Why Harvard Research Says You're Probably Not Spending Your Money Right

And again, that gets into what we talked about before of the pursuit is the experience, right? So knowing what you're doing is it that you're always trying to find the best possible deal and anything less than the best is going to be a disappointment. If you know that's where you are, then don't buy it.

How much more successful would you be if you had lunch once a week with insanely successful entrepreneurs who share their biggest secrets on how they think and achieve success? Grab your seat at the table because this is Business Lunch with Roland Fraser and Ryan Deiss.

Foreign.

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Hey everybody. Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss here with Business Lunch. Wonderful to see you today, Ryan. What's happening?

I'm about to go kick it, head down to the beach with the family. I feel like I'm, you know, I know last time we Talked about my 30 day vacation and learnings from that. I'm enjoying it so much that, you know what, I'm doing it again. Not 30 days, but, but no, I'm headed down there. What about you?

I'm like, hey man, you know, I don't want to be a bad partner or anything but, but I'm, I'm basically.

In vacation mode moving forward. Yeah.

Is that okay?

No, it'll just, just a quick trip some, you know, let the kiddos run, run around, get some energy out. No. What about you? You got anything fun going on?

Yeah, we're, we're doing the same, same ish thing. We're hanging at, at our house. But our kids are coming over and we're doing something very unique on fourth of July. We're doing like burgers and hot dogs.

That's crazy talk.

Yeah, I think it's going to be a trend. It's going to take off. You watch and you look and see in the future if it doesn't become a thing you hear a lot about.

You're about as patriotic as it gets.

Cutting edge. I'm doing this for America.

Yeah, you're welcome. Hey, you're welcome, world.

I had something that I came across, so I've got it pulled up here and it's an article that was in. I guess it's a Harvard University article. I don't know where it was published, but it's on the Harvard site. But it says if money doesn't make you happy, then you probably aren't spending it. Right. And it goes in and talks about. And I'm going to read the little abstract before I get to the things that it suggests. And I kind of want to get your take on this. So it says the relationship between money and happiness is surprisingly weak, which may stem in part from the way that people spend it. Drawing on empirical research, we propose eight principles designed to help consumers get more happiness for the money. And then they go in and they have all this research. It's actually quite interesting and we'll post the link in the show notes, but I'd kind of like to get your take on that is that that money can empirically, scientifically been. It has been proved to be able to have a slight positive link with happiness. A lot of that is around when you get into the article around that people who have money have better access to healthcare, they can eat better foods, they can take vacations, which is good for your mental health, and they have access to professionals and things like that. But I'd just like to get your general take on what do you think about the link between money and happiness?

I guess to me, and I don't know if this makes me shallow, but to me it seems obvious that money would definitely aid in happiness. I mean, at a bare minimum, right? It's hard to be happy if you're in just constant survival mode, right? I mean, if you're always like, I mean, I don't know, is a. Is a gazelle in the Serengeti happy? I mean, maybe. I mean, they're kind of hopping around in a gazelle, like fashion, but every now and then a lion comes up and chases them down and eats them, right? Or their buddy, you know, they're like, oh, man, how's your day? It's like, good for me. Frank got eaten. I'm like, oh, man. Sucks for Frank, right? Like, I think that if you don't have money and because that is the thing that we exchange for basic living essentials, right? Then I think it's hard to have a certain level of happiness. But once you get beyond subsistence, I can see how there's diminishing returns. Right. So I guess that makes sense. Like, so, you know, and what is that point? I don't know. You know, is there a material difference between making, you know, 60, $75,000 a year and making 100, 125,000 a year? Maybe not. Probably not.

