Permission To... Walk Away

Weird luck.

They say fortune favors the bold. So what are you waiting for? The right time? The right sign? The right guide? The thing is, Movement Maker, you were never meant to follow anyone else. You were destined for something bolder and braver and truer, and you know it. It's time for you to write your own damn permission slip. You have permission to dream big. Not that you need it from us. Fortune favors the bold. So, what are you waiting for?

I get goosebumps every time.

It's so good.

Do some sort of weird dance to your speech. No? Okay.

No. This is so exciting because that actually was fairly smooth, and I just want to pat myself on the back.

I'm impressed.

Yeah, that was a little smoother than last week when I was in charge.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, we're learning, we're learning. Just a little StreamYard shout out. Um, there's a lot of things we like about StreamYard. One, all of us get to be in here together. Welcome, Jen! Jen, thanks! Round of applause, she's here!

Y'all are so great.

Well, thank you. We try, we try.

Um, we don't want to do it. It's not fun.

I mean, that's very entertaining right now.

Very entertaining. That's good. We make ourselves laugh, so it's good if someone else, uh, someone else laughs too. Hey Ginger, um, can you, without giving us any of your background because we're going to get into that, but what is Tin Tin Coaching?

What do you do?

Yeah, sure.

So, uh, Tin Tin Coaching is this business that I own, um, where I, um, I'm a trauma coach and speaker and trainer, um, and I partner with nonprofits and educational type spaces, whether that's school or after-school programs or whatever, um, and I really help equip volunteers and staff with the tools necessary to handle all the secondary trauma they deal with caring for other people going through a hard time. Um, so they can stay in their roles and not have to leave because they're burnt out and sad.

I know, isn't that—

you're just like a slow clap moment because, oh my gosh, is what you're doing so needed and important. Yes, yes it is. Thank you, thank you for doing what you're doing.

I know. And just for anyone who's saying, I don't— that sounds awesome, but also, what is secondary trauma? So can you define secondary trauma? Yeah, sure.

Um, so secondary trauma is when you indirectly experience a traumatic event that someone else has went through by either them telling you about it or by you maybe seeing it. Um, it's not something that has, you know, like primarily happened to you. So you hear about it through someone else's story, that's secondary trauma.

Okay, can you give us an exa— like not a detailed example, but like if you're volunteering with an organization that helps with the, um, un unhoused, how does that manifest itself?

Yeah, so a good example would be that maybe you have a client come in or a guest, that's what we can call them, and they might tell you the story about how they became unhoused. And of course not all of those stories are necessarily traumatic, but usually they are. And so hearing that story is an example of you experiencing secondary trauma. And then when you hear that on repeat over and over and over from multiple guests or clients, then it could become secondary traumatic stress, which then starts to impact you in your relationships outside of your volunteer role.

Yeah. I mean, are you not, do you not just feel like you've learned so much, Sally, already?

We are 4 minutes in, 4 minutes in, and I'm like, wow. I'm sitting there going, oh my gosh, as a speaker coach, I am hearing people's stories and helping them process their own stories in significant ways. I'm like, huh? Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't think it rises to that level. It's not the same thing, but, but there is a— we experience— it's part of why stories are so powerful is we experience each other.

Yeah, yep.

As we witness to each other's stories, I mean, it's it's powerful and real. And I just think it's so, so incredible what you're doing. And I have to ask, like, you and Erica have known each other for a long time. The two of you have worked together. You, you were at Erica's latest intensive, right?

I was, yes.

Yeah.

How was it, by the way?

Erica's not going to ask you, but I'm just going to say, okay, I think, um, this will not surprise Erica, But I have become like her number one fan, probably. And so, you know, like if there are any entrepreneurs in my life who are trying to figure out their business life, I'm like, oh, just go talk to Erica and she'll solve all your problems. Oh, that's just the way it is. And so like aggressively helpful, yes. But like for somebody like me, I don't like being told what to do and I don't like being told no. And so I need somebody like Erica in my life to be like, stop doing that. And go over here.

I'm like, okay. And she can do that, right? Because— and we'll just take a moment and talk about this. I know she's like, get me off the screen, please. Nope. I see her, like, her face is getting to be like, this is uncomfortable. But I don't care, Erika. Yeah, this professional nudger is just gonna nudge you right into this moment because it's important for us to— for you to hear it, uh, but for the community at large to hear this, because we need people in our lives like an Erica who says, uh, you know, I, I see, I see something that is important and real and needed, and I care about you too much to not to let it go on like this. And so Erica can get bossy like that because Oh yeah, we know it comes from a place of deep love and belief in you. It's, it's awesome to be, you know, aggressively helped. It is.

