The Secret to Authentic Connections (For People Who Hate Networking!)

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode. In this case, it's the networking episode of Business Lunch because Ryan and I consider ourselves to be pretty much the best networkers on the planet. Would you agree with that, Ryan?

I would not agree with that, not for any stretch of the imagination. Just to set this up, Roland's like, I think we need to do an episode on network. And I was like, I think that'd be great because I'm— I suck at it. I'm not very good at networking. Roland's like, do you think I'm good at it? I'm like, Yeah, I think you're really great at it. He's like, well, I don't. It's like, cool. So networking tips from two people who both think they suck at networking, go.

Why? But this is who you want to listen to, guys, because, uh, uh, it, it's— you want— like, networking is something that a lot of people absolutely dread. When— if you told me I was going to a networking event, or Ryan, we would do everything we possibly could to get out of it. Is that correct?

Or just just get it, like, not even go. Like, even if we couldn't, still not go. Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, like, like ninja smoke bomb. Like, like I went and then like, you actually do that. So Roland does this. Roland, we will go to— I'm not going to say which. There is a group that we're a part of, like, and the organizer likes to put on these like really big networking parties, like flashy celebrities and all this stuff. I mean, like literally like TMZ will be there. Like paparazzi will be there because of the quality, like because of the people that are in the room, obviously not there for us. And we'll be like, all right, we're going to do it.

Let's do it.

We're going to go. We're going to freaking network. It's networking time. And I'll like psych myself up. You're like, all right, yeah, I'm definitely going to go. And I'll turn around, man. And like 5 minutes in, you just vanished. Like, where are you? It's like, yeah, I'm in the car. I'm back to the hotel. So, yeah. So that's a good setup. We both hate this and yet we both do it.

Yeah, so here's, here's, well, here to me, here's the takeaway. So, um, you have to think about what, what is networking? To me, networking is meeting people that you don't currently have a relationship with and maybe that you've never met before who can potentially broaden your connection to other people. Let's just say that. So there's not necessarily a business component to it. Even though when most people talk about networking, they're talking about it from a business standpoint. But I, I would argue that you never know who you meet is going to know in their network, and therefore you really shouldn't have it as a business agenda. And I think that without a pre-agreed-upon, um, expectation that everyone is there to meet for business, it's kind of what I would call transactional networking. Which I don't think is long-term effective.

So like, and that's what people teach. Like, if you read a book on networking, or you and I know like networking experts, I, I generally tend to find a lot of what gets taught out there like not only just ineffective, but like super cringe. Like, I don't want to do it, and I can tell when it's being done to me. Like, you know, the person who walks up there and they're just a little bit too slick, and, and the first question is always like, hey, so What can I do for you? Like, what's going on in your world? Like, what can I do for you? And I feel obligated to give them some, you know, profound answer when it's like, I'm generally fine, but I just feel like somebody gave me homework. Like, I hate that. Like, what are—

do you have any other examples from like your world, your experience that people do that you're like, bleh? All of that. It's all of that, you know, everything from, you know, it's, it's ambush networking where that, that we're, you know, or, or in a group setting, very often it's like, okay, we're going to do a networking tables. Everybody's going to break up at the meeting and the tables and then, you know, say what your biggest challenge is. It's like, I mean, I'm working on all my challenges and I've tried to work on this as a, you know, as a, hey, I must have a limiting belief around that, you know, that I'm good with all my challenges and I'm not good at accepting help. I am, but I know I'm good at accepting help, but I'm not good at accepting help in a forced group environment with people I don't know because I don't know that I should trust them yet. And I don't know that I— I don't know that I should trust the advice or referrals they give me. And I don't know that I want to be vulnerable with those people about things that could be, you know, competitive disadvantages in the wrong hands. So it's, you know, I think that asking asking somebody to do that without any context or experience is, is tough for a lot of people. And so that's why I wanted to do an episode on networking, because I don't think you or I— if you drop us in that TMZ room type environment, or you drop us into a Chamber of Commerce party, or most other things— I don't think either of us is going around and expanding our network by leaving with any contacts, uh, but let's say that we accidentally, you know, leave with one or two. We're definitely not leaving with a pocket full of business cards and we're going to follow up and reach out. That's just not going to happen, right? So, so that's why I like us talking about it, because if you're that other person, then you're networking just fine, uh, but you may learn something here that's different. And so what I would argue—

networking for normal people.

Yeah, networking for non-networkers.

