The Future of Real Estate Investing with Aaron Amuchasetgui

We were able to buy some competitors because there's different counties where there was two people selling the list and they were doing the same work. And I remember buying that company and it was really cool because let's say his revenue was $100,000 a year and he was only making $20,000 a year profit. I realized I could buy that company and I could buy the revenue without buying any of the expenses.

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Hey, everybody. Roland Frazier here with another episode of Business Lunch. And I'm excited to welcome our guest today, Aaron Amuchistegi. Did I say it right?

You said it right. That was awesome, Roland. Thanks for having me. Good to chat with you.

Nice. Good to chat with you. And I'm actually, for anybody that's watching, happy that you were able to make it because that looks like a very, very busy board behind you. Like, lots and lots of stuff going on.

Yeah. You know, it's funny. You can also tell I have kids. So the top of the board has all the notes and color coordinated business stuff going on, and the bottom two feet of it is just all of the drawings that my kids put on there and little messages.

That's what makes it fun though, right?

Yeah, makes it pretty awesome.

Well, so tell us a little bit about you and your kind of entrepreneurial journey so far.

Yeah, I've had quite the entrepreneurial journey. I worked for a real estate home builder in 05, so I was an employee. I was an employee and I got to see the home building stuff going and I always wanted, I wanted to be a business owner in that sort of entrepreneur stuff. But I didn't really know how that was going to take. My first endeavor into entrepreneurship though was when the housing market crashed in like 0809 and all of us were scrambling to try to find something.

What were you doing at that time? So you came into the business really in 05, had a couple of years, and then 7, 8, 9 was the Great Recession. So what were you into at that time? And then how did that impact you?

Yeah, it was crazy too, because 2005, I like graduated in construction management, height of the housing boom, heavily recruited. And we're building houses so fast, we're golfing like two or three days a week. Because as soon as we could build the houses, they're selling. It was like epitome of the peak. And then crashed and quickly went from like getting paid too much to golf to. We were like putting our construction bags back on, cleaning up houses, trying to do these bank workouts for the builder that I worked for. They laid off like 75 out of. Out of 80 people. And it was just a. It was just really, really gnarly just to go from like so big to seeing houses. And this was Northern California at the time. Like that we're selling for 700 now, selling for 250. And of course, course that's going to make the world go bad. So. So that was like that first experience and then it was like, what are we going to do? Like, my wife's now she's a waitress as a night at the casinos. I'm going through the day and we're trying all these different businesses. We're trying to buy REOs from agents because we were home builders. So that was our experience. And then. And kind of kept trying to do different things and discovered almost by accident, courthouse step investing. When we got there, there was only two other guys doing it in Northern California. We were the third, really, man. And the funny thing was it was this huge opportunity that you can't ever really redo history because the third person in 2009 discovering this, but trying to raise money in 2009 when I didn't, when I didn't have any, and when the whole world had just lost all their money and were scared, that was right. People wanted to invest, but people, People were also scared of the market.

What is the just for? So that everybody can understand. What is courthouse step investing?

Yeah, so courthouse step investing is when. When somebody goes and buys a house, 90% of the people that buy a house, they get a loan, they go, they go to. Of America and they say I want to buy this house for 300,000. Bank of America says, that's great. You can put a $30,000 down payment, and then you're going to make us $2,500 payments for the next 30 years.

Cool.

Everybody gets a loan, totally normal. And what. But if somebody stops paying that loan, you know, they decide they don't want to pay the $2,500 a month anymore. There's a process that the bank can go through. They say it's foreclosing on the property. So if you stop making payments for a certain amount of time, eventually the bank can decide to foreclose on you. In 2007 and 2008, at foreclosures, was foreclosures kind of like listed on the market with a sign out front and they said, reo. So the bank takes them to the courthouse and says the opening bid is $200,000 or 300,000. Whatever it is, the amount of the note. If nobody bids on it, it becomes a foreclosure. It's essentially they say, okay, nobody bid on it. Now the bank owns the property. That's how bank owned works. What Courthouse Steps Investing is, is going and actually bidding against the bank or against others where they say, here's the opening bid. And it was not common at all in 2009. It got really common by 2010, 2011, and. And now is kind of just one of the facets of doing real estate business.