And I don't like being aggressively helped by really anybody. So that's a big deal.

Yeah.

Well, I do. I want to get into Jen's— I'm deflecting, but also I want to get into Jen's story because she didn't like come out of college and start doing this. But before she gets into the story, I want to say when she and I started working together, she had been doing this for a while, but really under the radar, not openly. And I think, Jen, not to speak for you, I'd love for you to speak to this, but I think you had some imposter syndrome or like, really, is anybody going to pay for this, etc.? And the growth that I have seen in Jen, both personally, professionally, and with her business, is she has started to believe that not only in herself, health, but that she is the person to deliver this. I mean, I'm not going to give any of her, like, info away, but this woman's business has— yeah, in the last, in the last year. So I'll let you talk to that, Jen. Where did you see that change? And then we'll bring it back to how did you end up doing this in the first place?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So, you know, just before we talk about how we got here, this was not a plan. So this was not what I had planned for my life. In the least bit. Um, I just kind of decided one day, which I'll explain here in a few minutes, um, that we were going to do this. But I didn't know if it was going to work, you know, because I did not go to school, like you said, to be an entrepreneur or a business— I don't even know, I don't even know, right? And so I'm like, let's just go and try to help people and see what happens. And so I was very slow moving, I was very intentional, um, on purpose a little bit, because I was concerned about being too busy like I was in my previous career, um, but also because I just wasn't confident, um, in how to do what I wanted to do, right? And so I know the content and I can talk about it until I'm blue in the face, but as far as owning a business and running the business and growing a business, that was like a foreign language to me. Um, and so that all just kind of— that all shifted basically, um, whenever I got plugged into the right people, i.e., Erica and the community, um, and then met other people who were doing the hard work and figuring it out and who I could bounce questions off of. Um, and just kind of having that guidance and that direction on what things are actually supposed to look like. Like why you need to have an actual bookkeeping process and not an app in your phone, things like that. Um, so I just didn't know what I didn't know. Um, but now that I have all these new friends who can help me out, um, things are— things are going really well. It's crazy.

Well, and one of the things I love about Jen— now that IG is over my face, it's fine. Um, one of the things I love about Jen is she is a really great student. So we talk a lot about— you throw something at Jen and she, she is the first person that is going to go ahead and go and do it. And if she doesn't, if she doesn't want to or she doesn't understand why, she asks questions until she gets to the point of willing to go do it, which I think does then transition to where did you come from? Like, how did you get to— you did not enter the world as a a secondary trauma-informed coach? Like, it was, it was a weird path. So why don't you walk us through that path?

Yeah, yeah, sure. Um, so prior to this, in my old, my old life, um, I was a teacher, um, in public education. And so I did that for 13 years before doing what I'm doing now. Um, I taught in some pretty challenging schools here locally in Knoxville, um, you know, high poverty high crime rates in the community, lots of violence. You name it, it was happening. Um, and so I was a pretty solid teacher.

I'm not one to toot my own horn, but what, what kind of solid teacher?

Erica really likes for me to say that I was Teacher of the Year.

Um, pause, pause. I love teachers. Teachers are so important. And look at you, Jen, thank you for being a teacher.

Yeah, it was great. Thanks. Well, thank you. Um, and so, and that was, you know, that was kind of the beginning of the end for me, to be honest with you. And so, yeah, um, when it was told to me— actually, it wasn't even told to me, it's usually a surprise, but I figured it out. Um, and so I started avoiding all of the people and places that I knew were going to bring this to light because I knew how not okay I was leading up to that point, and I knew the sacrifices that I had made personally and that my family had made that were not positive, um, that led to this recognition, right? And so it was almost like wearing a badge of honor for doing too much. Um, and so I just didn't go to the ceremony where they announced who was Teacher of the Year. I just didn't go. I pretended to be sick and I went home. Um, and then, you know, I had 6 administrators calling to see where I was. And I was like, I'm at the house, I'm not coming. Um, and that was the beginning of the end. That was right before COVID hit. Um, yeah, and so I used that time when school was closed to just kind of reset and reflect about what I wanted life to actually look like. Um, and then I started to realize then that being in public education didn't align with that anymore. Um, but I stayed for another year and a half trying to force it to work. Um, which really only just added more to the downs, like the downhill spiral, and actually hitting rock bottom because I should have walked away, but I didn't. And so then we had to, and now we ended up doing these things. So took a leave of absence, resigned, and then when the fog cleared for myself, I was like, you know, this is a real issue for everybody in these roles, um, you know, we're gonna go back and try to help figure it out.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, thank you for sharing that part of your story. And I just want to say, I'm sorry. You're like, right as I'm like, yay, yay. You're like, actually, no. That was the turning point. Okay. Okay. Dial it back. Dial it back. And you're right. You are not alone. Your experience is sadly not unique that our serving professions like teachers, anybody in the medical profession for the last few years in particular. I mean, we could go on and on. People who are in the social service sector, they are struggling, especially because they get into it with this belief and drive to help other people, and you realize it's, it's going to take everything, so much from me in order to do it. To be Teacher of the Year took so much from you. Yep. And it's not sustainable. So I just think it's beautiful that you're taking your story and your experience and turning it into a, a business, right? Which is an incredible way to mine from your own life's experience and make it meaningful and service other people and still provide for you. Like, I think that's really, really cool. And, and still be serving ultimately the people that you, you started with. Yeah.