Love it.

So, um, so the first thing would be there are transactional— there's transactional networking and there's actual networking. And transactional networking is I'm going in with an agenda that there's something that I want to get from these people who I'm meeting, and I'm going to try to think of something I can give them, hopefully, but sometimes not, um, that I can give them to cause them to give me the thing that they have that I already know I want. To me, that's a really short-term kind of thing, and it— there's not anything wrong with it. That would be in like a BNI or Latip or, um, uh, you know, those, those networking groups where you're supposed to come with a couple of leads. And if you're actively looking for leads, you'll probably find them. I mean, I, I'm sure that we could send a lot of business to a lot of people if we were actively thinking about how can I find business for these people. And so a group like that could be very good for you, particularly if you're just getting started. Now, I think that you and I have pretty extensive networks that were, you know, we call it, talk about accidental entrepreneurs. I think that we are accidental networkers because whenever either of us talks to someone and we do talk, we're curious. So you're going to ask somebody if you meet them now, not at a, you know, rubber chicken dinner or those standup tables with too many people in the room, but if you get introduced to someone, or even if you're, say, sitting down somewhere and there's somebody next to you, you're very likely to strike up a conversation. Either they're going to talk to you or you're going to talk to them, and then you're going to say, so what do you do? They're going to tell you, and then you're going to be curious and you're going to ask questions about what it is they do, both because it's socially cool to do that and because it's very awkward to go, all right, that's great. Yeah, look at you, for you, finger guns. But, um, but But when you do, they're going to start talking about them, which is going to be their favorite subject to talk about because it usually is for all of us, right? And when they start talking, if you are curious and you ask more than, you know, the most surface-level question, then an actual conversation will come about that might cause you to feel that you connect with them in some way. And that then can lead to networking. Now, what both you and I will also do is if there's anything based on what they say that we could offer as perspective or help or experience to share, we're going to do that because that's just who we are, right? And so if you can, you know, even if like you're not a generous person like that or you're not a curious person to start out with, create and cultivate curiosity and create and cultivate a sincere interest in other people it's actually fulfilling to learn about what other people do and what challenges they have, and then give them any perspective you've got. Not like, I know it all and I'm telling you how you should solve your problem, but just asking questions can be like that curious questioning kind of, uh, connection can be really, really good. And what ultimately happens is there's going to be some benefit that they're going to get which will trigger reciprocity, and, um, and they'll want to do something for you. And then if you did feel that you had any connection, you're going to exchange contact information, and you're likely to stay connected. Maybe you thought of a connection you could make, in which case I'll text them together right there, because if I don't, I'll never do it. Uh, and, you know, like, what, what is it that I can do for this person? And I don't expect anything back is always, to me, the best way to approach that kind of situation. And by doing that, I have thousands of people in my phone that I can reach out to, and probably, you know, 400 or 500 that I know well. And I know you've got a pretty extensive network there too. And, um, and then when we come together in business, my network is your network and your network is mine. And like, that expansion just really explodes, and it turns out you're very connected. But you didn't mean to be. You weren't, you know, howdy and a handshake at every function to get to know them, because those usually are not going to be lasting connections. They're not going to actually turn into somebody that's in your network. They'll be in a, you know, they'll be a contact in your billions of contacts, but they won't have any context or any experience in any investment in the relationship to where you would actually be able to think about doing something for them. So I think that's like the— that first level of networking for non-networkers. And the second level is—

can I, can I, can I speak on, on that just a little bit? Because you said, you said a couple things I think are so important that I haven't heard anybody articulate it quite the same way. Good networking is curious, not strategic. Yes, right. That's what real true relational networking is. Is you are genuinely seeking to know the other person. You're not simply being strategic and trying to figure out, okay, what's something they need that I can connect something to so I can extract value from?

And so I would call it— I, I, the, the only— I agree with you. The only distinction I might make is it is strategic, it's not transactional. Because strategically, you might choose to, uh, if you're in the Uh, if you're in the pool cleaning business and you want to network in the pool cleaning business, you might attend functions for where you knew that people like that would be. Uh, or if you're looking for funding or financing, you might go to a venture capital or growth— you know, you might hang out in those worlds. That's strategic but not transactional. Does that, does that make sense?