And are you.

Because you have a pretty significant investment portfolio in real estate, correct?

Yeah. 2009 to 2013, I finally found people to invest in me. We bought and sold like a thousand houses. Courthouse Step Investing, we did really, really good. But I was not an investor. I didn't own any businesses. I didn't own any rentals. And I lost it all in 2013 when a bunch of people came into the market. Essentially, a lot of competitors came into the market. You know, Blackstone and American Homes for Rent. And those guys came in. And I had a big, expensive company. Lots of overhead, lots of company cars. And I hadn't ever thought there would be a day where we'd go from being the biggest buyer to not buying any. So 2015, I discovered going out to Texas, nobody was doing the Courthouse Steps out there in 2015. At the time, I'd fly out, I'd buy, you know, 10 houses a month and fly back. So we've acquired since 2015, we acquired hundreds of houses. Some were just me and my wife, a lot of more with investment funds and partners and people that had more. When I first started investing, I had no money at all. It was always buying house with other people's money. And so, yeah, so bought most of our. At least three quarters of the houses we have now, we bought at foreclosure auctions when. When Covid hit. We had to find other ways to start buying houses instead. But, yeah, we did. We did really well in the courthouse steps.

How did you find money when there was none? When you were first getting into this.

It was a lot of. The very first, in 2009, 2010, it was real, like, so dad was the first investor. He had enough money to help me with, like, one house and even that first one in a story that I think any sort of entrepreneur should hear about. When I first had to talk him into it, it said, you don't pay me at all. I will do this for free to show you how good this opportunity is and to show you how good of a partner I can be on this. And so when I first was doing that, it was, hey, I'll do this for free for a couple houses. And then he reached out to a couple buddies, and I started kind of presenting to each of them. And I would get really small pieces of the pie. I'd say, I'll take 10% of the profit when I was new, and then I'll take 20% of the profit. And as I was getting more experience, that went from getting really small profit percentages to where investors started doing loans. But really, when you're looking for investors, you have to put yourself out there. But then also, when you do get to make that presentation, you've got to be prepared. So doing tons of research ahead of time. Even before I had only bought a couple houses on the courthouse steps, I was able to show them, like, months worth of data from if I had been there. Right. I was going through the motions ahead of time to be like, I'm running this business as if I'm an investor, but I don't have it yet. And so when I went to do those first pitches, I had lots of data to share, and I was willing to take a very small amount to prove myself.

So do you see anything happening right now that feels familiar about either 2007, 8, 9, 2013?

Oh, yeah. I don't think the downside is going to be as bad as the downside back then, but something that was happening a lot back then was we went from getting tons and tons of offers on houses, and, you know, there was this feeling I remember in, like, 2005 I had that job working for the home builder. I was making a lot of money, but I couldn't afford to buy one of our houses. And my wife and I kept going out every weekend. And we got to a point where we're like, we have been priced out of this market and we kind of gave up. The prices had kept going up, kept going up. We missed these opportunities. We couldn't get qualified fast enough. And I remember thinking, we can't afford to do this anymore. And there was also a lot of stuff going on where people would buy from builders in the first phase. Like the builder would say, here's the house, we're going to sell it for 300,000. People would go sign up, and by the time the house was built nine months later, the house would be worth 400,000. And people would sell. And they go, easiest money in the world, Free money in the world. And mortgage brokers making a bunch of money. That's a lot of what we've seen over the last year. We saw people buying houses, a year later, they're worth 20, 30% more. I've done it myself, buying from a builder. The day that I closed on it from the builder, I sold it on MLS to someone else. I only owned it for a few days. That was. We saw a lot of that back in 05, and we're seeing a lot of that over the last year. So the price increases we've seen over the last few years are very familiar to what we saw before that last peak. The slowdown we're seeing now feels a lot like that too. When they started raising interest rates in 07, that's when we started to see it slow down just a little bit. And then that a little bit quickly became a lot. And so I'm being very cautious with my investments right now. Like last year, in January, we bought everything we possibly could because we felt like prices were going up. And right now what we're trying to do is kind of slow down. One thing that happened a couple months ago I think is really noteworthy for, like, changes in the real estate market. I had a $5 million refinance where I had locked a loan, 30 year fixed, you know, cash out refinance, essentially 75% loan to value. And we're working on it. We're two months in on this thing and we've done all the thing and the bank calls and says, we're sorry, this is in February. We are not going to fund this loan and we are going to let your loan, your rate lock expire And I said what I thought it was brilliant, Roland, because the interest rates had started to go, go up. But when I started, this was back in like December. And I was like, oh man, I locked this before prices went up and the bank said, we're actually not going to fund it because if we do, no one's going to buy it on the back end because rates have gone up so high. So now you're out of luck. I am still in the process now of trying to refund that package. It's June, interest rates half a percent higher. And so that's something that like, is just a sign of. So by now that money would be reinvested again. I would have cashed out refi. I would have bought properties again. And so the tougher. As higher interest rates go up, demand goes down. And then these commercial type refinance packages, as those go out, there's just less, like, there's just less money in the market in the world. Another thing we've seen is mortgage brokers. With those rates going up, more than half of volume and income mortgage brokers get is from refinances. Last year it was a super easy call. Somebody could become a mortgage broker. They could call their buddy and say, hey, I can get you 50,000 bucks out on your house and your payment's going to go down. Would you like to do that? And they're like, yes, I want to do that. They can't make that call anymore. So they're big layoffs in the mortgage industry that's there. So there's a lot of money that was pushed into real estate that was going to drive. So I think prices will probably, you know, maybe go up a couple percent this next year, but we're not going to see 20% increases again. And I think the, the weird properties, the funky properties out there, I don't think those are going to sell. I think that I think we'll start to see some big price corrections. We've seen days on market going up a lot right now. Yeah.

