Elevating Success: Inside Jayden Doye’s Transformational Retreats

Welcome to Accountants Law Pod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Stephen Libhart. Welcome back to the podcast, everybody, and we are really excited this week. We have a special guest that we actually— I think the first time I met you face to face, Jaden, was at ClioCon. Like, you kind of tracked me down. It's like, yeah, he was so full of energy. I was like, oh, I like this guy. So, um, I will pass the baton to you so you can give us a little bit of a rundown on who you are. But we have Jayden Doyle, who is famous in our industry for a lot of things. So go ahead, Jayden, tell everybody about a little bit about yourself.

Absolutely. Hello everyone, my name is Jayden Doyle. I own Prestige Accounting and Consulting. We're based out of Atlanta, Georgia, but we have Employees in different states and clients in about 24 states at the moment. Um, and of course we focus on helping law firm owners reach new heights and catch more flights.

I like that.

I like that. Do you— I was gonna ask, do you have snow right now?

Yes, we currently have snow outside in Atlanta.

Yes, we've already heard that from one of our staff members, that she's like, y'all can take your Snow and go back to where it belongs. It doesn't belong in Georgia right now. It's not happy. Yeah. I mean, we actually kind of named this Elevating Success Inside Jaden Doye's Transformational Retreats because you do do a lot of retreats because I actually follow you around vicariously for all the amazing places you go because you don't just go like to— I shouldn't say any bad places that I wouldn't want to, but I'm just going to say I'm just going to name a city and I'm like, don't do it.

But I don't want to get any hate.

emails. But I mean, you go to really amazing places like Dubai, and I mean, I've— you go to Barbados. I'm like, can I come just like be your— I'll write, I'll take notes for you.

Yeah, so that all came about, um, because in 2020, um, between December 2020 and January 2021, you know, there were— during the pandemic, there were a lot of tax law changes And I mean, it felt like every 2 weeks something would change. And so in, in conjunction with managing a pretty big client list and a team of 13, also had to keep up with the ever-changing tax law. And I found myself burnt out working 80 hours a week for 2 months straight. And during that time, I gained 23 pounds and my doctor actually told me that I had high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

Hmm.

And so I had to make changes. I need to make some changes in order to better my health so that I can continue doing what I'm doing. And so that's when I started to take some time off, started to travel. I literally like cleared my calendar for a week and went to Mexico, just canceled meetings and said, you know, I need to definitely take some time off for my health. And that's when I realized how transformational and how rewarding it was to get away. And also, when you're on a plane, studies show that your thought process— you're in a heightened thought process and that it's actually beneficial to work, you know, to get your creative ideas out of your mind while you're on a plane or read a book when you're on a plane. And, you know, I'm the type of person where I'm so comfortable on a plane, as soon as we lift off, I start to fall asleep. Okay. But I had to lately, over the past couple of years, I started to change that. And so with that, I also learned about the business model that other business coaches and consultants have done, where traditionally there were mansion retreats. That was the thing that people were doing. They would rent a big mansion, have business owners come, and they would do workshops. And so I did that. The first one was in Miami, but then I wanted to take it up a notch and get other people to explore the world like myself. And so that's when I started to do international. And we've been to Mexico, we've been to Dubai, South Africa. This year we're going to be going focusing on the Caribbean. So we're going to go to Curaçao, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic. So it's been great because I'm able to help these law firm owners step outside of working in their business to work on their business. And also it tests them because they have to make sure that they have things and people in place So that the business is sustainable when they're not working actually in the business. And of course, emergencies always happen when you're away. So how do you handle that? Um, it's a learning curve for a lot of people. So it's been very, uh, transformative for others as well as myself. And it's been a lot of fun as well.

How long are the engagements, the trips? Do you tend to—

We usually do about 5 days.

Okay. Wow. And do you, um, is it where it's super like, you know, some of these trips are really organized? You have like a— the first day is like a free day kind of thing when you come in and get relaxed, and everyone has to be there by a certain day basically, right?

And then—

Right. So the first day is usually more of a relaxed— we usually have a welcome dinner, and then we'll do 2 days of workshops, and then we'll do either 2 days of excursions or a day of excursions and a free day. And what I also like to do is incorporate some type of historical or cultural excursions. So actually, like, viewing, going around the town, learning the history of the city. Um, I think—

Oh, that's cool.

Me personally, living in Atlanta, there's a lot of keeping up with the Joneses that goes on. And so when I go to places like Mexico and I see how people can have a happy life with so much less, it really puts things in perspective for you and it really changes your mindset and it helps you focus on what's important. And at the end of the day, I don't feel like I have to show off for anybody. So if I'm, if I'm showing off, it's for me and it's to inspire people, not to make people feel less than.

I love it.

And these, these are attorneys that are attending, correct?

Yes.

And you must be like a hero to these people that you're able to get them away and buy into this idea and then learn and change and develop from there. How do you, how do you run your business, your existing business, and do that too?

