Using Data to Grow Your Business with Phillip Stutts, CEO of Win Big Media

On today's episode of Business Lunch.

And when they came to us, they said, man, we forexed our businesses, our business on the backs of the Great Recession. But then something happened in the last few years before COVID and they said, we can't figure it out. And I said, well, what are you running your marketing campaigns on? They said, discounts, everything discount, 15% off, 20% off, 30% off. Well, the economy had changed and people looked at discounts as cheap. And what worked in 2010 and 2011 wasn't working in 2018, 2019. And so when we looked at the data, that's what we found, that their customer base had discretionary income and they saw discounts as cheap. But they bundled a lot of their services and they were older, so they bundled like phone and cable and all that stuff because they were still buying that. And we said, why don't you say you're bundling things instead of discounting things? They also wanted green products. So we said, why don't you market your green products? This is a 35 year old company. And so we went around and just figured out all this stuff. They now this is what, when they came to us, they had spent $1.8 million in marketing over the previous year and a half and they had lost $2 million in market share because they were guessing. And we reversed it. We built an ad, a funny ad, but it incorporated all of these things, the case studies on my website, and ultimately we reversed that trend. And within five months of working through this five step system of ours, they had the greatest month in the history of their company.

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Hey everybody.

Welcome to an episode of Business Lunch.

This is Roland Frazier, your host and.

Today I am excited to have one of our War room members and a guy that's got a really unique perspective on business and and how to get business that that we've been working with and that I'm excited to share with you. His name is Philip Stutt and he is with Win Big Media.

Phil, tell us a little bit about.

Your company, kind of what it does and all that kind of stuff.

Well, my background is in running political campaigns. So I've been a part of 1433 election victories, including three presidential wins. And five years ago I had this business owner, he's a very large landowner out in Hawaii. And he comes to me and he says, I'm fascinated by politics and I'm fascinated by how you guys win elections. And if you market candidates the way you could market my business, if we could have explosive growth. And I think he had spent $50,000 on a marketing campaign to get people to buy into his subdivisions that he was building. And he had had one lead.

And so one lead, not one sale.

But one lead at hiring a marketing agency and $50,000 spent. And so I went, ooh, that would never happen in politics because we use a systematic formula to elect candidates and why don't we see if it works for businesses? And that really launched it. So like on 10% of the budget he had so about 5 grand, we ended up getting him over 700 leads and he converted many of those into the subdivision. I went, there's something there. And so then I decided to write a book about all the nefarious things I saw in digital marketing. And I wrote a book called Fire the seven Lies Digital Marketer Sell. And then I said, well, that's sort of my, you know, shot to the, to the corporate marketing world is, is, you know, like, look, I come from politics, so we like to go negative on people. So I decided I was going to go negative on the marketing industry from the get go.

What's your favorite of the lies of the.

Yeah, so my favorite of the lies is that you have to sign a long term contract with a marketing agency. So in 26 years of marketing, I've never had a contract not be anything but month to month. And every CEO I talked to in researching that book told me that they had at some point fired multiple marketing agencies in the lifestyle life cycle of their business. And one of the reasons why was because they had had to sign a 12 month, 6 month, 4 month contract with some agency who didn't perform and they were locked into the contract. And I went, that is insane. In politics that would never, as weird as it sounds, you think we wouldn't be the ethical ones, but we would be like, that's the crazy thing. Like that would never happen in politics. A politician has to win in order for us to succeed. And that's just the onus that's on us. And so I wrote this book and then people said, well, what's the formula that gets presidents elected, US senators elected? I worked with these businesses and I said, well, I need to go prove the model first. And so not only did we do it for this business, now we've done it for Fortune 200 companies, we've done it for startups and small businesses. And it's a five step formula that I ended up writing my next book, which is the undefeated marketing system. The subtitle is how to grow your business and build your audience using the secret formula that elects presidents. And it's not a textbook, it's all political war stories. But then how we translated that into growing businesses. And so I just said, you know, by the way, Roland, you probably have been in these shoes. I'm 47 now and at 40 I sort of had this midlife crisis and I could have cheated on my wife or bought a Harley and instead I just decided to start a totally new business in an industry I'd never worked in before. And that was sort of my midlife crisis. And I'm kind of glad I took that chance. But it's been really, really interesting so far.

