Your Doctor Won't Prescribe This… But It's the Most Powerful Medicine on Earth

In today's episode of The Precision Wellness Practitioner, I get to have a really moving and profoundly life-changing conversation with Dr. Geeta Maker Clark. I met Dr. Geeta at the IFM Annual International Conference this past year, and she was speaking from the center stage. Her conversation with all of us and her presentation really blew our minds, and what she did is she expressed ancient wisdom with modern evidence and how it's impacting her clients in her practice, and how this wisdom is available to all of us who are willing to listen and apply it. She's also the author of the book Medicine for All People, where she shares profound ancient wisdom to help you live your best life. Live your most expressive life, and to have amazing outcomes when it comes to your health. Clients are referred to her from her colleagues when all options have been exhausted, and she has an amazing track record to helping people restore their humanity. I know you're gonna enjoy this conversation. You're gonna enjoy her spirit and her soul. So please enjoy. This interview with Dr. Geeta Maker-Clark. Dr. Geeta, welcome to the Precision Wellness Practitioner Podcast. I've been looking forward to this conversation, uh, since we met at IFM. You spoke from the stage and it just really spoke to my heart and soul and, and lit me up to know that there's other people out there who have such a reverence for nature and for this beautiful planet that we live on. And your goal and mission, from what I gathered, is to really make health available to everyone and to decentralize it, democratize it, just like our creator did. You know, I, I think that we've, we've come full circle and now it's time to really bring health to the masses. And yes, you really had such a powerful impact on me. And I looked around the room and I think that, you know, everyone was really moved by what you shared and the movement that you had us do, the dancing that you had us do. It was really quite impactful. So I wanna start by asking you a really simple question because, you know, you're Indian like me and I'm just curious where your reverence for nature came from because I grew up in a household where we didn't really engage with nature. Like we were not the type of people to go camping and, you know, things like that. It's almost like my parents left India to escape, you know, nature and live in a house as opposed to living outside and spending time outside. So I'm curious, like, Is that something in your upbringing that came up for you, that appreciation and reverence for nature, or is it something you adopted over time?

Yeah, that's such a good starting point. Well, like you, I also didn't grow up with an outdoorsy family. We weren't out in the forest preserves or camping. And in a sense, there's almost like a decolonization when we return to nature, right? Because our parents left India to come have a life that didn't require them to be out working manually in fields or farms or in the blazing sun under, you know, in an urban life like so many Indian laborers do. They came here for like a more, you know, protected life and wanted us to give us that as well. And I also grew up in a suburban area of a city and had a more indoor space. But like my dad is a very avid gardener. So I spent a lot of time, you know, helping him with hands in the soil. And he believes a lot in, you know, really getting dirty and really understanding what it takes to grow plants. And those were early introductions. And then I was just the kind of kid who, like, whenever I was outside, I was always climbing rocks or climbing trees or, you know, just didn't want to come inside. It was just a real connection that I deeply had to needing the outdoor time to decompress from school and from just the sort of grind, I suppose, of social life as an immigrant, one of the only immigrants in the neighbourhood that I grew up in. And it just has always been a, like, more diminutive part of my life when I was a child, but as I got older and I got to make my own choices, I've always chose being outside over being inside, you know? And the book really also focuses on that kind of nearby nature, like not needing to have a far-flung experience to really see steep into the beauty of just being outdoors.

Your book, since you bring it up, is Medicine for All People: Science and Ancient Wisdom for Revolutionary Healing. I love that title, and it's very much in alignment with the vision that, that we cast into the world, what we want to see for our clients. I think my most memorable moments— well, not I think, I know my most memorable moments are just being blown away by the beauty that this planet has to offer us. And there's just something really healing about being in those type of spaces. But I know that this goes beyond just being outside and being in nature. You talk about ancient wisdom, and that ancient wisdom, I think, is more relevant now than it ever was before. I'm curious, what are some of those key nuggets of ancient wisdom that you share with your patients as a practicing clinician?

Hmm. Oh, there's so many, Sachin. There's so many. I really have found them longer that I practice, and I've been practicing for 25 years now, the more, you know, ancient my prescriptions are evolving towards, you know, they're actually like going back to remembrance rather than like, this is the latest and greatest new thing. Right. And I think that speaks to the real potency and effectiveness and democracy of the accessible medicines that are all around us that got us to where we are today. So, you know, to tie into what we were speaking around in nature, I mean, even just today, I'm just coming to you after seeing a whole clinic full of patients. There were several people for whom a nature prescription was really appropriate. You know, it felt like some of the anxiety in particular that they were feeling were, was coming from having lost a sense of routine and rhythm to the day. And one of my patients, in fact, was a very young person. He's only 22 years old, but he had really, you know, due to digital life and not being enrolled in school at this moment, was really struggling with finding the dinacharya, which in Ayurveda is like that daily pattern, that daily rhythm and routine that all humans need so much. He was struggling without a dinacharya acharya. And of course he didn't know this, but as we were speaking, you know, it kind of came clear that, oh, when you were in school, you had sort of a like wake up at this time and do these things. And while maybe it wasn't intellectually what he wanted to do, it, it meant that he was awakening with the sun and coming home at dusk, and his, his circadian rhythms were tied to the Earth's rhythms. So I often will prescribe, you know, waking up to the sun. It doesn't have to be sunrise, but being outside and getting that morning sun. And we have so much research around this now and the importance of seeing morning sun through your eyes and increasing that neurotransmitter production and cortisol production in the morning. And, you know, the equal— equally important beauty of being aware of the dusk, you know, and that twilight light and that frequency helping our bodies start to increase our melatonin levels and preparing us for evening and for eventual sleep. So those are prescriptions I give very often that are really around just even being outside, not necessarily even going and, you know, going for a walk in the forest. Now, if someone has that access and that opportunity, then that is an incredible medicine. You know, as I, I also write about the beauty of forest bathing and all of the Japanese research and British and Korean research that illuminates the phytoncides, these plant-based chemicals that are antivirals and antibiotics and give us give that beautiful smell in the forest, but that actually help modulate our immune systems. We're so interconnected because we're part of nature. And reminding people of that, I think, is an incredible opportunity I have as a doctor.

