Counting on Justice: A Conversation with Paula Greisen

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Steven Libhart. Hey, LawPod listeners, Tierra here. I just wanted to let you know that there is a brief mention of sexual assault in this episode, which I know can be distressing for some. If you want to avoid this content, feel Feel free to skip using the timestamps in the show notes below.

Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. And this week we have a very special guest, and we're calling this one Counting on Justice: A Conversation with Paula Greeson. So welcome, Paula. And actually, I'm going to let Steve do the intro for you because it's always hard to introduce yourself. And I know Steve is just going to give you this massively fabulous intro.

I do. You might have to cut it back a little bit. For the record.

That's right.

Go ahead, Steve.

I love it.

Yeah, Paula and I are in love with each other.

We just—

That's true.

We go back through 2 law firms now. And full disclosure, she's a client of ours at Numbers Matter, LLC. Absolutely adore working with Paula. And one of the main reasons we love working with her is because of the type of work that she does, which we're going to find out today what her niche is in the legal industry. She is a very well-known attorney in our area of the country and nationally for some of the work that she's done. She'll touch on some of that today. And I just can't tell you how honored I am, Paula, that you're giving us time out of your schedule to talk to us and share your story with us. So welcome.

Well, thank you so much, Steve. And it's because you do what you do that you make me be able to do what I do.

Do you call me and we both go, ah, we go.

Yes, there's a lot of that. Right. But luckily, I have you to call. And usually, it's like, okay, but I can fix it. Let me— give me 5 minutes, and then you come back with the fix.

Well, you know, that's what I like about working with you, too. While we're— well, just real quick on that piece of the subject, we have a great symbiotic relationship between accounting and law firm, law firm and accounting, and we can get all feisty with each other. But what's really cool is we both figure it out together. And then the next time we know what to do, or we forget because it's been so long since we did it, you know. But it's a great relationship, and I, and I really respect that. So thank you.

Well, and you're being humble because usually you figure it out and tell me how I screwed up, and then it's like, oh, okay, all right, now Steve's gonna fix it and I can go on with my other work.

Yeah, yeah.

Secret about all of us in accounting.

So maybe you could, you could start off by sharing with us the type of law that you practice, the type of clients you represent, the passion that's involved in that, and, and what makes it so unique, because you have such a gift for the type of work that you do.

Oh, thank you, Steve. I, I do a wide range of civil rights work, everything from— we used to call it driving while Black. Now it's just basically walking or breathing while Black. Those cases, a lot of employment discrimination cases, but also looking at some of the bigger kind of systemic cases where you have marginalized communities. If I can help those communities be treated more fairly, it's certainly more humanely. And in the last, I don't know, decade or so, I've done more and more, right? work on the LGBTQ front, LGBTQIA front, because these communities have been so attacked and vilified like no other, I would say, in our society. So it's kind of a hodgepodge, but it's all civil rights and looking at human rights and dignity and respect work.

Do you help your clients? I mean, some of them, their lives have been totally wrecked. And how do you— how do they find employment after this adventure they've been through? I hate to call it an adventure, but after this debacle that they've been through that, that brings them to you, how do they find work? How do they put their lives together? What, what role do you play in that? And, you know, obviously you're defending them. And trying to get some resolution to making life better for them. But there's so many pieces that fall off that they've got to put back together.

Well, that's incredibly true. And I think the biggest part of that is that when people are discriminated against, when people are treated inhumanely without dignity, you kind of lose your breath, your voice, your power. And a lot of what I do is trying to find ways to, to help that person get their voice back, to be heard. I usually can't undo the damage that's been done, but what I try to do is holistically look at how, how we can help people heal. It may be getting a job back. that they've been pushed out of. For the LGBTQIA community, it could be they have been turned away wrongly, denied service, and it's going to the courts to say that's wrong, it's illegal, it's not going to happen in the state of Colorado, and hopefully to make broader law that it's not going to happen in this country. So there is no way— the legal system doesn't have any way of repairing and making people whole. So often it's done about compensation so they can get the therapy, they can get the medical care. And sometimes it's just about a pronouncement that this is wrong and we're not going to tolerate it. That's true with a lot of the LGBTQIA work.

Well, you know, I follow you in the news a lot. I, you know, see you and you get the emails from me. I just saw you on Channel 9 or whatever, you know. But you represent people in all walks of life, clear up to professional people. And I think you know which case I'm talking about that, that recently occurred, that you represented the lady and she was wrongly let go by a government entity, correct?

