Permission To... Work with Joy

7 hours driving on the highway, far away, far away, far away. Every moment I was spending on regrets was such a waste, such a waste, such a waste. Looking on the city lights flashing bright in my eyes. Look up into the sky and I got this relief inside, then there's no need to hide. I'm going all the way up, I'm going all the way up, I'm letting go in my heart of everything that holds me down. Oh yeah, it's all around me. All I need to know how I can believe another brand new world and where I should be.

They say fortune favors the bold. So what are you waiting for? The right time? The right sign? The right guide? The thing is, Movement Maker, you were never meant to follow anyone else. You were destined for something bolder and braver and truer, and you know it. It's time for you to write your own damn permission slip. You have permission to dream big. Not that you need it from us. Fortune favors the bold. So what are you waiting for?

I don't—

I wasn't—

I got to dance.

We got to start with the dancing.

Do the head dancing.

It's like car dancing. Yes, yes, yes, yes! Hi Jen!

Hi!

Welcome to the Provisional Slip Podcast livestream where we like to sing randomly.

I don't know anything about that kind of life.

I know, it's like, well, Jen's gonna be here, we're gonna sing, we're gonna have multiple beverages.

Absolutely, yes!

I only have two right now in front of me.

I only have two as well, they're just different water bottles.

Oh yeah, what's your— this is a question that has nothing to do with what we're going to talk about, but it's an important question nonetheless. How much water do you drink every day?

Oh, at least 18 cups. At least. I have at least 3 of these a day, and this is 6 cups, probably more, but that's about it.

Oh, okay. I think we've talked about this, but as people We've worked together a really long time.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Yes. Um, and when— way back, way back in the day when I was, uh, whatever, you know, I wanted to be an actor. There was a point in my life where I was, I was gonna go be an actor, and I was in an MFA acting program and working with, you know, vocal coaches and everybody on the skills of it. And I remember the vocal coach saying to me, if your pee isn't clear, get off the stage. And I was like, whoa. So I tried for a while. I was like, and between every class I was running to the bathroom. I'm like, this is not practical. This does not work for this body. So it'd be like, I'm gonna go for mostly clear. That's the best I can do.

Amazing. I think, uh, my life as a former educator in elementary school, as an educator and, uh, administrator, you just figure out how to drink water and not go because there's just hours where you cannot.

Oh my gosh, I can't imagine. I really cannot imagine the level of, um, self-sacrifice again and again. That teachers and educators do just all the time. All the time. Yeah.

Oh, amazing, amazing.

Well, welcome, Jen Whitmer.

Welcome, welcome.

I am delighted to have you as an official member of the Permission Slip community. You were there in December 2023.

I know. Do we get cards now? Like, can I be a card-carrying member? Like, is there something official?

That's always That's a great idea.

My card.

Yes, you get a card. You get a card. No, we go way back. We go way back, pre-Permission Slip moments. And I, I know you deeply and, and well, but maybe people who are watching this have not met you yet. So give us, give us the intro, Jen Whitmer. Who are you? What do you do? Tell us something.

Well, what I do is I am a speaker and a consultant and just all-around joy bringer. Um, I am a mom of 4 kids from 14 to 21, and that we have 2 still at home, 2 are in college. I married my high school sweetheart. We are that story, and we've been married for almost 27 years. We live in St. Louis. And I started my career as an educator, as we just talked about. And then I experienced the best leader I've ever had, and then a change of leadership with a leader who was unskilled and unhealed, as I like to say. And that created a toxic work environment that just about destroyed me. I was in my dream job and that happened, and it was really awful. So from that, uh, that was about 7 years ago, I started trying to figure out, well, what do I— what do I now want to be? I was going to be an educator, like, that's what I was going to do. I was going to go on to the next thing of education, which was teach pre-service teachers, go into the university level and help before you got into the classroom teachers. And yeah, Oh, I was like, I don't know that I can do that now. And so I'm not sure if you're listening live, if you've ever experienced that where you're like, this is what I thought I was going to do with my life and that's not what happened. So, um, I started realizing that I had had this amazing, amazing culture, what created that and what created the culture that was so difficult. And that's when I went into There's a way to make this different. There is a way to change this. And I started speaking around conflict resolution and then moving into understanding yourself and realizing those are components of really creating a great culture at work. And all of those components are needed to create a positive culture by embracing the complexity of all the people that you work with, Including yourself. So that's about me. That's what I do.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

I want my life to be a musical. So that's why Sally was singing earlier.