Yeah, you don't hear too many physicians talking about prescribing outdoor time, time in nature. As, as part of their intervention.

What do your—

how do your peers— what do your peers think about this? Like, what's, what's their take? I'm curious if you've ever faced any backlash or any— yeah, any, any, any backlash or anything like that with your viewpoint.

Well, I'm lucky to be in a very supportive integrative medicine community where we are very, you know, I will say very evolved in our understandings of what the medicines are.

Yeah.

I do work in a conventional biomedical large healthcare system, and I wouldn't say I've received any backlash, but I do feel like, you know, what my assessment and plan looks like is very different than my colleague assessments and plans, you know, and, and whether or not they may consider that a worthy plan, you know, when it doesn't involve a lot of testing or pharmaceutical prescription, I do think that physicians generally appreciate that they have someone they can send their patients to who will offer a different perspective because we do get a lot of referrals from people who have tried, you know, physicians who have really tried everything in their toolbox, you know, to help someone and they're feeling like, okay, we need some new perspective here. So I'd like to think that they're appreciative of these kinds of interventions. As, as, um, you know, simple as they may seem.

Yeah. And, you know, the— it's, it's kind of ironic because it's really the simple things that have, you know, from what I've seen at least, and it sounds like what you're seeing as well, have some of the biggest impacts on people. And, you know, we, we kind of sometimes lose those basic foundational principles. Now, you talked about the rhythms. So there is a rhythm to the light and dark cycles of the day. What are some of the other rhythms that you're paying attention to, or or, you know, having your clients pay attention to?

Yeah, well, there's a chapter in the book around dance. And like you experienced at IFM, we had a chance to dance and move together. And I believe that rhythm, you know, being able to feel rhythm actually translated through one's body, is a very powerful form of embodiment. And, and a few of us, I think, are really walking around feeling embodied in this incredible vessel that we have. You know, we may be doing our best to take care of it. You know, in the best case scenario, many of my patients obviously are suffering from multiple chronic diseases and really struggling to take the best possible care of their bodies in the states that they're in. And here's this medicine dance that is available to everyone, that costs nothing, that can just take a few minutes. But what it offers is a chance for our bodies to actually, you know, like I said, translate rhythm, but also create new neuronal connections in the brain without us having to be up here cognitively thinking about it. You know, the brain and the body loves dancing, and all humans arguably love dancing. We all come from dancing cultures, all of us. You know, I think we've lost our way for a variety of reasons. Partly colonization, assimilation, stigma, all kinds of reasons, especially in America. You know, I think in other countries they still are dancing in the streets quite a bit more than we are. And the World Cup is helping us all, you know, reclaim that a little bit, seeing what that looks like around the world for different cultures. But dance is an incredibly powerful medicine. There's a lot of research now that shows that it can reduce the risk of neurodegenerative disease and among many other health benefits. But I do think it can restore, just as nature can restore us into rhythm with the planet, dance can restore our own rhythms to ourselves.

That's beautiful. You know, I did ayahuasca in 2025, and it was a very moving experience. And for those who have never done it, it's a, it's a plant medicine where you mix a vine and a shrub and boil it into a tea and then you consume it. And they refer to it as a grandmother medicine. And so you start going back into your ancestry and healing your ancestors in 7 generations in the past, 7 generations in the future. And I'm not the— I'm not one to dance, so to speak. So if we were at like a dance party, for example, I'd be kind of the guy on the side. But what I found really interesting as an observation of myself is that I would enjoy watching other people dance. So it would like— there's a part of me that was dancing on the inside with them, just watching them and appreciating them moving their bodies and just seeing, seeing them light up from the inside out. But when my— when I was doing my ayahuasca journey, I couldn't stop dancing.

Wow.

And so when I came back, I was telling my wife, and she was like so bewildered and shocked. That, like, there were times where I was the only one dancing.

Wow, wow.

And everyone's just, everyone's just laying in their mattresses, and I'm, I'm this guy off to the side just dancing. I just couldn't stop moving. So there's a part of me that was awakening through that process. And even when you were presenting and you had us all get up and move our bodies and dance, like, if that was 2 years ago, I would have probably just been standing there admiring everyone with a big smile and and not participating, but I found that there was a part of me that awakened through that process. And now I love dancing. And even when I came back, I would, you know, I'd wake up early, I do my yoga and mindfulness practices, and then I'd put on some music from the ayahuasca journey that I brought back as a playlist, and I would just start dancing. And it was just such a profoundly, like, moving and powerful exercise. And I just love that you were able to do that for all of us, because it does awaken a part of us that might be dormant.

It's really true. And that's so interesting that the plant medicine gave you that gift again, and it allowed you to reclaim, you know, that joy that you probably had as a young child, but it got sort of buried under the cobwebs somewhere in there, you know. But I think when we— you certainly dancing alone has just as much power, you know, as dancing with others. However, when we are able to dance in community, that collective effervescence is very, very elevating to the vibration of the room. And I think that's, that's what happened that day at that conference, you know, it was like we could shift the whole energy of a room and of a space. And that, that energy stays with you, you know, not just for that time that you're dancing, but for the whole rest of the day. And it can change the course of events truly.

Yeah. And you said something earlier that we're, we're all kind of, uh, we all grew up dancing, right? And if you look at a little child, if the music goes on, you know, they start bobbing their heads or moving their hips. So it's innate inside all of us. I'm curious if you have any theories as to why we stopped dancing. Is there anything that you've uncovered? I know it could be a variety of different reasons, but there are any patterns just so that you know, for those of us who have young children, we want them to keep dancing, right? Dance their dance, so to speak.

