In this episode of the "This Moved Me" podcast, host Sally Koering Zimney walks listeners through Chapter 13 of her book Speaking Story, titled “The Power of Pathos.” She opens by sharing her background—early podcasting experience, a master’s focus on persuasion, and years of public speaking—to frame why she cares about the topic. Zimney then provides a concise primer on Aristotle’s three rhetorical appeals: logos (logic), ethos (credibility), and pathos (emotion). She critiques the over‑reliance on logos in business and politics, using John Kerry’s 2004 presidential campaign as an example of logical argument without emotional resonance. Ethos is described as valuable but subjective and easily rebutted. The core argument is that pathos is the engine of connection; authentic emotional appeal, when grounded in logic and credibility, moves audiences and gives stories “teeth.” She warns against manipulative uses of emotion—pathos without logical or ethical support—citing fake news and conspiracy theories as modern pitfalls. Zimney urges speakers to “speak lower,” tapping into gut‑level feelings rather than head‑level facts, and offers practical resources (Movers Roadmap, Power Pitching Push, Unspeaker Mini‑Course) and a call to join the Movers Collective for professional speaking development. The episode ends with a reminder to listen ad‑free on Audible and an invitation for listeners to reflect on what moves them.
Chapters
Actually, let's cut that because that is the next one, but mm-hmm. Well, hello and welcome back to This Moved Me, where we are walking through chapter by chapter my book, Speaking Story, and you get access to our audiobook here on your podcast feed or here on YouTube. And we're delighted that you are here with us. If you want the ad-free version of this minus some extra contextual goodies, you can always go grab that over on Audible. But while you're here, you get a little extra insider scoop on the making of the book, how I think this pertains to things just a little bit more because we have the space to do that, which is a total privilege, and I'm really, really excited. To be doing this and to be back in front of the microphone. Honestly, this is truly how I started growing my platform and my business was through a podcast. And when I did that, gosh, 2014, I think is when I started. I had a podcast before most people knew how to access them or were listening to them. It was honestly before I was listening to them. Now I love, I love podcasts. I always loved audio, kind of the art of audio. It just felt like the right form. And truth be told, I was also kind of hiding from video. A story for another time. But here we are on Chapter 13, and we're talking about the power of pathos. And this is where I'm gonna get a little theoretical with you. You may not know this about me, but I spent a few years getting my master's degree, and I was studying persuasion. Which is a really interesting thing to study. It was kind of this cross-section of studying politics and studying linguistics and narrative strategy, the role of narrative on how we understand each other, and specifically not in written form, but it was specifically about what happens when we hear each other. And when I was studying this, I had already lived a bit of some professional speaking life, and I had been in front of many, many audiences. And so I was drawing from experience and looking to understand why it is the way it is and be like, okay, I know that this works, but I don't always know why. So you get a little theoretical background in this story, which is fun, I think. And, but don't worry, as in this entire book, it's really short. It's a really short chapter. So I'm giving you like the cream of the very tippy tippy top. We don't dig in too much on this, but importantly, uh, what I really hope you walk away from in this chapter is that emotion is not the enemy of credibility. It is the engine of connection. And most speakers know that they need to get emotional if they want people to care. But there's, there's always a, a, a boundary and there should be boundaries. There should be boundaries. This is not a call to share all and share everything and, and just have no, no boundaries for context or what is appropriate, but especially when we talk about the business sector, we tend to really over-rely on logic, and we are undercutting the value of being an emotionally driven human, and we are emotionally driven. So this chapter is a defense of pathos, of feeling things out loud and letting your audience feel something too, because if you want to move them, You have to get them to feel. So let's dive in. Hey everybody, and welcome to This Moved Me, a podcast about creating talks that move the world. With me, your host, Sally Koering Zimney. This complimentary episode of the Speaking Story audiobook is brought to you in part by the Movers Collective. If you are listening to a book about speaking stories, I have a feeling you already know that you have a message worth sharing. Maybe you've been on a stage or two. Maybe it's still just a dream kind of sitting in your chest waiting. Either way, I want you to know that there's a real path from where you are right now to a speaking career that actually pays, one that fits your life, your message, and the change