What is so, so now you've got five steps. So obviously we're all wondering, what are those five steps?

So the first step, let me just start. I'm probably gonna spend the most time, I think it's the most important is step one. I cannot tell you how many times a business owner has come to me and said they've spent tons of money on marketing like I just said, and they produced no results and they fired some marketing agency. All that stuff, it's, it's just a broken record to me. And I always ask them like, well what, what did you know about your customer data before you built your brand? What is your customer or your client could be to B, two B to B, to C. What do they care about? What do they want to see out of you? Because in politics before I'm going to go spend a bunch of my candidates money, I have to make sure that we understand everything that the voter cares about. Let me give you an example. So when a politician sits down with me and says, hey, I want to run for office, I always ask her, helm, what do you want to, what do you want to run on? What are the issues? And they, you know, the egotistical politician will give me like 25 issues. And I'm like, oh, Jesus, no one wants to hear your 25 issues, but let's go and do a survey, a poll and do some data in the field to figure out what the voters care about to such an extent that they would vote for you if they knew you cared about.

It's kind of crazy, right, that like that they don't think to ask. And we as business people frequently don't either. It's just we sit in our kind of ivory towers and say, I believe that my customer wants this, and so that's what I'm going to sell them instead of just going out and saying, what do you all want to buy? Right.

This is so good. Yes. Because I love the politician, but I really am obsessed with the voter. Right. And so what I typically find is the voter only cares about two of the 25 things to such an extent that they would vote for an unknown or maybe even an unsavory candidate. Right. And from that point forward, it's in alignment. The politician already believes in that issue and the voter loves that issue. I'm not running on anything else. It's two things. That's it. So before I spend any money, the brand is going to be built around those two issues. And then once I want to spend money on marketing and the voter comes to the website or the brand, it's going to resonate with them. So that's in essence how we do it in politics. And so the way we do it in corporate and what we've done is we created. I was so obsessed, obsessed with the step one of understanding the customer or the client, that I went out and created a partnership with the largest data collection, analytics and AI company in America. And in our database, we have 240 million American consumers, 550 million connected devices, and we're tracking 10 billion online purchasing decisions every day in a trillion searches. And so I can tell you before you go spend money on marketing, I can tell you everything you've ever wanted to know about your customer. I can tell you their top three values in life. I can tell you the social media platforms they're on in a chronological order. I can tell you what they read specifically, what they watch on connected TV specifically. And, and my point is this, isn't that more important before you go spend a bunch of money to know all of these things, what is going to move them? In fact, let me give you an example. I'm sitting in an office chair right now. You can see it, or I guess Everybody's listening to this. This is a shark tank company, an office chair. And they came to us and they said, we would love to understand our customers better because we'd like to double. And they had all this VC investment in them, and we looked at them and we said, well, you're spending 95% of your dollars on Facebook right now, and Facebook is the fifth performing platform for where your customers, your website visitors, and your modeled or lookalike audience is going. It's the fifth performing platform, except you're spending 95% of your budget there. And so what I'm trying to do is play Moneyball with marketing. So the business always wins, and then obviously I get to win on the back end of that. And then that's really the focus of how we look at that. So the data is the most important thing. That's step one. I won't work with anybody that doesn't undergo a deep understanding of their customer or client because it's just not worth it to me. They're not serious to me. They're not committed.

And what's the most. What's the most dramatic, surprising difference between what somebody thought their market or their voter audience cared about versus what you found that they cared about?