Right. Yeah, I write about this a bit in the book. I think historically there are many reasons why dance is no longer such a central part of our culture. You know, there was a time where when you needed healing, when you felt low or depressed or sick or something hurt and you went to the medicine person of your village, of your tribe, of your nation, what have you. That was the sort of cure, was that the village would come together and drum and dance with you, around you. This is still very much the case in many Native American nations, in West Africa where I've traveled somewhat with my dance teacher, and in India as well, and in many indigenous cultures that have kept their traditions alive, that the dance and the drum healing was the first line for those who were sick suffering, feeling lonely, isolated, abandoned, depressed, what have you. And I do think it was the forces of colonization throughout history that have actually been very intentional in taking dance away first from people because— and we see this in India, Bharatanatyam was outlawed by the British. In Brazil, capoeira was also outlawed by the Portuguese. There were— the tango was outlawed in Argentina by the Catholic church. There's a power and a communality to dance where we remember our power in community. And so it makes sense, you know, twisted sense, of course, from a colonial standpoint, if you're trying to, you know, subdue a nation, that you take away those, those very things that empower people the most. So to, to take dance away is a way to control people. And I do think that the historical ramifications of colonization have been that we no longer feel that dance is a birthright or dance is something that we can just do whenever we feel like. And that goes through very many generations for very many cultures. And then I think on a more sort of micro level, there is just the stigmatization of like, you know, maybe somebody said you weren't a good dancer, or you've watched enough dance videos that you think there is such a thing as good dancing and bad dancing, you know, and we have these ideas in our head like, oh, I can't dance, I can't sing, I can't You can't do this and that thing. And these are all just societal random labels, right? We're all just people living on a planet in the middle of the galaxy. We can do whatever we want. So, you know, I think it's a bunch of pressures that have come through over time that have taken its toll on our psyche. But what my job is and what I feel so strongly about when I prescribe dance is that maybe it just takes your doctor telling you, you could dance for 5 minutes a day to bring it right back. You know, it's right there for you every day. It's right there for you. So, and as soon as people engage in and remind themselves of this embodiment and this joy, it's like, why would I ever deprive myself of this again?

You know, you know, one of my, one of my dear friends, her name is Indica, and she's a practitioner based out of the UK, and she has a— she was a professional dancer. And she then brought it into her practice. So she became known as the Dancing Doctor. So she would go to conferences and, and really get people moving their bodies and embodying. Oh, you have? Okay, amazing. So, so, you know, you know what she does.

Yeah.

And it kind of reminded me a little bit of— I think, I think you guys would hit it off because of that common interest that you both have. And she was a mentee of mine, so I was mentoring her and helping her, you know, kind of grow her practice. And what was really fascinating is that she kind of kept butting up against challenges trying to grow her practice, but she really loved dancing and she didn't know how to mix the two. And then we turned it into a— she turned it into a prescription for her clients, and now she leads groups and practitioners and such. And she's even done that for our community. And it's some of the most moving things, like, you know, when you have the right music and you have the right choreography or just the right guidance, like, I remember the first time I was doing it, I was just like bawling my eyes out because there's just so much trauma that we have stored in our bodies. And this could be a way of moving that energy that's stagnant inside of us.

Right. It's deeply somatic and deeply healing work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's, there was a time I remember I went to Bali and we pulled up into our hotel and there's this huge billboard that said Pyramids of Qi.. And, and so these are like sound bath pyramids, these huge pyramids that they've built and they're beautiful. And so I looked it up, I'm like, oh, it's just down the road. And apparently people travel from all over the world to come here and we hadn't planned to go there. So I looked up the schedule and they had an ecstatic dance, cacao ceremony and sound bath. So I told my wife, I said, you're staying here and I'm going there. Because I don't want you to be there to judge me, or I don't feel— I don't want to feel like you're watching me. I want to go somewhere where I don't know anyone. Yeah. And I can just let go. And that, that was also a very profound experience for me. And so it kind of makes me wonder, like, how much of it is just me judging myself, or the fear of judgment from others, and holding on to that, right? So it's kind of a lesson that I can unpack a little bit more. Because, you know, we need to move our bodies, we need to express our bodies, not just through our voices, but, but also through our, through moving our bodies as well, because that's energy that becomes stagnant over time.

Exactly. I feel I'm so glad that you did that. And you recognize that need to be in a, you know, dance like no one is watching, quite honestly, because especially for men, I think it's very important that there's an opportunity to commune nonverbally in a joyful space. I feel like that has really been taken away from men, the opportunity to connect in those kinds of ways. And I mean, I say this all the time, but when I kind of look at the state of the world right now and the world leaders that we have, I can tell you right now that they didn't dance when they were kids. You know, like they didn't play very much when they were kids because that is how we process and emote and connect. You know, and it's like the more you do this, the more you can see like the impact that the consequences actually, you know, of not having an embodied liberated life. And, you know, the, the idea that that can change just as quickly as changing a practice in a single day, um, is immensely exciting to me. And a big reason why I wrote the book was like, you know, we don't have to wait for a cure for XYZ thing. We have all these medicines all around us, and they're like absolutely rapidly accessible.

So we've got the sun as medicine, that circadian rhythm, which is so important. We've got movement and dance, uh, as medicine. And I, and I think dance can mean whatever it needs to mean for you, just moving our bodies in a rhythm that feels good. What, what are some of the other medicines that you, you share with your, with your patients? Yeah.

There's another one that I really feel is an important and necessary medicine in these times in particular is community, you know, and I think that we are facing a crisis of loneliness and isolation and hyperindividualism, you know, where we have this sensibility that like we have to make it on our own and that these hero stories, these heroine stories are still about you know, centering on this false belief that any of us are successful based on our own, you know, just our own actions, you know, when we all are really standing on the shoulders of each other and requiring support. And so community to me is, is more than just about surrounding yourself with people. It's really around a feeling of belonging and safety. And our nervous systems deeply crave that, you know, require it. In fact, we deeply require it. So, you know, I, I always speak with people about the importance of prioritizing community in their life, like way more than work or, you know, anything else that they think needs to take front and center. It's like surround yourself by people who love you, people who like you. And if you don't have any of those people around you, you can find them. Them. You know, you can find them. We have so many opportunities now in this life to be able to find people with common interests. You know, even if you're brave enough to just go to a group, you know, a dance, ecstatic dance group, or go and take some lessons in, uh, you know, fiddle or whatever it is you want to do, you can find community and it can be life-changing for you. You have been like really closing yourself off to people and, and also closing yourself to trust and trusting relationships. So community building, I think, is incredibly important. And also that all— for those of us who do have community, to extend that community to those who need it the most. And, you know, that means, like my sister Valerie Kaur says, you see no stranger. You know, you look around and you see the people who need you, and you invite them into your community. And this is how nature works, and we're just another part of nature. Again, these— this is how the mycelium network under the forest floor works. They're communicating and protecting from predators and nurturing the forest floor and, and making sure the baby trees get more nutrients. And, and that's how we all need to be behaving in this world right now to be able to empower ourselves really to transcend these these stories of hyperindividualism that have been very damaging.