Um, so I have grown exponentially since I started over 5 years ago. So we have a team of 24, I believe, 24 in our full organization right now. And because of our growth, we hire at least 1 person a quarter. And so with that, I have to have leaders in place. So different departments and different teams have team leaders that they report to. That was one of the issues that I had early on when I had high blood pressure. Everybody was reporting to me. And that's when I realized that I needed to make a change. And I really did a deep dive in my business. And that helped me even come up with my methodology that I use for the consulting side of my business, for the different core areas that we focus on with helping law firm owners. And a lot of the first 2 years, I mean, I went through a lot of different things. And I felt like A lot of the things that I was going through, I realized, weren't necessarily a test for me. But I turned those tests into a testimony so that I'm able to help other people avoid those issues.

I actually went to Reframe Conference last year. And it, for me, was just such an amazing conference. And Hector Garcia ran it. It was right here in Florida, so it wasn't hard for me to get to. But what the first day— and because accountants are like very much like lawyers, right? They are so dead into their business. They care more than their clients. They're just so like Type A people. And he said, everybody put your phone away, turn it off. If I see you on the phone, I'm going to pick up that phone and take it from you. I'm not giving it back to you to the end of the conference. And I was like, whoa. I didn't want my phone taken away, so I put my phone away. But it was really good that he did that because I would have been so much involved in like, what's going on in my business Zoom chat? What's going on in email? And I left it all alone. And for me, I had that kind of epiphany like you did when you were going through what you went through and then you went on your trip. It was like, I should not be tethered to this because it's actually dragging me down. And I ended up, you know, I think— I don't know if that happened right when I came back, but I came back and I like talked to Tia and I was like, look, I know I'm really bad about— I'm always on top of my email, on top of my email, and you don't have to do much. for me, but it's gonna stop, and I'm gonna schedule it. I'm gonna turn off all those bings, dings, and pings and things that keep coming across my screen. And I'm seeing all these messages, and I'm like, I'm shutting that off. People can wait to hear from me. And it really— I think because people think they can multitask, and it's really not good for you because you don't do anything well. You might get everything accomplished, but you're not getting— you actually don't, but you don't do anything well. And I think the fact that you take the people out of their where they live and work and breathe and put them in a beautiful place and get them away from the office. That's how I did my teacher training for yoga. I couldn't do the online. I couldn't do the things that were local. I had to shut down and go somewhere to learn that because I just knew that I wouldn't be present in it. And what's the point of spending all that money if I'm not going to be paying attention and focusing on what I'm doing? And I think that that was— and I'm just curious to how you handle getting them to get off their phone and shut it down so they can really— they paid the money to be focused on what you're teaching them.

That's a good question. So when I was in college, I had a really good business professor who she would give us like a worksheet. And with that worksheet, there were words that were missing, and you needed to complete the worksheet in order to study. And so in order for that to happen, you had to pay attention. And so I've always like kept that close to me. And so when I'm doing my workshops, I'm moving fast. Okay, we're not slowing down for you because you were checking your email. So, you know, I just keep it— I keep it going. I don't like to do too much lecturing. I do a little bit of, here's the background on that information. Now I need you to take notes. Here's the worksheet, and I need you to work on the worksheet while I'm doing the presentation. So, making sure that I'm using multi-senses from people has helped in retaining their attention.

That makes sense.

We had to write too in that work that whole week. We— he gave us paper and little things and we had to write in it. And he said, because writing, you're going to retain it better in your head and you're learning it. And it really— I, I was just— I was blown away by that.

Well, and it'll make you slow down. You're not typing it out and buzzing through it all, and you have to stop and think and pay attention and Well, I think there is—

He gave us breaks, too, so I could call Sarah in the break and say, hey, this is what's going on. They gave us good breaks. They didn't make us sit too long. It was all very healthy. They had healthy snacks. I mean, he really— like, every detail was taken care of. And I think I appreciated that because, you know, we went to a conference one time. Remember, Sarah? We came out and I'm like, donuts? There were donuts! It was like 3 in the afternoon and there was just like a pile of sugar and I was like, I can't think of a worse—

I know exactly what that's like.

The cows were all like— this is before Ozempic. They were all like chowing them down. I'm like, this is terrible. And then you could see the people start to go down because the sugar went— like my grandkids when they have chocolate. Boom, boom.

I'm curious, Jaden, on the experience side of these professionals, like they're your clients, what have been some of the key takeaways that you felt that— like, obviously, it's a big impression on them. You're doing this. This is a big thing for you to do. What are some of the key things that you've heard or key takeaways that they've made some changes on in their business from these events that you've hosted? Because you put your heart into it, obviously.