Remember, we did. I think we talked about on a couple shows back that there was a study that Schwab did, and it was how much do you need net worth to be comfortable? And the number was 700,000 in the United States, and how much do you need to be wealthy? Which was 2.2 million. So to me, that's kind of an interesting thing to layer over what you're talking about now. Go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, so I think there's that. Right. And so a lot of it's going to come from what are we defining as happiness? But I do think I am surprised that they would say that money only makes a small difference in happiness. When you think, think about if I'm going to be like, what does it take? What makes me happy? So many of the things that make me happy do just require money, right? And that can sound really, really shallow. But, I mean, some of those things are having really fun, awesome experiences with my kids. And some people could say, oh, but you could do that by, you know, just going down and camping out by the river. And you know what? Look, I did that as a kid, and I hated it because there were mosquitoes and it was hot and I was sweating. So, no, like, what makes me happy with my family is to go someplace nice where there's air conditioning, and that just costs more than camping in a tent down by the river. And I've done both, right? And look, somebody else could disagree and be like, I'm all about camping down by the river. I'm not saying mine's better. I'm just saying for me, the stuff. And I felt this way when I was poor. I still was like, this kind of sucks. So I think that there are some things that I know that make me happy, that they just cost more. But also, let's set me and my. My personal what do I want? And let's even set aside what I want for my inner circle, like my. My friends and being able to take them to do nice things from a broader impact perspective. Right? A dent that you want to make on the universe. It is hard to do that without money. I guess Mother Teresa did it, but she still raised money. So I think anything that you want to do is going to require some kind of money.

Yeah, and I think that's a good example. She did not do that without money. Money, to me, gives you the freedom to be able to do the things that you want, whether it's helping other people or having experiences or acquiring things or whatever those things are that give you and the people around you pleasure. It is truly about freedom. And I think that if you obsess over it, which I've seen lots of people do, then you can be very unhappy. And I've seen people who have tons of money still obsessing about it and being unhappy and people who don't have it the same. And so what I've developed that I like that is probably horrible financial advice, is I feel like it's good to have a healthy disrespect for money. I don't have a great deal of respect for money. I like it for what it can do for me, but I don't look at it as like it's going to. I'm like, man, if that works out, cool. If it doesn't, that's fine. I've had money. I've not had money. It's gonna all be fine. I know that I've been in, you know, been through that, and I think that, that there's some power in that. The thesis of this article, though, which I do agree with, and it's interesting that you said, you know, it's like, well, I don't see why there's not a stronger connection. It's because they, they, their position is that people aren't spending it in the ways that are most likely to help them truly appreciate what it can do for them. And then they come up with these eight things. And it's really cool because you mentioned the first one, and it's absolutely. What I preach all day long, is that money allows you to get experiences. And so it's the experiences in life is all we really get. The things, you know, how many people have way too many things. You know, there's a whole movement from the book on the. Was it the magical power of tidying up or something like that? Like that. That's a thing that we get too many.

Marie Kondo. Yeah, the, like the magical power of tidying. So just so I'm clear, they basically said that the mere acquisition of things, which is what most of us spend money on, is not what makes you happy. I'll buy that. I mean, there's Been tons of stuff that I thought I wanted to collect. And I was like, this ain't it.

Let's look at the first of the eight. It says, buy more experiences and fewer material goods. Right. And they go into it and they say, you know, the thing is, is that like, it's not much different. You can have a rich person that has. And they use this example in here. You have a rich person that has this giant wine cellar and they're getting no more pleasure out of it than the person who has six bottles. And it's probably no better because they haven't focused like, they focus. They're like, I've got money now, I need to spend money on wine. Go get me wine. But they don't have any enjoyment of the process of doing it. They haven't researched it. They don't know that much more about wine than the other person. And therefore all they have is more wine. They haven't gotten anything out of it.

They probably don't drink it either, which is an aspect of the experience. Right. They just collect it. It's a thing they bought and it's literally on a wall. But it's intended to be experiential and to drink it.

Yeah. And then not knowing, like for you and for me, we want to find out what's the story behind the wine. And then we want to go to the place where the wine is and see the dirt. And then we want to see the people that are making it. And then we want to talk to the people that are making it about how is it different and what do they like and what's special about that. And then we want to know the story behind that that gives us great enjoyment. All the wine that you've got or I've got, and we've both got decent sellers. Right. Is not at all the fun thing. The fun thing is all of the stuff we just talked about. Plus, like last night when you have a couple of friends come over saying, I've picked out this and this, and here's why I picked this, and here's the story behind this and this is cool. And then you're having the social of actually consuming the thing that you've got, and the actual joy in that is not the collecting, it's the consuming, which is kind of cool. All of which is experiential, Right?

Yep. So what were the other can like?

I just love.