Yeah, especially with the way technology and things are going.

It's—

we're becoming more, even more and more socially isolated. So connected more than ever, but disconnected more than ever. More importantly, I think disconnected from our true self and our true nature. You know, I— when I look at the word community, I combine the words calm and unity. Right? So it's like where we feel at home, where we feel peace, where we feel seen, where we feel heard, where we feel like we have a voice. And, you know, I think that really helps regulate our nervous systems. And I think you would echo the same sentiment that a dysregulated nervous system is where a lot of our health and illness and disease starts. And so finding those anchors in our lives, whether it's somatic work like dance or breathwork, or you know, finding the right community and people that we love and trust and again can see us and hear us. And then also finding those rhythms and going back to those natural rhythms of life, because I think we've removed ourselves from the rhythms of light and dark, from hot and cold. You know, we've become creatures of comfort, which actually leads to even more discomfort and suffering in the long run. And getting people back to these basics, while is very easy to do, can sometimes be very challenging for people. So I'm curious, like, how you help clients overcome whatever internal resistance they might have to the recommendations that you give them.

Yeah, I really try to meet people where they're at. You know, these are big asks really for people, not because not because they don't understand, because quite honestly, I think most people have— even the young folks that I have in my patient practice, I have many teenagers, they really get it. They really understand, you know, how their lives of convenience and comfort, like you said, have been detrimental in some ways to their growth and evolution. And they aren't necessarily happy with their digital lives, but they also don't— because they've never grown up with anything but this kind of level of convenience, they also don't know how to navigate that discomfort, you know, that comes from making decisions to do something different or bold and brave in a way, you know, it's a lot to ask of a person. So I just really try to meet people where they're at and say, you know, where is the where is the place where you think you could make a change, you know, an easy one-step place where you can make a change? And so in regards to the things we've talked about thus far and the medicines we've talked about thus far, for one person, it might be much easier for them to sign up for a fiddle class than another person for whom just waking up to the sun is gonna be the greatest challenge, you know? Where do we, where do we find our inflection points that we want to change, what we want to change the most, and also what is the easiest entry point, you know? And the great thing about these medicines, as opposed to many other pills one might take, is they work so quickly that you're able to get the benefits very fast. And then that just spurs this sort of chain of events to continue and want more. And, um, some people are really ready for radical change. I do have patients who are really ready for that. And then I have others who we have to move more slowly and gently depending on where their lives are. But I do think, I do really truly believe everyone gets it and they get it, especially when we start the conversation. There's just a resonance. And it's so deeply desired to have those deep conversations about what real health means. You know, I think it's very refreshing for people to not just have like another prescription thrown at them.

Right. Yeah. One of the things that my son and I do every year now, because one thing that I feel is missing in our society is for men, you know, young boys turning into men, to have a rite of passage.

Yeah.

And we're missing that, right? And I didn't have— I don't think I had that rite of passage formally from my parents, or certainly not my father. And I would assume, you know, everyone's doing their best, right, with whatever was handed down to them. And so I made it a tradition now that every summer around my son's birthday, we go in the backcountry, we do something called portaging, And portaging is where you canoe, hike, and camp. And we go to a very sacred land called Algonquin Provincial Park here in Ontario. And we spent 3 days like so connected with each other, disconnected from the rest of the world. We have a sat phone, but we never use it, just, but it's there for emergencies just in case. And to just see the stars, to sleep in a hammock, to just be grounded. And to be held by, by nature is such a powerful thing. And I wish, I wish like more people would do that. So we've kind of expanded the circle. So we have this father-son trip that we're expanding and inviting more and more, you know, fathers and sons to join us. And it's, it's become like, it's become like a tradition now. So like I go twice, I go at least twice a year. This year I'm going with my son. And they're doing a couples trip as well. So we're going right around the time of the leaves changing color. So every day you wake up and it's, everything looks just a little bit different to kind of witness the beauty of transition. And it's just like, I just love it. I look forward to it every single year when you're there and you're canoeing back to, you know, back to base camp. And then you have to drive off and, and go back, come back into the matrix. It's like, I don't wanna come back. And it's really powerful because, and I think that there's something to be said about how long people spend in nature. And I, I just love your thoughts on it. I feel like when the first day you get there, you're kind of like, okay, where am I? What am I doing here? So your body arrives, but the next day your mind kind of comprehends, okay, this is what we're doing. And then I feel like on day 3 is when our soul arrives and then It's not like you said, it's not really learning something new. It's more of a remembering. And I feel like there's an activation of like parts of us that are asleep in this traditional kind of matrix world that we live in. And when we spend time in nature and in community and, you know, you've got to cook with a fire and so on and so forth, there's just a part of us that wakes up that we may have, for some people have never met that version of ourselves. And it's pretty cool. Like one thing that's really fascinating is you're not looking in a mirror for 3 days, so you kind of forget what you look like and it's not even relevant or, or, you know, necessary. But when you see yourself again for the first time after 3 days of not seeing yourself, it, you look different to yourself. Even there's just like something that shifts in us. And like you said, it happens so quickly because it's already inside of us. It's not like we have to go and acquire it. It's just flipping those switches that have always been there, but we didn't have the right, you know, environment to, to activate that part of us. I'd love your, I'd love your thoughts on that.

