Your Seat At The Table With Robert Cialdini: The Godfather of Influence (and Pre-suasion).

Here's what we very often mistakenly say to those individuals. Can you give us your opinion on this? What you think when you ask for someone's opinion, that person takes a half step back from you and becomes a critic. If instead you change one word and ask for that person's advice.

He or.

She takes a half step forward towards you psychologically.

You're listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is your seat at the table. Welcome to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. This is the show's producer, Darren Clark. And have we got an exciting month on the show. We've hit around 1.5 million downloads and we're going to cross the 200 episode mark. So we are giving the show a boost and our listeners some love. Now, before I tell you who we have on the show this month, I just want to say congratulations to Colleen from Gainesville for winning the Apple AirPods on last week's contest. And we're going to be ramping up the contests this month with some incredible prizes and giveaways@businesslunchpodcast.com contest. And make sure you hit subscribe on Apple podcasts. Subscribe so you get all the details. So we are gonna be airing some huge episodes this month with Richard Branson, Sarah Blakely, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Marcus Lemonis and more. So we've got some good times ahead. And today let's kick off our power month with the man and the myth known internationally as the godfather of influence, the Dr. Robert Cialdini. Let's dive in.

Cool, cool, cool. It's so nice to have you here.

You know, it's great to be here and I've enjoyed every minute of we.

Got to have you out at war Room at our mastermind. And you were amazing. And I read your book when it first came out and have also learned so much from it. And I'm so happy you came over to the dark side of the marketers instead of the consumers. So one of the biggest questions that I think everybody has is it was 30.

33 years.

30.

Yeah, 33 years ago.

33 years ago you wrote Influence. Why so long? Why so long? Await.

Well, you know, the book has had more impact than I could have sensibly imagined when I wrote it. And it's been around for a long time in consciousness. In fact, I had an academic colleague from the University of Warsaw in Poland. She said to me once, bob, you know, your book is so famous in Poland that my students think you're dead. Well, with that background, I didn't want to plant a bunch of bushes around the tree that influence had become. I wanted to wait until I had the seed for another tree. And I didn't get that until the idea for pre suasion came along. Okay, so let me just say. So what I hope is that when that book came out, those Polish students wouldn't.

They would think it was your son.

Right. They wouldn't be able to say, oh, I guess Cialdini isn't dead, just diminished.

That would not be good. Yeah, you definitely came through. The book is amazing. What would you say is the main difference between influence and pre suasion?

Clearly, what influence was about concerned what to put into your message. What do you load into the communication itself in terms of six universal principles of influence that will move people in your direction? Pre suasion is about what to put into the moment before you send your message that will make people sympathetic to it.

Okay.

Before they encounter it.

Sure, that makes sense. What is that key moment before a message is?

Yeah. It is the moment that allows a communicator to create a state of mind in recipients that is aligned with the message they have yet to experience. Okay, let me give you an example from that actually triggered the whole idea for me. One Saturday morning, there was a knock at my door. I answered. There was a man asking me to contribute to a cause. It was a good cause. It was after school programs for children. And I hadn't heard that there were any such programs afoot in my district. And he didn't show me any credentials. But I wound up giving him more money than I normally give to people who come to my door. And after he left with my money, I remember closing the door and leaning against it and saying, wait a minute, that man didn't use any of my six principles. And he got me to give him more money than I normally do. What am I missing here? He didn't say, oh, all your neighbors are doing this. Or he didn't say, here's the credentials that say that you know the school district. Or he didn't say, this is a limited time. No. And I thought about it and I recognized he did something before he ever said a word that got me inclined to him. And after school programs for children, he brought his four year old daughter with.

Him, see pre framed, who was hiding.

Behind his legs, vulnerable. And I became. My mindset was to help children. Here was this little girl and she was so cute and she was vulnerable. And now I was set psychologically and cognitively for children. And that's what he did. And I thought to Myself, there's a book here.

So it turns out there was.

And it turns out there was.

So let's go to online because we're all digitally focused here. What would be an example of persuasion in an online context?