Yeah, so I will say, um, both— there's both internal and external change. So the internal change is, um, changing money mindset. So a lot of people, especially minorities, have been bred to believe that being wealthy is bad, rich people are evil, and having a lot of money is not a good thing. And so getting Yeah. So getting people out of that mindset and helping them understand that you deserve to be wealthy for the hard work that you put in and to work through that survivor's remorse is, is definitely a transformation that people have had. And understanding it's really not that difficult to get a million-dollar business. That's only $83,000 a month. So if we're— and, and my methodology is all about having high-value clients. I don't really teach people to have volume-based businesses. So if we're just talking about $10,000 a client, that's only 8 people that we need to serve a month and build over, you know, $8,000 or $10,000 for. And so with that, that, that's the big internal change. The big external change is really grooming leaders in the organization and delegating. So, you know, the mindset that I'm going to do everything myself Yeah. Is a really old school way of doing things. Like the whole notion of people working 80 hours a week and 60 hours a week, it's because that they, they don't have the proper delegation. Like an attorney should not be doing paralegal work. A paralegal should not be doing admin work. So I have to break it down. Is that a $10 an hour, a $50 an hour, or $100 an hour job, that task that we're talking? And so really helping them break out the workflow Mm-hmm. Of all the mat— the type of matters that they have and break out the, the task, the admin task, and the, the general things that need to happen for this firm to flow has been a big transformation for people.

Mm-hmm.

And so, um, the hiring piece has been big for people. I don't know why people think that they can start a business and are apprehensive to hiring. Like, that's not how this works. You'll never go into— see, you'll never go into Target and see the CEO on the cash register. You'll never ever in your life ever go into a Walmart and see the CEO ringing people up. Matter of fact, they don't even have humans ringing people up anymore. They make the customers do the work and do self-checkout. So let's think about that as we think about growing our businesses.

Yeah, so it's really— so probably attending them, you really have to be in that ready-set mind of I'm ready for growth. I'm ready to learn. I'm ready to— like, it's lots of people like to say next level, but really that doesn't mean the business is next level. It's you internally probably going to that next level. I imagine like you're really— like, the things that I love about what you're doing is, is really transformational on the person accepting certain things that they can't see right now, or it's just an unlocked moment and That's such a beautiful moment to have with them, especially at the places that you're having it in.

Yep.

How do you pick the places?

That's a good question. I get polls from clients.

Okay.

And also I take recommendations from event planners that I work with.

Okay.

Yeah, that's great. Is there any one place that you've really felt like For you was, like, super magical, either the, the place and event combo, or—

Ask him which kid he likes better, Sarah.

No, it's just that sometimes events do stand out. Like, I remember from event planning, there were certain ones that I was like, oh my God, I wish I could have done that one again.

Yeah, both Steve and Sarah were event planners at hotels, so they both have that background that they pull from.

So my favorite one was Dubai, and that's because the economy in Dubai is different. So in Dubai, The nationals, they actually get a lot of money from the government. So when you're in the tourist area catching Lyfts and Ubers, you're getting in a Mercedes-Benz, a Tesla, BMW. Like, you're not getting in a 1996 Honda Civic. So wealth over there is just normalized.

Yeah.

Um, and, you know, they just— so they look at money differently, and I felt super safe. You know, I didn't feel like— when I went to Rio, they were like, don't wear anything designer, don't have your phone out, don't have your AirPods on. And I'm just like, I don't want to be in a place where I don't feel safe, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, so Dubai was definitely— was definitely great for me for that. Um, my second favorite, I would say, was South Africa. Um, we went to Cape Town, which is right on the coast, and so the seafood, as you can imagine, was absolutely amazing. The people friendly. The culture there is just very different, um, than over here. So those are definitely my top 2.

That's awesome.

I love it.

How has your health responded to this new life that you've created and this gift that you're giving to your clients? Because this is a gift beyond what they pay you. This is a gift to them to have you leading them along this way. So what has this done for you?

Well, it's in phases. And I used to be the type of person where I wanted— I want a 6-pack tomorrow, not in 6 months, but tomorrow, right? And I've learned to give myself grace. So it has definitely transformed over the years where now I work out 6 days a week. And, um, my health definitely has responded in a positive way where I have more energy, uh, my creativity is heightened. And I know When I'm not in a good place because I don't, like, get these creative ideas, like that inner voice that, that we have. Um, that's a real thing. And when I'm not really hearing that, that means that I'm too deep in the weeds of doing things.

You know that post that you post— reposted a post from what you were before. And when I sent to you, I said to you, you've got to write a book about this because it's such a great story. your journey from where you were working and then how you grew your business and what you're doing now. It's like night and day. And the fact that you— the way you wrote it was so from your heart because you kind of really talked about the steps that it takes because it's not a light switch moment. It's a progressive thing. And I really do. I think that was one that maybe we can find it and Tierra can dig it up for the channel just so they can see. like where you were, because it is incredible. And people sometimes see somebody like you with success and you're traveling and there'll be like a little bit of jealousy over it because they're like, I want to be like Jaden. But then they don't realize that there's work behind all of that. It doesn't happen overnight. You've learned probably every single conference that you put together or retreat you put together, you learn from each one how to make them better and better and better, right? I mean, I would assume that's the way it is and where not to go or what not to do different And based on how it was the one before?

Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I think that I definitely have had a tremendous transformation, and a lot of times I'm like in disbelief, like the fact that I am driving a $70,000 car, you know, I own my own house that costs more than the house that my parents grew up— I mean, I mean, had when I grew up. Um, you know, I just feel like— and my dad had like a mortgage on the house for like over 20 years. And it's like, you had a house that was less than $200,000 and it took you how many years to have it not even paid off? Because he just kept doing refi after refi after refi. Um, and so, you know, yeah. And I'm one that learns by people's mistakes. And so I saw a lot of people making mistakes around me growing up. So So that's, um, that I avoid that. And the other thing is, I'm upfront with clients on day one. I let them know on the sales call before they cut that first check, I take a business trip every month. So this is going to be your point of contact. Okay, you, you know, you might get my cell phone, but email is the best. Um, and they respect boundaries. So that's good. And they find that inspiring that I'm able to do this travel. And I tell them, I want the same for you. And the last thing I want to say about it is Yeah. Because a lot of people see the good, but they don't— they're not really ready for it. Like, you're really not about that life. Let's be real, right? Because I don't work a 40-hour workweek when I'm not traveling. Because if you think about it, that 40 weeks, 40 hours a week times 4 will be 160 hours, right? But if I'm out of the office for a week, technically, I'm still working. I put hours to business development, but there's a certain amount of production hours that have to happen in order for the firm to continue growing, right? And, and for deliverables to go out on time. So I might work a 45-hour work week on the, on the norm, um, or I might do 50 hours sometimes. And some people are not— don't have the discipline to be able to do that. Um, and so And, and sometimes, look, I might get back in town at 11 o'clock on a Sunday, and at 8 o'clock on Monday is my first call. And some people aren't ready for that. So just being real with yourself, um, for people that are aspiring to do more travel. And, uh, maybe in the beginning creating those buffer days and starting out small, maybe taking a 2 or 3-day trip, um, focus on— do like a Friday through Sunday and And have— and don't start until noon on Monday is— will be better for some people.

That's good advice.

That is really good. So when you started this endeavor of working with attorneys, what— how did you— like, what prompted it? Was it— was that the first thing that you started with when you opened the business, or did you sort of develop and realize this was the niche or the area of practice that you wanted to be in the most?

That's a great question. Um, I covered this a little bit more in my book, Raise the Bar, but I'll give you the short version. So long story short, um, I'm one who, as a high performer, we love to get new information. So I've been a part of a number of masterminds. I've read so many books, listened to so many podcasts, and one of the common themes is having a niche market. Okay. And so I knew coming into it that that was something I needed, just wasn't sure what direction I wanted to go into.

Yeah.

So legal was definitely one of the markets that I serve. But, um, honestly, I focused more on real estate because here in Atlanta, everybody's a real estate investor. Okay. So that's— that was great for me to do that for about a year. Then COVID happened and, um, they stopped getting money. And I'm like, well, I'm not about to stop getting money. Who's still getting money? Lawyers.

Okay.

So that was, that was part of it. But also, as I was, as I was figuring out, as I was like ticking off these different markets, as far as nope, this is not it. Doctors, a lot of them are W-2, or they're part of a network. And personality-wise, it's just not going to work because, you know, a lot of them, let's just be real, they have a God complex. And I can't feed into that. Okay. If I say the meeting starts at 1:00 and you come on at 1:07, the meeting has already been canceled.

Yeah.

I don't know why you're still trying to hop on Zoom at 1:07. At 1:05, I clocked out and I moved on to the next person, and that doesn't necessarily work for them. So I'm not going to put myself in that predicament.

Yeah.

With lawyers, as I was interviewing lawyers, um, that, you know, just to get market research, I realized that there was a big deficiency in the market. The IO, as you all know, The IOLTA accounting and cleanup is definitely a big need. A lot of people don't get it.

Yeah.

And so we will always have work because lawyers just don't put the time and effort that they need into making sure that their IOLTA has that 3-way reconciliation. Um, and, and then the billing aspect of like not putting everything in the case management software, so we don't know what's going on, you know, that's always an issue. And so, um, once I realized that that was— there was a big deficiency, and I enjoyed working with them because I'm gonna be honest, I like talking to intelligent people, um, people that treat their business like it's a hobby. You know, these— a lot of these e-commerce people that are selling candles are not real business owners, right? But like lawyers are. They are— You have— in order to grow a firm, you have to have people. Right. So, um, even though a lot of them may not have the business acumen, I come in and help them with that. They have at least a foundation and they want to grow. They have that desire. And there's a big shift in the market that I want to be a part of.

That's awesome. Yeah. And then you really— I noticed that strategically you do a lot with different bars and, and you help with education that way, and that'll probably open up a whole new door. For you as well.

Absolutely.

Yeah. So the strategy of that, you want to talk a little bit about that for yourself?

