Financial Planning for Attorneys with Silver Oak Wealth Planning

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Steven Libhart. Hello and welcome back to the Accountants LawPod. This week, Steve and I are going to be having a great conversation. I feel it's something that is worthy of a conversation we should have multiple times and keep at the forefront. And we are going to be speaking with 2 gentlemen here from Silver Oak Wealth Planning, Mark Candler, and Les McMullen, or Mick— yeah, McMullen. Okay, make sure I get your names right because I want to make sure I pronounce that. And we're going to talk about wealth management for attorneys and law firms. But those of us that are not in that industry and are just loving listening to this, I think it's going to be a wealth of information, and maybe it's a part one of many to come. So let's kick this off, Steve. These are some dear friends of yours, and I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about it.

I've been working with them for, oh, what, maybe about 3 years, Mark, or so. We— Mark and I started in a mastermind group together and kind of things spun off from there. And we've referred some business to their firm and we share some common clients together. And it's a great synergy that's going on. And these guys are really different than a lot of their type of business. And you're going to learn that today because they can really customize a lot of things. And they have a, you know, a suite of products too that appeals to attorneys. And I think they're going to share some ideas with us on how we can approach our attorney clients when we, as their trusted advisors, can see what their financial picture looks like on the books and when it is an appropriate time to put them in touch with people like Mark and Les. So we, we really want to welcome you guys today. Thank you for being here, and we're very excited that you're here.

Yeah, it's exciting to be here. Thank you. Great to be here.

Wonderful. So that's interesting that you brought up, Steve, that point of wealth management when we see these, because we have these windfalls, we like to call them windfall moments for some firms. And then you're in the crisis mode of tax planning. But we need beyond that. We need to look beyond that.

Well, we can anticipate ahead of time when we're seeing things in their financial picture. You know, we work really hard with law firms to get everything clean and flowing really well with their books. And then that gives us that opportunity to talk about their key performance indicators, of which financial ones are so super important. And, you know, the door's open right there for us to say, hey, have you thought about investing this money instead of spending it on a new car? You know, the car you have, fine. You know, those sort of things. And we've got the vehicle for you to do that.

Yeah. So what does this look like? Lesson, Mark? How do you— where do we go with a conversation like this?

Yeah, thanks for asking. I think the first thing you have to understand is that there's a lot of work that has to go into the background before we start talking about solutions, because every law firm, every lawyer is different. And within a law firm, you're often going to have competing goals. And so we want to understand if The planning is primarily to increase return, to have efficient cash flow, to have money available for when times are tough. If we're going to try to take money out of the firm tax efficiently, if we're going to try to have a succession plan, a partner buy-in or a buy-out without paying excess tax, there's all kinds of stuff going on. And that can be difficult if you're talking about one attorney, but often the firms we're talking about are going to have how many partners?

Yeah.

3, 5, 10. And so if you do the work ahead of time, then the problem solving is pretty organized and less dramatic than it otherwise would be. So that's the approach we try to take.

That's interesting. I like what you said about competing goals. Because understand, I mean, sometimes you do feel like you're in a competition or you're on trial. So when you're looking at partnerships that want to attract a new equity partner in, you kind of alluded to a few things there. And what does that look like when maybe it's not a tangible cash purchase in a buy-in and what happens there?

Right. Well, I think it depends and you just have to structure the buy-in or the buyout for the individual firm and what they're trying to accomplish. And it may be that you want someone because they're really bright, but they're young and don't have a bag of cash to buy in as a partner.

Yeah.

It may be that you are trying to have someone retire and someone take their place and to do that without a lot of excess Taxation. There are so many ways that you can design this kind of stuff. And I think that the mistake— I would say there are 2 primary mistakes that are made here. The first mistake is they never get around to planning at all. And there's enough money swimming around that they just do it inefficiently and they still survive.

That happens so often. So often.

Right. And it's okay, right? They're making enough money that they can just live with it. But why live with it? If you can find an efficient path, that is fantastic. The second is that someone hears about a possible solution and that it seems like the only path moving forward, instead of understanding that there's a decision tree with lots of branches and lots of leaves at the end. And that if you take a little bit of time and collect good information at the front end, then you can start to eliminate or determine whether there's an optimistic opportunity. And you may end up with 2 or 3 or 4 solutions that you would end up presenting to the financial committee and then to the overall partner committee. And you just arrive at the right solution without a lot of drama. And by the way, when I say that there are competing goals, this is not particularly a negative thing. You might just have something as simple as my kids are 17 and 18 and your kids are 3 and 4.

Sure.

And there's no wrong or right. We're just at a different place and have different things we're trying to accomplish.

Yeah.

And so if we can collect all that information, wow, it gets much easier after that. And then we're just using tax laws efficiently, we're using investments efficiently, we're using whatever it may be efficiently, and people are happy.