Can you just kind of rattle off the other seven real quick? Because I'm. I'm curious.

Yeah. So use their money to benefit Others rather than themselves. So do we get more out of giving than we do out of taking. Three was buy small pleasures rather than fewer large ones, which. That one I take a little bit of issue with. I understand what they're saying. Four, few extended warranties and other forms of overpriced insurance. And I read that one because I was like, okay, well, that I know. Like, I don't ever buy that stuff because it's just a bad deal. But what it does, and the psychology behind it is interesting. And then 5 was delay consumption.

Is it because you almost are hoping that it breaks so that you spent it?

Well, no, it's that we don't miss most of the things that don't work out. So, like the cost of two things. One is we don't miss or we aren't harmed as much as we think we might be. We tend to overthink the loss that's going to happen if that thing doesn't work.

Catastrophize it.

Yeah. And. Ooh, I like that word. And then if we know that it can be replaced, we don't enjoy it or treasure it as much. I thought that was really interesting. And they go into all the science behind it, but it's like. That's kind of interesting. So, like, if I've got. If I've got an iPhone and I've got that insurance on it, I'm not worried about it. So I'm not ever. I'm not thinking maybe I should be careful and maybe I should put a case on it, which I don't because I like the design that Jobs had originally.

I 100% agree. 100%.

Yeah, but. Right. So I thought that was interesting that if you've got it covered, if you're protected, then you don't enjoy the thing as much. And so Maybe you spent $10,000 on this piece of jewelry, but you've got the insurance and subconsciously or consciously, you actually don't appreciate it as much because you're like, it's fungible. If it gets lost, I can get another one. I thought that was kind of interesting.

That is key. What was number five?

The fifth one was delay consumption. So what do you think that's about?

I mean, I think delayed consumption. I think the most fun I've ever had was planning a purchase.

You're exactly right.

Yeah. So I think that's a big. A big part of it, the anticipation.

And going through the research, like the trip that you just took or the trip that we're looking at taking to France. Together, right? It's you get excited as you plan and you get right and then you're like, okay, I'm researching the airfare and this is, to me, it's really fun. Like, I like the game too, of how do I get 100% value for half the cost? So I was really, really surprised, and I will say shocked by the increase in the cost of travel since even a year ago. It's like. And so shocked.

Would you say shocked and appalled? Shocked and appalled.

Yes, shocked and appalled. Because it's like, so I bought the tickets for that trip we talked about last time we went to the UK for a whole month. But I bought those tickets in like May of 2020 and didn't travel there for, because it was closed and shut down and everything else. But so I didn't travel there until January of 22. So I bought those tickets. They were two first class round trip tickets for about a fourth of what they normally cost because everybody, including the airlines, was panicked. So now my context is what those cost and I haven't bought overseas tickets since then. Now we're going back in a couple of months and I'm looking at it and the prices are at least double what I would normally expect to pay. And I got to pay two tickets and I'm looking at that going, man, I mean, it caused me, the first time I looked at it, to not do it. I mean, like I went through it, put it in the cart and I was like, dad, God, that's a lot of money. Maybe I can find something else. So I, then I go on and, and two days ago when I texted you, I was like, okay, we got our tickets. They were half price. One set of tickets for two people at half price. Everything else was literally double that. And it's like, so the, the pleasure I got of planning that and then having the win of saving that money is going to be one of the big things that I enjoy about getting ready to take that trip, right? And it's the same thing making purchases when you research and you're checking everything out and you know, everything there is to know. And we just bought a cold plunge and I'm talking to all my friends that have bought cold plunges and they're like, oh yeah, I did this and they're sending me all the research and I'm, you know, and then when I pulled the trigger yesterday, I was like, well that's okay, that's going to come now, right? But it was fun getting all of that and you know, I'll Enjoy having it. But. But I think it is really an interesting psychological thing that we really enjoy the whole planning of something more than we do the actual consumption. Yeah.

It's why I don't necessarily buy into the distinction between, I heard it a lot like, don't buy things by experience. That to me is an oversimplification because if you're buying things that you care about and that do, to use a Marie Kondo phrase, bring you joy. Right. Then you can buy plenty of things. And the thing is the experience, both the investigation purchase process, the using it and enjoying it and sharing it after you have bought it. So I'm actually a huge fan of things as long as they're the right things. I remember, I'll say the worst money I've ever spent. The worst money I've ever spent was when I spent money to impress people I didn't know and didn't like. Yeah, right. And I remember when I first, when I first made, you know, started making good money, it was like, I guess I should go buy watches.