Absolutely. So, um, when I tell people to dive all the way in, I mean dive all the way in. Don't just put your foot in, right? And so, um, I knew that a lot of the knowledge that I, that I wanted to get out there, I needed to put in the form of webinars. So that was the start, giving free um, knowledge out there, um, is— so the Dalai Lama once said, share your knowledge, it's the way to immortality, something like that. It was a quote that always stuck with me. Um, and so I implemented that into my business. And then on top of that, I'm generally just a friendly person. Like, I don't really— I'm not angry at life, I'm not angry at the world. So I'm just a friendly person. So networking is easy for me. So networking with the different bar associations and also giving back. I think last year we gave back over $50,000 to various bar associations, and we'll probably do that plus more this year. I just committed $10,000 yesterday. So, and then every year we do a $10,000 scholarship through the National Bar Association. So giving back and also creating these strategic partnerships with bar associations has been great because it's a win-win situation. I'm, I'm giving you all a workshop that you can give to people so that they can gain skills and knowledge. And I'm— and you're putting me in front of potential clients. So it's a win-win for both of us. So, um, so I, I get to know not only the Bar Association, but the leadership and the incoming leadership. So I need to know the president, the president-elect, and the vice president.

Okay.

I need to make sure everybody has my contact information.

Yeah, no, that's smart.

You have the most infectious smile I've ever seen, and I've never— I have never met you in person, but I've, I've known you through the Law Lab, and, and my observation of you is that mind is always working. And that is an incredible thing, a compliment to you, because you have done so much in such a short amount of time. I mean, pat you on the back. That's just amazing. And you're a gift to the legal industry. The You know, it's a, it's a recession-proof industry. When the economy gets worse, they get busier, and there's much more work for all of us. So you've, you've gone into the right niche, and wow, how you're serving it is just absolutely amazing. Now, with that said, if you can share with us, what are some of the things that you still find are major irritations and challenges that have to be addressed when serving attorneys?

Um, that's a good question.

That's a loaded question.

Well, listen, I'm one who doesn't hold my tongue, so what I'm about to say is about to offend people, but it is what it is.

It's the truth.

I'm one who believes I should not work with people I don't like, right? And my apprehension early on to working with lawyers is that I had some really bad experiences with lawyers when I worked at a firm. I'll give you an example. So we're closing out the year for a law firm, their payroll is off, and I'm bringing it to their attention. Hey, just to let you know, like, your DOL payment wasn't made or something like that. So as I'm doing my payroll reconciliation, I noticed that, so you might want to, you know, handle that. And then he went off on me like it was my fault. And the boss agreed with him. And I'm like, what in the world? Then another one, family law, which is my least favorite.

Steve's favorite, by the way. Steve says that's a hot potato. He doesn't want it.

No more family law attorneys for 2025. I've met my quota. Okay, I just onboarded one this week and no more. Okay, you have to wait till 2026. So, um, I, I— the meeting, let's say it's 3:30, right? I get to her office at 3:30 and she's like, you're late. And I'm like, late? What are you talking about? I'm on time. She's like, well, if you're on time, you're late. And if you're late— if you're, if you're early, then you're on time. And I'm just like, um, so, um, now I can say that I thoroughly enjoy the people that I work with. Like, I thoroughly enjoy the clients that I work with. Even when they call me, they're like, I really hate to bother you, but, you know, if they call me, it's generally a quick question or it really is an emergency. Like, they need to fire somebody and they need to talk this through because this is not something that they're used to.

Yeah.

Um, however, there has been some people— let's just be honest, in this field, a lot of people are Type A. And when I say Type A, I mean ADHD. I think that's what it stands for, right? Something like that.

It does.

You know, the lack of mental awareness of people is alarming. Okay? Like the lack— like, I have to tell people straight up, the reason why people quit at your firm over and over again, the reason why you can't retain employees is because of you, your attitude. You're the problem. And so that's the difficult part of my job. Is telling people you are the problem. The reason why this trust account has never been reconciled and won't be reconciled is because of you. You're not putting everything in the system. If you get cash, you, you don't even put it in the system. We don't know. Or if you sometimes you, you transfer money and you forgot what client it was for, how am I supposed to know what client it's for? I'm not psychic. So that part right there is— has been, has been the more difficult part. However, Um, people like the fact that I'm not afraid to have difficult conversations, and oftentimes it has, it has created a positive transformation. There has been a few times when I've gotten new clients and I have cleaned up their books from the previous year, showed them that they had a loss, they got mad at me and fired me. That happened 3 times.

Wow.

I just— we just kind of had this conversation this morning in the Law Lab a little bit later on where I said it's funny to me that things I'm presenting you the facts, only the facts of the work product that I've inherited to present you. And I, I'm not sure what just happened, but why am I the problem? Because these are the facts. I didn't— This is easy. I didn't tell you to move the money. I did not tell you to do it this way. And it shocks me sometimes, that mindset, because that tells me that personality is always somebody else to blame, and that's not a good relationship. You gotta own it. You gotta own your stuff, right?

Like, right.

Yeah.

And before I get off-boarded, I always make sure that we make it clear on record that you're the problem, not me. So I'll tell you, I had, I had one, um, one person who— and you know, a red flag is if you've had like a new accountant every single year for the past 4 years. That's definitely a red flag to me. And this one person, I ignored that red flag because they seemed to have it all together. And then 3 months in, they just flipped on me. And it's so crazy because I was going to dinner with another accountant and she was thinking about lawyers that she could refer me. And she was talking about how she had this bad experience with one lawyer she would never refer her. And I was like, wait a minute, this sounds familiar. Is her name blank? And, you know, we just both bust out laughing because I— at that point, wow. it was kind of early in the career, so I felt bad. I used to feel bad.