So here was a study that was done by Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines. They did an A B test. They sent out emails to half of their former customers that promoted a discount program that was only going to be available for a limited time. And when you clicked and opened the message, you saw a digital clock clicking down. You can only get this program. They did two versions of that. One was just as I described. The other one had two ticking clock emojis in the subject line. In other words, they put people in mind of scarcity, of a diminishing opportunity, and then when they encountered that 3% more, open the email. And I think that's out of curiosity. The emojis were noticeable a little different, 3% more. But when they did 15% more, then click through to purchase.

Wow.

That can only be true if those emojis did more than create curiosity. They created a mindset for scarcity that they then encountered. And I've been trying to contact the Royal Caribbean Cruise people who did the study. They won't tell me anything except that ad with the emojis produced several hundred percent greater profit than the other because of all of the excursions and up sales that go with that. So a 15% increase led to this dramatic increase in profits.

Yeah, that's great. How about another example?

I love one study that was done by some researchers with an online furniture store. For half of the visitors to the website, they went to a landing page that had fluffy soft clouds in the background, wallpaper. The other half went to a landing page that had pennies, small coins in the background. Those who went to the landing page with clouds bought more comfortable furniture. Those who went to the landing page with background, now as pennies bought less expensive furniture. So the concept that was elevated in attention drove people to that concept in the offerings that were there. And when they were asked afterwards, so did the clouds or the pennies make any difference? They laughed. They said, of course not. I'm a freestanding entity. I decide what to do based on my preferences. They never realized that their preferences in that moment had been shifted by the first thing they focused their attention on, softness or inexpensiveness. That's the sort of thing that I think online. What's on your website landing page, is it inherently linked to the central differentiator or the central core element of what you are going to be offering that should be registered and developed in your teams, it seems to me.

So one of the things that I read was channeled attention. And it suggests that to get a desired change, you don't have to alter a person's beliefs, you just have to alter what's prominent in their minds at the point of decision. Could you kind of expound on that a little bit? And if you have an example, share one.

Yeah, there's a great example. Well, there's a great story associated with that. And it is that typically when we decide what is important when we go into a situation, it's what we have chosen to pay attention to. Right? And that works most of the time. But a communicator can cause us to pay attention to one thing or another in that situation or whatever they present to us. That channeled attention then causes us to assume that because we're paying attention, it must be important.

Okay, is that the, Is it focal, Is causal? Is that the same kind of thing?

This is a great point. There's two things that happen when we pay attention to something. One is that we elevate its presumed importance to us. Right. Comfort is more important to us after we've seen cloud, cost is more important after we've seen pennies, that sort of thing. But the other thing that happens is that when we go into a situation and find ourselves paying attention to something, we assume that, that that must be a causal feature in that situation. It's another thing that's very adaptive to look at the causes in that situation. So once again, if we are directed to that concept, we also perceive it as more causal, as something that has action properties, that mobilizes, that changes us. So if we have a product or a service that we want to claim honestly and we want people to believe honestly, that will make a difference for them. It's dynamic, it's going to create an outcome. Focus their attention first on the concept that's related to that feature that we have. It can be reliability, it can be safety, it can be changed. Any of those things. Focus them on an image or a slogan or a setting where those things come to mind.

And so just for all of us when we're trying to apply this, does that mean like that's before you get to kind of selling. Before you get to. These are the features and benefits. So let's say we're selling a chair, one of these chairs, and the quality is the big factor. How might we pre frame that as opposed to saying in the copy, it's High quality, and it's made by the finest artisans in this place.

I think quality is too large a category. You have to tell me what features of it make it high quality. Is it its comfort, its softness? Is it its reliability? Is its safety. It's not gonna collapse. You won't have any problems with your kids climbing up and down, whatever. That. That's the thing that goes first.

Okay.

Okay.

So one of the things that was interesting, too, was in the book you talked about positive test strategy, and you said that it affected the polls when a pollster was asking people first whether they were adventurous or helpful. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Because I thought this was really interesting.