And for the first time in a long time here in California. I see softening. I see not. We're getting 22 bids over with first. First naming of children rights plus, you know, all cash to. Hey, we just lowered it $200,000, which is kind of interesting. I want to take a break for our sponsor for a minute and then come back and talk about what you think people should do now and then also find a little bit more about what you're buying because you've invested outside of the Real estate industry a bit as well, correct?

Yep.

Cool. So we'll take a break and we'll come back and we'll talk about some of that fun stuff.

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Okay, so one thing that I'm very curious about is we've talked about kind of what is changing and how is it similar to what it was before? And we've got the. I think it was the head of the Dallas Fed just said, we're going to keep doing half point raises in the interest rate until inflation comes into control. Which is tough because I think that's what happened. I mean, actually it's happened in several recessions where they keep raising and don't give enough time for that to take effect. And then they throw the economy into a recession. So most of the people I talk to right now is like, I don't know what to do with real estate because the prices are too high. And you know, if I sell my house that's appreciated even just as a personal investor in it, where do I go? And, you know, how do I get another loan that's not that now rates are twice what they used to be. So what is your suggestion for folks now that are still interested in real estate but are kind of like, man, I just don't know what to do.

Yeah, what the Fed's doing is pretty scary for long term investing because the early 80s, I was a kid back then, but I remembered living in it because my dad was a home builder at the time. And so many of my investors that I look up to and listen to experience that. And right now the Fed is saying they really like look up to what they did in the 80s. They said, we want to be like them. And if you talk to investors from back then, guys in their 70s and 80s will say, hey, yeah, they saved the economy and they ruined the real estate market and they ruined, you know, business investors. And just like you said, it does take six months every time they do something in the rates, it actually takes six months to feel the effects of that. They keep going deeper and deeper and deeper because people still have rate locks. So even in for normal people that locked their rate in February, even though rates went up now, they're still able to fund on those old, older loans. The people that are deciding to buy today, they're the ones that are locking in these five and three quarters. Big difference. So in six months from now, we'll see a bigger change in that. So I think if there's a couple things out there, if people really, really want to be real estate investors, right? And they're trying to figure out where to buy. What I'm trying to do right now is I'm trying to lock in the longest escrows I can on the purchase, on the purchase size to feel out a little bit. Meaning. So like new home construction, if they have phases that are selling now or six months from now. I still really like the idea of buying new home offers. You put down three to $5,000 as a deposit and you have six months to decide if you're going to close. And when six months hits, you can get a lot better feeling for, you know, what are rates doing now? How strong is the market, you know, Is a lot of stuff selling in that area. The upside is, you know, maybe at the time of closing the house is worth 20 or $30,000 more. 10, 5, 5% more, let's say. And the downside is you lose out on that small deposit. So for some people that like want to invest in real estate, they don't want to have fomo. In case this year is like last year, those new build type stuff, six month escrows are a great way to feel like you're doing a little bit of an investment without having the fomo.