The chief of police is who you're talking about, and it's not unusual. I do represent police officers. I'm happy to sue the ones who violate my clients' rights, and I'm equally happy to defend them when they have their rights violated. So I represent, yes, doctors and lawyers and chiefs of police, and I also represent the people that are cleaning your hallways at night to make sure. sure that you're living in an— or that you're working in an environment that's acceptable. So no, there is not any person in any walk of life that's immune from having their civil rights attacked.

I find it interesting when I read a little bit more on your, your bio of information, and it, it's jogging my mind of like, how does a person in the prison reach out to someone like you? And that body of work, because what you're just— you're describing is, it's a wide range. And I'm thinking in the back of my mind, well, how— if you're disabled or there's something happening in a prison, how do they find Paula? Like, that's amazing how that body of work happened for you. And a little bit of—

Well, part of it is getting older and just being around for a long time, having done this stuff.

They know where you are.

They know where I live, right? They know where they can write me. I will say the prison work I do is some of the hardest, some of the most gut-wrenching. The case I think you're talking about, Sarah, is the class action involving transgender women in the state of Colorado, and true across the country. These women historically have always been housed according— or everybody is housed according to the gender assigned to them at birth, which is often not in conformity with how they've lived, sometimes for decades. So that—

So wait a minute, you're saying that a transgender woman who has been that way for 35 years is incarcerated with men?

Yeah.

Okay.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's the standard across the country. In fact, most prisons have a provision saying that we house people according to genitalia. I mean, it just says that. Wow.

Wow. Is this America?

You know, it's not uncommon for these marginalized groups, especially in prison, to have very little voice. Nobody's paying attention. Nobody's watching. And I agree, Steve, when I started looking at this case, it was because of one young woman who had lived in conformity with her gender identity for years and years and years. And she had been in the state youth correctional facility because these women are often thrown out by their families. They're victimized. They find themselves in these situations. She was in the youth correctional facility pro se. She filed a lawsuit and they agreed to, to house her with the women all on her own. Amazing young lady. And when she turned 19, the judge said they were sending her to the men's prison. And I was asked by the— a national organization, the Transgender Law Community, or Transgender Law Center, to see if I could help her. I immediately went to federal court, tried to stop them from putting her in an especially dangerous men's prison. The judge denied me, and within a couple of hours after her move, she was brutally raped. It was, it was really horrific. In the course of investigating her case, I went around to the prisons along with the Transgender Law Center and thought, okay, I'm going to see what other women are housed this way, and was shocked to find out that at that time there were 150 other trans women that were housed in the men's facilities.

So that's how they're— to Sarah's point, this is kind of how they came along and found you.

They grow. Yeah. I mean, yeah, somebody reaches out to somebody that they know is doing this work, and it's a community, right?

Yeah.

So now, now, actually, upon settling that case and getting those women out of the men's prison, we found out that there's probably closer to 400 trans women just in Colorado And more like 10,000+ across the country, trans women who are housed in these facilities. So it helps when organizations and this podcast bring attention because nobody knew. Yeah. And it takes a spotlight.

So to me that you balance a heart empathetic space in this framework of the legal to represent all these people. And I'm presuming too, is you— not every case is compensation-wise of, of a certain level. Like, there's people that practice law in all kinds of ways and make a— you have to really lead in such a space that is just such a balancing act, is the way I see. I see that seesaw thing. Because I can't. And also the emotional pull, like what you just said, my, my immediate gut reaction was like, God, it hurts in my stomach. I probably would get sick if I read all this stuff about it.

And truthfully, Sarah, I can't even tell you how many times I would go in and talk to somebody and then go back to my hotel room and cry.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it, it, I mean, part of why I do this work is because I care.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's— it is a very emotional experience when you hear about these women's lives.

So the kind of segue into the business side of your practice, then you're a lot like— for those of you that are listening out there and watching, this type of law is a lot like a personal injury firm in the way the money flows.

Or doesn't, right?

Or doesn't. Yeah. And let's talk, let's talk about that. You know, what is the life of a case and how long do you wait to see payment while you've got all of this, these transactions going on?

Well, sometimes you don't see payment. It's, you know, that going into these cases, um, the Masterpiece Cakeshop case that went up to the Supreme Court about, um, a gay couple that wanted walked into a bakery and wanted a wedding cake. We knew going in that we would never be paid despite thousands of hours. I have another case now where a trans woman went to the same bakery for a birthday cake and they denied her request for a birthday cake. These cases aren't about They're not about the money. And the lawyers that do that know that you're not going to be paid. So yes, it's the clients who are the lawyers and doctors that pay my bill usually.

Yeah.