Yeah.

When they would go off on me, even though it wasn't my fault. But now I don't, you know. So that was a very interesting experience that just— that honestly has just changed my trajectory as it pertains to sometimes the relationship just doesn't work.

Well, and attorneys quite often think that we are on their staff and we're not. We're an advisor. We need to be their trusted advisor. And to your point, you know, you, you, you have to stop and say, wait a minute. Like you said, Sarah, I didn't cause this. I'm trying to be the solution. I'm here to help you. So let's, let's calm down a little bit. And to your point, Jaden, with, um, you know, you're, you're having incredible turnover in your firm. What's, what's the real situation here? So, you know, and that's really hard sometimes because attorneys are trained in law school to question everything, to, to go after, like, you know, your family law example. Those people really are in a lot of emotional work. I've used the verbiage before with certain family law attorneys. I say to them, you have permission to breathe and you have permission to slow down and you have permission to maybe table this talk until you're ready to, to put that hat on and we can fix this challenge. But I'm not a divorce client. You know, it's, it's a, it's a tightrope walk sometimes.

Family lawyers too. And there's some people— we have a few people in the Law Lab that really love working with them, and they're just a different breed when it comes firms do family law because they're just overworked and they live in this emotional state all the time. So a lot of times if we get snapped at, we just take a step back and say, wonder what happened in his or her day that caused that to happen. And sometimes just give them time. Don't respond, don't react, and then you let it go. But they're like an e-commerce of law firms. So they have so many transactions, so many people with the same names. And it's really— you have to like that, to like that particular, like, micro niche of the niche. If you don't, I wouldn't recommend working with them because it's hard.

So, Jaden, when you're at your— very well put, Linda. And that makes me think when you're at your webinars and your— I'm sorry, your seminars in Dubai and in South America and you're, you know, wherever, when you get one of those attorneys who's really hungry to find the magic bullet For changing their life. How do you, how do you stop and help them? What do you say to them? How do you refocus them that, you know, you don't have to work those 80 hours?

That's hard.

I, um, so I went, actually went to law school. Um, I went to Hulu University. So that's where I learned to, uh, depose people on Netflix and Hulu and YouTube. And so, and I did mock trial when I was in high school, so I know a little bit, you know, enough to be dangerous. So what I do is I flip the script and then I deliver it in the, in the fashion in which they're used to, in a form of questioning. So, you know, I, I ask questions to get them to the result that I want them to get, because if I ask you a direct question, you're not going to, uh, give you're not going to be honest.

Yeah.

So let me ask 5 other questions first. Like, you know, um, what, what is something that you have wanted, that you wanted to do personally, a hobby that you love that you've given up on? Let's think about that. Um, let's talk about the relationship that you have with your spouse. Like, do you feel like you, uh, like, has your spouse ever mentioned the um, negative emotions that they have when it comes to the lack of time that you spend with your spouse? Uh, what about your kids? Are your kids in sports? Are you seeing— are you actually going to their games? Are you engaged in their games? Um, what about vacation? When was the last time you actually were on— do you enjoy vacation? When was the last time you were on vacation? What do you think is holding you back from Getting you to that place where you can actually enjoy what the fruits of the labor that you've created. Um, you know, do you think that— and here's the money one— you're paying this attorney $100,000. Do you think that they have more knowledge and have a better skill set than yourself? Are they bringing in clients? So no. So why do you think it's appropriate that you're paying them more than you're paying yourself?

Oh, I love that. You're really, you're really helping people because I feel like sometimes the mindset is, like you said early on, if you're busy, you're successful. That's not, that's not the script. That script's gone. It's the intentionality behind it. And I love that. I love that question of asking your own staff, okay, I'm gonna give you this much money, but that, that's like, where do I value myself in that moment?

Right.

It's so big. It's so true because it's stuff we ask ourselves. We're them too in a lot of ways. What we put out there sometimes, I don't know if you feel this way, but I know Linda and I have talked about this. Like, we ask these questions of our clients, and then we think, what is that like for us? Is that us? Are we doing that?