We share that. We share that characteristic, the random singing characteristic of us as Enneagram 7s, because along with all working with organizations to help them, uh, They're complex people. They're real, challenging human people thrive and flourish and find more joy in this work that we do. Work, even the word work, work, joy, these are, seem kind of opposites, but they're not. But they are not.

They are not.

That is where Jen comes in with her with her joy-filled necklace and says, "We can bring joy with us into work." And we are talking to, from an audience perspective, we are talking to a lot of leaders and entrepreneurs, changemakers of all stripes. So whether or not you are within an organization, we still show up and sit at our computer and go, OK, how am I going to approach this challenge or this obstacle or this, this task or this team, or we are all in the process of how do we bring ourselves into our work with more joy in whatever context. So, um, you are filled with so much wisdom. So I know you said you left teaching, but Jen you, you are still— you bring that with you, the spirit of you as an educator and your deep knowledge and wisdom and insight with you when you serve people out front. And so, um, I am— I always learn something from our conversations, even though, you know, I have been, uh, been the teacher for you for many years, but you also teach me. So I'm really excited to have you here. And here's where I would love to start. When people are not feeling joy at work, right, when they're just like, they're, they're facing whatever challenge it is, where, where do you start to, to figure out a new way? A new way?

Yeah.

I don't know, people get burned out, people are tired, people are disengaged, we're exhausted.

Yeah. So I want to back up a little bit. And, and because sometimes people conflate or mix up joy and happiness. And joy and happiness are two different things. I always think of happiness as the emotion, the fleeting energy that you feel— that is a feeling. That joy is a— happiness is a component of joy. But joy is more foundational and long-lasting. I have my own definition of joy because it is one of my core values as a, as a human and as a business owner. And I think of joy as this sustaining purpose that is an an overwhelming connection to something that is larger than yourself, something that is meaningful, and a sense of deep-rooted happiness that it is— I don't feel happy every moment of every day. Nobody does. And we're not designed to live that way. That is not— we're not designed to live in this kind of cotton candy, hot air balloon space, we are designed to be really rooted. So when I think of joy, joy has roots that go very deep. And the part that I am constantly reminding myself of is that roots are formed in the dark. And I don't love that, but that, that is the case of joy. So joy is very rooted. It is something that is connected, larger than yourself. And it is a sustainable space. So just to frame what we're talking about, how do I know I'm not feeling joy?

Okay, you said something and I want to underline it. You said joy, it's a sustaining, a sustaining idea. What did you say? You said it's a sustaining force.

It's a sustaining force. Yes. That's connecting you to something larger than yourself.

Guess what? Guess what I'm doing?

Tell me.

Banner! Look at you, banner!

I'm super impressed, Miss Producer.

Thank you.

Well done.

Thank you. If people have watched a few of these, they're like, wow, every, every week she gets just a little bit better. Hey, it's a little bit— that's how, that's how it works. We show up.

As a bravery expert, you show up anyway, right? That's what you taught.

That's what you teach. Give it a go. You gotta give it a go and let go of the ride. Life is just one big improv scene.

Mm-hmm.

Join a sustaining force with deep roots and roots are formed in the dark.

Ooh.

I know. Okay. As an Enneagram 7, guess what? I don't like that.

As a fellow Enneagram 7, and if you've not heard of the Enneagram, it's a personality framework. Sally and I both are the same personality type. Doesn't mean we're the same human, but we both share a deep avoidance of pain. Let's not do that.

So I really, yeah, yeah, I feel that. I feel that. Okay. So that's an important backdrop.