So I can do these other kinds of cases. And it's not for the faint of heart. But what's so important is that you have a very tight finger on the accounting. You know how much you have, you know how long you can go, and, and if you can't, what, what are you going to do? You need a plan. But in order to do that, you have to trust the person who's doing the numbers.

That's one of the reasons I really like working with you is because you do— as an attorney, you stay on top of your numbers, you stay on top of your business. You have to. But not only do you have to, you care about your numbers and asking the questions and what's going on. And, you know, do I need to loan the business money, or do you know, can I take a draw now? Or, or we've got you, you keep us informed about when a settlement's coming. And so we know to watch for that, and we kind of can drill down into your accounting and your books and look and see what's going on and maybe have suggestions for you. And I like that dialogue that we have when those things are going on. And, you know, Sarah and Linda, you might have some examples of how— types of clients that you have where you have those discussions as well?

Yeah, we definitely do.

And we've got— I can think of a client right off the top of my head that its cash flow is just so tight that it's a constant, at least once a week, that we're having it like, this is what's coming up that you have to pay and this is what's there. And trying to work through it because it's really— it's stressful. It's stressful for the clients.

Why?

They're happy to have us. Because we do help in that respect with making sure that the cash flow is positive, help with collecting too, if we can. Those are the things we have to do. But I'm just absorbing your whole story and it's like, gosh, your heart breaks for some of these people. And it's such a practice area that would really— when you're dealing with so many emotions, I think of my family lawyers, they deal with so much emotional—

Yeah.

stuff. And sometimes we get on a call with them and you can just see in their face, you know, it could be child custody or it could be anything. It's a lot of emotion. And with you too, I mean, I can't even imagine what you felt like when you go to do this order. I mean, and you can't even— there's nothing you can do to the judge either, right?

That made me— that was my first thought. I was like, I don't like to go in front of him again, you know.

And I'm thinking of the show I just Kind of binge-watched because I, I did— I kind of forgot about it, The Good Fight, and it had a lot of coverage of this. And, and it— there's a lot that pulled on me. And I mean, and just from my own experience, I've recently had to make a phone call to a grocery store here because of the discrimination that they displayed to my— I'm twin moms, basically. My mom is an identical twin, and they—

Do not tell me they did this to the mamas.

Yes.

Yes. And I—

Don't worry, Sarah handled it.

It happened again, but not in a discrimination way, thankfully. It just— but it was just— it's just that small door, that small window. And honestly, I think to myself, Paula, and knowing historically your background and just any of the communities, like you're saying, anyone marginalized, how do you even articulate in your brain that this is of value to bring forward. And I'm sure that you have to— it's like, you just have to, like, is the story real? Like, how much am I— like, there's probably a lot of assessment that you have to do in your mind to decide, okay, I know I'm not gonna have financial gain on this one, but I need to take this one on. And then as a business owner, you have to be prepared. Like Steve's saying, you have to probably be prepared to pull out of your pocket. You got to have the stash of cash. So when the winds come in and go like this, you got to be prepared for those things.

Yeah.

You come from a different tenure of space that I— I mean, it's very fascinating to speak with you on just, just the cases you do, but just your business acumen, like where you— what you see as a business female in this space too.

Well, that's a huge question, Sarah. I mean, You know, I had a bank once after I had my first child and took— I decided it was my— I took 6 months maternity leave because I owned the business and a partner and I, and I came back from maternity leave and we were probably looking at going into our line of credit because I hadn't worked for 6 months. And the bank executive, a male, chided me. For taking that maternity leave, and these are the words he used: without asking his permission.

What?

And I, you know, kind of did a double take and thought, well, I won't tell you what I thought. We we very quickly moved the account to another bank. It was a. Major, major bank. You know, it's always a challenge as a woman. I think, you know, when you go into this kind of law and you're not doing billables, that you've got to be kind of crazy and a risk taker.

Yeah.

It comes along and over time, I mean, now I'm I've been doing it for over 30 years. So I— you're right, I am very picky about the cases. And we do a lot of vetting up front. There are some cases that you don't— you know, right? You just know because you know, your heart tells you, you got to do this case.

Mm-hmm.

Something is way off here.

Yeah.

So there are cases like that, and then there are people that come in and say, this has happened and we're, we're gonna, we're gonna look at it. And usually it's a call to the other counsel saying, yeah, you know, I got, I got this and this and this. Tell me what you got. Um, I don't have any interest in bringing a case that doesn't have merit. I don't. I mean, I, you, you Don't just take everybody. I, I'd say I turn away probably 80 to 90% of the cases that come in the door. Um, and then, as Steve knows, sometimes I go a long time without paying myself, or I have to loan. So you have to build up that reserve.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's a scary business, right?