Yeah. And I was thinking more strategic in like your line of questioning, like you're just genuinely asking questions, you're genuinely curious, and then you're looking for opportunities. I think, you know, when I think about— I know I'm at my best, like I've done a really good job when I take the advice I give to my kids, which is to ask 5 questions of any person that you meet. Like ask 5 questions before saying anything about yourself. If they ask you, then by all means answer, but try to be very, very deliberate and intentional about, you know, asking 5 questions. And I'll actually even when I'm doing this, because I know I have a propensity to, just shift gears and start giving advice. My wife says I'm prone to monologue. I mean, all these kind of things. So a game that I'll play is I'll like have my hand in my pocket and I'll like ask the first question. I'll press down like my thumb to my thigh and then like, you know, think just so I can keep track, like, am I actually doing it? So I'm not a jerk. Part of the reason that I want to do that is so I can control the conversation I get out of it because I'm— that's the introvert in me. But It's not good networking, and it's not just like being a normal, kind human being. So asking those, those questions and then trying to think along the way, not what can I get based on their answer, but what do I have to offer? Like, am I willing to go first? And I think if you approach networking from a go-first mindset, from a curious mindset, and from an I'm gonna go first mindset, I'm gonna buy the first drink, literally, you know, and/or figuratively, then you're going to be far more effective long-term because you're practicing relational networking, not transactional networking. I just— yeah, those are some things that you said that I thought were worth double-clicking on.

Do you have, um, do you have 5 questions in mind, or do you have a starter question in mind?

I mean, it's almost always if it's in a business context, so, you know, tell me about, tell me about your business. But, you know, when, when, when we were over there with, you know, Pat and Kaylee, with your, your friends You know, that we're over. He's in a totally different business and I was genuinely curious. And so it was like, how's that going right now? You know? And so asking like, I know stuff's a little weird. Is that good for you? Is that bad for you? And I think the important thing is I have no problem asking a quote unquote stupid question of somebody like that. I have no problem asking a question that would reveal my ignorance on—

You have to not have fear of being ignorant of things that you don't know anything about because it's totally okay. Expects you to be awesome at that, right? Correct.

And I think that's where a lot of times in networking what people are doing is they're trying to posture. Yeah. They're trying to, you know, maintain some kind of frame. They're trying to signal status over the person. And if what you are is just kind and curious throughout, but then at some point you are looking for like, I'm not trying to give somebody homework by asking them what they most need. I'm trying, if it's somebody that I genuinely want to expand my network, and I, and I think that this somebody's worth knowing, I see it as my job to come up with an opportunity for them.

100%. And that, that's huge, huge, huge, huge. I think that, that you should consider it your obligation to learn enough about the person to know what you might be able to do to help them, and then offer it. Or better yet, if you can, just do it right then and there. That's the text them to get them. Right? If you can, if you can think of something that you could do for them right there, then that's the time to do it. And, and I agree with you so much because I, I don't know, but if you, if you put me in a room with 5 consultants, you know, and a couple of psychologists, they'd tell you all kinds of things I need help with, right? You know, so find those out and then just help me, right? That's, that's the way to go. I, I think that's And it speaks volumes. And, um, our friend Steve Harward does an amazing job of that. Like, he's one of the better networkers I know, and he's not a shake-and-howdy guy either. He's very much, well, tell me about your bit, let me understand. And he will then go and just do it. He won't even ask you if he can do it. Just, it will come your way. And that might be, you know, he simply sends you something thoughtful because he knows you're into, you know, Uh, he said— I know he met with Richard Branson and, uh, uh, sent him a thing, uh, one of those little, uh, motorized things that sits half in and half out of the water that you ride on. It's not a surfboard, but it's not a jet ski. It's, you know, somewhere in between. And had, uh, the Virgin logo, uh, emblazoned on it, not Steve's company's logo, by the way. Um, and just gave it to him. And it's just, you know, like, of course That's a high-value relationship potentially to him. So I think it might have been $6,000 or $10,000 that it costs. But doing stuff like that, he would do the same thing with a, you know, with a connection, with just, you know, hey, I texted these 3 people together with you.

Yeah, he overheard me saying— maybe I was talking to you, you know, complaining that I'd like left my AirPods on an airplane or something like that, you know. And later that day, He's like, hey, had somebody on my team go out and grab these for you. You know, now that to do that to a total stranger or somebody that you didn't have any relationship, like buying gifts and things like that, maybe that could be like, ah, but it was just a very, very kind gesture. There was no ask in return. Not, not to me. It's just he— you're absolutely right.

With his logo?

