The Ultimate Marketing Engine with John Jantsch

Here's a little bit from today's episode on Business Lunch.

The ultimate marketing engine is a successful customer. And I think that that's the point of view that we often lose, is that our job, really, if we want to simplify it, is to take take somebody who has a need from where they are to where they want to go.

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Hey, everybody, Roland Frazier here. Welcome to another episode of Business Lunch. And I'm really excited today to have the founder and author the of Duct Tape Marketing, John Jantz. John, welcome to the show.

Well, thanks for having me, Roman.

Yeah, Duct Tape Marketing is one of those books that to me, everybody should read. When people are asking, it's like, what, you know, what are your top five books? To me, I think that you did such a great job in that of capturing everything. So I'm really excited to have you here. And I think that if anybody that's listening or watching has not yet read that, you should go pick it up and check it out because it's a fantastic book.

Well, thank you.

So tell us. Well, let's, let's do this. Tell me a little bit about what you're doing right now and what you're excited about, and then let's talk about kind of how you got here.

Well, you bet. So I. Well, first off, I have new book just come out about six weeks ago, so I'm still kind of full in on that, called the Ultimate Marketing Engine, which is kind of a, you know, Duct Tape Marketing I wrote in 2007, actually updated in 2012. But as we all know, it's a very evergreen book because it's, you know, I don't necessarily Tell people they ought to be on Twitter or something. You know, it really is kind of the whole marketing system.

What is the new book?

It's called the Ultimate Marketing Engine.

Okay.

And it is a little more of higher level strategy book. I'm getting a lot of feedback from larger organizations that are saying, hey, you know, we don't have strategy. We thought we did. We've just got a team of tactics. So it's, it's been kind of fun to, you know, some of the places that has gone. I probably spend as much time as anything growing a network of independent marketing consultants, a little bit digital marketers, group of, I think you call them coaches. And I don't know if you know this or not, but I'm, I'm also going through the scalable program with.

I do know that. I love that. I appreciate it.

I'm excited about that. One of my daughters is actually running our company now and you know, a lot of, you know, the development I think for her and the structure for her, where we're trying to go growth wise I think is what we were interested in. Scalable and working with you guys.

That's awesome. So let's talk then about the marketing engine because what you mentioned is to me so critical and so often overlooked by people that are focused on what's.

The latest marketing hack and how do.

I game Facebook or how do I game TikTok or whatever as opposed to actual strategy. So tell us a little bit about the difference between as you see it, between tactics and strategy and the advantages of one over the other.

Yeah, well, it's, there's no wonder people are confused by the two terms. I mean Google the term marketing strategy and you will find 18 blog posts that are 15 tactics to as a marketing strategy. So no wonder, no wonder everybody's confused. But to me the, the, the essence of, of strategy is, is a lot of ways. It's your plan, it's where you want to go. And to me it starts with who do you bring value to? Who can you bring, you know, even more value to? Can you take. I start the book by saying, I think it's in paragraph two. The ultimate marketing engine is a successful customer. And I think that that's the point of view that we often lose. Is that our job really, if we want to simplify it is to take, take somebody who has a need from where they are to where they want to go. And I think a lot of marketers have a tendency to say I've got this thing to sell. Here's Somebody who said they'd buy it, you know, and that's marketing. And really what I present in the ultimate marketing engine is actually something I call the customer success track that we have to develop is to figure out where our customers are today, you know, what their challenges, what their characteristics are. I mean, that's selling, right? I mean you figure out those things and recognize them, but then figure out what are the milestones or the tasks that we need to accomplish to get them the result. And again, a lot of businesses are pretty good at doing that as well. But, but where I think a lot of businesses stop is how can we scale with that customer? So, so what's the next stage for them? Not, not what's the next thing we can sell them, what's the next level of maturity, for example, for them? And we've actually built, in my marketing business, we have five stages with our customers. And by, by building these stages and understanding what a business has to do to pass to the next stage, we can promise the rainbow. I mean we could promise like here's where we're going as opposed to here's how we're going to fix today's problem. Yes, we're going to fix today's problem. But when we do that means we're going to be able to do X. And then when we fix that set of problems, we're going to be able to do X. And I think it just, it actually becomes, first off, it's all the talk about being customer centric. It actually is customer centric and it kind of becomes the mission for the business. So that's, that's probably the biggest innovation, this book. And a lot of companies do it just because they, they see it's the right way to grow a business. But I'm trying to really bring to the world kind of a practical approach or, or application for being able to do that. And I know this Roland, but it is so much easier to sell more stuff to people you've already earned trust than it is to go out there and, and find a whole nother universe of people that, that are going to go through all the hoops of, of learning to trust you.