Yes. So back to your original question, because I don't want people to think I'm supposed to be happy all the time, or every moment of my work should be enjoyable. That is not an indicator of joy. Or some people, I love this phrase of protecting your peace. I think there is a component where we do need to protect ourselves from things that are harmful, and sometimes things that are just hurtful. But I think we run from discomfort because we equate the absence of discomfort with happiness or joy. And that's not true. The way we grow in any way, shape, or form will always involve discomfort. Absolutely every time. That's, you know, one of my favorite phrases is if you, you know, that concentric circle. So there's a circle in the middle, you know, with your, with your comfort zone. And then you've got it just outside your comfort zone. I call that the magic zone. That's where you grow. By definition, it is not comfortable. You know, I don't want to move you out into panic. But discomfort is OK. Where we know we're not experiencing joy at work, there are a few indicators. There's— I won't call them yet red flags, but maybe warning flags. There are a few that are waving red flags you should always jump for, you know, like, ooh, this is a problem. But one of my favorite quotes by a man named David Whyte, right, that says the cure for exhaustion isn't rest, it's wholeheartedness. So when you're exhausted, the way to wholeheartedness and the way to joy is alignment with purpose. It's alignment with why am I even doing this? So if you don't understand why you do what you do, you will always lack joy because purpose, we are designed as humans to understand purpose. I want my life to mean something. So if you are a CPA working inside what I assume are spreadsheets, because clearly not a CPA.

I like that.

Is that what Jim Whitmer does? Why do you do those numbers? Why do you help people with their accounting? What does that do for them? I, my bookkeeper Daniel is like a godsend to me. The amount of time that he spends making sure those numbers are accurate and right to keep me out of fraud, to keep me out of debt, to keep like, those are really important things to me. Um, and so you have to know why you're doing it. Uh, so exhaustion that doesn't feel good. Like, not the, I just spent my day doing something amazing, and that good exhaustion. Like, in the summertime, remember when you swam at the pool all day and you just like flopped in front of the movie in the air conditioner? That's good exhaustion, right? Exhaustion that you don't know how to recover from because you're like, what does this even matter? That's the bad exhaustion. That's not, that's not good. That is lacking purpose and wholeheartedness, right? Another red flag that you are not experiencing joy at work is this idea of I can't keep doing this, which is a component of exhaustion. But there is this, this languishing of I, I don't know how much longer I can keep going.

Yeah.

That is a— if you're asking that question, you're lacking some joy. That—

yeah, yeah, it—

you can't do it anymore.

Yeah. So is that how you would define languishing? Is that I can't keep doing this, sort of giving up a little bit.

Languishing is, um, is that idea of like, I don't think I can keep doing this. Whereas crisis is, you were— you've pushed over into the edge of like, you need help. Like, I, I— you need some, some real help. Crisis is something different. But languishing is like, I just don't think I can keep doing this anymore. Yeah, I don't see a way forward. I don't know how this is sustainable. I just can't keep doing this. That's a different place than just exhaustion. That's another, another red flag.

Okay, so some really important red flags there, right? A lack of purpose, a lack of connecting purpose to your work, feeling exhausted in a bad way, and getting to a point of languishing where you're like, I'm— I just— I can't keep doing this, right? Okay, so what does all of this— what does joy and and finding more purpose and joy in your work have to do with our personalities. And I know that this is a whole big thing, but, you know, we were just talking about being an Enneagram 7 and avoiding pain. And Mike's here.

Mike's like, yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Well, yeah. Yeah. As twos do.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So there's some, there's some Enneagram conversation happening around this and it's connected. So what's the connection you would make? There for us.