It was not. It was like just in, in the normal box. Hey, I heard that you didn't have the— and heard you lost yours. Here you go, got you some new ones because I didn't want you to be on this, you know, trip without— I know you're crazy busy. Um, and so those— the best networkers are curious, and the best networkers see it as their responsibility to come up with an opport— with a mutually beneficial opportunity or unilaterally beneficial opportunity their way, and they ask for nothing in return.

Yeah, I remember, uh, the— so Strategically, I chose to join the mastermind that I joined to— that I met you in, and I joined that because I wanted to meet you and be in business with you. And it was a paid channel of access, so I was not impinging on you to get to know you. You had created a way to get to know you, which I think is another thing that I talk about a lot, like that paid channel of access. If it exists, take that. Don't take the other way.

Take the page, the awkward airport ambush.

Say again?

You know, the awkward airport ambush. You know, you're walking through and someone walks up, oh hey, I just saw you, this thing that was so great, can I take a selfie? Oh my God, by the way, can I tell you a little bit about my business? Like, I'm literally walking to my plane, right? This is not the time.

Or you get off the stage and, you know, I, and I, I certainly love people that come up with questions, but if you're coming up not with the clarifying question about something, you know, and you're just there to try to make that connection or get something, that's the worst time you can do it because you're trying to get to everybody and help them and you don't have time to go into the depth that you would need. Um, so I think that's like— that, that is really, really important. If there's a paid channel for access, then, then create it. And then when I went to the first meeting, I went with Number one, there was that the thing that you guys had, Wicked Smart. So I wanted to stand out strategically. So I was like, I got to win that. And I told my wife, I said, I got to win that Wicked Smart thing they've got. And she's like, okay, what are you going to do? I'm like, I have no freaking idea. Yeah. So I went, it's going to be great. I looked at notes from the event that was before where everybody was saying what their biggest challenges were. And I was like, I'm going to have to solve these. I'm going to try to come up with 3 things. And so I presented those 3 things. And then when I went to dinner with— and I am not a go-to, like, I would much rather have dinner awkwardly alone by myself in a room full of couples than I would to have to just go to dinner with people I don't know. So this was a, you know, a— this is a strategic stepping out. And you did this recently too, I know. And we both still do this because it is a strategic way to expand your network. And, um, and if you're, you know, if you're in, you might as well, you might as well be, you know, in. So, uh, I went out to dinner and it was 6 people, and one of them was, uh, was Lori, who had just been— had, uh, somebody that she had given money to for SEO services run off. And there were, uh, there were, uh, 2 other people there, and I was looking like just how can I help all those people at the table and did. And they are still people that I know and am in touch with from that meeting, which was at this point maybe 12 years ago. Right.

And longer than that, man, I got bad news for you.

Yeah, maybe 14, but about 15 years ago. Yeah, that's, that's, that's because it was sincere, honest. How can I help? And then I did. I took the action to help. And one of them, the one with her, was pretty significant. And then, as you know, I just started taking notes because I'm pretty good at taking notes. I'd take notes, um, of all the meetings and just send them out to everybody, and everybody then wanted them. And that was this thing that I did, that I did for myself to, to take the notes, but I shared them because I thought they would be helpful for other people. And then that became a thing, you know, he's the note guy, but he's also a guy that's giving, and his notes are way past what was talked about in the meeting. He's actually going out and doing more research. And like, so how can you, how can you add that value that way? I didn't ask any of those people, how can I help you? I had them, I had conversations. I said, tell me what's going on. Oh yeah, this is going on, but I'm kind of in trouble because of this. And then just helped them, right? Just made it, made it happen. And that to me is what I think, that's why you have a great network and why I have a great network, is that even though we're not ever at any of those things and may or may not go to them for 5 minutes and then leave. You know, that, that, that's— I think that's— and so that's why I wanted to have this episode, because I think a lot of people are like, I'm not a networker. And if you tell yourself the story of I'm not a networker, and that the result of that story you're telling yourself is that you don't know anybody and you don't have a larger network, then you're cheating yourself. And you should say, I'm not an active networker, or I'm not a transactional networker. But I, I do connect with people, I do help people, I am, uh, voraciously curious, you know, I want to know about people and I'm interested in their stories, then you can't help but be a networker. And then you can even call yourself an accidental networker. So that, that was the value I was hoping this conversation would lead to.