Right?

That's what people were doing. That's one of the areas where you spend much. And I know you're a big watch guy, like, your watch collection is amazing. I don't know, like how many paddocks and all kinds of things you're up to at this point. But me, I'm not, I'm really not. And I know that because I have gone and acquired lots of watches over the years and I still wind up wearing my Apple watch all the time. Right now that may change down the road. That could very well change. But for right now, I look at, and you and I were even having a conversation like, I don't like selling things. Maybe I should just sell these things because they're just sitting in boxes and it's like 100 plus thousand dollars worth of watches. At least right now even more, they're sitting in boxes, I never wear them and I didn't buy them for the right reasons. So that's the piece where the experience and the thing is important. And I think the way that you find out, kind of picking up on what we just talked about, the way you find out is it something you actually want is by delaying the purchase. Because if you decide I'm going to wait 30 days to buy this thing and you're wanting it, you're craving, you're enjoying the process leading up to it, then it probably is a thing worth buying. But if, if you're only thinking about doing it because you saw somebody else had it. And you just got that I should have that too kind of thing. It's not only going to be an utter waste of money that makes you unhappy, it's going to stare at you from a shelf every time you walk in and make you feel like an idiot for purchasing it. Ask me how I know. Anyway, what's number six?

Well, let's take a break for our sponsor and then we'll. We'll come back and talk about the other things. We'll be back in just a minute.

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Okay, so we're back and we're talking about these things. I did want to point out when you were saying, like, you know, Well, I enjoyed the thing earlier as a part, you know, kind of saying. Well, the saying it's experiences over things is a little bit oversimplified. All of the things that you talked about were experiential related to the thing. So having the thing was. It wasn't that you had the thing like tick off on my box if I've got whatever that thing is. It was all of the planning process, people, social consumption, all of those things were the thing. And so they talk about in some of the tests that they did, they said, would you rather have a car or would you rather plan a trip in your car to go with your family to someplace that you really go? And so they consider some of these things hybrids. Because the thing is, the. Is obviously essential to the experience. So it's not like just.

But can anybody name a thing that isn't like what thing doesn't have an experience? That's why, again, to me, it's like.

And what, your watches?

Yeah. Okay.

A lot of people like, like, I mean, I've got things that I believe in the future I will get to. That's why I keep buying bass guitars. I have them and they're very nice. They give me no pleasure, except when somebody that plays bass guitar comes over and I get to pull it out and say, I've got some really cool bass guitars. I'd love to hear you play that. Right. You know, here, I can play this. I can play Smoke on the Water because it's super simple, you know, but you can, you know, you're an artist. I appreciate the artistry of the thing, but it stays in, literally in a closet over there with 30 other guitars. And someday I'm planning on getting to it. So, like, I have that thing. You have those watches. They actually are a negative trigger for you because it reminds you when you think of them that I bought those for the wrong reason. I don't really like them that much. So I think a lot of people just accumulate things. And you even said it like a minute ago that you get all of these people who. Who acquire things that. All these people who acquire things that do it for the wrong reason because they saw it on Instagram or they feel like if you're. If you made it, you've got to have that. So I need to have this kind of car to impress. We have. We see lots of people in our industry that are sprawled across Lambos that they bought because that's what's going to prove to the world that they've made it or that they're valid or they have something to say that's of value. So I think that's the thing. Does that make sense?

Totally. Yeah, I think that's exactly it. So recap real quick because I've forgotten. 1, 2, 3, 4. And tell me the other ones.

Okay. One, was buy more experiences and fewer material goods. Two, and now keeping in mind that those hybrid things, that is a material thing that brings an experience, more experience.

Experiences and experiential things is maybe a way I would reword that.

I like them. I like that. Yeah. Two, use the money to benefit others rather than themselves, which we didn't really talk about other than they've done research after research after research that you're going to get more dopamine out of doing something or giving a thing to somebody else or helping somebody else out than you are yourself. I think that generally bears true across all the things I've done.

