272 - Best of 2025! Sam Parr’s Million-Dollar Journey

What was the name of your hot dog company in college?

Southern Sam's Wieners as Big as a Baby's Arm.

It's freaking amazing. And then you kind of just like rolled each one of these into the next thing. And obviously you sold in 2021 and had a nice exit reportedly for $27 million.

Depending on how you look at it, it was potentially a lot more.

Okay, so $50 million. Stop me when I hit it. $60, $150, $200. That's like $500 million, Sam. You got $500—

anyways, billions. Tampa is my company. It's a company that I tell people I want my grandkids to intern here. So I want to last for a long time. I'm a solopreneur in the sense that I own things that make money that require no one to work on them. But my skill set is building companies, you know, like my last company, The Hustle. It was run really well and I made a lot of mistakes and I could have ran it even better. But for a 27-year-old or however old I was when it was doing well, it was tight.

When was the last time that you thought to yourself, oh my gosh, I've become an out-of-touch a-hole?

I had to do the other day for the first time in like 3 years.

How often do you go into the office?

4 days a week, Monday through Thursday, and Friday I'll do stuff at home. And because it's summertime, I'll probably bail at like 3 o'clock.

What are your hours in the office?

Well, I would say between 9:30 and 5.

Oh, you're there all day?

Yeah, I think people misunderstand my life. Like, I'm like a working man. Like, I like do stuff. Like, I have one company, I have one job, I do that 40 hours a week. And I intend to do it for about 30 years.

I guess I wouldn't think that you have a job or that you're doing things where you need to be in an office. That's more my question. It's not that I don't think you're a working man, it's just like, why go to an office?

Because the troops are here. I don't know, like, I'm a much more boring person than most people actually.

Well, no, I mean, I think of you more of like a solopreneur, right? It's like, okay, you have the media company, you're making investments, you don't necessarily have a large team. So it makes sense to me when you say the troops are there.

I don't make investments. So I have like 25 full-time employees and I think that over the next handful of years we're going to have hundreds.

Is it like more of a family office? Like, are they working on all like a bunch of different projects?

No, this is why people get wrong. No, I own a business. It's a family business, right? Hampton. Hampton is my company and it's a company that I tell people I want my grandkids to intern here. I want it to last for a long time. But no, they have one job. I hire wonderful people. I give a lot of autonomy to them and I check in with them. But no, I'm, a solopreneur in the sense that I own things that make money that require no one to work on them. But my skillset is building companies. You know, like my last company, The Hustle, it was run really well. It was, I had an executive team and I made a lot of mistakes and I could have ran it even better. But for a 27-year-old or however old I was when it was doing well, it was tight. It was a tight org.

So I'll give you a little bit of my perspective. Healthcare's by my background. Bought, sold, started multiple companies. The last two big companies that I had was a $15 million home health company and about a $7 million medical billing company. And at its peak of all the companies we had, we were doing like $30 million a year. So not your size type companies, but they're good companies, right? And we had a good exit, but I had people on those teams that like will always work for me for the rest of my life that I just freaking loved. And so no matter what I do next, yes, they're a part of the team and they may be working on the thing that's the priority right there. but I also then have them working on, hey, we're getting credentialing for this physician on this other thing we're launching. Sarah, will you work on this? Or like, hey, Christie, we're trying to do this billing thing on this other thing. Could you go and like do some work over here with this team? So it's not that I'm thinking you don't have a team that you work with. I just didn't realize it was like, oh, they're just Hampton, 25 people, just Hampton. They don't do anything else.

Yeah, they're Hampton. Yeah, those people are just Hampton. But I mean, I guess there's a time and a place, like we're not. At The Phase in Hampton where I can deviate any focus. At The Hustle, one of my great points of pride, I think we had, I don't remember how many people we had, maybe 30 people when we sold the company, but like 15 of them are like millionaires or something, or in that ballpark because of businesses that they own. And I'm close with many of them, acquaintances with many of them. And I take a lot of pride in that because we found really good people and we train them and like, it, it's like a, I think we do a good job. Of running things.

I had an exit, made 7 figures, and I made some investments. Honestly, the hardest thing for me post-exit has been what do I do next? Not because there's not enough choice, but because there's too much choice.

Yeah.

And you're on a show where it's like every day, idea, idea, idea, talking to cool person, cool person. How the freak are you only doing one thing? Like, how are you only doing Hampton?

I would—

I'm in the position where I've got a bunch of different investments. I'm like the poor man's poor man version of Sampar.

People think that I have more. So first of all, most, nearly all of my money is just in Vanguard Index Fund. I had a CEO of my company and when I did, I had a little bit of free time and I made one or two weekend projects, one of them being like Sam's List, but that's not my, I don't work on that. I talked to her, I talked to her like weekly as like a friend or acquaintance, but Kimmy and I like meet quarterly. So like I spend no, virtually no time. She's the majority owner of the company. I gave it to her.

I love Kimmy, by the way.

Yeah, she's the best. And so like, I don't have any other stuff. Like I made this thing called Copy That. I made that before I started Hampton and it just like makes money every month.

But how, like, how do you have no other stuff? It just seems like you're getting bombarded with opportunities. How are you not like, I could throw 50 grand at that?

It's the other way around. I've talked to so many successful people. I know the patterns and I know that there are very few amount of people that can do a lot of different things. And succeed at a handful of them. In general, it is significantly better to focus on one thing for many decades. In general, I know that to be true. And so because I talk to all these successful people, it actually makes it significantly easier to focus. And I don't even angel invest that much, by the way. Like, I say no to just about everything.

So I'll push back a little bit on that. I think there's two types of focus. You've got Warren Buffett and you've got Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bezos is like, I'm doing Amazon. I'm only doing Amazon. I'm all in on Amazon all the time. And it was like, okay, he's all in on this one business. And then you've got Warren Buffett. He's got a ton of different businesses that he's invested in over the, over time, right? Totally different kinds of—

his business is investing.

That's the point I'm making, right? Like his business is investing in other businesses. So like his core skill set is one thing. He's like, I'm a capital allocator. That's the only thing that I'm going to focus on. So I do think though, sometimes people confuse those as you're like, well, I only got to have one business. Well, you could just be the greatest marketer in the world and that's your business is building, helping people build brands or products or like that's your agency. So there's like the spice of life kind of variety of things. So that's why when I look at you, I'm like, you have an amazing skill set, obviously, just like Liam Neeson. A very particular set of skills. And it's just interesting to me that you have the— I admire it because I don't have the self-discipline to do what you're doing.