that you wanna make in the world. That path starts with two free resources I wanna give you. The first is the Movers Roadmap. This is a clear-eyed look at what it actually takes to build a career as a professional speaker. The second is an audio series that I recorded live, uh, and this developed with my own clients, and it's called the Power Pitching Push. And in this series, I walk you through exactly how to pitch yourself as a speaker so that you can get some gigs. You will get a real taste of what it's like to work with me. Both are free. Go grab them. Sally-z.com/path. Sally-z.com/path. And when you're ready to go all in, The Movers Collective is where we can take you from talented to professional. All right, now let's get into the show. Chapter 13: The Power of Pathos. Aim lower underneath the rational thought to where we can feel the same thing. Annette Simmons. In grad school, I got to study persuasion, which meant I also had to spend a lot of time thinking and learning about Aristotle and his three appeals. If you're not familiar with these appeals, let me give you a quick primer on logos, Ethos, and pathos. Logos is the logical appeal. Utilizing logos is about rational and logical thinking. It's all about left brain activity. Facts, statistics, and objective thinking all live in the realm of logos. And a lot of people hold tightly onto logos. We can't argue with facts, as long as those facts are really facts, but that's a diatribe for another time. Some people believe that logos is the only place where persuasion should happen. One of the tragedies of the progressive political approach is the belief that logic should be the way we persuade—and are persuaded. "Just stick to the facts, ma'am, and the rational mind will win out." Case in point: John Kerry. I was in grad school when he was running for president, studying his speeches and lamenting his lack of pathos. It was all intellectual debate. No wonder he didn't win. We didn't feel connected to him. It didn't matter that he was smarter or had a more complex and thorough approach to things. He leaned on his brain, and the brain can only get us so far. The result? John Kerry had people's respect, but not their passion or drive to advocate for and champion him. And he lost the race, obviously. The bottom line is: logos is an essential starting point, but it's not as powerful as people think it is. Ethos is the ethical appeal. Ethics is about who you are, what you believe, and the way you've organized your system of morality and right versus wrong. Some people use ethos as an operating mode when they're trying to persuade somebody, and it can be really effective. However, ethos is very personal and subjective, and I believe statement can be quickly rebutted with someone else's, "Yes, but I believe..." So yes, ethos is clarifying, but it's also limited. Then we get to pathos, or the emotional appeal. Think about the root for the word empathy. Pathos is feeling for someone else. Now, the realm of pathos has been disregarded forever. Aristotle looked at these three appeals and was like, "Yes, logical appeal is the highest form, ethics is also really important, and then poo-poo on the pathos." It's the lowest form of persuasion according to Aristotle. Okay, he didn't say poo-poo, but basically he was saying that emotion is for girls and girls are dumb. Oh, Aristotle. Now, I think we can all find examples where pathos is absolutely being used as a manipulative form of persuasion. Emotion without logic or ethos backing it up is truly dangerous and sadly rampant right now. Mm-hmm. Fake news. Not believing in science. Conspiracy theories. Much of that can be directly related to pathos gone wild without a logical check. Pathos without logic is called manipulation, and that is obviously not what I'm recommending here. But when we are in the realm of story, we are in the realm of pathos. Without pathos, logos and ethos are less effective. And sometimes don't have a chance. Pathos is essential if we really want to persuade people. It means speaking lower. Lower than logos, like Aristotle said, but also lower as in where it exists in your body. When we are talking about feeling, when we are talking about something from your gut instead of up in your head. We can only get so far when we speak from the head. So part of what I'm pushing you to do is to speak lower, to dig deeper. Like Annette Simmons said, you're going underneath rational thought to where we feel the same thing. And it is harder. We've got to dig deeper to find that place where we can connect on that level. That's where the big stuff happens. That's the kind of message or story that has teeth to it. That punches you in the face, in a good way, that reaches out from the speaker to the audience. That's what changes you. That is called connection. Pathos is how we move people. That's the end of this chapter of Speaking Story. If you want to keep listening ad-free, you can find the full audiobook on Audible, or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube. And if this chapter stirred something in you, if it, shall we say, moved you, let me suggest that you start with the Unspeaker Simple Storytelling audio mini-course at sally-zimney.com/unspeaker. All right, movers. This moved me. What is moving you? See you next time.