The most fun I've ever had most fun I've ever had was buying, you know, my dad was big into Mustangs and going and shopping for that 50th anniversary Mustang. One of the most fun I've ever had. Yeah. So I mean, there's. And even smaller things, right. Being able to really help somebody out, do something anonymous, is kind of fun to watch somebody across the way. We were, we were in a. In this little cafe in somewhere in Scotland and there was this table of ladies who were really, really having a bad time and they only had cash and this place only, you know, took credit card. And I was like, one, I wanted them to get up and leave because they were frankly cranky. But I just went to the person, I was like, I got their tab. And they're like, you don't want to do this. And it was, it wasn't that much. Right. And I said, yep, nope, I got it. Don't tell them it was me. And you instantly saw their entire demeanor change when they heard, you know what, man, we've got it taken care of. We're just going to take care. And it was great. And so that felt really good. And I did that for me, by the way, not for them. I acknowledge, I think that's. We should acknowledge that when we're giving. So that's number two. You got anything else?

Yeah, it's truly win win. Right? You get to do that thing for other people. I frequently leave $100 tip. Right. For something that costs 20, $30. Or if I just go in and buy a, you know, a tea and I'm having a meeting or something, and I'll leave them 50 or $100, even though the bill was 10. You know, it's, it's. It just feels good to do that. And it feels good because you know that it's going to help the other people to feel good. And I get way, way more out of that. The other side of that that I wanted to mention, though is, is. And I've been guilty of this is you have to let other people do things for you. So, like, for years, people would be like, well, what can I do for you? And I'm good. I don't need anything. I'm good. You know, and. And then somebody told me, they're like, you know, really, it's not cool that you say that, because I get it. But I want to do something for you. I want to do this or I want to pick up the check this time or whatever. And I'd be like, no, no, no. You know, it. You do have to balance allowing other people remember the joy you get in doing things for other people and allow them to have that joy from you. So it's good to have off the top of your head a couple of things that are not giant or anything, but that people could do for you that they would feel good about too.

Yeah. One of the values, one of the things that we have in founders board is be humble enough to offer help and be humble enough to receive help. And both of them require a degree of humility. Right? And it's very different. And the people who are like, oh, no, I got it. Oh, no, don't worry about me. Very often that, that's, that's ego. It's coming from a point of ego. It's, I'm so good. I don't need your help. Who are you to help me? And, and to lay yourself barren to allow yourself to be helped is not only good for your soul, but I mean, you're. You're really blessing somebody else for giving them an opportunity that for you.

So, yeah, my, My wife's therapist told her that she, she said you. This. One of her assignments was this week. And then going forward, but especially this week, you need to let Roland do things for you. Because she's like, she's aware. She's at conscious and confidence. Right? She's like, if. I'll say she's sitting down and I'm sitting down, and I'm like, would you like a. Would you want me to refill your tea for you? And she's like, no, I'm good. It'll be empty. And I know she wants to have the tea refilled, but for some reason she doesn't want me to have to get up and go do that. And I'm like, that gives me pleasure to get up and go get you the tea. Much more pleasure than continuing to sit here and you having no tea and me not getting to do anything for you. So, so it's like even simple things, letting people do those things for you is important. The, the next thing was, which I don't really agree with, it says buy many small pleasures rather than fewer large ones. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think the many small ones is these like little dopamine hits. It's like, I mean that's like basically saying, you know, instead of going out to a really nice meal, just eat Pringles all the time. So I don't know, look, it's Harvard. I'm sure they got data to back it, but it doesn't. That's one that. I agree with you. It doesn't ring true with my experience. And maybe what they're saying is basically pursue life's little luxuries like there's as much enjoyment to be had from a really nice pair of socks as there is for overspending on a car. And that's probably true.