It's not always discipline. I mean, a lot of it's fear. Like, I just want to succeed so badly that I refuse to deviate from like the one thing that I'm doing. I don't know how to explain it. I just, I just think that logically I know it's better to focus, and also I just don't have the— I mean, I guess I have the urge. Like, like I sold my, my company The Hustle that was my foundational life-changing thing. It wasn't that old. You could say it was a little like it was, I think we sold in year 5. I had been working on it originally. It was a conference that like kind of pivoted. If you think that is the beginning of it, then it was maybe 7 or 8 years old. And then I'm still on the podcast, which The Hustle owned. So in a weird way, I could be like, well, I've been working on it since 2014. So that's 11 years. I made a lot of the money early on, so I don't, always stick to what I'm saying. Like, I, I make the same mistake that I tell people not to make all the time, which is focus and do it for a long time, long period of time. Like, in general, I typically am not— I can't do two things at once.

Do you regret selling any of the businesses you sold?

I've only sold one business. I've only had one, one like really successful company, dude.

No, no, no, I was doing the research. There was a business, it was like small, it's like a $15,000 exit, right?

It was a roommate matching service. That was my company. It sold, and then I had to go start something new. And so that was the hustle. Do I regret selling? I wish so. No, not at all. I don't regret selling. Like getting, like I got paid like many years of annual earnings upfront. Like that's great. Also, what's great is when I started the business, I'd given equity to some people and that was actually a mistake because when you sell equity or give equity, you sort of have an obligation to get a return. So that was just the game I had signed up to play. I regret playing that game. But once I had signed up, I don't— you have to sell. I'm happy that I was able to secure like financial security, right? I sort of wish that I was able to own it forever, but I just— that wasn't the situation that I was in.

That's the point I was kind of getting at. Over the last year, I've gotten to this point where I made a lot of decisions based on fear in the past. The medical billing company that I had was a great company. It was netting like 1 to $2 million a year. But in 2021, I was like, Fed's going to start tightening, asset prices are going to come down. And I wasn't running that business on the day-to-day, so I was like, sell, let's get out of it. I'm scared of what's going to happen. And I look back, I wish I wouldn't have sold that business because it was a great business and it would have stayed consistent. And I look at my, let's say, portfolio of stocks that I've gotten in and out of, many of the companies that I've sold I regret because they're still great companies. And I, so I'm like trying to balance this How do you kind of get the security that you want, but then also realize life is long? Like, there's a lot of compounding that takes place.

You don't get both, that's for sure, right? But you— well, I guess you could. Like, a lot of the greats, the people who I admire, you know, I'm a big history buff. A lot of the greats who I admire, many of them were not cash rich until like their company was making billions of dollars. And so they would own a company that was Like for example, I was just hanging out with a buddy who bootstrapped a company. It's year 15 and it, it's making $150 million in revenue and it's killing it, whatever. He's on paper, that's probably worth $500 million and he owns it. So that's a lot of money. But he was like, I did, I didn't, I still don't feel financially secure because like I don't take significant income outta the business. And so like I bought a home for $4 million and I have $1 million to my name.

So video's cool, but I have what scientists call a face for radio. And so what's even cooler is long-form audio via my podcast and my newsletter, nickonomicspod.com. Go there for free, subscribe to my newsletter. It's one email per week, super tactical. And then go to my audio podcast. I do 3 to 5 episodes a week depending on how curious I am. And it's stuff like this. It's all free, no sleazy sales pitches, nickonomicspod.com.

And so, you're, you're wealthy equity-wise, but not cash-wise. And that actually feels not always the most secure thing. And so I think there's a balance. Like for me, I had a goal at a very young age, like age 21, where I want to be financially set at age 30. And if I can get that, I hypothesized, then the rest of life will feel easy and I'll have more fun and I could still create things. And that's what I'm doing. But yeah, you, you can't have both. And me selling at a young age, that meant that I got what I wanted, but I definitely closed the door of like potential upside. There's no doubt about that.

What's interesting, I always tell people this, is like, in my opinion, I agree with you 90%. Secure the bag and then you can— then you can play the long game or you can take a little bit more risk. For me, it was about taking risk off the table, and I'm grateful that I did it. There is still that part of me where it's like, man, that it's interesting that it didn't just fall apart after I sold it. Like, it's still there, it's still a business. Like, you have this like imposter syndrome thing and things are just going to collapse. But over time, as you get older, and I'm almost 40, I've just come to realize, like, the Lindy effect. Things last longer than, than you probably give them credit for. They can, at least for me.

Yeah, they definitely can.

I think you're the most relatable, successful person that I know of in the media landscape that, like, talks about business. You weren't like, oh, I was in Silicon Valley at the right time and I was employee number 10 of Facebook, or I was, I don't know, the guy who invented this marketplace. You've got this like compounding story. I mean, you started, what was the name of your hot dog company in college?

Southern Sam's Wieners, as big as a baby's arm.

It's freaking amazing. And then you like, you kind of just like rolled each one of these into the next thing. And obviously you sold in, in 2021 and had a nice exit reportedly for $27 million.

Depending on how you look at it, it was potentially a lot more.

Okay. So $50 million. Stop me when I hit it. $60?

I will never get there.

$150?

That's all you're going to get. That's all you're going to get.

$500 million, Sam? You got $500 million?

Anyways. Billion.

I don't know.

Who knows?

Billions?

Look, it, I acquired, I sold it for, uh, some cash, a good amount of cash. I got HubSpot equity that changed a lot while I owned it. And then also our MFM, the podcast took off. That, that has been good. So depending on how you look at the price of the deal, it was, it was, it was very good. I'm really happy with it.

Like, the reason I say most relatable is because, like, I think people could look at you and be like, okay, that's like a blueprint I could follow. I'm just, I'm compounding my learnings, I'm compounding my growth. What's been interesting, though, is you have a podcast called My First Million. Yeah. Got another podcast called MoneyWise. You ask people about money all the time. Chris, who I mentioned earlier, we like, sometimes we'll talk to each other and be like, why is Sam Parr so obsessed with money?

Yeah.

Why are you so obsessed with money?