I want to talk about some of her permission slips. I mean, not to get too into the weeds here, but Jen, tell a couple of things. So I'll ask, I'm going to tell you all the ones I want to ask, but then we'll start with one. So I want to ask about your like giving yourself the permission slip to walk away from not just such a long career, but obviously a successful one. So that's kind of permission slip one. And then permission slip two is that while your business has grown significantly, you have been very attentive to making sure that you're not falling back into not necessarily the secondary trauma piece, but the, um, what's, what your family is giving. Um, and you have, you've managed, you've managed that, including things like saying, no, I'm not serving these kind, this industry, etc. So I want to talk about your permission slip to be really specific and who you're actually serving to. So let's start with the permission to walk away. How does that, how does that happen? Is it internal? Is it with your, with your husband? Is it with your kids? How does that happen?

You know, it was, it was a combination of all of that, honestly. Um, he gave me permission to walk away way before I even I actually started to even think about doing it for myself. I would say years before, you know, he was planting little seeds, my husband, about maybe you should go and try to work in a different district or work in, I'm going to say, an easier school. Um, all schools have their challenges, of course, but he was trying to nudge me in that direction. But bless him, he is such a good person, he would not just come out and straight up say this is not okay, you know. So that was part of it. A lot of it for me was internal. You know, I was somebody who definitely hustled for my identity, being wrapped up in my job. I was just a performer, you know, that's kind of how I was raised. That is the model that I had. And my mom, you know, she's a great, phenomenal parent, but she definitely was a hustler too. And she worked really hard and her performance was her identity. And so that's how it became for me. And I didn't see anything wrong with that. Um, but then I had a very good friend who looked at me in the face one day and said, hey, did you know that if you quit today, they'll replace you by tomorrow? And if something were to happen to you, you are not replaceable at home.

And I was like, oh, that's the goosebumps right there.

Oh damn, yeah, it's something like that. Really, it opened my eyes, you know, and I started to see how the professional choices I was making were impacting the little people at my house. I mean, I'm a mom of 3 boys, and so like, that's not— that's unacceptable. It's just unacceptable. Um, and so I had to make that internal shift where it was like, being a teacher is not who I am, it's what I do. Um, and this is not— this is not all right. Um, and so then when I, you know, tried to fight and figure it out and put things in place to still be able to stay the damage had already been done, um, for me at least, in my mental health, my emotional health, but also for my family. So I was like, now that I have figured out the answer per se, like, I still have to go. I still have to go.

Yeah.

So yeah, wow, I feel that. And I'm hearing echoes of Erica's op model, Jen and Jen's business. Yeah, they're two different mugs.

Yep, there they are. There's the mugs. Jen knows the mugs well.

She could teach it if she wanted to.

You give yourself, you give yourself permission, but externally, what does that look like? Is administration like, no, we want you to stay? And do you have to advocate for yourself in that situation? Because making, as Sally says, making the decision is one thing, but actually doing it is another. I think having the quote-unquote permission slip, even if it's not tangible, helps you in the moving towards the doing past the decision-making. But what— how did that happen?

Yeah, so, you know, in the last role that I had in the school system, I was in a leadership role, and so I was already a little detached from students, which is helpful. You know, there's not that responsibility kind of looming over you. I was a coach for teachers, um, and helping them figure out behavior management things and their own personal, um, well-being is what I was doing. Um, and so honestly, I was responsible for like 20 teachers, um, and I was only part-time, and that wasn't sustainable either. Um, and so I was just noticing that every avenue I was trying to meet these outcomes wasn't working. Um, and so honestly, I knew that leadership wouldn't take it well And so I picked up the phone one afternoon after school and made a phone call to leadership and said, hey, I'm gonna go on a leave of absence starting on this date. I just wanted you to know. And the question I got back was, is there anything I can do to change your mind? And I said no. And I haven't spoken to that leader since that phone call. And that's how it went.