Interesting. And are those deposits typically refundable or subject to financing or something that you might be able to get them back or are they.

Pretty much.

That's your bet.

So you can usually put a financing subject in there. That'll have to get cleared out within 60 or 90 days though. So the. So yes, at the time, but it's like a risk version. It's almost like buying a stock option in the real estate market.

Because I hadn't thought about that. I think it's really cool.

All the ones we did last year turned out really well. But there were some, there were some more recent that were getting ready for closing and we're like, oh, it is worth more. It was kind of like at the time we locked it in, we were buying it for more than it was worth today. But we were thinking, well and we. And it actually got up to the time we're like, let's not close it. There isn't. It's actually not worth what we built into it. So that's kind of, that's one option out there. The option of the other thing to do in falling markets or in possible fall. Possible falling markets that might not be seeing that is just going back to the traditional buy, fix and flip real estate. Because there still are, there's a lot of people that are getting default notices right now for they're going into foreclosure, they're getting notices that say, hey, you've got to pay this. But what we have now that we didn't have back in 05 or 09 and 2010 is all of them have equity. So all these people are saying, hey, you're going to get foreclosed on, but you've got $100,000 in equity. You know, real estate people should be reaching out to people like those buying directly from them and doing that fix and flip. Because even in a falling market, let's say the market starts decreasing 10% a year, you can do fix and flips and still make money during that. It's just a lot. It's just a lot more active money to be able to do. It's a lot. It's a lot harder. So still buying stuff at a discount, buying distressed housing, people that are struggling financially and trying to come up with some creative solutions, that's what we're going to do a lot of this year. We're going to do a lot less of like the buy and hold and a lot more of the shorter term. Hey, I can sell this in 90 days and get out of it if I have to.

Okay. And then do you play around with any of the Airbnb type things where you're doing short term rentals within the houses that you own or buy?

Yeah. And Airbnb is great. Airbnb is great if you have it in the right market. It is a. It's a fun business. It's not really real estate though, Roland. It's like, it's, it's like owning a hotel. So it's pretty cool. Like, it's fun. I really liked doing it. And when Covid hit, the first month or two after that, we were like, oh, I had this giant house in Northern California and all. At first all the weddings canceled, all the Airbnbs canceled. And I was like, oh my gosh, what are we going to do? And I was thinking, I'm going to have to sell this house. And it used to be just like corporate retreats because it had 16 beds in the house, right?

Yeah.

And then two months into Covid, all these people from the Bay Area started saying, hey, we've been stuck in the house all the time. In San Francisco, you got 10 acres up there with a pool and we're going to come up with a couple families. So Airbnb really showed if there is ever sort of like weird stuff shutting down. I think Airbnb survives more than the average hotel. And that was, that was kind of a surprise because it was a way for people to travel. Even if there's weird restrictions in life, the rule of thumb for air, and there's even some people that'll lend on Airbnb stuff. Right now. I think Airbnb is a very good investment and it's a good plan for somebody as long as the regular rent for that property could probably break you, even if you've got a transition back. Yeah, if it rents for 2000 normally, it's probably going to be Airbnb of like a $4,000 a month. So people like Airbnb because it's More profitable, but it takes a lot more work. But you don't want to buy something with like a $3,000 a month loan that would normally only rent for 2,000. And we saw a little bit of that last year. People over buying on Airbnb because they're like, oh, on a daily rate, it's a $10,000 a month income type house that's not as guaranteed. And you have the slow months, too, that you'll get 40 to 50% occupancy.

Yeah. And you're kind of giving away your profit. If you're like, yeah, you can rent it out for so much more, therefore pay us this much that you'll have a high payment. You're like, but that's my money for doing that. Right.

Not.