I'm obsessed with manifesting. And I chose the world of business. I think that money equals freedom. I also think that like, when I was obsessed with track and field, which I still am, I wanted to know like the greats. I was like, show me the workouts that you did leading up to that. I wanted to know exactly what they did. And then I also wanted to know what were they doing at the age of 16, because I'm going to work backwards and achieve that. And I just think that that idea of working backwards and it's kind of addicting. I think that like when you see what's possible or how to do something, it becomes very contagious and it makes it easier to achieve. I think that like Jamaica is a very small country, but they absolutely dominate the 100-meter dash. Why? Or America dominates at like a variety of things. It's like, why are we so good at making movies? Why do we export culture? What, what is going on? And it's because you get a group of people and you put them physically in a similar space, or, and you teach each other how to do something, it becomes inevitable, or at least it feels inevitable. And it like removes this like self, this like issue, like it's this limiting belief. And so I'm obsessed with money because I like to find blueprints that I can just copy so I know what's possible.

There's lots of metrics though you could kind of use for success, and especially as you get older, or maybe you have your first exit and you're like, oh, okay, $10 million wasn't the mark actually that I'm happy with.

But I'm not just obsessed with money. Like, I read— like, right now I'm reading the biography of Barack Obama. I've read the biography of Ronald Reagan, George Bush Jr., George Bush Sr. Like, I read all types of people who achieve amazing things. I, and I always want to know how did they get there because I want to do something great and I just want to like know what's possible.

If you had a podcast interview with Barack Obama, tell me the odds that you would ask him what his net worth is.

Well, I don't care what his net worth is now, but really care why. Well, yeah, because it's, it's, he, his net worth is, is infinity, right? You have, when you have social capital, like you can do anything you want. But like what, to me, what would be more interesting is what you did the first 365 days leading up? What did you do the 180 days leading up deciding to run for president? And then the, the preceding, the, the post 365 days after that decision? Like, I would want to know like a week-by-week breakdown. That would fascinate me.

That would be super fascinating. I, I think what's, what's awesome about you is obviously you're insatiably curious and you've talked to a lot of people who are like 1% in their category. Whether they're athletes or entertainers or business people, etc. And like, just like you said, hey, what were the first, what were the first 52 weeks of your presidency like? Like, walk me through that.

No, I don't care about the presidency. I want to know, like, when you made the decision, like, who do you tell? Like, is there like an inbox that you email and be like, I officially declare, and then like, you know what I mean? Like, like, I'm like, dude, I literally want to know, like, what do you, like, what's that? Like, I would want to get really nitty-gritty on that. Or it's like, So like, you just start like knocking on doors. I don't know. Like, I would like—

who like onboards you for benefits when you become president of the United States?

Yeah. Like, I really just want to know these things because I just am obsessed with like manifesting. Like, like it doesn't matter if you're Picasso or you're the person who built this big skyscraper that I'm looking at. I've just always been intoxicated with the idea that the world around us, whether it's the person who made this microphone. Or whatever, they had a vision and they had an idea. And after a handful of years, we have somehow taken it for granted and accepted that it just has always been there. But they were able to kind of kick their dent in the world, even in the smallest way, by like making this microphone. And I just am obsessed with like, tell me how that happened. How did you stick out and stand out? And how did you like turn a vision into reality? I'm obsessed with that, whether it's like I said, track and field, becoming president, becoming an artist. It just so happens that I think that business and capitalism is likely the most practical way to like get that expressive kind of bit of freedom out into the world.

Okay, so you, you're an athlete, obviously you're in good shape. You know that you can't work out 24/7. You've got to sleep, you've got to eat, you've got to let your body recover, you've got to rest, right? But working out is obviously really important. I kind of equate the working out— maybe this is a bad analogy and you'll tell me I'm an idiot— I equate the working out piece as you going and talking to these people, like you're gathering knowledge, like you're doing the workout, you're doing the mental exercise. How do you then integrate it? Like, how do you then like digest it? Because you've got all these people you've spoken to, you've learned all of these things. Do you have a database that you like write your notes in? How do you actually take it from 'Cool, I learned this thing,' to 'I'm going to now implement this into my life.' Because you've got, you've got more ideas coming at you than probably 99% of people who've ever lived.

Yeah, I'm not looking for like— I guess I do a few things. Like, I, I spend a lot of time just thinking. So like, I'm in my office, I'm in like a room in a big office, and I've got like books all over my desk. I have like this thing called a 5-year journal where I write like how I'm feeling that day.

You actually read it. You're, you're not like using Claude or like, I'm a journal type. No, you're physically writing.

No, dude, I do so much stuff analog and by hand. So I guess what I do is I read a ton. I like reading a lot and I do it not because I think that it's helping me. I just do it because I just have so much fun doing it. And usually every 1 or 2 books, I'll get 1 interesting idea and I'll just spend hours just sitting here and I'll just think about it. So I, I think a ton, and then when I journal, I'll write out and reflect on the ideas that are in my head. And occasionally, like once a month or once a quarter, one of these ideas, I'm like, I can apply this in my life in some way.

What does that mean, you sit and think about it for hours? Are you like, you're sitting in a chair just staring at the wall, or like, are you— what are you doing?

Well, like right before this podcast, for the half an hour leading up to this podcast, yeah, I was just sitting I just sat with my head down and I'll just sit and think, or, and I'll have my pad. Yeah. And I'll have my pad and I was just sitting here writing. Yeah. I'll literally just sit and think or I'll go and walk. But like, I, I sometimes I really just spend a lot of time like thinking where I'll just be just sitting here like staring off. Yeah. I spend a lot of time doing that.

So we just moved. We have a house, we're on 3 acres. It's, it's amazing. And there's just like always something to do. We like, we have a landscaper who comes once a week, but I still probably spend 10 hours a week just in the yard because I enjoy it. For me, that's where I find the best thinking time is, like, yeah, physically out and about.

Movement creates emotion for— or like, you know, that's probably the best way to do it.

Why then do you do the sitting and thinking? Is it just convenience?

Because I want to, like— I'll like think, and then I'll think of something, and then I'll like write it down. I don't know, I just—

How long have you done this for? Like, have you always done this? Was, was your mom like, Sam, it's time for preschool, and you're like, Mom, please, I'm contemplating?

Like, I I've always been very in, like, yeah. So my wife, after work, she, we put the kid down and it'll, between like 8 and 9, like she'll know when I'm in like my mood where like she'll talk to me and I'll be like, I just mumble and she like knows like, that's like, don't bother you. But yeah, I literally will just sit there and I'm just like in my head and she'll know because I'll mumble, like you'll see my lips moving. Because I'm like asking myself a question and then I'm answering it. Like, my lips will move a little bit. It's very weird, bro.