Yeah, that's such a— so beautiful, Sachin, that you take the time to, you know, create rites of passage and ritual like that for your son, for your community, for other couples. I do something similar with women in Costa Rica with one of my beloved soul sisters who lives there and has a beautiful little piece of land. And we really immerse in nature. We swim in waterfalls. And it's amazing how within 2 days, people's faces actually look so different that we've actually started taking photos from when they arrive to when they leave. It's only a 5-day retreat.

Yeah.

They look literally physically different from just being in the negative ions of the water, of the wild water, of being disconnected from digital, of being barefoot on land. And of course we dance a lot and do a lot of, you know, learning about how to take deep, deep care of our soul and spirit, which is so necessary. So I think the kinds of things that you and I are doing are wildly important. Important in these times, you know, where it's, it's really a steeping, and it's like giving people an opportunity to feel that transformation that comes from time, you know, not just from a short visit but from like a couple of days to allow the spirit to realign and to remind and to remember. And, and I also am very keenly aware of the challenges that so many people face to be able to do something like that. Right? I mean, this is an access issue, especially in a country where there's such deep inequity around opportunity. Of course, all of us can go outside, but, you know, plenty of my patients have 2 jobs, 3 jobs. They work separate jobs on the weekends than they do during the days. I have lots of single mothers in my practice. To suggest they could come to Costa Rica with me for 5 days is, is something they can't quite wrap their minds around, right? Because they'd like to. So I, I believe that the more that you can do is the— is better. It's dose-dependent, absolutely. And I believe that if walking across the street to the neighborhood park to have your dinner there, you know, or, you know, walking a mile with your son and just having a sweet conversation without phones and coming back is also really deep spiritual medicine. You know, that, that we can think about how the nearby opportunity is just as valid and beautiful as anything, you know, more far far-reaching or far-flung. So I think it's both and, you know, but if you have those opportunities that you and I are able to have, oh my gosh, taking them is life-transforming, right? It's life-transforming.

Yeah, it truly is. And, you know, you're speaking about Costa Rica.

I—

my buddy and I held a breathwork retreat for 7 days in, um, in Guanacaste, which is a longevity blue zone and you're right, people, people's faces change, right? Their energy, like their auric field, you can, you know, see the, the change that takes place. And on day 7, they're like a completely different human being. I had one of my clients send her husband and he had never done breathwork. He had never been to Costa Rica, never like been in, in this type of, you know, setting and environment. And he was like completely blown away. Like he had never met that version of him. And when he walked away, he was like a whole new person. And his wife, when he came back, when he came back, his wife messaged me and she's like, thank you. Like, this is so amazing to see my husband so joyful, so happy. Um, you know, so decompressed. He works in the finance space. So a lot of tension, stress, and, you know, anxiety kind of in that profession. So it's just amazing how fast our body responds. And one thing I tell people is like, if you're doing it right, being healthy should feel like rolling a boulder down a hill, not pushing a boulder up a hill.

Yeah, well said.

And it's like most of the things that we need, you know, if we were still hunters and gatherers, would be passively available to us, right? Like the squirrels and the chipmunks and the animals that live in my backyard, like, they don't have to think about going outside to see the sun or grounding or, you know, you know, the temperature cycles and the light and day cycles. Like, they're just, they're just in it. They're just living in congruence with who they are. And we're, you know, I guess there's the pendulum swings both ways. So I think, you know, for some people, the pendulum swinging back to wholeness and to nature and, and reconnecting with the earth, But for some people, it's swinging in the opposite direction with things like AI and, you know, digital technology and stuff like that. So I'd love your take on AI. I don't think you talked about it at the event, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are about it.

No, I didn't speak about it. I didn't write about it either, actually, and I didn't use it to write my book, for what it's worth. I think that's something worth mentioning because that did exist when I was writing the book in the, in the sort of like last legs of it. And I was really purposeful about wanting to, um, really intentional about wanting to make sure that I could preserve the sanctity of originality and creativity of my own thoughts. And I, I knew that there was just a potential, you know, for that to really change by utilizing it myself. So I've I've really been mindful about my use of AI. And I don't think, like most technologies, quite honestly, I feel like there's two sides to it. There's many sides, actually. There's many facets. And even in my own practice, I'm realizing some great efficiencies that have come through through the use of AI in our electronic medical record. You know, there's some great efficiencies that were really slowing us down as physicians in being able provide the best care for our patients because we're like mired in documentation and like, you know, sort of various other practicalities of modern medicine that have kind of infiltrated the patient-doctor relationship. And AI is helping to release some of that time burden. And I find that helpful and useful. And I think there is a great great danger, far more than what I think we're even able to conceive of in this moment. In just even the concept that we could have an artificial intelligence, even just the, um, the concept, the wording itself, right? That something as innate to humanity as our intelligence could be recreated in some kind of way. I don't believe it's possible. I don't believe it's possible to recreate the essence of human imagination and creativity. And maybe I just don't want to believe it's possible, but I really don't think it's possible. And, you know, the medicines for all people are in fact, like we've been saying, they are the remembrances and the reclamation of those things that our ancestors provided us to get here to this moment. So we need to rely on them so that our children 7 generations out can rely on us, you know, for choosing the right medicines. And I don't feel that AI is the right medicine. I don't think it's the medicine forward. I think it's a, it can be an aid. I think that it can be something that can be an adjuvant to, you know, some of the things that we're doing to maybe help improve them. But I don't think of it as a medicine.

Hmm. Yeah, I, I definitely agree. It's, it doesn't quite have a soul, which I think is so important. Right. And I think for pattern recognition, I think it can be valuable or doing some of the things that we might see as drudgerous. Yeah, summarizing, summarizing an authentic genuine conversation, I think is an appropriate use case for it versus generating the conversation from, you know, AI are two totally different things.

That's right.