I don't give that to you just because you say I can do that.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. So it's a fun business, but it was the. Those are like the only investments where we feel like we have a job because, you know, you get people that are calling and, and they're making complaints. A regular renter, if their AC goes out, you've got within your lease, like, you have to do that in the next week or so and you have to make a good effort. But if it's Friday night at 7 o', clock, there's nothing you have to do. If you have a Airbnb person that calls you Friday at 7 o' clock at night and their AC went out, you've got to go over there and fix it. Yeah. And you got to find somebody fix it right away.

Yeah. Now, you've also kind of done some things outside of real estate. Would you share a little bit about that?

Well, so the business ownership stuff, it's still real estate related. Right. When I first discovered, you know, foreclosures in Texas, there was a company out there selling spreadsheets to buy foreclosures. And I came from California, where we had this fancy software and I built this fancy software, and I originally reached out to them saying, hey, I want to sell my software to your customers. In 2009 and the courthouse steps, I was one of three people in 2012 in California, there was 300 people. And I remember thinking, the only guy making money here is Sean o', Toole, the guy that who Software, Property Radar, the software everybody had in their hands. So when I went to Texas, that was one of the ultimate hedges is if I could own the software and the company that sells the foreclosure data, eventually there will be hundreds of people at auction Again, and I can do that. So. So one of my companies, Roddy's Foreclosure Listing Service, is. Sells the foreclosure data in Texas and nationwide, but also helps people kind of manage that process to where they could do that. When I first bought it, it was. I thought it was a SaaS, right? But it was really a recurring revenue company. I thought it was software as a service, but it was really about the data and less about the software. We're trying to get. We're trying to make the software better with that and to where it's truly more the software than the data. But right now the data is hard to get. In Texas you have to go to each courthouse, you have to manually have a lot of bodies go get it so that there isn't a lot of competition in that sense. But that's kept us from being able to scale it properly in other states where if it was purely software. Some of the coolest things that I've done inside that company, though. I know you talk a lot about buying businesses and things like that. We were able to buy some competitors because there's different counties where there was two people selling the list and they were doing the same work. We were both sending people to the courthouse to go do the data and do the research. We both had people at auction. And I remember buying that company and it was really cool because let's say his revenue was $100,000 a year and he was only making $20,000 a year profit. I realized I could buy that company and I could buy the revenue without buying any of the expenses, right? So that was. So I bought his company for $100,000 and it instantly added a hundred thousand dollars net profit to our bottom line. So that got me super excited about these software companies. So most of our software companies are all kind of real estate and foreclosure related. Lead Propeller is another one where people build, you know, website templates if they want Roland device houses in Sacramento. You know, you sign up, they pay 40 bucks a month, they get those templates. And then we've also done some. We have some businesses that are. We have a book called the Five Hour School Week, which is about when we pulled our kids out of school and started homeschooling. You know, that's. That's kind of. That's one of the businesses and then a lot of different real estate investments where I've started to learn about, you know, storage units and apartment complexes and where I find people for people that find me that are really good and smart at that, that say, hey, can we partner on this sort of stuff?

That's really cool. Now, if you were going to share some tools, tactics, or resources for people that wanted to kind of get into the stuff that you're doing or get into the real estate game at this point, what would you suggest? You mentioned a couple, I think that you own, which is great.

Yeah, yeah. The. So getting into real estate is, you know, there's a lot of stuff that people can do for free, right? Like going on Zillow and looking at houses in their neighborhood is what, you know, and seeing, you know, kind of what works. People love doing that. They love seeing that and going, I wonder how much houses sell for over here. You know, there's a. The Bigger Pockets podcast is huge for people that are trying to just learn a little bit about, you know, what sort of investor they want to be. So a lot of people say, I want to be in real estate. And they'll tell me, aaron, I want to own my own business. I want to be in real estate. I'm ready to quit my job and do this. And I'd say, don't quit your job until you know exactly what you're going to do next week. I remember quitting my job, my paid job, to become an entrepreneur. And I've seen people quit, and then on Monday, they're like, they're sitting there waiting, and they don't know what they're going to be working on next. And so I'd say if you want to become an entrepreneur, you got to come up with a plan. So when you quit your job, you, like, know your schedule Monday through Friday, like, because you're not just working 40 hours a week anymore. Now you're actually working 80 for this new, newer dream. So the BiggerPockets podcast can help people figure out which way they want to do it. You know, what sort of investing they would want to do. And there's lots of different books and resources available with that if people are interested in, like, foreclosure type investing or distressed investing. I've got a book called it's not. I get. It's like a $10 book. I get paid a dollar every time someone buys it. So it's not like a profit machine. It's called Bidding to Buy. It was published by Bigger Pocke, and it says secrets about buying on the courthouse steps. But they're every secret that I ever had on how to do the business is in there. And it teaches people how to. How to comp houses like comping houses for, like, what's the house going to be worth when I fix it? How to come up with, you know, how much it's going to cost to be able to do it. How to come up with a foreclosure list if you're in a state in the middle of nowhere where nobody sells that list. But I think it's a great book for anybody thinking about investing in real estate because it talks about all the different stages and breaks up some of those resources. So, yeah, Bidding to Buy is a great book.