You need more kids. You need more kids. If I sat down— we got 4 boys, you know, under 11, 11, 8, 5, and 3. If I sat down and was like, honey, I'm thinking, and the boys are like fighting each other, you know, there's a Nerf war going on, they're trying to eat dinner, someone's got a poopy diaper, and she's like, can you help? I'm like, I'm in the think zone. Sweetie, I'm sorry. Like, it just wouldn't— it just wouldn't work.

I— yeah, it's, it's weird. I'll just do it. Like, I, I take a lot of road trips, or I'll drive, but yeah, I'll just like kind of sit still for a long period of time and just think. It's— yeah, I guess it's weird now that I say it out loud.

Well, it's weird in the sense of like, not— nobody does that. Or like, people be like, they sit and think on their phone, or they're like, oh, I'm on Instagram.

No, it's kind of hard. I, I think that like Slack and Twitter has been kind almost a net negative because it makes it really challenging to like digest new information when you constantly have stuff coming at you.

So like for this interview and for interviews that I'm like personally really excited to learn from them more so than like, oh, this will be cool content for somebody. Like I'm just excited to learn about it. I won't, I won't go on social media for 24 hours. I'll just like sit and think with their story, maybe some of their podcasts that they've been on, or like research the business because I just like to let it marinate in the back of my mind and let that be there because then, then I have opportunity to sort of draw on that reservoir. So I do understand it from that perspective, but I feel like if I built that time in every single day, I feel lazy or I feel like I'm like not being productive if I were to sit for 30 minutes and like, that's it. That's, that's a me problem, right? But did you ever feel that way?

Yeah, I mean, I feel this way all the time, but basically like I'm at the point in my career where like I'm a knowledge worker. Like I, I come up with like ideas or I come up with an opinion and I just say that and I don't always do the work. So I do do the work like when I'm first starting, like in order to get Hampton to like 7 figures in revenue, it was just me and my partner Joe and I did, we did 100% of everything. But at You know, with a lot of stuff, my money comes from just coming up with like insights and kind of talking about it. So like, I'm very fortunate I'm in that situation.

I definitely get that perspective. That's kind of how I use AI, frankly. It's helping me work through things.

So like, but like, by the way, I can't do anything. Like, for example, like we're building the software inside of our company and like, I just like draw it out on a piece of paper and I send it to our tech team and I'm like, what do you think about this? Like, I can't actually make anything.

Can you do anything at home? Can you, like, repair stuff? And, like, are you a man? You, like, fix a car?

Yeah. Like, one of my hobbies is, like, taking apart motorcycles and putting them together.

Gosh, F you, dude. You're rich, you're good looking, you're healthy, and you, like, know how to do manly things. Screw you, man.

This is— Well, the way that I describe it to people is I'm— I can go really high. Like, I can hang out with, like, a billionaire and, like, get along with them and work with them. But, or I can go really low, like I can go hang out with like hoodlums on the street and like get along. Like for example, this Saturday I was at the skate park for like 3 hours, not 3 hours, like an hour and a half. And just hanging out with like the homeboys, like guys I don't even know, just like, you know, street guys. And I have so much joy doing it. And so I feel comfortable being on different spectrums.

I heard this incredible story. I was listening to the Joe Rogan podcast with Bill Murray. And Bill Murray was telling, he's like, yeah, I was driving Lorne Michaels Volkswagen across the country. And I just was hanging out and I stopped in Aspen and I go to the lodge and I meet this guy at the bar. And for like 2 days, we're just hanging out and he tells this like whole story. They're just getting into, you know, hoodrat stuff. And, uh, and Joe's like, did you know who this guy was? He's like, no. And then he didn't know my name either. I don't think he knew who I was. They just like connected. They were just having fun. And it turns out the guy was, do you know who Hunter S. Thompson is?

Oh, was it really?

Yeah. And so Bill Murray and Hunter S. Thompson became like lifelong friends after that. Now Hunter S. Thompson's a little older and he was an investigative journalist. Like anyways, he was, he was top notch, but these two guys connected not because it was like, oh, you're a movie star. Oh, and you're a journalist.

Cool.

We're both successful. They were just like at a bar and started chopping about it.

You know, that's how I know Tim Ferriss.

No way.

Yeah. Tim Ferriss and I used to go to the park and walk our dogs. Like, and he, maybe he knew my first name, maybe not even, but we would like, we were like dog walking acquaintances. Really? And yeah, we were just talking about dogs and like the neighborhood. We were like, he didn't know who I was, but of course I knew who he was, but I was, I didn't want to like blow his cover. I wanted to make him feel comfortable. And then after doing this for a handful of weeks or months, she cold emailed me, asked about newsletters and asked if you could get dinner. And I was like, yeah, yeah, let's get dinner. And I show up to dinner. He's like, oh wait, you're that guy.

That's so good. Hey, I don't know if you remember this, but when we started this podcast, we entered into a social contract. I would spend time, energy, and money producing this podcast, interviewing these individuals and giving you insights into how to build, buy, start, grow your business. And you would like, subscribe, and leave me a 5-star review. Now, out of that, we both get to talk to really cool people and hear really cool insights. We both get a ton of value, but I just want to help you keep your word. So would you do me a favor? Will you go leave a 5-star review for me on Apple or Spotify? It would really help. And if you want, even share this with a friend. So I grew up one of 9 kids, obviously, because I'm Mormon. My oldest brother, his name is Ian Puente. He's a half-brother. I have another brother who's a half-brother. My oldest sister is half-Chinese. I had a twin sister who was severely developmentally delayed. And then my two youngest sisters are actually my cousins. We adopted them because my aunt was a drug addict. So like, my family is super close. Oh, and my dad is an immigrant. He grew up in Brazil, but he's full-blooded Ukrainian. He was a professional soccer player. Tons of Latin American friends.

It sounds like the UN, man. You had a very, uh, it was amazing.

Like, tell me an accent, I'll do it.

Were you like negotiating like treaties and stuff like that in your household?