And it's, yeah, it's funny too because like the, I'm big on words and if you just look at the words, it's in plain sight, right? It just tells you that it's not real intelligence. It's artificial intelligence. And, you know, when, when my son, you know, when my son was applying for a job, he's 16 and, you know, turning 16, I guess in August, we're like, hey, you know, Devin, you need to get a job. And not that you need to, but we'd love for you to have the responsibility of, of having a job, right? Reporting in, like, you know, kids tend to listen to other people sometimes more than listen to their parents. And he's a great kid. So I don't want to paint him in any other light. And, you know, he's, I'm like, you know, get, you know, get me, show me your resume, like just give me a first draft and I'll, and I'll take a look at it. And so he sent me his first draft and I'll admit that I was maybe a little bit too judgmental about what his first draft looked like. And my response to him was, you know, why don't you use AI, right? To at least create, you know, something. And, you know, what he shared with me kind of shook me to the core and made me so proud as a parent. And he said, Dad, AI is cheating. And it's cheating people out of knowing who I am.

Wow, that's profound.

So it was like, I was like, oh my God, I'm so proud of you. Like, thank you. And, you know, for saying that he goes to a Waldorf school, so they're very, you know, in tune with who they are. And, and, and I told him, I said, you know, Devin, I'm so proud of you because, you know, you don't want to sound like everyone else. Right. If, you know, and if everyone is, quote unquote, intelligent, everyone's dumb. If everyone's rich, everyone's poor, right? And vice versa. Like, we want equality, but we also want to understand that we have skills and capabilities in different areas. But if you level the playing field in all areas of life or intellect, then that's not very, you know, it's not very human, right? We're not used to that.

No, there's no uniqueness, right? There's a human present himself as the unique person that he is, right?

And, and he's very artistic. Like, he's a very, like, amazing artist, just naturally gifted in that. And, you know, growing up, like, that was— the arts was not emphasized in our family. It was more, you know, STEM, right? You know, the science and tech and engineering and math. And those, those are the grades that were emphasized. And, you know, I think maybe in— I think it served me well because doing the work that I'm doing now, but there's a part of my humanity that's missing.

Yeah.

That I wish I was able— I wish was just encouraged and emphasized a little bit more.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, you kind of lose that ability to express yourself. And one of the things that I, I don't do is I don't write using AI, like my social media posts and emails and stuff like that. I write each and every one of them myself because I believe that again, I'm cheating people out of knowing who I am and what I have to say. And, and I think that writing is a form of expression. So I, what I encouraged Devin to do is I told him, I said, listen, this is the way you stand out. Handwrite your resume. Hmm. Because he actually has a very neat penmanship and actually put on your your resume that this is not AI, right? This was, you know, as like a way of acknowledging your unique expression. Yeah. And, you know, when he's in school, like one of the things that all of his teachers do is they keep his art. They don't even let him bring his art home. They don't even let him at the end of the year take his art portfolio and bring it home. They're like, no, this is the school's property. Everyone else gets to bring their art home except him. And so when we go to the school, we get to see like just his beautiful expression of his creativity through his art. And in Waldorf, they actually make you draw all your notes out. So his, his, his notes are like art. They're like art books of expression. So it's just really cool to, to be able to see that. And as I said, I think the pendulum swinging in the opposite direction. So there's going to be so much more value put on human expression versus you know, machine expression. And I think at first there was novelty to it, like, oh, I could create this cool graphic, or I could do this. And but there's no soul to it. And you can see it, right? If you're living in that soul space yourself, you could immediately see that this is— this has soul to it and has a human touch to it versus something that doesn't.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's immediately recognizable to the human eye and the human heart. You know, I think we all can read something and know whether whether it was organically written or not, even in the just couple of years that this technology has existed. So yeah, I really feel you on that. And I appreciate that you were able to hear your son's heart around it because it's for us too, it's a convenience measure. We want our children to keep up. We want to keep up with the times. And this is a slippery slope we're in right now. It's very slippery.

Yeah. My, my mentor Joe Polish said, you know, sometimes we have to wonder if the race we're running is worth winning or not.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Every day. Every day we should ask ourselves that question.

So speaking of AI, and I guess the exact opposite of AI would be something that happened to you on, on the way to this interview where you had a flat tire. Right? It'd be nice if you could just like, you know, put into your ChatGPT, change my flat tire for me. But of course that's not happening anytime soon. And the reason I bring that up is because you actually had to change your tire, right? Is that, did I hear that correctly when you were sharing?

I haven't changed it. It's still sitting.

Oh, you haven't changed it.

Okay.

So it's still there.

I left it flat and came in to do this. Okay.

So the reason I bring this up is, is because in the face of stress, in the face of adversity, I'm curious, like the tools that you've developed for yourself, obviously you share them with clients, but you know, you have your own tools. How did you handle that? Like, what was, what was the internal dialogue? What was the way you processed it to then show up here calm and collected?

Yeah, well, it was, as I was sharing with you, you know, I was feeling this like gratitude that I was able to finish clinic early enough to come here to my son's workplace, pick him up, and go home to do this podcast with you. And then on the way to pick him up, I experienced this flat, and the flat came— I, I realized that I had it right when I was pulling into his parking lot. So I like made my way to a parking spot and I just thought, wow, I'm so grateful this happened here in this parking lot. You know, I'm in this safe place and I could pull into a spot and I'm here where my son is and I have someone who can help me. You know, he's 21, about to be 21, and he's, um, you know, wonderful, helpful human. And so I use that medicine of gratitude, you know, so often in my life that I don't even think about it anymore. But it reframed the entire situation, right? Of course, like, having a flat is not great. Um, it's also very hot here right now, and I, I was messing around in the car and just getting overheated in there, and I was starting to feel that feeling of like, I'm going to be late for this podcast and my car is overheating and I have a flat tire and I can't get the pump to— I couldn't get the pump to reach from the back to the very front, even though, um, you know, we have a pump. But it was like the cord wasn't long enough. There was like all these things that just didn't seem— that, that weren't going right. And yet I was like, okay, but I'm here, like, I'm safe, and, and it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay. And I think that medicine for me is really powerful, that medicine of gratitude, you know, because it just is an immediate reframer of a situation. Um, and then of course the breathwork, which you know better than anyone, you know, staying with my breath. Like, I was starting to feel that barometer going up, you know, and just being like, okay, just remind yourself, Geeta, like, you still have 15 minutes to find a place to do a podcast, and you can call your son, you know, call Sachin, call my son Sachin, and call my friend Sachin Patel and get everything squared away. And so, you know, I think I've developed these tools over time because I did used to be someone, especially as a younger person, I just repressed so much tension and stress in my life that it had a pretty serious consequence to my health over time. And I write about this in the book, you know, in medical school, I was really unhealthy. And many medical medical students of my generation were as well. There was very little focus on our mental and spiritual health in those times. And I teach medical school now, and I can tell you times have changed, you know, like our— this generation is much more aware of their, uh, the importance of their mental health. And we as teachers are also much more aware. So it was, you know, that journey has really taught me that there's really nothing more important than my peace. And then also my peace ripples out to everything around me. So if I'm trying to be a good mother and a good doctor and a good partner, I need to protect my own peace so that I can not then dump that onto, dump stress onto other people. But it's a journey, right? Some days are better than others.