So I'll give in. On the corporate side, we went in and we work with one of the largest title companies in the state of. They are a. They do a billion dollars deals a year. And they came to us and they said, we want to be number one. We want to be number one in our region one. And then we want to be number one in Florida eventually. And we go, okay. So we went in and they're. They're their customer. It's a B2B company. Their customer is the real estate agents. Right? Nobody buys a house and goes, man, let me go shopping around for title companies. Like it doesn't happen. Right? And so we overlaid online every real estate agent in their database, hundreds of thousands. And we found something really interesting. 61% of the real estate agents in the market, we were targeting owned dogs. Now you say, okay, what does that mean? Well, it. We said, we're going to market you guys with dogs everywhere. And they went, what? That is not why we're here. We're here because we're a title company. And I said, yep, we're going to change the messaging. So we ran, I think we built, we worked through these five steps. There's still a client. We're working with them now, but we started running campaigns. This is actually now in my Speech slides. Because I tell the story. But. But they. We ran these great. With all these dogs, and they are now the number one title company in the region of Florida. They're in. And the number three in the state of Florida. And no, they didn't get there because I ran ads on dogs. But what we did, that was part of it. And the owner of the business was like, the dogs are most effective ads we've ever run in the history of our company. Because every real estate agent comes into their office now and says, I saw your dog ads. I love those ads. It's about meaningful connections. And that's what everybody forgets. That why that's. We're marketing. It's not the transaction. It's meaningful connections that leads to a transaction. And that's what I'm obsessed with trying to find for every business we work with.

That's really cool.

And then what.

What comes next? So what's. What's step two?

Step two is where everybody screws up again. Almost every a business out there is running a marketing campaign based on tactics, The. The hot. The hot trends or whatever it is they want to do. It's. It's. It's what we find every time. Shouldn't you. Before you go and run a bunch of ads and build out your brand, you got to put a strategic plan together that aligns your vision as the business owner and what the customer wants. So, for example, we find this a lot. What if I told you, Roland, that 25% of your found. We love founder story. I love to tell my founder story. Everybody does. Well, what if I told you that only 25% of your founder story was effective to your customer base? Would you continue.

I believe it. Yeah.

Would you continue to sit there and talk about the 75% they don't care about, or would you be optimizing the 25% of your story? That blows people out of the water.

Right, of course.

And so that's why we put a strategic plan together. In addition, just like I told you on this chair company, you have to align your budget with where your customers are, not what you think they are or where you think they are. And feel goods. I don't mind the feel goods. I'm into data. Right. And the other is what's your timeline to get to the goals that you want to have. And you need to have an entire. You build a business. If you start a business, you put a business plan together. It's the same thing. You got to have a plan in place that, you know, points you in the direction you want to go. Step three for us is then now do the brand. Work on your brand. Now that you know what your customers don't want, now that you have a plan in place, you need to go build your brand. And I'm telling you, it's not step one to build your brand. I think that's the dumbest mistake people make. Hey, let's just go build a website. You gotta build it in a way that aligns with what your customers want. And so we then work with, to obviously work through that step. And then fourth step for us is AB testing. And look, every marketing agency says AB testing. The key difference in the way I look at it, again, a Moneyball approach is that we are looking at what the customer data is to derive the messages. And we're going to test that. We're not sitting around a conference room table brainstorming on messaging. We're looking at the data and then we come up with that. So let me give you a couple, I'll give you one on political example and I'll give you a corporate okay, hate him or love him, I'm not here to advocate one way or the other. But in the 2016 campaign, presidential campaign, one of the reasons that Donald Trump won was they in this testing phase or step four of the process, they would run one AD 162 different ways, 162 different versions of one ad. They'd have a green background, a red background, a woman in the ado man and the different font sizes, a font in the right corner, font in the left corner. And ultimately, ultimately they would find like eight or nine of those ads of the 162 blew through the roof. And they didn't know why, but they knew they weren't. And now they were ready to invest real dollars into what worked. Not not guesses. Right. And that is like the key to the whole thing. And then on the other end, we work with a protein powder company, they're an eight figure company. And in the data we found that 72% of their mark, 50% of their market, were vegan and vegetarian. 72% of the market hated soda. How the hell are you supposed to know that? But that's what we found. And so we said, hey, let's go run. So we ran 10 test ads for them on under their budget. The top two performing test ads we ran. Number two was the vegan vegetarian ad. Makes sense, 50% of their market. The number one was we ran an anti soda ad because we knew it wouldn't offend anybody. So we, we and all of my clients, we encourage our clients to run comparative ads. We call it comparitizing. It's comparative advertising. It draws distinctions. In a land where, you know, Forbes says we're seeing up to 10,000 ads a day online and offline, you got to break through the clutter. And in politics, you know, our ads, because we break through the clutter. You may not like them, but we break through the clutter. So how do I do that in a way that offends nobody? That's the whole key. Right. And so we ran this anti soda ad because we knew the customers already didn't like it and we knew it would build loyalty and distinction. And we came back. And if I'm just to compare that ad to the number two performing ad, which is the vegan vegetarian ad, we had a 2x click through rate, higher click through rate and a 20% higher conversion rate. And the reason that that's important is because we didn't just sit around a table and say, man, protein powders, let's talk protein powders. We said, oh, shit. We found this in the data. It's soda, it's vegan, vegetarian. Let's run test ads to see what works there. Yeah.