That sounds pretty much. Pretty much. And I was the middle child, so I was the, you know, the, the problem solver. But yeah, I was like, Nikolai, where is your sister Natasha? I don't, I don't know. She's with, with Ian, my Mexican brother. Anyways, I've always felt like I could connect with almost anybody because of that, except for very, very wealthy people who were like, yes, we took the yacht out this weekend and went to St. Martha's Vineyard. And like, I still can connect with them, but there's just like, you have a life experience where I feel like I can connect with 95% of people, and it, it makes life way more enjoyable.

It's very strange. I think there's only like 2,000 or 3,000 or maybe 4,000 billionaires on Earth. On MFN, we've had like 4% of them on the podcast. And so I've been like crazy fortunate to like meet these people who are like tip-top of their game. The majority, but not all, the majority of, of self-made entrepreneurial billionaires are fairly not like you're describing. Or maybe they do live that fancy life. Many of them do. They can snap out of it like pretty quickly. Like you could be like, dude, like get the leftovers and don't throw away the food at the restaurant. And like, I've done that before. And like, and they're like, yeah, that's a good idea. What are we, what are we crazy? We can't. And so, but like the kids or the grandkids are definitely.

So my brother-in-law, he's going to be a billionaire. He's just, he's, he's got a healthcare company, $500 million that he's grown in 7 years. It's growing like crazy. And luckily I've known him for 20 years, but like well before he became What he is now. And we're still like, hey man, I got to get a colonoscopy and I need a colon cleanse. You want to take me to Taco Bell real quick? And we're like, oh yeah, sure. Let's, let's, let's ride to Taco Bell. Let's get a Baja Blast while we're there. But it is that like second generation.

You're like, mm. So it's like the worst thing ever. Just how disrespectful to his doctor the next day that you're just going to like Taco Bell.

I hope you never have to get a colonoscopy before you're 50. Okay. That's all I'm going to say to you. I have to get them regularly. Unfortunately, my sister died of colon cancer, so it's It's like, they're like, okay, starting at 35 every, every year, let's stick. And the nurses, like, when did all the nurses just get super young in these colonoscopy clinics? They're all like 25-year-old new grads. I'm like, okay, I guess I'm just supposed to get naked and excited.

I can't. Yeah, I don't know. I can't speak to that. You could have that one.

I kind of feel like you hit on something there. I kind of feel like My First Million has become My First $10 Million, or almost like My First Billion. I think it's because it's a, it's a function of you wanting to talk to like really interesting people, and it just so happens to be that the more well-known your podcast has become, the more access.

No, it's not more access. We get a lot of criticism for that, and I will happily take that criticism because when we started the podcast, both of us were still kind of up and coming, and I don't care about making My first million, I care about money a lot less nowadays than people think, but I care about, like I said, like steps that one takes to like achieve potential. But I definitely am more interested if I were to talk about money, it's more like, all right, tell me like about $100 million or, or hundreds or billions. Like that's definitely a little bit more where I'm trying to go.

Because that's a game you haven't played yet. Like that's the part you're curious about.

Yeah, like I'm on my way and I want to, I want to like learn about that stuff, but also I think life is a lot richer than just money. And so I actually tend to care about many non-money things that MFM didn't used to discuss that now we do.

So the adjective you used to describe money is richer.

No, I just—

funny. No, no, no. It was just, it was funny.

It was funny. I used that for—

richer without money.

No, I didn't say, I said life's richer than just money. And so like, you know, I like the idea of like, how do I make a rich life? Well, it's not— money's only one of a handful of parts to it. And so sometimes I'm interested in those other parts.

Let me ask you this question. When was the last time that you thought to— that you were complaining about something that you thought to yourself, oh my gosh, I've become an out-of-touch a-hole?

I had to do laundry the other day for the first time in like 3 years. Really? Freaking hate folding my clothes. That's like a chore that I cannot stand, and I had to do it the other day and I hated it.

All right, let me flip it the other way. After talking to so many successful people and having experienced success yourself, what's something that you might have viewed as an indulgence when you were younger that most successful people do that now, knowing what you know now, even if you were poor again, you would still indulge on that? Does that make sense what I'm asking?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Having, hiring service people around the house. I think that, yeah, like cleaners, handymen, people to do my laundry, people to cook, things like that. I think that, you know, you probably only need to spend anywhere from $1,000 to $2,000 per month to make your life like 3 times easier and more convenient. You know, I remember as a, however old I was when I was making, let's say $100,000 a year, I like dreaded laundry, I dreaded cooking, and so I would kind of eat poorly and get fat. And looking back, had I just spent roughly $1,000 per month, my life would have been a lot better and more convenient, and I would have been able to spend money on the things that I hated. And I hate doing those things.

So for you, what would that $1,000 have been spent on?

You know, like right now I order these meals called Eat Clean Bro, so I like those. And then also that's what it's called. And then having someone come just picking up, like, come on, picking up my laundry, doing it and bringing it back. Like, it's that simple. And then I was too cheap to do it. And I don't know why. And like, people are like in awe, like that. I, I'm like, well, I don't do laundry and I don't cook. And they're like, oh, that's like a rich guy thing. I'm like, no, like you can do that for—

no, that's a me thing.

That's like, you could spend $1,000 a month. Like, you don't, if that's your thing, you don't, you can cut back on other things and indulge on that thing. And it all depends on what your money dials are, you know, and that, That's my dial.

When did you get okay with that? Because obviously back then you weren't okay with it, but like, when did you realize?

My financial situation was interesting. I, I paid myself very little when I ran my company, so I was cash poor, which was a huge mistake. I wouldn't suggest doing that. It's like, because my business was making money and I should have paid myself more. And then the last year I paid myself a lot. And then also my wife worked, was an early-ish employee at Airbnb, and she crushed it. Because of an IPO of Airbnb. And then like 2 months later, my company sold, and that was like life-changing overnight. So that was like, it took me about 2 years to get used to what that felt like, because I went very quickly from like making $50,000 a year to, you know, not a lot more. And it took probably 2 years to get used to it. Maybe, maybe honestly it took 4 years.

What did you think your superpowers were back then? And like, what do you think they are now?

Back then was tenacity. I was a dog. Like if I was gonna, if I had my mind set on something, I was going to get, get it or get close. I would work really hard. I would think really hard and I'd be laser focused on that goal. So tenacity. My, my superpower now, I have like a pretty insatiable appetite for information. Like I, I just can't stop reading and learning. Like, I'm incredibly curious. Like, the most used app on my phone is Wikipedia. Like, I'm just on Wikipedia all day. I just cannot— I just, I love learning. I love history. I just love consuming information and learning about how things used to get done so I can hopefully predict the future.

