in the high seven figures and eight figures that didn't have some kind of flywheel that had all those elements.

So if you're stuck at seven figures, this is definitely the place. And a lot of people are. This is the place, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, I guess the good. So the bad news is you're at level two out of seven, which that can, as we're talking about this, like, that can be really disheartening. But I want you actually to be encouraged and say, oh, crap, I'm stuck at level two and yet I'm still doing okay.

And you've got a plan. That's the nice thing about the seven levels, right? You actually have a plan.

Yeah. You know exactly what you need to do. I'm not going to worry about hiring a CEO or doing this other stuff. I'm not going to throw a bunch of people at it. I'm not going to invest in any expensive systems to solve this. Map your growth engine, document your growth scorecard, and then have a regular planning and optimization cadence. And once you've done that, you're good.

And can we. Do we have a resource for this that we could put for the growth flight wheel or anything like that that we could put into or maybe even just as a link to the CVJ that we'll put in?

Yeah, I mean, I think if you go to. So this is what. So our sister company, Digital Marketer, focuses on that almost exclusively. I will tell you, for those of you who are at. If you're listening to this and you're. You're interested in this, go to 7. We're putting up a page at 7levelsofscale.com where we're going to be breaking this.

Down spelled out or both.

Both. So you could do the number seven or seven spelled out. But yeah, seven levels of scale. Com. We'll throw in some additional information resources. We also have an assessment tool there that'll help you figure out kind of where you are and some additional steps. But. But yeah, I mean, what I hope this brings to people is clarity. Like, what do I do now? Like, what do I do next? If we can answer that question and give you a plan and a path, then I think that alone is going to make a big difference in your business.

I like it. So that's basically level, kind of an overview of the seven levels and then levels one and two. We'll either. We'll kind of see how our conversation offline goes, we'll either dive a little bit more into the growth flywheel and maybe give you a couple of examples next episode or we'll hop into the operating system. But we're going to be going through these seven levels over the next several episodes and I think it'll be really helpful to you guys.

Yeah, we do have, I mean we offer an accelerator that is, that's a premium offering, which is code for paid where, where we walk people through the process of building a growth flywheel. And this is obviously when we're helping people build their operating systems. That is one of the steps in creating an operating system. So which I know we'll talk about if not next week, then the week after. But yeah, I mean this is this kind of stuff, working through this. This is what we do. And it was so much fun at Scalable Impact Live to see people for the, to teach this and to walk through this process at, at scale in a room full of people and to watch everybody with their large sheets of paper and their little post it notes and planning out. And I'm going like, oh, I think this is how customers happen. Like now I know what to do. I know how to optimize this because I can visualize it. It's pretty powerful.

I love it.

Awesome. Well, anything else, Ryan, before we sign off for this episode?

No, no, I would tell. Just focus on if you are there and you have not sold and served 10, that's the only thing you need to think about. Okay, that's it. Just go and get 10 customers. We don't care how you get it, obviously legally, ethically, but if you got to dress up in a gorilla suit and dance on the sign, spin on the corner if you got a cold call, cold email, whatever you've got to do, sell and serve 10. If nothing else, let's, let's make sure that you're getting to level one.

There's another free resource at Digital Marketer that I would Google as well that might help you there as you're looking at those 10 or even thinking about who those 10 might be if you don't already have them, would be to go and do the customer avatar worksheet because that's really a helpful thing too. It might help you figure out who are my ideal customers and how do you create an ideal customer profile. And you might find that you've got three or four or five of those avatars and Brian created a really, really great worksheet for that and that's free also at Digital marketer.

Yeah, yeah. If you just Google customer avatar, worksheet, digital marketer. Because there's lots of them out there. I mean, obviously we didn't invent the concept of a customer avatar or anything like that.

It's really good. The one that you did though, I think it brings in a lot more insight than most of the ones I've seen.

Yeah, it's way more practical. I would avoid the ones where it's like give your person a name and what's their favorite. It's like, oh my God. None of this has anything to do with stuff that actually matters. Right? So like I would watch out for those. There's a lot of just kind of, I don't know, play marketing. In my opinion, we're talking about the nitty gritty stuff that actually works for entrepreneurs. So yeah, customer avatar, worksheet, digital marketer should be able to find a free resource out there. Maybe we can even drop a direct link in the show notes.

Yeah, we'll talk to him about that and then the customer value journey also. So those are two things that I would say would be great tools that we've got available that you can go and download and kind of get started with this stuff and with that. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. If you're enjoying this, as we hope you are, then please leave us a review, a five star review. We really appreciate one star reviews. I mean, just find something else to do.

Just email Roland directly. Yes.

And if you like it, also subscribe so that you don't miss any of these. Especially now because we're kind of doing a little sequential thing here where we're going to walk through all seven levels. You want to be sure that you're here for all of those. Thank you guys for listening and we'll see you next time.

You've been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

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