I love this study. There was actually two studies. One was it wasn't an online study. People walked up to individuals on the street, said, we're doing a marketing survey. Would you be willing to fill out this survey? We can't give you any money for it. Would you be. Oh. Under those circumstances, only 29% of the people were willing to do it, right? To give assistance to this stranger who is just asking them for their time with no compensation. That was for half of the subjects. For the other half, the guy walked up to them and said, excuse me, do you consider yourself a helpful person? And now 77.3% agreed to help out with the survey because we raised to consciousness the idea of helpfulness. And this positive test strategy has to do with when you ask someone a question, do you consider yourself helpful? They go into a search. It's a bias search. They go into a search for times that they were helpful, and they're going to have hits. They're going to find times. And so now the conception of themselves is helpful won the day. The other point that you raised had to do with asking people if they would try something new. This was a new soft drink. And some of them were given a piece of information with this new soft drink. And this could be done online because it was all digital, all aspects of this new soft drink. Would you like to try it under those circumstances? 33% said, okay, I'll take a flyer on this thing. I'll have to go someplace and get it, and so on. All right. But if they were first asked, excuse me, do you consider yourself an adventurous person who likes to try new things? Now, 55% of them are willing to do that because we had put them in mind of their adventurous character by how we ask the question. I just saw a study from Sweden in a supermarket. They wanted to market organic bananas, and they had three conditions. People would come into the store and there was a sign over a bin that said organic bananas. That's the control group. Another condition, the sign said organic bananas. Now the same price as regular bananas. An economic reason. And that produced a significant increase. But the one that outpaced even that sign said environmentalist. Now those people bought more. And so the question is environmentalist. And you can think about the times you did things for the environment. Now you buy more organic bananas than if you get an economic reason to do it.

So in our world where we can use Facebook insights and things like that to know if someone is predisposed to be an environmentalist or likes adventure type things, then how might we use that knowledge?

So now you're going to get even greater effect because you've caused people to register that they are that sort of person. Now the commitment and consistency principle from the six principles comes in. Oh, I am that sort of person. I should behave in ways that are congruent with the commitment I have made in the past. So you're going to get double effect.

So one really great point that you made was anything that draws focused attention to itself can lead observers to overestimate its importance. How do you use that or how does that manifest itself in what you've seen out there with all of your research?

Well, this is very similar to a comment that Daniel Kahneman, Nobel prize winner for his prospect theory. He provided a view of choices that said people are more willing to make a choice that allows them to to avoid loss than a choice that allows them to gain the very same thing. That's what won him the Nobel prize. But when he was asked if there's one thing that people should know that would help them understand how we operate in human behavior, he didn't use his Nobel prize winning theory. He said, here it is. Nothing is as important as you think it is while you are thinking about it. If we can get people to think about a particular concept or feature or strength or differentiator we have for them, it becomes more important. And the example can from that, from that furniture store study I was telling you about, the researchers did more than just record whether people wanted to buy comfortable furniture or not. They recorded what they thought, what these customers thought was most important in buying furniture. It was a sofa website, for the most part. Sofas, they rated comfort as more important to them after they saw clouds. They rated price as more important for them after they saw pennies. And then they searched the site.

I thought that was really interesting. Yeah.

For price related or comfort related information, because that's what you do. If this is important, then of course I'm going to search for. For information related to that which then created purchasing. Related to that is a really important feature. Is that importance is the important feature.

Of what take your best, strongest feature and position that as the most important thing in the prospects.

Exactly right. And you do it as close. You do it at the outset and just before you present your most important feature.

Okay.

You know, when we were at War Room last time I had a presentation and afterwards I had some time and I went and took a session that Perry was doing. Now Perry is a great copy, maybe the best copywriter I've ever seen. Online sales scripts and so on. And there were other copywriters and they were all comparing notes with one another and examples of how they did things. And you know what? I saw that Perry did that none of the others did as well.

What's that?

Subheadings in his material before he began a new section, he highlighted that section. He drew attention to the major feature of that paragraph or that section with a subheading. So he recognized that there are more than one message that you're going to want to give within your script. And he set up each one with a subheading before he invited people into the message. So essentially he was pre sueding each time there was a shift of attention to a new feature or idea.

That's great.

I didn't tell him that. I'm telling him now. If he's listening. It was brilliant. Brilliant, Perry.