I think the challenge, it seems overly simplistic and it's phrased as either or. So I think that the theory or science behind it is don't continually deny yourself things waiting for that one big thing. Like we're saving for a house, for example. So we're cutting back on everything. We're living very austerely, we're having ramen every night. We're not doing anything for ourselves, but we're going to have that house someday. But maybe you're not and maybe you get hit by a bus tomorrow. And so I think they're saying if it's a choice between the two have several small things. My position and I think yours is have. It's never a choice between the two and you can actually have it all. All you have to do is bucket it, right? Live, live with buckets, have a bucket for fun, immediate stuff, so that you actually do get to treat yourself, because I think that is very important. We are very reward driven creatures and there's a good chance that we will live a few more years and want to have that house that we're saving for or that car or whatever the thing is, or the, you know, send the kids to college, which then Gives us gift giving as well. But, but if you're only focused on the one or two big things and it's denying yourself pleasure throughout that time, I, I get it there. But just generally it's. I've always been the person that would rather have one nice suit than five kind of so. So ones. Right. I, I get more out of quality than quantity and I think that's probably what is in that kind of what you hear is it's, it's kind of a quantity quality thing in what they're saying.

Yeah, I mean I guess that's kind of my thing is I don't understand the prescriptive nature. I don't know what I'm supposed to do with it like because at some point. Yeah, look, both have to. And so the answer is it's a balance and so be intentional with it. So I don't get that one because I don't know what I'm supposed to do with it because obviously both extremes are bad. So yeah, we can move on.

And then the other, the four was excu. Extended warranties and other forms of overpriced insurance. I mean on the surface level that's just good financial sense. That, that almost never makes sense.

There's a reason they sell that to you and it's because the economics are in their favor. I mean it's one thing to go to a casino and to know that the odds are stacked against you, but it's fun. You're just having fun with friends because you like blackjack.

Or craps. Or craps.

Especially slot machines. Exactly. But then there's at least an entertainment. There's nothing particularly entertaining about an extended warranty. And yet the odds are similarly against you. So that makes sense.

The delay consumption we talked about. And then consider this is number six. Consider how peripheral features of their purchases of your purchases may affect your day to day lives. So I think what that's about, and it's funny that you mentioned the tent and mosquitoes because they talk about that exact same thing that like I want to have a lake house. And so I'm focused on the lake house and I feel bad that I don't have it. But what they're saying is remember to help mitigate that FOMO or that that expectation deferral disappointment that when you go to the lake you're gonna get bitten by mosquitoes. They actually said that. And then the kids are going to be scratching them on the way home and then you're going to have the long drive between getting to the lake and coming back to the lake and then you're going to have the plumber that's got to fix the water heater at the lake that broke and so on and so forth. And so to help you feel good, remember everything both good and bad, so that you're not always longing for and nostalgizing that thing that you want to have without realizing that it comes with pluses and minuses.

Yeah. We always like to compare things what we have against the glorious unknown. Right. So I know what I have right now and I know it warts and all, but there's this thing over here that I don't know much about it because I don't have it and therefore I am only imagining that the good things. And yeah. I can't tell you how many people have said, oh man, it's so awesome that you like at a beach house. I wish I had a beach house. And it's like, well, every time I go down there, something's rusted and broken. I mean I literally just had to replace the H vac system. There's not a single time, you know, it's like a gas gets out. How much is that? It's always ten grand. Right. If you own a vacation property, what broke, it's 10 grand unless it's 100. Right. And so, and that's true now. I mean I love it. We have awesome family member memories there. And time again, as soon as we wrap up here, that's where I'm headed. But it is nice for me to be able to say to people who say they want to have a second home or a vacation property, look, here's some of the things to consider, like make sure you want to do that. Because if I literally didn't have somebody who looked over all that for me and didn't make the trip down when something broke so I didn't have to, it wouldn't be worth it. It would be more probably of a burden than joy.

Yeah. And you actually said this in a post when somebody was talking about, I think it was that they want to. Wanted to have a $10 million company. And your post, unlike everybody else's on that replies was, are you sure you want to? Because be careful what you wish for. And I thought that was cool. And then you pointed out some of the other things there. So for anybody that's thinking that, why don't you share a little bit Because I'm sure you remember that what's the other side to having that $10 million company that you might be thinking that you want?