Yeah. So to talk about personality, personality is the way that you see the world. That's the easiest way to describe it. It's not everything that you do. It's not your behavior. It's not your habits. It's the way you see the world. It's, um, and the framework of the Enneagram shows us why we think, act, and feel that way. And so we're all avoiding something. Our personalities are trying to take care of us. They are really trying to protect us, make things go smoothly. And so we don't have to think about all this stuff. The problem is it uses shortcuts that usually end up getting us into trouble. And so when your personality is telling you to avoid pain, when actually we just talked about the idea of discomfort is the way forward into growth to get actually the joy that I want. That's how that connection is there. So for an Enneagram 2 who's listening, this idea of avoiding rejection, I don't want to be rejected. That would be the worst. The 2 has to recognize they have significance and they're worthy of their own needs in and of themselves. That, that's finding joy. For the 1, the Enneagram 1 is knowing, you know, they're avoiding being bad or wrong. And so they have to be perfect and finding joy in the fact that life is not perfect. So every time I'm saying something, each one of these types is like, but no, that's the worst thing. And so finding joy is actually reminding yourself of the truest part of you. Not letting your personality, as I like to say, be like Dwight driving the work bus, like, ah, out of control. You don't want your personality running that show. You get to say, actually, this is what is true, and that is the way to joy.

Mm. Yeah. So there's something really powerful underneath this, uh, which is when we can really show up fully as our authentic selves. And I always like to pull apart authenticity for people because when I work with speakers, they're like, well, I just want to be authentic about it. Sometimes what they're saying is, I just want to stay comfortable and I don't want to— if this is too hard or uncomfortable, it doesn't feel authentic to me. And actually, those two things are not at all connected. Totally. Sometimes the most authentic thing is the most uncomfortable thing. And so, you know, like disentangling those pieces together. So when we say like showing up fully, it means you're going to show up, um, with the deep dark roots of joy, not just, I'm fine. I'm fine. Yeah. Enneagram 7. It's fine.

We're just getting fine.

We're fine. We're fine. Like, what's our favorite phrase?

It's fine. It's fine. Or, well, at least.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Truth telling. Yes.

Love it.

Okay, so Jen, we have a few minutes left, and I know that you bring with you all kinds of resources. What do you think would be helpful for people if they are not feeling joy right now and they are really not— they're like, yeah, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not enjoying whatever, I'm not enjoying work right now. What's a great way to get started, to start to grapple with that and start to step into a place where you're changing your relationship with work, whatever that means for you?

Yeah, I think there's a, there's a, there's a couple things. Number one, you deserve joy. We deserve it. I, we live in a society that says joy is extra. Joy is just something you don't really need. It's just a nice to have. I, you know, it's fine. I'm fine. And we kind of brownie nudge, you know, you take a little bite of brownie and then you leave it in the pan and another bite of brownie, you leave it in the pan. You just kind of nudge into pain and discomfort and exhaustion. So start with the idea that you deserve joy. Full stop. You don't have to earn it. You, you deserve joy and you can have it. Secondly, joy is actually an incredible motivator in any workspace. So it actually turns into profit. So sometimes we have this idea that, well, we can get to joy when we've made this much money or we have this thing. Joy as a filter, as a way of doing business, actually creates the profits that you want. And then the way to get there is to start with back at that idea of purpose. All of this has to do with you leading yourself first. So you deserve joy. Joy is essential for a business, and you have to start with yourself. And that begins with really ruthless self-honesty. And radical self-compassion. You have to have both of those together. You need ruthless self-honesty and radical self-compassion. And when you can put those together, you can look at yourself very honestly. And I'm like, hmm, am I actually doing what I want to be doing? Am I actually operating in the way I want to operate? Am I like, um, I'll get to that later? Are you procrastinating? Like, what about you is showing up in that space? And then with radical self-compassion to say, okay, it's all right that I do that. Some— like, being a human is who we are. Those are— you have to have both of them together. So when you're looking at yourself honestly, you have to decide, what do I really want to do? What are my values? What, um, is the story I'm telling myself? You have to do the inner self-work first and then get the skills that you see. Like, in order to get what I want, because you can't go anywhere until you know what you want, Then what are the skills I need to get there? What kind of experience do I want to create? So those are the ways that I would suggest people start.