So one of the other things he said is if you ask a girl for a phone number outside a flower store, triggering pre feelings of romance, she's more likely to give it to you than if you ask her in front of say a motorcycle store. So knowing this and also unless she really likes motorcycles, but knowing this and our ability to geo target ads, how might we use that? Like we know we can say we want this ad to be displayed when someone is in this particular environment. How would we use the pre suasion component there?

Well, so that environment now becomes the pre suader.

Right.

So if it's a flower shop, then that inclines people toward romance. Right. If it's a different kind of shop. Let me just explain the study that was done. It was done in France in a mall. As young women were walking through, the researchers had a very attractive young man, a model kind of looking guy come up and stop her and say, excuse me, I think you're very pretty. Could you give me your Phone number so I can call you for a date. Now that's a risky thing, right? When he asked in front of all kinds of other shops, a bakery, a shoe store, a clothing boutique, his success was dismal 15%. But when he asked in front of a flower shop, he doubled his success. Because flowers are associated with romance. So if even a situation can create the concept that is going to be related to your product or service. And the other study that they did that I really liked was they had a guy walk up to young women on the street and ask for a phone number. And if he was carrying one thing, his results doubled.

Really?

A guitar case?

That's awesome.

Because music is associated with romance. You see what that did? It made those young women prioritize romance over risk. That's a risky thing to give your phone number to some stranger who walks up. But when you are pre suaded by the setting or the situation, that thing that is pre sueding you becomes more important than other things that make you decide whether to say yes or no.

So we could do that with banners, banner ads and display ads too, right? If we're asking for an opt in or tying our product to something that would be pre framed to have a better response. Knowing that about the flower shop and the car case.

Yeah, but it's not just about romance. Whatever it is comes elevated in importance.

Cool. So you said if you Name a restaurant Studio 97 instead of Studio 17, people are more likely to spend more and tip higher too.

Tip higher.

How do we use this knowledge in developing brands and creating brand messages without having to call our studio ever greater numbers? Like studio 7,000,255.

Yeah. So we don't have to do it with numbers. Although here's a bottle of mineral water. How much would that cost? $2. Maybe here.

$72.

Okay, let's say it costs 2 bucks. I'm going to get it at bargain rate. And I can get you to pay significantly more for this bottle of water if I first ask you the distance to the sun.

Really? Just the distance to the sun.

The distance to the sun. Because after I've put the distance to the sun in your mind, this price is trivial.

So even an unrelated number. Not comparing the price of Evian or whatever designer to that.

Right, exactly. But here's where I'm going to say. Now I don't consider that ethical because the distance of the sun is unrelated to the merits of this bottle of water. But I think we do get to say before we offer the price, you know how many units of this we sold last year, we sold a million of them. Now that is inherently related to the merits of this. We get to use those kinds of numbers to pre suade people that this is a worthy option. And then I think we are allowed to use those kinds of numbers. They're real, they're genuine, and they apply to the merits of the object.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So let's talk about banner ads. You said when reading an article about education, readers who were repeatedly exposed to an ad about a new camera were significantly more favorable to the ad when, when they saw it later and that the more that they were exposed to the ad, the more they liked it. Why was the ad not subject to what we call ad fatigue or banner fatigue?

Because they were banner ads and people didn't register that they had seen them. They were very quickly presented at the peripheries of the information and so they didn't register that they had seen that ad many times and so the ads didn't wear out. Banner ads have a different quality than other kinds of ads where people register that they've seen them and think that, well, if they continue to send this ad, they're dunning me into a cent or it must be such a low level quality product that they need to keep sending these ads, spend all this money on. No, none of those cognitions apply here. They didn't even remember that they saw those ads. And that was the key. It was that they didn't remember that they saw them. That made them evade the wear out effects that normally are associated with multiple presentations.

And in that the rest of that study, was it that they were then more likely to consider the camera favorably when they saw it because they had not seen or not processed these ads before.

What they didn't recognize is that they had become familiar with the camera and that made it more accessible and desirable.

So for us, we tend to say there's a thing called frequency capping which limits the number of times that someone will see the ad that you're going to run and say retargeting or something like that. So that would argue against a frequency cap, really.

Right, right. It's the only kind of ad that I know that does so.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Also in how are we doing and rate our performance surveys, you said that focused attention that, that focused attention on their mostly favorable facets without consideration of the competitions and that that improved brand perception. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah.