It's the purest entrepreneur in a way within the— and I feel like you just, you really, it's just like the ledge is there always. You just have to be comfortable with the ledge, basically.

Well, my guardrail is Steve.

Yeah.

Right. I mean, I'm sure I would have fallen over more times unless Steve had been there to say exactly what Linda was saying. These are the numbers. This is what you can do. You got to put this into this account. This is what your monthly is going to be so I can plan. Um, because my cases are so emotional, I can't—

Yeah.

I, I, I couldn't tolerate it if my finances were in control. That's the only semblance of control I have in my business, and I Absolutely trust Steve knows what the numbers are and is there to ensure I don't commit an ethical violation or I don't screw something up. And if I do, that he knows how to fix it.

Well, you're willing to— I think the guidance too is that you're willing to listen. Like, you know, take it— it goes both ways, as you guys both opened up about, and not Every client we work with has that disposition.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, they hire us and they hire us and go under their rock and don't take— they don't take part in the success or path of their business. And that's really hard.

I feel like, I don't know, Linda, you probably have some good examples of where we've had to even separate. Like, I cannot work with this client because I know that they will not hear it possibly the way that I need to say it, but they might hear it better from Linda.

Yeah, that happens sometimes. It happens sometimes. Sometimes we have a client, and it happens the other way around too, where it just works better. Um, a lot of times with us, because I'm the older one, a lot of times depending on the age of the client, I'm able to connect in a different way than maybe Sarah with a younger client. It just really depends on the person and the personality. I think that's part of it. And fortunately, we don't have the same personality, so it can kind of work either way.

It's the same as being the lawyer. Some clients you really connect with, and sometimes it's better for my partner Scott to, you know, be the connection. So I think that's true in almost every field, but the 3 of you have the versatility To say, okay, I'm not communicating well. Maybe I need to hand this over to Sarah, right? That's a gift because look, I don't want an accountant that's just going to argue with me and tell me this is the way it is, and it's this way or the highway. We haven't. We don't run into that because we work together to figure out problems. So Steve and I haven't. And he also knows I can say, Steve, I don't agree with that. And he can also say, Paula, that's, you know, that doesn't make any sense. That's okay. We're both big kids. Yeah, it's, it's, it's okay because he, I know he's got my, I know he's got my back and my best interests at heart.

It's a financial team. I've always referred to it as a team. You need a strong operational Foundation, the marriage.

Yeah, I was gonna say that very word.

Or like, uh, one of our friends, uh, says that there's the physician and the head nurse. Really, the head nurse is the one doing all— the last person is like, the way she references, is like the tax person. They're just signing off on the quality work is there, but it's that head nurse is the guidance and, and, and also supports and goes back and forth. Like, I might not like this. I like this. Okay, I like what you're saying. I mean, it's true of any relationship, but I do feel a successful business, you really do have to rely on that guidance that goes both ways to be heard. Because we might think one way, but your spidey sense is something different. So, okay, Paula, let's, let's unwrap that. Like, what is the gut telling you? We gotta understand that and Human behavior work together. So, yeah.

And it— that exactly mirrors, Sarah, kind of my work with my clients too, right? It's, uh, something's going wrong. What do we need to do to fix it? How can we communicate, whether it's something between me and my client or something between what's going on with my client and their employer?

Mm-hmm.

Or the state. I guess I fully believe— I mean, we're well beyond the smoking gun days where you walk into the courtroom and, you know, pull a witness nobody's ever heard about who's going to say something that makes you win the case. That's just not reality. And that's not It's not reality in the courtroom, and it's also not in real life. It's a collaboration. And that's what makes your team so special. I feel like, frankly, like Steve is a part of my family. I know that if I freak out about something on Saturday at 6 o'clock and I'm shooting him a text like, holy crap, blah, blah, blah, He's not going to wait until Wednesday to get back to me, even if he's out traveling in his fancy motorhome. Right. That Airstream. What is that? Airstream? Yeah.

Yeah. She got new tires yesterday.

Yeah, I know. It's her baby. But he's, he's going to be there for me.

Yeah.

And that gives me an enormous— look, I'm a single mom with 2 teenagers, and I need all the peace of mind I can find. And it's really critical that when it comes to the money, I have peace of mind.

Well, like I was saying a while ago, you don't run and hide from me. You know, sometimes our clients will hide.

It wouldn't work anyway.

It wouldn't work.

I know where to find you. But a lot of times our clients will turn over the books and then they hide and you can't get what you need from them. And you're having to cajole them and get them out from under their rock and tell them you might not be safe right now financially, but you can't hide from this. You've got to— we've got to work on this together. We've got to figure this out.