So how do you apply? And that was step four.

That was step four. And then step five is now that you know you've eliminated your risk every step of the way, now you're ready to launch your actual marketing campaign, which is step five.

Okay, so when you're looking at all that data, because you did this for us, and I want people to kind of think about is like, you've got now all of that information. How do you, or do you have a framework for moving that into the actionable things to do? Like, oh, a lot of our people like dogs. But you're like, yeah, well, so we need to do a campaign on that. But I think a lot of people would be like, okay, a lot of people are, you know, a lot of our customers like dogs.

How do you get from the entertaining.

And interesting, curious component side of things into the actionable? This is how we deploy ads with this data to turn them into money.

So I was criticized when I started my agency because I was told I needed to be niche. I needed to be all SEO or all YouTube or all Facebook or whatever, Right? And I had a hard problem with that because I'm going to follow where the data tells me to go. If the data. I have no dog in the hunt in any specific platform. I have the dog in the hunt in the data. Right. And if the data tells me I don't need to be on Facebook or my client doesn't need to be on Facebook, why would I ever tell them to spend money on Facebook? That, that the office chair company, they had a Facebook marketing agency, so they were never going to tell them that there was the fifth performing platform that they should be on. Right, right. So I just decided to build a model around being a one one stop shop. And we have people in our company that know how to run, you know how to build out creative based on the data. They've been trained on it. We have creatives that work with us, we have media buyers, we have everything in house. And then if we work, when we work with like Fortune, we actually white label a lot of marketing agencies under us that are very specific into the platforms that the data tells us to go to. And so we just surrounded ourselves with a lot of experts that know how to build that kind of stuff out. And then obviously I've never. All I've ever done is interpret data and build strategy for campaigns, whether it's politics or in corporate. And I tend to have a hand in almost every client we work in with. And obviously I'm in the 50,000 foot view, so I can come in and say, oh, you got to be much more creative. We got to blow it out this way. I'll give you another example. We did this. We did another comparison ad for an apparel company. They did, they were working in the NBA and the NHL. They had licensing agreements and they came to us and they said, they're kind of like a competitor Lululemon. And they said, hey, we want to, you know, you know. What does the data say? Well, the data said that their customers hated cheap athletic wear. They liked high end athletic wear, comfortable tees and sweats and things like that. And so I said, man, where can we pick a fight? Because I like picking fights. You know, again, let me be clear in a way that offends no one and builds loyalty to your. To your company.

Yeah.