I've seen the studies that say that the, the existing customer is nine times more valuable than the prospective customer that you don't yet have.

Yeah, I mean, in some ways then it's then the job of the business. And I talk about this narrowing one of the steps in the books, narrow your focus to the top 20% of your customers because some percentage of them are Standing around going, when can I give you 10 times as much money because of the value I've gotten already? And an even smaller percentage of them are saying when, how can I give you 100 times more? And that as. And I know that I'm preaching to the choir here with that approach, but you know, that's so often overlooked. I mean, we're trying to go chase today's $5 instead of figuring out how to get 500.

Now do you talk about that, do you call that a value ladder or do you have a terminology for it?

You know, I do use the term value ladder in the book, but it's, you know, I know that's a really common, you know, phrase.

So how do you help, does the book, and if not, how do you help people figure out what that next level is like? Like, let's, let's. And if you do, maybe we could use an example that, that you might know of, of somebody that you've helped with that.

Yeah. So, you know, the really easy example is, is to take somebody, you know, who does professional services or you know, is an author. You know, it's a great example. I've helped a number of authors build courses, you know, for their programs, which I'm always kind of backwards. I build a, I build a program and get a result and then I write a book about it. But I know a lot of people write books and then they go, oh crap, I need to create something to monetize this book.

I like your way better. It's like I've actually done this. Let me share with you how I've done it. Instead of theoretically, I think I might do it like this.

And so, you know, that's an obviously logical step. And then, you know, you go some percentage of those thousand dollar course buyers going to want to have one on one time or going to want to have group time. And so you build the $10,000 program and some of them are going to excel in that program and they're going to only want to hang out with the other people that excel in that program. And you know, you've gone from $16 book to maybe $100,000 program.

Now.

Do you do consulting work with clients now?

So we have an agency that is, is. I, I hesitate to say this in case some of my clients are listening. We, we sort of view it sometimes as a laboratory. I mean, we, it's where we're trying things, it's where we're developing things. It's where we're creating training then for our network of, of consultants. So the, the, while the agency is, is a decent size, you know, business on its own, it's really a lot of ways a, a means to another end.

And so would there be any examples? Because I know you said you work with a lot of brick and mortar type because I think that they have a challenge with the value ladder because they're like, well, it's easy if you're sure, okay, great. You can do consulting and one on one and masterminds and all these other things if you're an info person. But I'm just, I'm selling tools. How do I create a value ladder there?

Yeah. So one great example is we started working with a dentist and I mean she's fabulous and was building, she actually worked in practice, then bought the work there for a long time, bought the owner out and then, then she's like, well, I got to make some changes. I'm a different person, I have a different thing. So we got her up to speed and kind of full bore going in her practice. But the problem with the dentist, a lot of cases is people, generally speaking, only drive so far to get their teeth cleaned. And the dentist in the next community, in the next community, in the next community that's, you know, they're not going to go pass by them necessarily. Right. And so one of the things that she was really passionate about was, and, and it's a fairly nascent part of the dental industry is the whole breathing and what, what an impact that having an incorrect bite or incorrect tongue tie or something really impacts your breathing and has a lot of other health issues and it's becoming more of a thing in the world of dentistry. And so she started writing about it, speaking about this teaching and next thing we knew we were able to help her develop courses and programs. But those courses and programs actually got people to drive and actually just a couple of her clients that fly in now to work with her. And it's no longer $129 to get my teeth clean, it's now I'm going to work with my dental consultant who is going to help my family's overall health. And so it's really changed her practice, but it's also changed, it's given her more revenue streams while also then enhancing her original revenue stream.

That's great. And part of that was it sounds like kind of a personal brand became the differentiating factor.

Right.