Hey, money is uncomfortable. It's not what lawyers do, right? I mean, it does make me uncomfortable.

So true.

I don't have the confidence. You can like run these things off the top of your head using words I don't even know. I know just enough to kind of bluff my way through a, you know, a meeting. But it is uncomfortable, number one. The concept that I might not have enough money is very uncomfortable, and that I might have to go without a paycheck so I can make employees make sure they get their paychecks. You know, I do want to put my hands up to my ears and go blah, blah, blah really loud because that is— it, you know, has that thing where your tongue, your stomach goes, whoa. So I don't know what I would do without you. You do have to tell me things that I can't hear. But usually when we run and hide, it's because we like to be in control and we like to be the boss. And we're not in that stuff. And that's why we need you.

So I want to, you know, something that came up in the Law Lab that That, that meets every Friday. I think it was just last week we did cost receivable. And Paula is like this wonderful scientist with cost receivable. Um, she is so on top of it. And that's, that's another thing I really like about working with you is that you watch those cost receivable like a hawk.

It's because I don't have any.

But it's, it's really nice to know. And what's your, what's your philosophy on what you should and shouldn't charge for in some of these cases. And, and I really like how, how you capture a lot of your cost receivables. And that's— there's a science to that. You know, you're, you're keeping track of what's in there, and when the case settles, then you decide what's, you know, what you can take and what you can't take. And you're already on top of it before I even go into it.

Well, I think it's part of the nature of the work. I I do, especially when you're on a contingency. You want money to come in every month because you know you're going to have bills every month, but cases don't settle every month. The alternate way is to make sure if you're actually out of pocket for those records, you, you go to the client and I'm— Look, when it comes to clients, Uh, some clients, I agree, I will, I will cover costs up front and that they have to cover them. I mean, that's the law in Colorado at the end of the case. But I also don't take, um, clients who I know are in a position to pay that say, I can't pay my expenses this month because I have other bills. I'm going to get on the phone with the client and say, I'm one of your bills.

Yeah.

And I, you know, I, I appreciate this case is important to you, but if you're asking me to spend $50,000, $60,000, $70,000 out of pocket in attorney's fees, you need to pay me the $47 invoice that I sent you.

Yeah.

Oh, wow. Well put. Yeah.

Well, it Everybody likes to get paid.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I mean, I don't, I don't think it is inappropriate to be upfront about the fact that I cannot afford to do all my cases for free. Yeah. And, and people do have to pay. I have employees. I have a mortgage. I mean, I drive a 17-year-old car that now and then needs new tires, just like your Airstream. So, you know, I have gotten over, as I've gotten older, being willing to say, I will go out on a limb for you, but you need to show me the same commitment that I am showing you. I was just gonna say, that's why I'm on top of it, because I, I need that $47. Because the bills have to get paid. My bills have to get paid.

One of the things I tell new solo attorneys, I don't know what you guys do, Sarah and Linda, but this might speak to some of the things that you do when you're consulting with them. One of the lines I use with them is that you're going to be the last to be paid. It's always the doctors and the lawyers are the last ones to be paid. And, you know, I'll pay my doctor before I'll pay my lawyer, you know, because he's got to— he's got to fix my broken zorch or whatever it is, you know. And so You know, it's— you kind of have to educate new attorneys in that flow of money because a lot of them come out of law school thinking, I'm going to make $200,000 my first year and I'm going to be on— and to your point, Paula, I'm going to settle every case because I'm going to have that secret witness that's going to pop out of the woodwork. And all of a sudden, 6, 7, 8 months into it, they're like, I'm broke. What's going on? Yeah.

Some people are not meant to own their own business. They really need to go out there and find out, I just need to be, you know, part of a firm. I just need to be an associate because you don't come out with all of— I mean, every type of industry doesn't really come out with the business know-how, right?

Like, I still don't think I have the business know-how, Sarah, and I've I mean, it's— they don't teach you this in law school. Yeah, they don't. It's, um—

They teach you how to pass the bar.

Yeah, yeah. And how to, you know, think about a case. I remember the first time I saw, you know, profit and loss statement and a balance sheet, and I was like, what? I mean, I don't know what it meant. And I still have lots of questions where I say, Steve, why is this put on This instead of this, and where do I love our balance sheet talks?

I'm like, why doesn't she get this?

Oh, and and and you'll be saying that ten years from now too, Steve. Like, why doesn't she get this?

Yeah.

What's important is that I know I know I've got somebody on board who does get it.

But you know it's there, and you're asking the questions. That's what's important.