That's how it— and that's how it went.

That's how it went.

But you had that.

Okay, so I mean, brave, right? Let's just acknowledge the bravery to get to that place where— because a lot of people just put up with the, you know, from an entrepreneurial perspective, as probably likely the people listening and watching are entrepreneurs themselves and might be in a situation where they're like, there's something else. Like, I know that this isn't working for me anymore. There's something else that I want to do. I want to go create something that feels more aligned with where I'm at. And generationally, this is more and more people are coming into entrepreneurship for this exact reason. So for you, Jen, aside from you know, support from your husband who's like laying the groundwork for you and your friends who are saying, hey, FYI, you don't have to do this. You do not. This is not where your identity is. At some point you just do. Um, was there anything in particular that helped you give yourself that permission? Like, if you— when you look back on it, it's like What I really needed was this, you know, moment of recognition, or whatever it was, that, that helps you give yourself the permission to actually do, not just think about it, but really do, you know?

Yeah.

You know, I think for me it was just, it was a list of events. Um, it was a list of events for me and just a list of different situations, you know. Um, and a lot of it were things that were happening in the professional space in the building, and a lot of it was things that was happening at home, you know. Um, and so just trying to balance that, um, and just come into the realization that I had to make a choice. Um, and so, you know, I chose the people who I'm responsible to, not the job that I was doing. Um, yeah. And then also, you know, like, I wasn't the only one who was walking away. Yeah. Um, I wasn't the first one, I wasn't the only one, I wasn't the last. Um, and so there had already been people making moves before me, also in leadership roles. Um, and I was like, you know, we're just gonna go and do that too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So sometimes being around other people who you see giving themselves permission, yeah, is inspiring and lets you know this is doable. I can actually do this. Yeah, um, it's not this like far-off thing, but it, it could be a now thing for me.

Yeah, I mean, I think that the scary part was just not having a plan, you know, like I want to leave it, that sense thinking I could go back. Um, the plan wasn't to resign, the plan was not any of this, um, you know, but just some lots of uncertainty and I do like to have control. And so that was not a thing I wanted to do. But yeah, here we are now.

Yeah.

So then we're going to fast forward up to where you and I met and started working together, et cetera. And while you had a plan on what you were offering, you didn't have a real solid who you were offering it to. There's a lot of options. I mean, Sally, like you said, there are a lot of people who are facing secondary trauma, right? Um, so you had worked in several different, uh, I'll call them industries, right? Uh, with people in a lot of those. Um, but as your business started to grow, you, you wrote yourself and your business a couple permission slips. So what were, what were those? And what was it that made that get— same question— that made you have that? How did you get to that point to be able to write those permission slips, to make those decisions that really a lot of people would look and be like, oh, that was not what she should have done.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Are you—

I'm just going to be very like candid. Are you talking about when I said no, we're not going to serve these people anymore?

Yeah, those ones.

Okay, great.

Thank you. Um, yeah, so, um, kind of like what you said, Sally, prior to, you know, figuring out what I was actually going to do, I was like, oh yeah, look, everybody has secondary trauma. Nurses, you know, law enforcement, social workers, counselors, teachers, humans, just people, you know, people in the world who are on social media. Like, you can see the news from all around the world. I could talk to anybody, um, but I realized that wasn't— that's not what we're gonna do, you know. And so we narrowed it down to just nonprofits, um, and educators. Not just people in school, but educators, right, who are working with kids. Um, and so specifically for those is just because that's kind of where my It's where my expertise kind of lies, um, and where I had decades of my life. Um, and so not only for those two groups of people can I speak to the secondary trauma part, but I can actually speak to the work that they do, you know, um, which is super powerful. I could talk to a nurse all day long about secondary trauma, but I can't have a conversation with you about actually being a nurse, you know. Yeah. And so at some point there would be a place where I could no longer serve you.

So yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful. And we all know that the riches are in the niches because we don't, we don't like to say niche, niches.

We don't, even though it rhymes. No, so no, there we go, there we go.

Rhyming is fun, but in this situation we're just gonna go ahead And say the riches are in the niches. Um, it sounds like it's worked, Jen, which is amazing. Like, it sounds like the narrowing the focus has allowed you to grow. Like, what a cool little takeaway for everybody who's listening, that, you know, it comes in phases. We tend to, as we build our business, we're like, yes, everybody, and you realize, yeah, I could, I could serve everybody.. But as you focus in on who are the people that you specifically, Jen Barovi, based on your life experiences, your stories, who you can serve most effectively and honing in on that, what, how that's opened up your business. Super exciting. Very happy.