And so we said, oh, how about the big box shoe companies? And so we created an ad that said, don't buy your clothes from a shoe company. And the tagline was just don't do it. Okay.

Nice.

Yeah. You're smiling, right? That. Did that offend your sensibilities, Roland?

No, I like it. I'm a big fan of.

No, I know. It doesn't offend anybody. It's funny, right?

Yeah.

It was the number one performing ad and it was the highest performing conversion ad in the history of their company. That ad amongst men, not women, men. Men knew that out of the water, the number one ad in the history of their company was something else we found in the data for women, which was they wanted third party validation before they bought anything. It took them almost nine views of an ad before they would buy. Where men bought within 4 views. Shocking. Women were more thoughtful than men. And so we ran a authentic third party review ad campaign just to women, you know, with real reviews. And that was the highest performing ad that they had ever run in the history of their company. So we did different things for different audiences. You know, like when we looked at your, we looked at various markets for target markets for you. Every one of them, like think different things. You can't just have a macro campaign and think that that's the way to be effective in today's market.

So I'm sure a lot of people that are watching or listening are thinking, well, this is cool if you're Nike, but my company does 500,000 a year or 5 million a year. What's the, what is the ideal size for somebody to be when they start getting into this?

Okay, so with the, let's start. You don't like for me, I say anybody can use the data and then they can do what they want. They can hire an agency like me or someone else and say, here's the data, go work with it. Right? And if your marketing agency says, nah, we don't need that, that's a tell, by the way. But my thing is with the data. So we were working with our data partner for Fortune 200 company companies and we, we, they were, you know, we were charging six figures for a data analysis for these companies because they're looking at segments like 20 to 22 year olds that make certain amount of money that are college educated or high school educated. Like there's just a thousand different segments they wanted to look at. That's what the Fortune 200 companies do, right? And I went to the data partner and I said, everybody needs this and they don't. They can't afford to pay 100, $200,000 for it. And they said, okay, you pay us a half a million dollar licensing fee every year and you can charge what you want. So we charge 7,500 bucks to 10,000 bucks based on how many segments you want to look at. If you're, if you're doing a half a million dollars or $5 million a year, that's a small price to pay to get it right on the front end and not pay the dumb tax. Sure. Work with a national pest control company.

Hey, business hunch listeners, we're going to get right back to the show, but Roland wanted me to invite you to a brand new training that he's doing on acquiring businesses with no money out of pocket. It's something that he's talked quite a bit about on the show, but he's doing a free training where he's going to walk through the entire process. So if you want to get access to that, go to businesslunchpodcast.com epic that's businesslunchpodcast.com epic and you can get signed up.

And when they came to us, they said, man, we forexed our businesses, our business on the backs of the great recession. But then something happened in the last few years, this is before COVID And they said, we can't figure it out. And I said, well, what are you running your marketing campaigns on? And they said, discounts. Everything's discount. 15% off, 20% off, 30% off. Well, the economy had changed and people looked at discounts as cheap. And what worked in 2010 and 2011 wasn't working in 2018, 2019. And so when we looked at the data, that's what we found, that their customer base had discretionary income and they saw discounts as cheap. But they bundled a lot of their services and they were older, so they bundled like phone and cable and all that stuff because they were still buying that. And we said, why don't you say you're bundling things instead of discounting things. They also wanted green products. So we said, why don't you market your green products? This is a 35 year old company. And so we went around and just figured out all this stuff. They now this is what, when they came to us, they had spent $1.8 million in marketing over the previous year and a half and they had lost $2 million in market share because they were guessing. And we reversed it. We built an ad, a funny ad, but it incorporated all of these things, the case studies on my website. And ultimately we reversed that trend. And within five months of working through this five step system of ours, they had the greatest month in the history of their company. And it's not about me. It's that all we do is eliminate risk and try to use data in every decision we make. Whether it's the messaging, whether it's the targeting or whether it's the budgeting.

Yeah, that's just so smart. Hey guys.