Well, I you know. I went out. I've always had a practice where I've had other partners helping to— we all collectively help pay the bills. And last year, last— a year ago, last February, I went out on my own where I'm the only person, you know, the only equity partner, um, and I'm solely responsible for—

A whole different ballgame, isn't it?

It does add to the stress.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It, it does. On the other hand, I know the choices I make. I have to feel comfortable with my choices, and I do. I think in this business, I'm— look, I'm conservative. I'm not, I'm not taking my team out to New York for You know, a retreat. I'm sure they'd probably like that. But I mean, we, we, we're pretty conservative. When people go get a new $200 printer, they know I'm conservative. And they'll say, is this okay? No.

Yeah. Yeah.

But we go through sometimes long periods of famine, and we have to be And I can tell you, working with your team, Lori and Scott, if you're listening, they are just a delight to work with because you've put together a really good team of people who are as passionate as you are. And behind the scenes, they're covering you just like I'm trying to do over here. And you're really good at your business. I mean, I've got to give you an A+ on that. You pay attention to your business, and that is such a gift to all of us that support someone like you. You know, that you care enough, and that, that's what will, will bring you your success, you know.

Well, and you also are the one that has to tell me, stop taking pro bono cases, Paula. We need some, we need some, um, liquidity here. Um, but I— you are, you are a part of our team, and you are also one of our biggest cheerleaders, and that helps because these cases Do get emotional. They do get hard. And at night, it's great to have the spine of the team that can take those blows and still know we're gonna, we're gonna be standing at the end of the day. Or, you know, at least until I get too short to reach the keyboards because I keep getting pounded down. But At least, at least I feel like we can continue to do it as long as we need, as long as we have the support.

Well, and if I may, you, you know, you have done cases that have gone to the Supreme Court. Way cool. You, if I may bring up what you just did about a week ago in Boston, could we talk about that a little bit? Because people are, people are looking to you for how did you do this? What is your advice? What What makes you so special in what you do? And I think that, you know, you need to toot your horn a little bit here. So share with us a little bit, if you could, what you did about a week ago in Boston.

Well, it was— I mean, the Boston Equal Employment Opportunity Conference was a collective of both plaintiff and defense lawyers that work in the employment realm to talk about the latest trends. in case law with respect to discrimination and how workforces— you know, we came out of COVID there were all sorts of new rules coming out of that. And this particular panel met to discuss what's the future for protecting LGBTQ rights. We've had a series of cases come out of this current Supreme Court, and there's too many to go through, but first was the affirmative action case, the Harvard SFFA case, which basically said— I'm going to paraphrase, and I will give a disclaimer that I am a shameless civil rights plaintiff's lawyer, so this is my own biased perception of what that holding was. But as I, as I put it, the Supreme Court has announced that racism apparently has been abolished, and we don't need to worry about it anymore, and we don't need to worry about it in higher education, and that race may not be specifically be taken into account because kind of been there, done that. We saw that the witch is dead, according to their opinion. we can move on.

Wow.

It was stunning in a lot of ways. Of course, we'd known that there's been an attempt in the— within some factions to get rid of affirmative action in all forms. And this really drilled down on the fact that universities, public and private, can no longer use race as something that gives somebody else an edge. On the heels of that case, you've seen a lot of other cases talking about— and I won't go into the names— talks about, well, the state told a religious organization, well, you know, the religious organization didn't want to let gay parents adopt. They ran this massive adoption agency that was funded by the state or helped— some funding from the state. And the state said, you know, if you're going to discriminate against these couples, we can't continue to contract with you. And the group said, well, these are religious freedoms. You can't refuse to contract us. And the Supreme Court agreed. It was a Catholic charity, agreed with the Catholic charity that the state couldn't discriminate against them for religious views. And what we've seen more and more, and in the Masterpiece case, the first Masterpiece case, they just sidestepped the whole issue and didn't decide whether a public business could say, we don't serve gays here. They couldn't say—

But didn't they push it back down to the state? Isn't that what they did?

What they did was they— it was kind of a let's skirt around all the issues. In that case, in Masterpiece, I'll call it Masterpiece 1, the couple went in, asked for wedding cake, the baker said no. The process has to go through a state administrative agency. The commission at that agency, some of the commissioners said, well, we can't allow that kind of discrimination. That's— you can't use religion to justify discrimination. That's like what— I think she made a comment like, didn't Hitler do that? Or didn't somebody, you know, justify genocide using a religious basis? That comment had nothing to do with the trial that I did, had nothing to do with the couple. But the Supreme Court said, yeah, somebody made a comment like that, that evinces hostility toward religion. So we're going to throw out the verdict because of that. And they didn't— they just said it evinces some hostility which we can't tolerate. They didn't decide the merits of the case.