Have you not started using like ChatGPT's voice mode where you can actually interact with it, ask it questions, have it give you answers?

The other day, me and ChatGPT just had a huge conversation on the origins of World War II. Like, it's amazing. Like, yeah, like I'll have long conversations with it.

Dude, my son, my son, he's 11 now and he'll be like, hey dad, who was the first emperor of Rome? I'll be like, I don't know. And we'll like be on a car drive. And then for the next 30 minutes, we just have ChatGPT up and we're just asking it questions. It's like, oh, well then what happened to him? Where did Caesar come from? Oh, I didn't know that Tsar in Russia is from Caesar and Kaiser in Germany is from Caesar. Like, you're like, whoa, all these things are connected. It's been actually really cool. This sounds so stupid.

There's basically two guys on earth. Uh, you know, there's guys who are interested in the Roman Empire and guys who are interested in World War II. I'm more of a World War II guy, but I understand the Roman Empire sentiment.

It's interesting you didn't say the ability to connect with people as a superpower.

Uh, I'm a little bit of an autist, man. Like, I don't really connect with people that well. I like spending a lot of time by myself. We have a joke in my household. We say no new friends. Like, I don't really want to, like, like, I don't want that many group buddies.

Oh my gosh.

I like solitude.

Let me paint the other side of the argument here. Can you tell me about your Airbnb experience?

The one where I got fired? Yeah. In 2007. No, sorry. I don't remember. Maybe 2010. So I was a track and field runner in college. And in 2010, I think it was one of the most famous milers, a guy who ran the mile. Named Chris Lukasik retired from running and joined a company called Air Bed and Breakfast. And I was like, what the heck? What's that about? That sounds so interesting. Well, how'd this, this guy retired at this peak? And so that's what I learned about Airbnb and I'd followed them forever. And then when I was a senior in college, I was like, all right, now's the time. I could email Brian and Joe, the, the founders, and I can impress them. And I did. And they weren't impressed by what I told them. They were just impressed that I had the courage to follow up a ton and write a coherent email, whatever. And they were like, if you're in the Bay Area, come to my office on Monday. Of course, I was not in the Bay Area. I didn't know what the Bay Area even meant. I thought that meant LA. I was living in Tennessee at the time. Chesapeake Bay? Bay Area? Yeah, I didn't know. I thought that— I was like, is that San Diego? San Diego? Like, I literally had to Google, like, what is that? And I had never been, like, west of, like, Colorado, probably. And so I flew out there the next day and I interviewed with them and I got the job. I left school and I moved out there, but around this same era, I was going through some stuff. You know, I, I, I got a little of some demons in me a little bit and I had gotten arrested. I got arrested for fighting. I got arrested for DUI. Basically it all stemmed from drugs and alcohol, alcohol. And I thought I was pulling a fast one because on the On the application, it said something like, have you been convicted of a misdemeanor? And at that time I was actually, my court date was scheduled for a later period. And I was like, well, technically I've not been convicted yet. It was some type of like gray area, but like, it was still like I was lying. Yeah. You knew you were lying, but it was also like, well, I mean, technically I thought I could argue my way around it, but basically that I moved out to San Francisco and everything. And the day before I was supposed to start, they were like, You know, you lied, so don't show up. You don't have the, the job. And so I never actually got a job there. And then years later, my wife started working there and I used to joke that it was like my alma mater and like my old stomping grounds, but I never actually, I never actually worked there. And years later, a handful of months ago, I got to hang out with Joe, the, the founder, and he, he remembered the, the, the, the thing. And so it, it worked out.

I've been curious though, like, was it 'Hey, piece of crap, you lied. No, you can't work here.' Or was it like, 'Dude, Sam, we like you, but come on, man.' It was the second one.

They were very— they were respectful, and like, I agree with their decision. They were 100% correct. So it was all love. Like, it was— it was on me. I'm the one who made the mistake.

But did you stay in touch with— obviously not Joe, but like the hiring manager?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, it was all good. They were in the right, I was in the wrong. There was no one to blame but me.

So what I thought was interesting from that story is like, it brings you out to San Francisco and then obviously there's a lot of series of events, but you started this thing called The Hustle. You had HustleCon.

And I was going to go to SF anyway. Like I had been Googling like, where do internet companies start and stuff like that.

Like I just didn't know it was the Bay.

I didn't understand like any, like I just thought San Francisco just meant on the other side. And I wasn't sure if like, I didn't quite understand.

So good.

And, but I knew I was like, I'm, I was plotting. Like, I remember I was like, I'm going to contact Uber. I'm going to contact the, like, I'm getting out there. There is some way in which I will be there. And yeah, I made it happen.

From that, I just find it interesting. Like I said, you, you had the hustle, you had HustleCon. It seems like you've always been able to build networks where you've played a connector role. And then you've also used those networks. Leverage to identify kind of trends or like, hey, this is kind of the way that things are moving in the future. And you, I mean, you may not feel like you're a people person, but you're so freaking likable and you're relatable and like you talk about your failures openly and there's something very endearing about that. You wouldn't have been able to build these networks without the ability to get people to trust you and like you. Does that make sense what I'm saying? So like for me, it's, it's interesting to hear you say like, I'm not really great with people when It feels like that was sort of the impetus, or at least the thing that got the snowball rolling.

Yeah, I think that, like, I remember being a kid and, like, I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. We call it Italian. I grew up with the Italians in St. Louis, and I was, like, the only non-Italian. And, and, but, like, the funny thing about Italians is they love restaurants, and, like, everyone owns a freaking restaurant. And I remember, like, as a kid going to the restaurant and, like, the owner of the restaurant— sometimes you wouldn't know who they were, but you just saw this guy walking around putting his hand on people's back, being like, how are you? How's everything? Everything good? And they like had the best energy and everyone like gravitated to them. And I was like, I'm going to steal that. I'm going to have that wherever I go, where I'm just going to act like, you know, I'm like the guy in charge somehow. And so when I lived in San Francisco, but even before that, I remember I lived in Sydney, Australia for a little while. Whenever I would go to the new place, I just was like, if I can do the work of organizing people around something, I will eventually become the node or become like the center of it. And it will pay dividends. And so right when I moved out to San Francisco, I started a book club called The Anti-MBA, and that took off. That was like, it wasn't like a business. I mean, I spent money on it. I didn't make any money, but like, I met so many amazing people. I learned early on that if I just become the center, I will benefit some way. And it didn't, it's not that hard to be the center. You just have to do work. You just have to like organize. And so that was like really important to me, but also like I was like a pretty goofy kid, like in high school. And like, I wanted to meet girls and like, I wanted like guys to like me, like my friend, I wanted to be like accepted. So I was always like, I just organize people then like girls will like me because they'll think I have power and guys will like rely on me because like I'm the one doing the work. So like, great. I got built-in friends and maybe I'll meet a girlfriend. So I was like really wanting like acceptance.