So how many times have you gotten a message from your phone provider or the hotel where you're staying, can you rate your experience? Can you tell us how we're doing and so on. And when you do that, if you have a good product, what you'll focus on is all the great qualities of that product. So this is a Marriott, which is.

The Focal is causal.

Yeah, the Focal is causal. So you will then rate it very high, highly. But if you're asked to rate the Marriott versus the Hyatt or the Hilton, now you recognize, oh, wait a minute, these are good qualities, not unique to this, to this particular organization. So the key for using these kinds of approaches where you ask people to rate what you're doing is never ask them to rate it comparatively. Okay? Ask people to rate the quality of their experience. And if you've got a good product that's going to produce positive elevated satisfaction.

And so would you say generally most businesses should do that assuming that they have a good product or service?

That's right. If you've got a good product or service, you're in good shape to ask people. Give us your opinion.

Non comparative opinion, right?

Non comparative. Don't compare it to your. Compare it within your experience. How good was it?

Okay, so with satisficing, you said we save time by reducing the field of options being considered and selecting the first practicable candidate decision that presents itself. So basically make it good enough and then make it gone. How can marketers use this to their advantage when creating offers?

Well, here's where we use those six principles to get people so we give them evidence that this is what authorities believe. This is social proof. A lot of people like you, this is a scarce opportunity. This is consistent with commitments you have made. So you get them to focus by using one or another of those principles of influence on your product first or service. And because we're so busy when we see that this is a satisfactory solution, you don't go and check out all the others. This is enough. I'm too busy. No, this is a good one. Look at all the people who say it is or that's enough for me. I'm going to satisfy right here and not check out the competition.

And satisficing is a combination of suffice and satisfaction.

So it's sufficient to produce satisfaction. That's all I need. I'm not going to produce the optimal one. That's going to take too much time and energy to comb through all of the pros and cons of various. No, no, this is good. It's good enough. I want this decision to be Gone.

Now, I loved your idea for job interviewees about pre framing the interview by asking two questions before it starts. Could you share those two questions? Because I think that this applies to everything, not just job interviews, it applies.

To sales settings as well. So you know how if you go to a job interview, you typically face an evaluator or sometimes a group of maybe two or three of them in a room and you are trained to say, I'm very happy to be here. I'm happy to answer all of the questions that you have for me. Right. And you stop and you let them fire. I'm going to suggest that you persuade what they say to you by saying, but before we begin, I have a question for you. I'm curious. Why did you invite me here today? What was it about my candidacy that was attractive? And what you will experience is these people going into their materials and describing all the good things about you. Your experience, your credentials, your traits. And the interview will proceed from that platform. I have a colleague. Not a colleague, he's an acquaintance who claims he's gotten three better jobs in a row by using this strategy. He said he was even in one interview where there were three people evaluating them and they each came up with a different reason. Oh, well, it's how consistent you are with the values of our organization or.

It'S your background cements that as a fact. Right. Which is awesome.

Yes. And now they were arguing with one another about why they should hire him for the reason they should hire him. Yeah. And I think you can do that in a sales situation where you have competition against other rivals. Can you tell us why you decided that we would be one of your. Now they're going to be talking about all of the positive features of you, your products, your service.

So speaking of rivals, when we're in a sales situation, sometimes we're asking people to switch from the status quo to something new. A lot of times when we're offering products or services, we're trying to convince people to move to our thing from something else. How should we approach that?

Well, we've already talked about one thing about raising the idea of adventurousness to mind. We could ask the question.

We could have a.97% of everyone surveyed, by the way, says they're adventurous.

Says they're adventurous.

97%. Those 3% are so boring.

But you could ask, so are you a rock climber or have a picture of somebody, a downhill racer in the corner of your. Something associated with adventurous. But here's the one that lends itself to change. That we typically don't recognize. If you have a message for change, not any kind of message, but a message for change, you will be more successful if you send it in the first week of the month than the last week of the month, because something has just changed. Change is in the air, changes in mind. Better still, that's true. If you send your message for change on Monday or Tuesday than Thursday or Friday, it's the beginning of something. It's something new that makes sense.