Yeah. I mean, well, if you're running a million two million dollar business, then then usually what that looks like is you getting paid very well to do the thing that you love doing. Right? Most of us, when we start a business, we start a business because we're pretty good at something and somebody says you should start a business around that or we start doing it for other people and somebody tells somebody else. And a lot of us kind of become these accidental entrepreneurs. And as an accidental entrepreneur who isn't necessarily a sophisticated business operator, you can get to a million, 2 million a year, certainly get into the six figures and have a really great life. But making the leap from, and the leap frankly from 6 to 7 is not that massive in terms of the change that it takes and what you need to know how to do. But the leap from seven to eight and definitely going into nine, it is a fundamentally different thing. And you're no longer doing that thing that you like to do. You're now running a company. And not everybody wants to run a company. But you don't get to say, well, I want to go to 10 million, but I don't want to run a company. I'll just hire somebody from the outside to grow this. No, no, no. Maybe when you get to that level and you get the systems installed, then you can step away and have, you know, when we talk about the five exits of the entrepreneur, have exit number three, which is when you, you know, basically exit the OR chart, which is what something we've been able to do. But you don't just get to decide you're going to exit the org chart at 7 and then have somebody else come in and grow it to eight for you. Rarely there are obviously times when it happens if you sell it to somebody, maybe they'll grow it. But to say like, oh, somebody else is going to come in or it's just going to happen magically, it's not how it works. You've got to change and some people want to do that and they're excited about that change. Some people aren't excited about the change, but they're willing to, you know, deal with that to get to the next level that they are excited about. Some people just don't want it all. And if that's the case, you're better off staying where you are or selling to somebody else who has that larger infrastructure and be a part of a bigger thing. But just it goes to intentionality. Right? Like what, what is it that you really want? Make sure that you're clear. Because there's lots of ways be careful.

What you wish for. Meaning be careful in choosing what you're wishing for. Right. Be aware. And so I like that about it is to like that thinking about the other features. I thought that was pretty good. Seven is beware of comparison shopping. And the research there is that it changes your focus from the joy that you're going to get and the enjoyment of the process of anticipating the thing to focus on something that is not going to give you as much joy, which is I'm only focused at this point on getting the best price as opposed to the experience. And one example of this is we had a business partner, I remember we were at a nice hotel someplace and he was complaining about the, the price of room service, breakfast. And it was like an orange juice. He got an orange juice, I think. And one other thing, it was $80. And he's like, you know, this is terrible, you know, orange juice for $80 and blah blah. And it's like. But think about the experience. So what he missed out on because he was so focused on that one thing was he missed out on the experience of. Here I am at this beautiful hotel in this beautiful room with this beautiful view of all these amazing things with people that I love and doing things that I love that my whole lifestyle has led me to be able to realize the benefits of. And this is amazing juice because it was daggone good juice. But is it worth $80 as a glass of orange juice? As a piece of fruit that was squeezed into a glass? Heck no. But as part of that overall experience, was it? Yes. And so if you're comparison shopping and everything that you get, you're like, well I could get that for 15 cents over here. It's like you're failing to contextualize the whole experience and therefore you miss out on everything else because you're so focused on that. So they're talking about even down to comparison shopping engines now. I will tell you that this, we mentioned the France trip earlier. I frickin love looking for that one hole in the pricing and finding that. And it in no way stops me from enjoying because I'm already committed I'm gonna spend the 25 grand on the ticket. But if I can find it for 11 grand, I'm so happy. And it in no way for me takes away from that experience. So I think it's just like if you are obsessively focused on just price, price, price, price, price, that's not going to be as much fun of an Experience. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I mean it's like anytime we take a relationship and make it transactional, it's not going to be a relationship anymore. And so I think the same thing. You're basically transactional. Something that should be experiential. And so I think that's the person. I mean it's beware of comparison shopping. I would just shorten it to beware of comparison. Period. Just beware of comparison. I was trying to find it. It's credited to multiple people, but they said Theodore Roosevelt said was the one that said comparison is the thief of joy. I've also heard it's like Descartes and Einstein always gets it.

But.

But comparison is the thief of joy. I think whoever said it, and it's probably been said that that is something that I say all the time in reverberates in my mind because anytime I find I'm comparing what I have versus somebody else or this thing versus another thing, like the joy is extracted from the entire experience. So I think you've got to decide like am I doing comparison shopping because I want to transactionalize this or do I just enjoy the hunt? And again, that gets into what we talked about before of the pursuit is the experience. Right. So knowing what you're doing is it that you're always trying to find the best possible deal and anything less than the best is going to be a disappointment. If you know that's where you are, then don't buy it because you can't afford it anyway.