I really love getting to know people and organizing things, but for me, it's, it's been more selfish of like, I just really enjoy it and I don't want to feel left out. But what I've noticed is it totally increases your surface area of luck. Like, you and I wouldn't be talking if, like, Kimmy and I hadn't connected, right? I didn't know she was a part of Sam List or whatever, but just the more people that you know and the more you put yourself out there, the more opportunity kind of comes to you over time. I'm not going to say that you put out to the universe. I'm not going to say it, but it does apply here.

Yeah, I agree. I think when I remember being in, like, 6th grade, I read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People because I was, like, desperate to, like, Oh my gosh, you're like the oldest soul who in 6th grade reads freaking How to Win Friends and Influence People. A guy who's desperate to fit in, that's who. And so I've been— and I've also like, I've just always been obsessed with personalities. I've always been obsessed with the person who's brave enough to not fit in and been obsessed with like how that person attracts a following and gets other people to do stuff. That's just like Like I remember as a kid, I'm like, isn't it crazy that the president, that this institution of America is just like a group of people who are like collectively buy into this? Like, that's so strange to me and that's so fascinating and cool. I want to, I wanna do that. And so I just was always interested in personality and what I learned early on was people were drawn to my curiosity. And so if I do, if I make my curiosity like public, or as like a spectacle for others. I just get to do what I enjoy and also it attracts other people. There's that saying that like you'll help someone, like if you see a guy holding his thumb out with a flat tire versus a guy like pushing his car, like you're more likely to help the guy pushing the car. And so I was like, okay, I'm just gonna like push the car in front of everyone all the time.

Here's my last like serious question and then I have just a couple rapid fire questions. What is your favorite way to see the signal through the noise? Like, because Trends obviously was a company that you had, but you're still connected to a lot of people. You see things early. You probably get a lot of opportunities. You make decisions to not invest in things or to— like Hampton, you're like, I'm going all in Hampton. Like, how do you look at things that are coming down the pipe that the general population may not be seeing right now? And where do you find them?

So generally speaking, hype is just hype. And the things that become popular in 10 years are the things that are not in the newspaper, or if they are, they're on the hypothetical back pages. So for example, Bitcoin wasn't talked about in the news early on. It was with a bunch of freaks on a forum. And so, but like the things that were popular, like, like the things that were hyping, they like tend to be fads. Not trends, because the thing that the weirdos are doing in their hobby, like as a hobby, that tends to be the stuff that actually tends to like become a thing in 10 years. And so I've always, we used to have a saying at my, at The Hustle where our company was where you let the freak flag fly, meaning you can be like a weirdo and like, I will accept you because I love. Of weirdos and oddballs. And so I just am constantly seeking them, seeking them out, and I just will be relentless on pursuing them. So I'll give you an example. You know who Isaac French is? Yeah, Isaac French is a very successful guy. He's very young. I don't know how old he is, probably late 20s, at this mid-20s. So I found Isaac— someone had told me about this guy who had an Airbnb that was interesting, but I randomly, at the same time, like, it all kind of worked out where I saw like his page for like his bed and breakfast and his about page said, I am an accountant. I am an Airbnb owner, but I really view myself as an artist because I love painting more than anything. And I was like, what? This freaking guy, this is— what did he just say? I've never heard anyone say that in my life. You're an accountant. But also an artist, huh? And I called him, I just called him. I go, hi Isaac, my name's Sam. He had no idea who I was. I was like, your about page was incredibly fascinating. What's your story? And at the end of that phone call, I was like, I'm going to Idaho next week. Do you want to come with me? By the way, you should get a Twitter page because I'm going to write about you and I think you're going to get popular. And Isaac who many people listening know, he had no social media at that time. So Isaac is part of this religion called American Heritage, which I jokingly call him a Mennonite because if you don't know anything about that religion, they're kind of like Mennonite-y. And when he told me all these things, I was like, oh, you're a freak. I love you. Let's become best friends. And that's sort of like what I've done many times. Like I'll meet someone and they're just an absolute strange person. Or they have this weird combination of hobbies or interests that just— I've never met anyone like it. And whenever I meet people like that, I'm immediately drawn to them. Like, I'll give an example. We— another example we have— I met this guy named Cliff. Cliff wanted to come to The Hustle's office because he wanted to learn about— I don't even know why he wanted to. When he came to the office, I was like, so what's interesting about you? He's like, I can do a backflip. And I was like, what? He goes, I can backflip really good. I go, do it right now. And in the middle, and in the middle of my office, he did a backflip. Like, it was so such a weird interaction. And now Cliff— so Cliff has a company that does 9 figures a year in revenue. It's called Speechify.

That's awesome. I have Speechify. I love Speechify. Sorry.

Yeah. So Cliff is just an example where he was 21 and he had the audacity to backflip in my office. And I was like, it just, it went off again. You're a freak. I love you, I want to follow you. And like, it was— it's always been like a really good indicator of like, is someone going to outperform, is if they're like incredibly odd.

It's like that scene in Step Brothers where they're like, what's your favorite dinosaur? Velociraptor.

What?

Did we just become best friends?

Yeah, like if I could meet someone who like does weird shit. Like, here's a weird thing about me. On my feet and on my legs, I have a bunch of homemade tattoos. I just read that it, like, you could give yourself a tattoo with a sewing needle, and I found that to be incredibly fascinating. If I meet someone that has another stick and poke homemade tattoo, I'm like, oh, you're very strange like me. Tell me everything about you. And like, you could just find all these like weird stories when someone has one or two odd or off things about them.

Dude, I love that. I'm gonna end with some rapid-fire questions for you. My First Million guests, who has been your favorite guest?

Rob Dyrdek. I've become friendly with him. He was pretty amazing.

Was it the episode or was it the relationship you developed with him afterwards?