Wow.

And then 303 Creative, the next case came along. A website designer said, challenged Colorado law. She said, I'm going to develop websites for weddings, but I don't want to serve gay people. I don't, I don't want to do—

I remember that in the news. Yeah.

I don't want to do gay weddings. It's my religious right. You can't make me. And again, the Supreme Court sided with her and said, yeah, the state can't force a website designer to engage in speech that violates her religion. It was a First Amendment case. So what we've seen over time is this kind of slow— it's not as slow as one would expect. Typically, when the Supreme Court moves in an area, they do it slowly. Here, they're moving a lot faster to kind of erode some very fundamental rights. And so what we've seen is across the country in certain states, more so than in others, there was, for instance, a white guy, top, pretty high-level executive, And I'll just say John. John was a really good guy. He was on the DEI committee and hired a Black woman and, you know, did, did some good things. And then when John was terminated as a part of a reduction in force, he claimed that the company was so focused on DEI, they were trying to get rid of the white guys so they could bring in more diversity. And he won $10 million.

Wow.

It was a reverse race discrimination case. So you see, and there are organizations, law firms, very well funded, that are finding plaintiffs for these cases. We had a Fearless Fund, a nonprofit 503 that gave out grants, um, to Black women trying to be entrepreneurs, right?

Yeah.

Which you would think would be allowed in this day and age. And they have been sued, and so far the appellate courts have upheld them because some white organizations came along and said, oh, you're— now you're discriminating against us because we're white. we can't get these grants. And the courts have said, yeah, that's right. So it's, it's becoming very broad. It's kind of a complete evisceration of what the Civil Rights Act of 1964 were created for, to protect the marginalized community, is now being used to say, Wait a minute, you've got to protect the white people and religious freedom, that those are more important. It's a very scary shift, and it does lead, I mean, a bit of a slippery slope as to what's going to happen next. The website designer was unusual because designing a website actually involves writing something. Does baking a cake implicate First Amendment? The case I have now, the transgender woman who wanted a birthday cake, they agreed, the bakery agreed to make her a cake, the size cake she wanted, everything that she wanted. They agreed to take the order. She had ordered a red cake with blue frosting. After they agreed to take the order, she explained to them what those colors meant to her, because she was a transgender woman. And they were reflective to her of her transition.

Wow.

And that's the cake she wanted for her birthday.

My goodness. My goodness.

Then they said, no, we won't make that cake. So now we're back again to the issue of the bakery is saying, well, that's speech. Asking me to make a cake is asking me to engage in activity that violates my First Amendment.

I—

if baking a cake violates their First Amendment than basically tying a shoelace and everything else businesses do. It's the same argument. You don't— you— I'm sure you won't remember this case, but it was called Piggy Park back in the '60s when a restaurant owner said that he didn't want Black people sitting at his counter. They were allowed to eat In the back, but the counter was reserved for white people because he believed that intermingling of the races was against his religion. Oh my God. In the '60s, the Supreme Court said, that's stupid. We're not going there. And we're not, we're not even going to get into those discussions.

Yeah.

Now we have a Supreme Court who is not only agreeing to hear these cases, but appears to be more inclined than not to hear them and protect First Amendment and religious rights over any other civil rights that we have.

And on top of all of this, you have to have a business come out of this type of work. It's just fascinating. And And, you know, for those of those people out in the audience that work with attorneys in our roles in accounting, you know, if you really have a passion for people's rights and people's success in their lives, because dealing with their marginalization at the same time, this is the type of attorney you want to find and work for, because what would our world be without this kind of person here in front of us today?

Well, and Paula said something that I think is kind of true, is you're one solo firm. You're up against deeper pockets from one side to the other and all the— yeah. And so I just, man, I'm just like, my stomach's turning while I'm sitting here. It's like, but anyways.

It's scary. I'm scared. I literally Yeah. There was a time in my younger life where I thought, oh, I missed the civil rights movement. I missed it. Darn it. You know, there's not— that work isn't really going to— and then what we've seen in our society, unfortunately, is, you know, George Floyd was not an isolated incident.

Yeah.

And the MeToo movement may have not, not be generating as much publicity right now, but things haven't dramatically changed. And we're seeing a pendulum swing. And it's, it's disheartening.

Mm-hmm.

Because frankly, I would be really happy to be put out of business and call Steve and say, there's no more work, Steve. I'm really sorry. I'm going to Portugal.

But I think I would celebrate that, though. You know, that would, that would say a lot right there.

So you'd have to come with me, though.

Okay.

With the airship.

There we go.