Or what are we doing differently? I always say we're like the mechanic. I was married to a mechanic in my first life, and it's like, okay, I have to climb through my car window to get into my car because the door is broken. But I'm married to a mechanic who can Easily fix it, but that never happens. Or the contractor's wife, you know, that's it's just that's kind of how it is. And sometimes we're having conversations with people and like, wait a minute, we probably should be looking at the same thing. And it's just we get busy. And the same thing with attorneys: they put their head down, they work really, really hard, and they're working doing their business, but not on their business. And it's you got to take that time and do it. And I know that for me, even if we if I work seven days a week because I'm enjoying what I'm doing and I'm really working hard at what I do. I find that if I don't have that day off, it's really detrimental to my health and to me, and I'm not more efficient. I didn't get more done. There's always something else to do. So I didn't accomplish anything. And I think sometimes we get in that mindset where we think, well, if I work hard, I can get caught up on the weekend. You don't get caught up on the weekend. You really don't. You'll get more caught up if you take the weekend off or take a day to yourself where you actually have that space to kind of not do what you do all day long and rest. It's not a bad thing. It's very overrated, sleep and rest, right? So I think that sometimes the fact that you're taking them out of their element and putting them in a place that's beautiful, they can just focus on themselves. I bet they come back, they're on that airplane and that high level of energy, just thinking that, wow, this has been transformative to me and I want to do every single thing Jaden said. And then sometimes— and I did this when I went to Connect in 2016. I flew back and I had made the decision in the classes there that I was going to start to focus on working only with lawyers. And I can remember flying back and trying to write every single thing that I learned on a piece of paper. It's like brain dumping it down onto this paper because I wanted to be able to implement it. But I was smart enough after all these years to know that I can, like you said, make one little change and you build on it. Then you make another little change. It's kind of like stepping forward into the future and not like I'm not running into it. I'm going to step forward and make these little changes. You might have to tweak things along the way, then it might not look exactly like the path that you envisioned, but at least you're making the steps forward. And then, like you, you want to look back sometimes. And it's one thing good about Facebook Memories. You look back and like, oh, wow, I forgot about that. That's really where I was that far long ago and what I was doing and, and how things have changed dramatically in that space of time that you don't realize with all those little forward steps that you've made this amazing turnaround and you're actually in a better way better place. And then you should start really thinking about where am I going to be in 1 year, 3 years, 5 years? Just like we do tell our clients the same thing, like have some kind of a vision so you can work towards it. And most of the times, I don't know if your clients are like that, but you ask them that question, they don't know. You have to extrapolate that information out of them or turn the question and feed some other questions in to get that out of them because they actually do know, but they don't realize it when they're meeting with you.

Yep, absolutely. Yeah, we have lots of worksheets that we use, uh, to help them get there. And the transformation that I'm trying to create is I want them to stop looking at themselves as a lawyer and look at yourself as a business owner that owns a law firm. And that transformation, even people hearing that, is like, oh wow, that's interesting. You're right. You know, so that's a journey for a lot of people.

Yeah.

Um, and, and one client in particular, um, in the beginning, she, she focused more on her husband's business, right? And she didn't really think that the law firm thing was going to pop off. And then, um, she came to one of my live events, she joined the, she joined the coaching program. And next thing you know, now she's flourishing because she used to do business formations. And I'm like, no, That's not gonna happen. Like, you working with me, business formations is not going to get you to that million dollars. We need to ramp it up a bit. So now her average client is paying her over $10,000 a year, and she has like a, a recurring subscription type service, uh, and she has a narrow niche market. And we've— and we go back and forth with it sometimes, that sometimes they want to quit, and I'm like, no, let's do at least 6 months. with this before we quit. Let's, let's, let's do that. Because if I had quit early on, it took at least a year and a half for me to really penetrate the lawyer market. Because as you all know, like you said, they know— they, they're trained to question everything.

Yeah.

And so at first people were kind of apprehensive, like, who is this young kid? You know, I have a baby face. I try to cut all my hair off and, and do the bald thing thinking that was gonna make me look older and have people take me more serious. No, that That didn't work.

That didn't work.

So, you know, um, after, after seeing the guy in the hat at the 3rd lawyer event, it's like, okay, let me take him a little more serious. After seeing the guy in the hat at ClioCon 2 years in a row, let me take him a little bit more serious now and let me go ahead and book a consultation. And so, um, you know, sticking to it when you know— like, there's 2 different types of faith, stepping out on faith, right? There's stepping out on a blind faith Uh, with no plan and it doesn't make sense. To those people, I say good luck to you. But then there's the stepping out on faith when you have a business model that you know works. It's a proven model.

It is.

It works. But it's just, it's just taking a while for you to get there. If you stick to it, then you're good to go.

I love it because most people think they need to have it all written out, needs to be all— it's the process. of learning and finding those moments that are trip-overs. Like, they could be micro failures, they could be little wins. You just can't see them in that way because you're in the forest and you can't see the road ahead. And so, but I love the idea that you would take somebody's mindset and just remind them. And I feel like this happens for Linda and I. We are business owners like you. We get it. It's But you're really helping them see it from that other side of the perspective, which you're just churning sometimes. You're in the weeds. You just—

Well, if you can refocus them, you know, what was your— what were you doing 3 weeks ago today at this very moment? And they can't tell you, but it was an emergency 3 weeks ago today at this moment. What are you doing today? Because you have gone from 3 weeks ago to now and you're still frustrated. How are we fixing it going forward?

I thought you were asking me what I was doing. I was like, I was in Portugal. I don't know what you're asking me for.

I'll call you later, Sarah.

I'm like, I know what I was doing, but I see what you're saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then they, they find somebody, or Jaden finds them in the world, and all of a sudden there's solutions, there's a plan. There's, you know, you took the lady to $10,000 per client per year from whatever it was. You know, and suddenly there's not as many emergencies, are there?

Right.

It's more manageable too, right, when you start to have so many clients, but you focus on the more ones that pay you more, that get— that want more from you. And it's the same thing.