Yeah. I mean, we're human after all, right? And That's part of the human experience. We will have ups and downs, and as long as when we're down, we can bring ourselves up, and when we're up, we have the tools to just stay grounded as well. I think the fact that you were able to process, express the gratitude, recognize, okay, there's no better place for this to happen than here. In fact, it reminds me of a story. I had a flat tire in my car. And my wife, my wife pulls into the garage and she's like, there's this loud hissing sound. And we had some construction happening just down the street. One of our neighbors moved in and was renovating their house. And so she got home, thank God, and the tire was flat because she ran over like one of the, one of the blades that was improperly discarded. And I'm like, no better place for this to happen than at home, safe, in the garage. And thankfully, we were able to, you know, call somebody over and they were able to repair the tire too. So gratitude is such a potent medicine. And it's something that, you know, I practice. One of my teammates has written a gratitude journal. In fact, we used to give all of our clients a gratitude journal as kind of their welcome package. And we would replace the journal for them anytime they brought it in and if it was filled. So we would just kind of create this lifetime gratitude, uh, you know, journal club, if you will. And it's, it's, it's so important. And again, free, yet so overlooked. And it's powerful for us to be able to see the good, uh, in every situation and the good in people, the good in the circumstance. You know, while, you know, of course you've got to deal with this still, it could have been a lot, it could have been a lot more challenging, right? So by the grace of God, there's a lesson in here somewhere, but you're, you're being protected at the same time that it's a safe lesson that you can learn, whatever that lesson might be. And you might not know that lesson until a year from now.

It's exactly it. And I, and that's why I, I wrote about it as a medicine too, is that I don't view gratitude as like just sort of a way of, you know, putting a sunny cast onto really difficult life situations. You know, life is very messy, is very complicated, very challenging. And for all of us, you know, certainly, you know, the amplitude of people's challenges change, but all of us have so many challenges in our lives. And, um, I really believe that gratitude builds strength in us to be able to then do the work that we're supposed to do in the world, to give us the resilience and the grit and the, you know, sort of grounding that allows us to do what we're meant to do, rather than to sort of bypass it by saying, well, it's okay, like, I'm just grateful I'm alive, or, you know, it's too bad the situation's so terrible, but like, I'm just grateful that it wasn't, you know, at another, another person or another day. It's, it's not a bypass. It when it's used correctly. Gratitude is used as— can be a way that we actually come to our greatest power, no matter how little we have. And again, like you said, it's free and it's available all the time. And, you know, I have a stack of gratitude journals this big from over the years, and when once in a while I'll page back to some many years ago gratitudes and just see like, oh, on this day, what was I grateful for? And sometimes it, you know, the most I could muster up was like, I'm grateful for this glass of water, you know, or something that was just right in front of me. But right, it was enough to get through to the next day, you know.

Yeah, you know, Steve Harvey has a quote, and maybe he's quoting somebody else, but I heard it from him, and he said, imagine you woke up tomorrow and only the things you were grateful for today were present in your life. And that really stuck with me because we take so much for granted, right? We have so much. And even for, for those of us who, who may not feel like we have everything we want or have a lot of desires, we still have a lot. I mean, certainly if you're listening to this, you are probably in the 1 to 10% of people on the entire planet. And it's easy for us to forget that because we're exposed to so much negativity. So much drama, war, you know, fighting, like all that, you know, separation, all that stuff. And I think gratitude is a great practice for us to incorporate into our lives.

Yes, me too, every day.

What are some of the other medicines? So we have gratitude, we have dance, we have appreciation for nature. What are some of the other tools that you're recommending?

So the medicines that I focus on are nature, food, plants, dance, community, trust, gratitude. We've talked about a lot of these already. Um, play is another beautiful, another beautiful medicine that I like to, I like to bring in because I think that's another one that gets really overlooked in the sort of seriousness and hustle of life is that, you know, play is not just for kids, that play is also for all of us. And that play doesn't have to look a certain way. It can even be a playful spirit. It can be, you know, telling jokes, it can be, you know, watching play and enjoying the laughter that comes from that. And I think that the consequences of us depriving ourselves of play actually have made us feel quite a bit more like, you know, not just down, but also sort of like overly focused on the hustle of life, and not nearly as focused on like the leisure and spaciousness of life. So the play chapter is one of my favorites. And it's actually the one that I kind of close the medicines up with, because there are different play personalities that play researchers have looked at. And discovering what kind of play personality you are can help you actually reclaim again your sense of play, even if you think you're just not a playful person anymore. Like, so, you know, for me, I'm, I'm a collector, you know, and my daughters are collectors too. We like to do arts and crafts and like, you know, I have a big spoon collection and a big rock collection. And these things give me a lot of joy to just, you know, kind of fiddle around when we're traveling and find these things and bring them home. And organize and play with them. And my son and my husband have a little bit more of a penchant for competitive play, and they like to do, you know, board games that are really kind of complex and that have a clear winner, and they have a ton of fun with that. And we all play those games, but they're not as fun for me as they are for them, you know. So we all have— and then my dad is a joker. My dad is a total joker, and so that's how he gets a lot joy is just like pranking people and telling silly jokes and stories. And, and learning about who we are as playful people and reminding ourselves of that playful spirit, I think, is another great medicine that is accessible and free to us and reminds us of who we really are. Because I really do think life feels so serious. There are a lot of very serious things happening in the world, but it shouldn't away our ability to enjoy life, you know, and find the fun and the play in it all.