There's just— it's mind-blowing. I mean, Linda and I privately have conversations where we might see things differently, but we are— our first principle together has always been we're all human beings. You care for each other. Yeah. And obviously that's not—

Well, I think a lot of the rhetoric going on today makes it really hard to talk and sometimes even makes it hard to care. I got a letter recently. The transgender women that I represent, we have found a way, a path for them to be moved into the women's facilities to live in a gender-affirming environment and provide them correct mental health and medical care. We've kind of invented a wheel because this hasn't been done across the country anywhere. And so we now have a designated unit at the women's facility, and there's going to be an integration program for both the cisgender and the trans women. To learn how to work together, communicate. And I got a letter from one of the cis women saying— it was clear she was very scared. She didn't believe that these trans women were really there because they were women, but rather were masquerading as men to come have sex with the women and kind of all the fears and rhetoric you hear in our society. And if you've never known any of my clients, and that's what you hear, and that's what you believe, I understand why she's scared.

Yeah, yeah.

I get it. And I think it does a disservice to ignore her. So I've written a letter to her basically saying, I hear your fear. I really do. And I want you to know that there's a team of people that's going to help this process. And I have an expert, and this expert, I think, would be an enormous help in this. Would you meet with my expert? Would you sit down and talk with us? And, and she may say no, right? But, you know, sometimes the yelling is so loud it's hard for us. I, I'm— I do believe she's scared.

Yeah.

Because she doesn't know.

Yeah.

So I can't dismiss her fears any more than I can dismiss the fears of the class members. Um, and unfortunately, I don't— I think we're losing the ability to just see each other as human and, and, and try to do that.

Yeah.

Um, which makes our work even harder, and it makes systemic change even harder, and all the more reason I need Steve, right?

Yeah.

Well, Linda, you started to say something a minute ago that—

I'm just saying, it's sometimes I think it's just ignorance. They just—

yeah.

You said they hear things on TV and they've never actually physically met somebody like that, so they don't know, right? You just don't— they just don't know, right?

Right.

And it makes it harder, I think, for them to understand. And it's just— that's the biggest part of it, the biggest hurdle. You know, I'm just sorry your person, your client got so severely hurt and all that. And I hope that they get help, you know, that From that bad decision by the judge. And that was still bothering me from the beginning.

It's just like, well, she's out of custody now. She's doing great. She's enrolled, uh, in school. She's in the Army Reserve, um, bought her own first car. She's nice. She's doing great. Another client of mine, I was just talking with her yesterday. She's also out. They, they, they— she got out early. She's opened up 2 new businesses. She's getting her accounting degree. She was just asked by her university.

Did you hear that? Did you hear that?

Yes.

She's amazing. She is. Was just selected the— they have a leadership program. She was selected the Student Female of the Year in her student program and went to a leadership conference in Denver.

Yesterday.

This woman is so impressive. I'm like, I want to be you when I grow up. She's, she's already interning at a major accounting firm. But those aren't the people you hear about. You hear about the boogeyman in the bathroom, which frankly has never been shown to be true. But it's the rhetoric. If you say something Regardless how false it is, people will believe you. And then we get into arguing about which side is more stupid. Anyway, I'm on my soapbox. I know that I could go on forever, but if you need to hire an accountant, I know a phenomenal candidate for you.

Well, you've got, you've got 3 of them right here in the room, so.

Right.

I'll put her in touch with you and you can have her on your next podcast.

And there we go. Well, you know, we've— you're the second attorney we've brought in. I think she's the second one, right? We've brought into the podcast. And both guests that we've brought in have a very unique type of law that they practice. So, this has been so fascinating for you to share all this with us today. I can't thank you. We can't thank you enough. For sharing the uniqueness of— Insight.

And it gave us insight into this practice area because it's not one you see very often, although we had one recently, I think, came by our way, which is like, oh, wow, that's interesting. It's just one you don't see. So it's nice to understand what you do and what you advocate for.

And because not many people are crazy enough to do this. Well, it's like a special kind of crazy.

I have the Oh, for lack of better words, the directory of all the attorneys in the state of Colorado. And one night I just sat down, was starting to look through it, and I'm like, oh my gosh, there's an animal rights attorney. I want to work with them.

Yeah.

You know, so if you're out there in our niche, in our— what we do, folks, don't just settle for the plain old what comes along your way. You can get creative with your kind of work and figure out who you want to align your business with, your accounting business with. And kind of vicariously in the back end because of Paula, I just feel like I'm part of that process.

You are, Steve.

That she has going on. And I'm just like, I'm helping make that happen behind the scenes. And that's, that's huge for me. So thank you. Thank you. And thank you for coming today.