The expertise coupled with the personal brand. How important do you think personal brand is for the average entrepreneur these days?

It can be a game changer. In certain markets and industries. Because I always used to tell people that when duct tape marketing came out and it sold really well, I didn't have to be a good speaker anymore because people just assumed I was. Yeah, right. And they were willing to pay me four times what, you know, I'd been charging before. And so I think that, that, that's a good example of. Of why build a personal brand is it certainly helps differentiate you. Everybody else is saying, oh, we do this and this and this. That obviously helps attract. But people are willing to. And it's not always the right decision, but people are willing to pay a premium to work with somebody that they perceive as. As an expert.

Absolutely. So you mentioned you've got five stages in your company. Is that part of what the marketing engine booked?

Yeah, so. Yeah, so. So the ultimate marketing engine. You know, my goal in that was to show you, here are my five stages. If you are a marketer or if you are a business owner, you know, here's the roadmap for everything that we do. Milestones and everything. But my real goal is I think there are a lot of businesses, regardless of industry, that could start thinking this way. And it's like the value ladder, but in some ways it's much more of a customer centric approach to say, figure out who our best customers are and then let's create the roadmap for them. And what I've found in our business is it actually has us adding services and offerings and approaches and you know, that we needed to be able to offer to that more advanced that business that we had helped mature, you know, so it, it really, it really kind of almost by developing it for our clients, it developed in a lot of ways a roadmap for our agency and for the training we do to our agencies.

That's really cool. Would you mind sharing what the five stages are?

Yeah, sure. So they are. I probably have a piece of paper here that has. Because I can't remember them all off top of my head. But foundation, of course is the. Is the first one. And that's what we found is that so many people came to us just needing basic marketing foundation stuff. I mean, they came to us actually wanting leads and customers and we're like, well, there's a reason nobody visits your website or does anything. So we, that that foundation is basically getting their house in order. And the promise of that then is level up and now we can start generating leads effectively. I mean, we can, we can pour money into generating leads because we've got the foundation built that we now know will have some sort of conversion process. Then we go to the next level for us is after level up is organized because now we're getting some leads. And as you know, sometimes that can create other problems. And so now we want to get to where we are consistently converting those leads profitably. And so that's kind of like the first three stages. It's like build the house, start getting traction with leads, then start consistently converting. So now we're like, okay, this is predictable revenue. Now that we've figured out. And then typically the biggest thing we do in the four stages is this will be music to your ears. How can we create monthly recurring revenue? I don't care what business you're in, that's. That should necessarily be a goal. And then really the fifth step is that are we getting. A lot of times we sort of replace ourselves because I think any business that gets to that point, it's great to have a strategic advisor, but they need to have their own independent internal team at that point as well. So a lot of what we do in the fifth stage is help them build a team so that they ultimately can scale.

So that's probably the biggest challenge that I see with the people that I work with is in team building. Like, how do I find that person? I was actually had a call last night with a company that I have part ownership in and the founder is brilliant, but I said, you are going to break yourself because you've got. And he has employees but he doesn't have leadership. Like he was saying, the challenge is that nobody's going to do this thing unless I say, hey, we need to go do that. It's like, well, Steve said we need to do it, we need to do it. But nobody's coming to him saying, hey, why don't we do this? How do you help them get past that? Because that's a biggie for people. I know.

Yeah, that's. That. That's a huge one. I would say that, you know, part of the problem is especially the idea entrepreneur actually hates leading people. Actually wishes they didn't have to have people around. They want to sit there and like do their thing. And so I'd say one of two ways.

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Get somebody who does inside your organization because it's an extremely important thing or go to work on yourself to develop some self awareness to first off to, to realize that you're actually the problem in the business. And then you, especially if you've trained people, I mean that's the biggest challenge. Nobody comes to him and says we ought to do this because he trained them not to. Sorry if I'm giving too much tough love here.

But no, I think it's really great.

Because what we have to be able to do as business owners is when somebody comes to you and says should I do this? I don't know, what do you think?

Right.