Yeah, you know, I feel like you're really speaking to me as a father. And my son is who you might describe as the class joker. So, but he—

so he—

his teachers love him, because he's like, literally the life of, of the class.

Yeah.

And so I have a deal with them. I said, I'm not going to tell you to stop being who you are, um, as long as it's whatever you're doing is legal, I'm okay with it, right? You can bend the rules, you know, just don't get in trouble. And you, as long as you get good grades. And every time we have our teacher meetings, uh, with his, with his teachers, they say like, while Devin is disruptive, he's the life of the class, and we wouldn't have it and him any other way. So, you know, play is so essential, and it just, you know, putting a smile on people's face, it— I mean, what a gift to be able to do that for somebody else.

Absolutely, absolutely. And for our own selves, you know, I think it's just, it's so vital that we that we, you know, remember that we come from places of play and joy and dance and liveliness, you know, and that these, these true medicines actually can change the course of a day. You know, we were— my mom was recently not feeling well and was in the hospital, and there were, there was a couple of people who came in, nurses, physicians, who just like kind of cracked a little joke when they walked in, and it was such small offering, but it really meant so much to her, who had had like a sleepless night and so much worry and pain, you know, to just infuse the fact that like, hey, you're still here and we can still laugh even if this is not an ideal situation, you know. And, um, I appreciated it so much.

Yeah, it goes a long way, more than, more, more than people might know.

Yeah.

Uh, Geeta, you've been very generous, uh, with your time. I want to talk a little bit more about, about the book I know it's coming out in August, so maybe you can tell our listeners more about the book and why they should grab their copy.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. Medicine for All People: Science and Ancient Wisdom for Revolutionary Healing will be released on August 11th, and you can get it from all online sellers, your local independent bookstore. You can ask your library to stock it. Any and all ways that we can bring this book into communities, I think will be helpful because this book is about this conversation. The medicines for all people are the medicines that have brought us here through all of, all of human history, truly. And they're more than just kitchen table wisdom. They also are evidence-based. And so I dive deep into the science behind why all of these practices practices actually work because we have the science now to prove them. And, you know, that was not something I personally needed, but I do think as a person who works in a biomedical, you know, in the biomedical space, yeah, and in a, in a society now that is increasingly interested in the evidence base of medicine that we're using because we have so many people claiming to be experts on so many manner of things, I do think evidence Science matters and expertise matters. And this book is really very much a holding of ancestral wisdom as well as a holding of that deep science that shows us why these things matter and why our lives can be so deeply improved by them. So I go through all of the medicines that we discussed and more, and it's really framed in a— through a lens of love. And a lens of justice, because my goal is that this book reaches everyone regardless of their income, their status in society, their, um, you know, melanation, their zip code, but that they— that all people can see that these medicines are for all of us, not just some of us, which I think integrative medicine, functional medicine, some of these very you know, wonderful, effective healing methods have been increasingly sort of becoming increasingly exclusive to communities that can afford them. And this book is really a manifesto to say no, medicine is for all of us. And so I hope that this will resonate with readers. I hope it's the kind of book you keep on your bedside and open at night and read a chapter just to feel, you know, that sort of grounding that we really are on the right track as humans and that we can course correct when we need to and that life cannot be as complicated as it seems. And it's written with a lot of love.

I would expect nothing less from you. Wonderfully stated. And I really enjoyed our time together. Thank you. For being here. Thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for shining your light in the world. And thank you for making this available to everybody, really keeping, keeping it so that more and more people have access to remembering who they are, you know. And one thing I've said, you know, to my team and to the people that I work with is, I want what we share to be relevant across timelines. So if you were born 1,000 years ago, your message would be relevant. If you're born again 1,000 years from now, the same message will, will be relevant. And I'm so grateful that we have wisdom keepers like yourself that are imparting this knowledge into the medical space, because I feel like it's very much needed and missing. And I feel like it gives way more people access to, again, remembering the truth of who they are and express— expressing themselves in a way that creates more love and light. And we certainly need that right now. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you. And I look forward to seeing you again in person sometimes.

Me too. Thanks for this wonderful opportunity. I enjoyed this conversation so much.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Where, where should people buy the book? Should they just go to Amazon? Or do we want to send them to a particular website?

That's a great question. There is a preorder link depending on when you when we plan to drop the episode, but we can put in the Penguin Random House link and that clicks to a whole bunch of different bookstores they can choose.

Okay, I just ordered mine on Amazon, so it'll be here August 13th and I'm excited to dive in and read it. It will be one of those books that's by my bedside.

Thank you, thank you so much. I appreciate your support. I can't wait to see you and sign it for you.

Thank you. Thank you. Have a wonderful day. You too. Bye. Bye. Okay. We did it.

Yay.

Thank you.

Awesome. Thank you so much.

My pleasure. My pleasure. I really enjoyed our conversation. My body had goosebumps, like, you know, 50% of the time, uh, while you were speaking and, you know, it just really landed and resonated with me. So appreciate what you're doing and, and yeah, really looking forward to sharing this with our community.

Yeah, thank you so much, Sachin. I'm so glad that we met. I'm so glad I got to experience your gifts and your workshop, and I'm quite sure that being kindred spirits, we're gonna cross paths again.

Sounds amazing. Do you ever make your way to Toronto?

Well, no, but, and one of my cousins lives there, and recently, and I, um, and I may just be going up there to go to go meet him.

Okay, well, let me know. We have a beautiful home. Uh, you're welcome to, welcome to stay here if you need to, or just come by and visit. We can meet you where you are, and, uh, would love to take you for a walk in these woods here behind our house.

Oh, I would love that. Thank you for that generous offer. I will definitely let you know when I'm headed up.

Okay, sounds great. Have a wonderful day.

All right, you too. Be well. Thank you.

Bye.