And to build on what Les is saying, I think a lot of our clients look at, look at us as being different and truly partners and a team because We focus on the qualitative aspects of financial planning in addition to the quantitative aspects of financial planning. And by that, I mean when we work with people, we often help them really uncover for the first time what is so important to them and why. What is the end goal? What do they want life to look like in 20 years, in 30 years? What values, what money do they want to pass to kids and grandkids?

Yeah.

I mean, the stuff that's— we chose the name Silver Oak Wealth Planning very intentionally because we associate often people's true inner values and their vision with the core of a tree, the roots, the roots and trunk. And what we experience with a lot of our clients is they've worked with advisors, they've worked with Brokers are really more salespeople that are trying to get them into a specific product or a specific solution without really understanding at a more macro level what is really important and why. So we really want to have a firm qualitative understanding and help people really often for the first time discover what their real values are and their real vision is. And then when we implement solutions, our third partner, Dave Owens, is just a gifted professor.

Wow.

And he makes, you know, Loom videos to whiteboard a specific solution that people aren't understanding because we really want people to understand every piece of the puzzle. And how it all comes together and how it relates to their big why, what is important.

I can imagine in that process, that's such a custom process. I'm so glad you detailed that out a little bit more. I love, I will say before I go too far, I love how you brought in the visual tree because I saw your slide deck here a little bit and it So beautiful and so symbolic, and I love that. So it's interesting to me is when you're looking at a person, multiple people, let's say multiple in a firm, and to what you were just saying, Les, is you're— they're, they're— one may not know because they're so young, right? Or one is in the middle and so uncertain. It sounds like your process goes through a very detailed lane of, you're almost helping them create their why without knowing it. Yeah.

Yeah. I think we want to help them define scope of work, but at the end of the day, they're going to help us define scope of work.

Sure. Yeah.

We may be in a circumstance where, let's say we're talking about a massive firm, there may be 50 partners.

Sure.

To figure out a corporate plan based on the values of 50 individuals, Would be quite a thing.

It's quite a thing.

Sometimes there's just some agreement on some simple stuff. We need a better version of our 401. We're missing some stuff and we're perhaps paying too much and it's just not efficient. And it's, it's the simple thing to do first.

Yeah.

And perhaps there are some senior partners that we want to benefit and there's ways to do that with qualified planning and we can do that. Perhaps we're worried about death and disability of partners that are primary relationships to our largest clients, and we want to handle that. So sometimes it's tactical. The best version, the best work, the most fulfilling work, the work where the relationship will still be ongoing 25 years from now, is when we get to do what Mark said.

Yeah.

And, and so that would be the tree with the deepest roots. That would be the tree that does well in the hurricane, to force the analogy a little bit. But sometimes people just want us to solve a tactical problem, and we can do that as well. And sometimes you have to earn the trust to build those deep roots. And so what we like to do is meet people where they live, tell them what's possible, and narrow down what would be helpful for them in the moment, and then try to build a longer— relationship where, again, we get deeper and deeper into the things that are going to make their lives better, not just their law practices or the law firms better. Yeah.

Going beyond. I mixed you up there, I guess, with the split screen. I got you mixed up. Sorry about that.

I could see where maybe you take an associate or a junior attorney who's younger.

Okay.

You really help them with their roadmap and you help position them through their journey in the law firm to where they may end up having the financial wherewithal when the time comes and they can safely feel like they can buy into the firm and become a partner.

Yeah.

I mean, that's— and I've been through, I've seen some of Dave Owens, your third partner. I've seen some of his work in the past. I've worked with him on some things and he's just amazing at putting these sort of things together for people. And the second piece of that that I wanted to bring up was and ask you is what kind of demographics are you seeing in age groups of people with their money and what are they doing these days?

Oh, boy. The second question—

It's a tough one.

Yeah, it's a long answer, but I will try to delve into that. For the first thing that you mentioned, I want to say that everything you just said is true. And also, every financial planning needs to have flexibility.

Yes.

So, we've all thought about ourselves.

Yeah.

And we vary in age a little bit, but the way we feel about the world in 20 years is probably not the way we feel about the world today. The things that matter to us in 20 years, you know, I have a 17— well, he turns 17 tomorrow and an 18-year-old in September. And the way I feel about my responsibilities to the world will change 20 years from now when they're close to 40.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so, and that's even more true when you're 25, just outta law school.

Mm-hmm.

And, and so we want to give them a, an efficient path forward. Save this much, save it tax efficiently. Let's not waste your money. Be ready for partnership. But we also want to build a plan that works in tough times and in good times. It, it works whether you have 7 kids or 1 or none. It works on whether or not you become really wealthy or your health is not what you thought it would be. I think that's really, really important. And that is, I think, planning, capital P. And we don't want to ever lose that for the spreadsheets or the dollar columns. We also, by the way, don't want to just live in values and never get to the ways that we fund those values. The money matters. It's just not the only thing that matters.