To me it applies to life because they say that the surest path to unhappiness is to compare yourself to others instead of comparing yourself to what you want. Because then you're focused. The measuring is based on what other people have and what you don't. Which is the whole tragedy of social media is that most of the comparison is comparing your real life to the false advertisement that is most people's social media. And most of which is not real. When you can rent a seat in a private plane for 15 minutes for $100 to take a selfie, that makes it look you're on a. I mean, oh my gosh, that's like for the person who's taking that false fraudulent picture, it's total imposter syndrome to the max. And for everybody that's watching it longing to be that person who by the way is a total fraud who you don't want to be, that's just unhappiness. Unhappiness, unhappiness which goes to the whole Buddhism, you know, expectation is the whole challenge of unhappiness and expectation based on comparison, that's like a double threat. So I thought that was kind of interesting. Eight and the final one we'll talk about today is this was kind of interesting. Follow the herd instead of your head. So what they're talking about is that if you read reviews and listen to other people and their experience of a thing of spending money on something, whatever it is experientially or thing wise, that, that that's going to be a better guide than you being in your head about it. Which I thought that was interesting because it seems to go against some of the other things that they said and they literally say in the thing, follow the herd instead of your head. And I thought that was kind of an interesting concept because I also look at reviews because I feel like that's the real thing. So I skip all the ad part. I almost never read that part. And then I go straight to the reviews to see like, do real people actually like this? And you know, and can I sort out the fake reviews from the real ones? Which is also unfortunate. We have to do. What do you think about that one?

I mean, it makes sense, you know, the. Because I mean there is wisdom in numbers, right? You've got to sift and sort it and ensure that the source of the herd, you know, because there's lots of herds in any different things. So am I following the right herd? Take wine for example. There are plenty of people who, their whole thing is, you know, screw high priced wine. I only want to find like really good tasting cheap wine. Okay, fine, like their opinion is perfectly valid. It's just not the one that I would follow because I can tell the difference and I enjoy the good rare stuff, right? We share that affliction. And so if I were following that herd, then that wouldn't necessarily be helpful for what I want to do. So I think understanding kind of what you're looking to get from it and following the herd of people who are coming at it from the same perspective and want to achieve the same result. Same thing we talked about before. There's people who want to maximize freedom and leisure and there's people who want to maximize experiences. And literally they want to take it to the extreme. So there's folks who would say, don't go to this resort. Everybody's just kind of sitting around and there's nothing to do. Well, that sounds freaking fantastic, right? They're like, no, they don't even offer like skydiving trips, excursions or anything, it's like, fine. So I think just being intentional about the herd that you follow, as opposed to just following any old herd is the only thing that I might add to that.

Yeah, I agree. I like it. Well, anyway, that was kind of a fun article and lots of interesting things. It was fun chatting about that. And so for all of you guys that are watching or listening, just take some of that into consideration and what works for you. Cool. And what doesn't, that's no problem. But it is really interesting that what we spend our money on can affect the degree to which having the money to spend impacts our happiness. And whether that's freedom or a healthy disrespect for the money or the ability to give to others or have experiences or any of those things, as long as we're thinking about this stuff actively in our heads, we're likely to ultimately be happier with it. So that's it. Any closing thoughts before we sign off for the day?

I think in the immortal words of Jay Z, if you can't buy it twice, you can't afford it. And so just keep that in mind, if you need to save a little bit more, do it. But that's nothing that'll make you happy is just not buying for the long term is not buying crap you can't afford on consumer debt.

So we're buying things just for the purpose of having things.

Bingo. So, yep, if you can buy twice, you can afford it. And if you wind up buying some stupid crap, hey, that's fine. You'll be all right. But. But definitely spend, spend. Have some fun. Go out there and have some fun.

And if you want to truly be happy, research scientifically shows that if you give our podcast a five star review and subscribe, you will be happier because you'll get to hang out with us. And we're kind of happy too. So subscribe. Give us five stars.

It's just science. It's just science.

It's just science. All right, guys, we'll see.

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