The episode. He's a, he's a very unique human being. Jesse Itzler is pretty amazing. Jesse Itzler is one of the very few people who I admire all facets of his life.

Which guest do you think your 80-year-old self would be most proud of if you had a life most similar to? And you might have just answered it with that previous.

I can give it Laird Hamilton, I think.

Really?

Why? Yeah. Laird Hamilton was the perfect amount of stubborn. I think that he has his values and he does not bend. And I think that he has the values that I love.

What are the characteristics that you've seen across the successful people that you've interviewed that surprised you as being a commonality?

Most of them do not have a significantly higher or lower IQ than I do. And I would say that I'm like a 75 to 80 percentile smart person. Like they oftentimes I'll meet someone who's 1,000 times more successful than I am, but they were, we have the same intelligence. We have similar characteristics other than they knew what they were trying to do and they got after it. There's not like financial situations that are significantly different. There's not, They're still afraid. They have insecurities. Like there's just not that much difference. And the only difference being they said, this is where I'm going to go and I'm going to pursue it in spite of being fearful and having all these other issues.

Well, and there's like, there's a thing where you have to be a certain level of smart and it's kind of like table stakes, but everything past that, it's kind of just nice to have.

There's like a handful of people that are genuinely like their oven burns hotter. Like I can never keep up with them. So like Dharmesh is one of them. Max, the guy who started Grammarly, like when I, when I'm around them, I'm like, well, you just, I will never compete with you in terms of like raw IQ. You are just significantly smarter than me. But there's many, many, many other people that are as rich and wealthy and they're just more tenacious.

Well, do you think that like they have one attribute that is off the charts? Like, okay, baseline level of intelligence is whatever.

Stubbornness, usually a lot of stubbornness.

Really?

Yeah. Yeah. And like disagree. They're disagreeable.

Okay. Here's one that I like. Which of your guests, by the way, these are all real questions. This is not ChatGPT. Which of your guests, if you had to put your money in for the rest of your life, just like, all right, here's all my money. I'm betting on you. Who would you pick?

Like a young person? Like who? Like if they.

I mean, I guess relatively young-ish. You're not putting in Warren Buffett at this point.

If I had to like give like a less obvious answer, I've done 800 or 700 episodes, I don't remember all the guests, but like a pretty young person who I think like I would get like an amazing return if they just control my net worth would be Austin Reef.

Tell me more. Why?

He makes wise decisions. I think he's got the perfect amount of aggressiveness and conservative like attitude. Like he, is conservative, conservative, conservative, and then he sees it's working and then he goes all in. And I think that that is a winning combination.

That's interesting, man. Now I really want to talk to Austin Reef. Does it have anything to do with the space that he's in? I mean, he's in media as well, or is it— it's him?

No, he'll have the same outcome regardless. I mean, you put him in a bad situation, it'll be good— a good outcome. If you put him in a great situation, it's going to be a world-class outcome. Like, it's almost always going to be a winning situation. It's just the magnitude matters.

Marc Andreessen has this quote about Sam Altmore. It's like, if I—

if we left everybody on a desert island and I came back in a year—

or is it Paul Graham? Sorry. And I came back in a year, like, he'd be Lord of the Flies. Is it like— is that Austin?

No, Austin, Austin, he is pretty mild-mannered, so I don't think that he's going to like lead a bunch of savages, but he'll get a good return. He just makes very good decisions. I think most people like myself I, I'm, I'm ruled by my emotions, which is a pro and a con.

Yeah.

He has a good combination where he'll be like, my emotions say this, my rational side says this, which one should I listen to? Like, he does a very good job of like being rational and emotional. I tend to be a lot more emotional. And, but to be great, you need both.

The first part of that, you like triggered something in my mind. Who, who do you think has the most potential upside? Of people that you've interviewed? They can be young, right? Like it could be Isaac French for all—

No, Isaac French is too happy. The problem with Isaac is that he's like emotionally content. He seems like a very happy person. He's going to be incredibly successful. I'm just joking. Do you know Wade Foster?

No.

Wade Foster started Zapier.

Oh yeah.

Wade lives in Jefferson, Jeff City, Missouri, which is— I'm from St. Louis, Missouri, and St. Louis is nothing. Jefferson City is definitely not happening. I think there's a world where Wade becomes like worth many, many tens of billions of dollars. He's probably already worth $3 or $4 billion.

Wow.

I would think, I don't know what Zapier's This is all just public information. So whatever Zapier is worth, I think they've mostly bootstrapped. And so, you know, whatever that is, but that guy reminded me a lot of Dharmesh. So Dharmesh is the CTO of HubSpot and a multi-billionaire. And I can't say all of Dharmesh's stories because a lot of them have been off the record. That guy makes money. His hobbies make stupid, like little side things that he has done. Has made so much money. And the reason is, is because he's got this weird combination of competitiveness, but also like he's a hacker. Like he, like everything's a game to him and is, and is a hobby. And typically people who are like incredibly successful, one attribute many of them have is they, they're gamers. Like not like just video games, but board games, whatever. Wade Foster has that attitude to me where he wants to win, but not at the point of he's going to bend on integrity. And he also seems, he seems like someone who loves games. Like, if you taught him a board game, he would like study it at night.

Dude, that's why so many Mormons are successful in business. Settlers of Catan. You bust a Settlers of Catan out at a Mormon party, gloves are off, bro.

They're gonna be saying, hey, frick, that'd be a problem. And drinking tons of Dutch Bros and tons of Dutch Bros. And other soda.

This was awesome. I appreciate you taking time. I want to be respectful to your time.

All right. God bless America. See you.

All right. Hopefully you like that episode. And if you've made it this far, you're either really committed or you're stuck doing yard work and you can't actually skip on your phone. So while I have you, the show is growing, but I have a favor to ask of you. Will you please help me grow the show? I want to reach more people. There's a couple of things that you can do. Like and subscribe is the simplest thing. Obviously you wanna get notifications for when the next episode is coming out. But if you go the next step, will you leave me a review? 5-star on Spotify or Apple. What that does is it tells the algorithm that, oh, hey, this is a high-value podcast because more people are leaving reviews for it and it then pushes it out to more people. So that's why when people are like, will you like and subscribe and put a 5-star rating? It's not just to make themselves feel better, it's actually to get more exposure for the show. So if you do that for me, I would greatly appreciate it, and, uh, I'll see you next time.