So then also you said, I think that we want to persuade people that they have new information, that now, with that new information, had they gone back in time and they were making the same decision to choose the thing that is the status quo now, they would make the decision now to do our thing. I said that in a very complicated way. He's going to say it easier.

This is a very good point. So sometimes you are rowing against the current. Somebody's already made a choice.

The incumbent.

Right, the incumbent. And you've got the commitment and consistency principle working against you. These people are going to try to want to be consistent with what they've already done and justify that. If you ask them this question. We were doing some consulting for a pharmaceutical company, and after their prescribers, the doctors, chose a different drug, some other company's drug, they sent their salespeople, their sales reps to say, so we're curious, why did you decide for this? And what the doctors said was, well, it's got disadvantages. And this advantage, and this advantage, that's the wrong thing. You don't want the doctors investing their memory with the strengths of your rivals. That's like the reverse of what you want to do. So what we say instead is to say, well, tell me, if there was one thing about the drug you're currently using that you would like to change, what would it be? Now they're thinking about deficits, not benefits. Then you can say, oh, well, here's what we have to offer that's new, or that perhaps you didn't know. So you didn't make the wrong decision two years ago when you decided, or last year when you decided. If you were to say you made the wrong decision, their back would get up and they wouldn't want to hear it. You didn't make the wrong decision, you made the right decision at the time. But this moment is different than last year. There's something new that can be provided. So to continue to be a good decision maker, you'll want to.

And consistent.

And consistent with being a good decision maker. Deciding on the best evidence. This is the place to choose now. Yeah.

So just a couple more quick things. How do you decide which influence and persuasion approaches to use in a situation? Do you have an order that you think one's more powerful than another? How do you approach that?

I'm going to ask that two ways. One is to be sure that you don't have a favorite approach that you use across situations. I had a colleague who studied for three and a half years the question or he tried to answer, what is the single most effective sales tactic? And I saw him at a conference and he said, I found it. The single most effective sales tactic is not to have a single sales tactic. That's naive. That's ridiculous. All right, so you don't want, you want to go into every situation looking for what's there available. Is there true scarcity there? Use it. Is there true authority? Use it. Is there true commitment that they've already made that they could be considered? Use it. The other thing is to say there's certain levels of relationship. If the relationship is new, use reciprocity and liking to build the relationship. There's another level where people feel good about you, but they're uncertain of whether to choose. Use social proof and authority. That reduces uncertainty of what you are saying is the right thing. But then when you've got those two things and you want people to move, use commitment and consistency. This is what you've said, this is what's next or scarcity. You have to go now, otherwise you will lose. Those are the things that mobilize people after you've got the first two things in place.

So now you also said that you think that there is a seventh principle to influence.

Yes.

What is that?

That's the principle of unity. The idea that we share a common identity. And I'll give you a quick example of how we can use that. You know, one of the things we love to do is co creation with our customers, prospects, clients and so on. Help us develop the next model, the next generation of what we have to offer. Tell us what you're going to appreciate about this and then we will together with you in this partnership, develop that optimal next generation. That's brilliant to do that. We want a partner. But here's what we very often mistakenly say to those individuals. Can you give us your opinion on this? What you think when you ask for someone's opinion, that person takes a half step back from you and becomes a critic. If instead you change one word and ask for that person's advice.

He or.

She takes a half step forward towards you. Psychologically, you have.

It's a huge insight.

You have pre sued them to be a partner with that one word advice. And in fact, research shows that when you ask for advice on some new initiative, people are not only more favorable to it before they experience it, they feel a closer bond with you because you've asked them to be a collaborator with you rather than a critic of you.

That's great. What is the best way for anybody that wants to find out more about you and persuasion and influence?

Oh, the easiest way would be to go to our website www.influenceatwork. that's all one word. Influenceatwork.com awesome.

Just in parting, what would you say besides pre suasion and influence, what is the book that you give the most of any book that you believe is fantastic that someone else has written?

I give Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely Awesome.

You've been listening to Business Lunch with Roland Fraser. If you're enjoying the show, let us know by subscribing and leaving a review. And for more information go to businesslunchpodcast.com thank you for listening.

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I'll see you there.