Cool. And you have a podcast as well, right?

Yeah. So the. So I know that when people want to start flipping, I recommend Bigger Pockets because it's the biggest one out there. Investing in real estate. I have a podcast too, that I host. It's called the Real Estate Rockstars podcast. It's the largest podcast out there for real estate agents. You know, so people want to get. Want to get into real estate and they want to become an agent. There's a lot of. The whole point of the podcast is everybody gets on there and they share all of their secrets and tactics because they're not competing against most of the people that are listening. So in real estate and a lot of businesses, people don't want to share their secrets because they're worried about competitors. The Real Estate Rock Stars podcast, we make sure everybody gives us their secrets, knowing that, you know, most of the people listening are in total other states and they just need help getting started. And so it's a great resource for investing and how to get going. If you are thinking about a career in real estate.

Well, we, we have to talk separately then. We. I, I've owned part of an agency that's. We've got about 1100 agents here in California and that's called Big Block Realty. And so I didn't know that you were into the agent part of it as much as well. So that's really cool to find out. I love that. Nice. And so for people, besides the podcast, which again is.

Yeah, it's a real estate Rockstars podcast, you go to realestateradio FM or just search for Real Estate Rockstars.

Okay. In addition to that, for people that want to reach out and kind of follow up and find out more about what you do or get in touch with you, what are the best ways that they might do that?

I love social media, man. It's been. We just, we just held a mastermind and it was in Austin and it was so cool when people, I got to meet people for the first time. And I felt like we were old friends because we'd met on social media and been chatting on social media. Instagram is the best place where people can find me. I'm the only Aaron and much on there. I hope. Maybe there's, maybe there's some. Everybody has like copiers now. But find the Aaron Much message me on there. Follow me. I put tips and tricks. I do a lot of stuff about market predictions on there. Most of the content I put is like, hey, here's what the Fed said this week. Here's what we're seeing with, with the market. I love analyzing the news out there and trying to tell people, you know, what it's really saying.

Is Instagram your favorite channel?

Yeah, Instagram is my favorite channel for quick interacting back and forth and I get a lot of my content on there. I'm also on, you know, on Facebook and do a lot of messaging back and forth on Facebook and it's just, it's always like two different, you know, sets of messages. Some people love one, some people love, love the other. So I'll be on, I'll be on both of them. You find me on either of them, send me a message. I'll reach out, I'll, I'll talk back to whoever messaged me.

So the spelling on your name will be here any at the, in the notes and everything. But just for those who are only listening and want to kind of rem. Will you give them the Aaron because they can spell that different ways.

Yeah, yeah. The so Aaron and Muchi Steggi But I say it so fast. People like does that start with a U? Because you start with an N. So last name is A M U C H A S T E G U I if you get the amu C H A it'll probably auto fill after that because it's, it's not very common as we were laughing about.

That's great. Awesome. Well Aaron, thank you man. I really appreciate you hanging out with us today and look forward to checking out more of what you're doing and then maybe connecting on our agency thing.

Yeah, cool. Thanks for letting me share my story.

Awesome. Thanks everybody. This concludes this episode. We will see you next time. If you're enjoying what we're talking about here. We'd love for you to subscribe so you don't miss out on anything. And also if you want to give us a nice five star review, that's always appreciated too. We'll see you next time on Business Lunch.

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