We're very excited. She's like, I've got a proposal. Oh, it's accepted. I've got a proposal.

Oh, it's accepted.

But that said, she has a growth plan. Um, she's got some real strong boundaries on how much more growth she's allowing for. Um, she, she has been on, on it as far as, um, making sure that she's not putting herself back in a negative space.

Yeah.

Um, okay, I want to know, because you were at the conference, what was your biggest takeaway from the conference experience itself?

You know, I think there's— I've been thinking about this specific question since yesterday, actually, um, because I have multiple answers and I just can't choose one. Um, so one of the big takeaways for me was just, just the importance of authenticity. You know, I don't know if that was necessarily something that we were trying to put out at the conference, but that's what I picked up on, is that like the speakers themselves were incredibly different and incredibly authentic. Um, but just how powerful the messages were through their— on this, like, through their ability to be authentic, you know. Um, and just— I really value just being a real person, um, no fancy fluff, you know, like, that's just not who I am. Um, but how, like, you can be your real self and be authentic and show up in spaces, um, and be valued and be heard and be cared for, and it, like, being great in being successful. And like, and if that's not happening in places where you were going, then don't go there. I love that, you know. So that was one big takeaway. Obviously the second one was just the importance of community. Like, I don't even know if Sally remembers, but she came and sat down at my table for lunch.

I did. I do.

Nervous.

I was like, oh my gosh, she was in person.

What is happening? You know, I don't know. I was just kind of there watching, which is what I do. I observe a lot. Um, and that was so great. I don't know. And just, I don't know, those two things. It was great.

That's awesome.

So what's funny is I remember that conversation and I remember talking to a trauma-informed speaker and entrepreneur and, you know, but the name Jen Morovi did not click in because whatever, I'm not great with the names. And so when you, like, today you show up, I'm like, yep, that's the one. That's how my brain works. But I do. Yeah, I absolutely remember that. And it was important to me as the producer and host, whatever. Eric and I were running around like crazy, and I was like, I need at lunch, I need to just go talk to people who have been sitting out here. And get into their world a little bit and get out of production zone for a little bit. And I needed to eat, so, you know, it was like check off the box. Yeah, but it was great, and I loved, I loved our conversation and remembered you. So I'm so glad that, that you felt that, and really importantly, that, that authenticity piece came through. Because although that we weren't like, we want to share authentic. I mean, of course we want our speakers to be authentic, but the fact that you got that out of that is absolutely underlines our purpose and so much of our why. So thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, of course.

Okay. I'm going to tell Jen she did a great job today. Because I know she— I know her well enough to know she was probably like, oh gosh, I got to get on camera and do this today. So thank you for it. And I just am so grateful that we have the opportunity to work together. But also, I'm going to let Sally, because she's the best at it, ask you the final question.

Ba dum bum.

Ba dum bum. All right, Jen, what is the next permission slip that you are giving yourself? Man, big. Okay, it doesn't have to be big, it can be little. It can be little.

No, it can be a little permission slip. It's just a big question.

Yeah, it is a big question, but it's an important question. And so, you know, we are wrapping up the school calendar, and as a mom of 3 boys, like, I need to give myself permission to just be mom in the summer as much as possible because the business will be okay. Because we have put things in place to where it's not going to fall apart.

That's pretty big right there, because there are a lot of business owners right now going, okay, how am I going to do this over the summer with the people? Yep. In my business. Yes. All the time. So congratulations, that's huge. Hey, that's probably— I don't know, I don't want to assume, but I'm guessing Erica has helped you put some of those things in place so that you can.

Yes, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. I love—

she's not making Erica so uncomfortable. She's like, this is not about me.

It's, it's not.

But congratulations, Jen, on all your success. Good for you, good for the world, really. The more successful you are, the better humans are who are out there doing really important work. So thanks for what you're doing. Keep it going.

Yeah, well, thank you guys.

I appreciate you both.

Yay!

Okay, let's dance our way out.

You're gonna make me dance?

Okay, you don't have to do it. You don't have to, you really don't.

You don't have to, but it's so fun.

It's So fun!

Are you ready? Here we go.

Yeah, you know what, I turned the music way down. Here we go.

Oh, this is a hard dance.

Okay, okay, let's try this one. Ready? Better?

This one?

Oh good. Hey Jen, you're awesome!

Hi!

Nice to meet you! Bye-bye!