That will listen to you.

Yeah, it seems that way, right? I mean, you know, we, we had our apartments up north, and when we were charging a higher rent and we had made them to a higher level, we had different people, set of people come in. We had whole separate different problems from You know, different things that we had to do comparable to like when they were like lower. We just had different—it was different problems, but it was like it was easier and more manageable when we had started to make improvements to them so that the rents were higher and the people that were moving in took better care of the unit than what we had in the past. So it's kind of the same thing when it comes to your clients. If you've got a client, you want to be appreciated and you want to be valued. And if you feel that that relationship with your client is not. not seeing the value, then maybe it's time to move on and move on to somebody that does appreciate what you do and what your value is and that they don't feel like you're nickel and diming them. And I know that's the same way for lawyers' clients. They feel like every little charge on their bill, it's like, ah. So a subscription model is definitely something that's better to work towards for— it's just little payments all through the year. They could pay the same amount if they were being with these long bills, but then they're on retainer. It's better for everybody because it's better for the client, better for the attorney for sure, because the cash flow is there. But it's funny how when you start to work with clients, if you can, for us even, it's to be able to work in that advisory space is so much better. I mean, and there's a market for the little small people that just do, you know, write up clients that you just go in, head down, do the work, don't talk to them.

Mm-hmm.

That space, it just doesn't excite me personally. And I could see that it wouldn't be something you'd want to do. You want to have these clients that you're helping and you're seeing the results and it feels good to watch them grow. And we see so much growth with the law firm clients. I mean, I mean, it's amazing sometimes when you take that deep breath when you're doing the year-end work and you're like, wow, look where they were. They've been in those 5 years and pull that, you know, pull that profit and loss up for 5 years and look at it and say, wow, look where they were and look where they are. And it's— you just want to say bravo, you know, you just did a great job. And, you know, they listen to you, they listen to you about staffing things, they listen to you about HR, they listen to— like, there's a whole broad scope of places that we can help. We're not just data entry people, which is, which is a nice thing that we get to do with clients.

I think. Yep. Yeah, for sure. And I've realized that, you know, they, they say that— I feel like the lowest paying clients are always the ones that have the most issues.

Yes.

And I remember being in a really bad place early on in business when my pricing was just so low. Um, you know, $699 a month. I'm even ashamed to even say that out loud. But, you know, when I was doing that— now I don't even put $99 or $97 on It's either $2,000, $2,500, $5,000. This is what it is. Okay. And, and I'm not even going to second guess it because I know the value that I bring. And I've even had clients tell me, you know, I didn't even know that there was so much value that I would get because they did— they've never worked with a consultant before. And when in CPA, they just think do taxes. And that's not all we do.

Yeah.

Some, some just do that, but there are special ones. I want to say, like, there is a special group of us in this that we've really— we care about what those numbers are. We care about the quality of the work. It— we are non-transactional style accountants here. We're relationship-building accountants in this space.

Oh yeah.

And there's a few of us that are like that, and then there are a few out there that are the opposite. But you know what, you get— you're getting what you pay for there, and you're not going to be able to answer those questions at the end of the road. What are my metrics? Where is my growth? And if you're thinking you will, you're just knocking on the same door. Was that bang your head on the same wall over and over, you get the same result? Like, you have got to figure out a better system if that's what you're looking for. And, you know, I feel like you, when you said it early on, there are times where you feel really bad when someone moves on. And we all do happen. But there are times where I'm like, well, that might be a blessing in disguise. And I wasn't aware of it either. Yeah. Sometimes it's like how you look at it, I guess it's how you cut the pie. Absolutely.

Yeah. This was great having you, Jayden. I mean, it's been fantastic. So great to finally get this to happen because we've been trying to put this on the calendar for like, what, a year now? Something like that. So it's been great having you. We love having you in the Law Lab for sure.

Yeah.

But it's been great to get to know you, and I like it. I just, I just travel vicariously through you on Facebook. So anybody who wants to follow him, like, probably Instagram and everywhere else, but I see you on Facebook, and it's, it's incredible to see the journey and like the beginning of your— and then you get to follow all the trips. This is really fun.

Yeah, definitely.

Jaden, thank you so much.

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Appreciate it. Yeah.

To support the Accountants Law Pod, don't forget to like, share, and leave a review. And if you haven't already, hit that subscribe button on YouTube or wherever you enjoy your favorite podcasts. If you have questions or topic requests, shoot us an email at info@accountantslawpod.com or send us a message through our website, accountantslawpod.com. To join our weekly Accountants Law Lab mastermind sessions, head over to accountantslawlab.com to sign up. And to learn more about Jaden's retreats, his company, and read his books, follow the links in the show notes below. Great conversation. Everybody that's listening, sign up and go off with Jaden to some magical island in the Caribbean this year.

I'm sure there's a way that you have to sign up too. Like, you have to meet some qualifications. Oh, look, there'll be a link in our notes.

But yeah, for sure. Okay, go to the Caribbean, go Jaden.

The door is not revolving.

You can write it off. There you go. There's your, there's your hook. Thanks, everybody.

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.