So starting, starting with yourself, instead of looking at like, OK, the organization is this, and this is the problem, and looking at, you know, outside forces to change your inner experience, we've got to start with how are we leading ourselves?

You are CEO of your own desk. You are CEO of your— you have to start with that. Even if you are like the, you know, you're an associate in your very first job, if you're an entrepreneur, you are absolutely the CEO of your own desk. So you've got to start with you. You're the only one you can control.

Oh, oh, it's so true. It's so true. So, um, we, we just have to show this because Erica, Erica Vitix, yes ma'am. Yes, ma'am. We've got an underline. Yes, ma'am there. And then of course, um, Mike, Mike Khan, who's still here. You deserve joy. Mic drop. Mic drop moment from Mike with the mic drop. Love it.

I like it.

Okay, beautiful. Uh, it's a hard truth that we always have to go back to ourselves. Okay, you're struggling with something, like going back to your own self-management, your own self. And that is the hardest work of leadership. Before we, uh, think about all of the other things, we've got to start there.

So even in that toxic work environment, I had to start with myself and figure out what was I contributing to that. Like, it— I was in a place where I was genuinely being— that was genuinely dysfunctional and that wasn't good, and I still had to start with me.

Yeah, yeah, there's— it's always, it's always more than just one thing. It's always more than just one thing, and it doesn't, it doesn't lessen the fact that that leader was a very unhealthy leader and, and having a really negative impact on your experience and other experience, other people's experience there.

Yeah, um, but because we're going to perpetuate that if we don't start with ourselves.

Oh, there it is, there it is. Because leaders are always becoming better leaders or becoming worse leaders. Honestly, that's, that's it right there. Oh my gosh. Okay, so Jen, we have a QR code up on the screen right now with a link to your freebies page. What's one of those freebies that you just want to tell us a little bit about to entice us to click that, um, link. Okay.

So if you've got a lot of good ones, so if you're interested in the Enneagram, uh, there, I have a guide called Why Do I Keep Doing This? And it's a short 6-page guide. It's not a full-on book. You don't have to read everything, but it's a quick guide into understanding what is the Enneagram, why does it matter, and the description of all 9 types. And it'll help you start that journey of understanding what is the Enneagram and my personality and how can I start to use that? Um, I think that's probably the best one. From this particular conversation that would be the most helpful for people. Also, my website is under construction, so I'm also like, what is on that page? It has to have that because it's always first. So just know that too, you know. Okay, well, we're vulnerable in sharing the things.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we're always working on something. It's so true. So, uh, Jen— you've all just met Jen. I would, I would love for you to check out all of her stuff. Go grab a freebie. But also, in particular, Jen does a really incredible job of leading through her social media. So Jen's Instagram is a— I'm always grabbing so many good nuggets of wisdom from that, plus fun little like cat delights. And you're hilarious. I don't know, there's, there's a blow-up unicorn.

Yes, I do have a blow-up unicorn.

Everyone's in a while, which is just amazing.

It's a costume. We're inside the unicorn, just so you know. You have— I don't have a separate blow-up unicorn. I become the unicorn. You become aware of what it is.

Amazing. So beautiful. Okay, Jen, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for everything that you give to all of us through the way in which you show up and serve. Uh, we all benefit and become better leaders more joy-filled leaders who are creating different results because of that.

And so grateful for you, and I'm grateful for you and all the permission that you have told me to have over the years. I appreciate it.

Ah, okay, that reminds me, before you go, we need to hear one thing that you are going to give yourself permission to do next. The next permission slip you are going to write for yourself.

What is the next one? I think the next permission slip is: after my therapy appointment today, I feel like I have things to do, but I am gonna go choose to work out and then show up to my evening event not necessarily put all together. I think that's what I'm gonna—

yes, yes, way to give yourself Permission.

I like it.

To not have your face.

There needs to be a theme song. There needs to be a song for the permission clip, like a jingle. How about this? I'll take it. Are we gonna dance?

And we end by dancing. Jen, thank you for coming here. Thank you for coming. Bye everybody.

Bye.

See you next week.