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To learn more.

Again, the number is 805-8263. 2, 7, 4.

Thanks.

One more question and then I'd like for you to commit share how people might be able to find out more and that kind of stuff. What is the impact of all of the privacy movement on the ability to have data that is like this that you can use? Because you've got GDPR and you've got California's privacy stuff. You've got iOS 1415 saying we're not, you know, we're standing as advocates for private. You can use anonymous emails and, and Facebook and all of these guys. The death of the third party cookie. With Google, there's, there's a very, very strong bias against having information out there. How are you dealing with that and how will that likely affect us going forward?

Yeah, it hadn't affected, but it could in the future. But we're already working on workarounds for almost every single platform of privacy there is. Where this, the interesting thing, here's where I've seen it.

But you have more aggregated than individual data, right?

So, yeah, and modeled audiences and everything. And then we can overlay people online. And yes, we're still tracking, you know, customer lists or client lists online or website. You know, we put a pixel on a website, we can grab those people and then we can match it up against our database to build out a model profile. Right. But where we've seen the most is actually in Facebook. I have seen a massive drop in Facebook conversions, not people. People are still on Facebook, but we are seeing a massive drop in people buying things on Facebook. And there's a few reasons why. There's the iOS update, of course, but after the 2020 election, there were a lot of cancellations. People are getting canceled for saying anything. Then the COVID stuff happened, everything. People don't feel safe going on Facebook and giving their data away anymore. They just don't feel safe. It has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with the environment. Right. It's a cult. And one of the platforms, I would do this in my podcast. We have a marketing tip of the week every week. So I've done this in the past on mine, but I'll give it for your audience. One of the platforms that we have seen massively grow in the last 12 months is Pinterest. Have you heard any news out of Pinterest on data breaches or people feeling like they've been canceled? Like nothing. 0.0. Now, it is a predominantly female platform, but I will tell you that it is blowing through our data everywhere. We're seeing it right now. So if you're going to target women, I would say without looking at people's data, I wouldn't recommend, you know, I'd recommend you got to look at your own data and see what you got. But Pinterest has been a platform that we've seen an incredible shift in customers, especially female customers lately.

Yeah, they're super innovative too. They, they, you know, from shopping the picture to data to the lenses, all the things that they've come out with, I think they're, they're ahead of the curve and very often overlooked as a, as a channel. That's, I think that's really cool. So for people that want to find out more, want to read your book, want to know how to get to the podcast or otherwise work with you, what, what are the best ways to reach out and what resources do you have for them?

Yeah, it's just go to philipstut.com I'm sure you'll spell it correctly in the show.

Note I'm going to let you spell it out here because we just want to be sure because there's, there's a few, few ways, few L's and P's that might get in there that we don't want.

Yeah, it's P H I L L I P. And then the last name is Stutz. S as in Sam T U T T S as in sam.stutz.com. it's just my name and there you can sign up. We actually have a free data assessment. So if you're actually interested in seeing what your data would look like within our system, we'll do a 30 minute call with you for free to review that. We also, I have, yeah. My book is the undefeated marketing system. How to grow your business and build your audience using the secret formula that elects presidents.

And is that on Amazon as well?

It's everywhere.

Yep.

And then what about the podcast?

And the podcast is the Undefeated Marketing Podcast. Nice. And we've had Jay Abraham, James Altucher, Peter Diamandis on and we all lend free ideas on marketing that people can take and don't have to spend any money and can implement their own business.

That's awesome. Well, thank you for being here today. I really appreciate it and oh man, what an honor.

Appreciate you.

I'm going to have to get, after we get off here, talk about how do we get some actions going on the data that we've done so we can be in the right places too. So appreciate you taking the time to be here and thanks everybody for listening. If you like the show Please feel free to review us and leave. 5 stars. Definitely subscribe so you don't miss anything and we'll see you next time.

Foreign.

You'Ve been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information, go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

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