And I think that's exactly right. What we're really talking about is just Be curious, be kind, be willing to go first, and you're going to find whether you like it or not, you're a great networker. Um, because positive, helpful, kind, and kind people will always draw folks to them. And then here's the— say one thing and then we can wrap, because I know you got to bounce. The, um, once you have—

I got plenty of time to talk, so I want to—

okay, whatever value you got here. I got one more thing to say and then we— okay, yeah. Once you have your network, your network should never be for sale. And I think that this is so incredibly important. And I see people essentially put their network up for sale in two ways. One, when they're connecting and networking with other people, like, ooh, I think I might know somebody. What would that be worth to you? Ick. So never offer to transactionally give access to somebody else as an aspect of networking. That's not how networking works. Also, don't leverage people in your network without their knowledge to secure access to other people. Hey, if you can be at this thing, I can probably get so-and-so there. Look, I know them. Having been again on the receiving end of that, of people saying, oh, I thought you were going to be at this event. I thought you were going to be at this thing. So-and-so told me that you were going to be there. It's like, well, they asked me. I told them I couldn't, but they still acted as though I was going to be there. That is, that is, if you make it clear that knowing you is currency to that person, you will watch your network shrink. And the network that you have, they will talk amongst, uh, themselves, and you will lose credibility within that network so freaking fast. So just always in the state of giving.

Super, super smart and, and very important. And, and the other thing I would say is when you have high-value-to-other-people, um, connections in your network that, that a lot of people try to connect too. Um, I have people that want to get connected to you or, um, or Frank or Damon or, you know, other people that in our network. And if you just connect them, it cheapens the network. And also it can annoy the people that are in your network. So like, I know before I connect anybody to you or anybody else that, that I know is just trying to basically go through me to meet you because they know I know you I'm going to ask you first, hey, this is somebody that's got this deal and they want to do this, or they're looking to blah, blah, blah. You want me to connect you to them?

And to double opt-in intro, that's super important. Double opt-in the intro.

I like that. I like that as a, as a, as a term. And then the other thing is one thing that I feel like has really advanced my networking is that I have friends who are insanely good networkers. And so those people like you and I both know Mark Anthony, for example, Mark Anthony will— he knows everybody and he walks up and he's, he's shaking howdy, but in a classy way. I mean, like he's shaking howdy, meaning he'll go up and introduce himself to somebody and then they'll be connected. They'll like— he's just got an uncanny ability to connect on a deep level with lots of people, even in any situation. I, you know, I'll never forget him walking over to Sofia Vergara in a restaurant and being, you know, at least what sure did appear to be a welcome guest and not an annoying pest.

Right.

So that, that—

Dan Fleischman, Steve, Marcus Murphy. I mean, Dan Fleischman, Steve, Marcus Murphy. Yeah. When you get these, when you can connect with people who are naturally good networkers and they do it this way, oh my gosh, they're just gold. They're so great people to have in your life.

Yeah. So they'll, they'll bring 14 people over to you to have the more intimate one-on-one conversations that you're comfortable with. So think about that, like identify who are the super connectors in your areas that you're interested in networking in, and then find a way to get to know them and add value to them, because that will be the gift that keeps on giving forever and ever. So, um, that's awesome. Well, I've seen— now What do you think? Now, I know you were a little skeptical about this as an episode. What do you think?

Turns out we're phenomenal networkers. I'm changing my tune. We're great. Because to be a good networker is to be a good human.

Say it again.

To be a good networker, I think, is to be a good human with lots to offer. Right? And I think your networking is going to improve. Your ability to network is going to improve as your skills improve. And until then, I love what you said. Be willing to pay for that channel of access. If somebody else is aggregating a group of folks where there's an assumption of networking in place so that you're not going in the weirdo asking everybody what they do because it's like, you know, your partner's company's Christmas party or something like that. Like, be willing to pay for those channels of access because that's how you can expedite the networking process. But while you're there, ask lots of questions, be curious, and make it your job, your responsibility to figure out ways to help.

Awesome. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed this as much as we did. We really— I really think that everyone has the opportunity to be a good networker, even if you are an introverted personality, which both Ryan and I are. And hopefully you got some good takeaways. If you did, please share this with somebody else and help us expand the reach of the podcast. We're always trying to do that. If you have questions or more tips to offer us, because we certainly learn as much from you if not more than you learned from us, then please share that with us on socials. We're all there, forward slash Ryan Deiss and forward slash Roland Frasier, and on the Business Launch channels. And we'll see you guys next time.

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