I can't, I can't tell you how many times people sometimes will come they don't really want the answer. They want us to give them permission to have the answer. And, and boy does that we think that they, everything depends on us. They come to us so we have to have the answer. Some of the best things that have happened in my business over the years is when I said I don't have the answer. I don't know what do you think? And a lot of times they have a really good solution or a really good suggestion but they were, were sort of train not to lead with that. So get good at, get good at saying what do you think? What would you do?

So if you're looking to, to find that person that's going to be, that's going to replace you, how, what, what is the process that you found to be the best for that?

Well, I, I'm, I will not be called an expert at that answering that question by anyone. But, but I, there are a lot of, there are a lot of programs out there that teach you need this skill and you need to look for this and you need. But I swear self awareness is the biggest. If somebody, if somebody thinks they've got all the answers. If somebody thinks their way is the only way, it's just, it's probably not they're going to create the company they create. But I think that those, those people that, that realize where their blind spots are, those people that realize what, what their superpowers are and kind of really play to both of those ideas, I think they're going to ultimately find and surround themselves with, with the things they don't have.

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Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say is the best way? Obviously, we've got the original duct tape marketing. We've got the ultimate marketing engine. And which is. Was it just released, did you say? A few weeks ago?

About six, eight weeks ago, yeah.

So you're still in the recovery, kind of giving birth to this new thing.

So I'm still doing, you know, three, four podcasts a week talking about it.

But I love it.

It's all right. It's great. This is a period where you start getting feedback now, which is cool.

That is cool. So obviously they can buy that on Amazon and all the places books are sold, right?

Yeah. There's an audible version as well as Kindle and the analog version if you're of that ilk.

And then with what your daughter's doing and the other parts of your business, how would people who kind of want to go next level, what would they do? Where's the best place for them to.

Find, you know, the easiest thing is, I mean, if, if a lot of people will read the book and reach out and say, how can I do now duck type marketing. There is a. If you actually want to align with Us, we have a network of marketing consultants. We'll, you know, if you're in that business, you want to change your business model that you're in right now. We, you know, we have a, you know, full program. It's about 150 folks that are in it. And it's not just a training. I mean it's, you certainly get trained and certified and you're licensed to use all the materials. But it's really a collaboration as well. All those folks are working with, with small business owners. We are in the process of developing because the ultimate marketing engine. I kind of kid, I say it's a strategy book with a workshop tucked inside of it. And so we are actually creating a coaching program and a workshop program similar to people are probably familiar with eos where we'll walk into kind of a small mid sized company and really kind of help them develop this whole strategy framework based on the principles in the book.

Great.

And, and where's. How would they find out about that?

So, so the ultimate marketing engine.com is where you can find out everything related to the book. And then if you just want to really check out what, what I'm doing and have been doing the last couple decades, that's just duct tape. Marketing.com-u c t-t a p e marketing.com.

And your podcast too, right?

I do have a podcast by the same name. I started it in 2005 because I just thought it seemed like a cool thing to do.

Sixteen years. That's great.

Yeah, yeah. I've done several thousand interviews and you know, podcasts kind of was the next thing after blogs. And then, you know, they got going about 2005, 2006 and then a little thing called Twitter came along and all sudden podcasts were passe. But I don't know, when Apple put the podcast listening app on the iPhone natively, all of a sudden podcasts took off again. All the major media companies had to get into it. So, so they became cool again. So yeah. And really I tell people all the time I love doing the podcast. I mean it's become a revenue stream for us. But frankly I do it because I get to talk to great people. It's an awesome way to network. Frankly, it is the best.

That's awesome.

Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you taking the time to come on and I love the book. You guys should definitely check it out. It's the ultimate marketing engine. And at the dot coms and the podcasts, I appreciate you having here and look forward to staying in touch and seeing how things go.

Absolutely. Thanks Roland. You've been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Frasier. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information, go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

Hey, quick question. Do you know someone who's looking to grow as a leader? Maybe their team is growing a little faster than they expected, or maybe their new role requires them to work a little bit more through people. If the answer is yes, I want to recommend a new podcast by the scalable media network called Ready to Lead. It's hosted by Richard Lindner, one of Roland and Ryan's business partners, and Jeff Mask, who's one of the top executive coaches in the world. They cover tactical strategies on how to improve as a leader and also their biggest failures they've had throughout their career. You can find the show@readytolead.com or search for it wherever you listen to podcasts.

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