That's so interesting because it's so true of— we have children around the same age, so it's so true of our viewpoints now. And also, I think succession planning of if your child is— if it's a legacy firm right now, we deal with a lot of legacy firms and that transition. It's a question of like, what's the value of the business now today? And that's that plan of what that looks like for that child of that owner. What does that look like? How do you plan that out? What are the benefits? What's the entity structure that you are? Do you need to change? You're going from 2 to 1. You went from 3 to 2 to 1. Those are all, I mean, and those go beyond. It's interesting because they need a wealth manager. Those go beyond just A day-to-day financing and a tax moment. That's like a whole plan, like to your point. So I don't even know how you begin to navigate that. I'm part of it right now with someone and we don't know the exact day of the out. We know what the goal is in mind. We don't have the price. They're like, well, do we go out and get an assessment, a formal assessment? This is just between family. I'm sure all these questions come up to both of you frequently as you're talking to— Prospective clients or current clients.

Well, and sometimes it requires other team members, um, a good exit planner. Not all exit planners are good, but a good exit planner is worth their weight in gold. Yeah. And, and often there are, you know, normally a transition from a business does not happen because of careful planning. It happens because of death or disability. And then you have circumstances where Let's say I was an attorney and my son wanted to take over the firm. Great. But there's a really good chance that I also have a partner or 2 or 3. And so it's not as simple as I hand him the keys one day. And there's also a really good chance that the value of that firm is part of my retirement planning. So, you know, how does my son buy me out even if it is simple? These are not hard things to deal with if you have some time. And by the way, the amount of tax you can save, which is extra equity in the firm, if you think about it, if, if my successor is paying for my equity in the firm with triple tax dollars, he's paying me a lot less than he could.

Mm-hmm.

So there's just so much here.

Mm-hmm.

And it's just dotting all your i's, crossing all your t's, and, and not missing things, which is again why we, We engage with our third partner. He doesn't miss things. He is very, very detail-oriented. And I think, you know, it's why the 3 of us are much stronger than any 2 of us.

So how did you all get started? Like, how did you start your firm together?

I'll take that.

I've been in the business for 21 years and I was with 2 very large corporate Primarily insurance companies for the first 11, and then the next 5. I've been with Maya Wealth for 5 years, and Maya is just a fantastic culture and a fantastic firm. We are a truly independent RIA registered investment advisory. We're all fiduciary advisors, and we had a great gift that a little over 2 years ago, my business partner for the last 7 years, David Owens. And I met the great Les McMullen, and he's got a very different background than I've got. Dave's got a very different background than the both of us. And about a year and a half ago, we started building Silver Oak Wealth Planning, and we really had the opportunity to build a firm on our own terms and really build the firm that I wish I had joined 21 years ago. But there was no such thing. So we've really taken strengths and different experiences from, like I said, our very different backgrounds and really built something that, you know, we have fun. We're very, very proud of it. And we have 3 great people in the back office, Stacy and Chandler, and a more junior advisor, Tom Gillen. And, you know, One aspect that is really fun for us is when we can become part of a, for example, a law firm's culture. And by that I mean that people and businesses and law firms are really starting to realize that financial peace of mind, that financial integrity Really, really overlaps with work effectiveness and work production and the culture of a law firm. Because, you know, when we have the opportunity to really meet with all of the attorneys and, you know, paralegals and administrative people, that, you know, people are really starting to realize that, hey, if people are getting a grasp And some peace of mind financially when they're a brand new 28-year-old attorney or 33-year-old paralegal or, you know, uber successful 60-year-old senior partner. You know, people really need to find their own peace of mind and feel like the course they're taking is going to get them to where they, where they want to go. And, you know, it's You know, as employment law, everybody is very familiar that you you can never let any any let anybody go because of age. And and really, it's astonishing to to see. You know, when we really get to dive into people's lives, the people that are 65 and 70 and 75, and they're not retiring because they can't afford to. That's devastating.

They don't want to work.

And quite often people don't want them there, but they have not planned their lives out. They haven't found their path and their peace of mind. And that really enables people at age 40 to say, hey, I think when I'm 60 or 65, I get to live life on my own terms. I get to retire with dignity, retire with grace.

Yeah.

You know, that's a real movement that's occurring. So we love it when we have a partnership with a law firm that realizes we can help strengthen their culture, strengthen their profitability, and let people live life on their own terms. That's fun.

I love it.

I have a question.

Go ahead.

No, go ahead.

Just quickly, one thing I'd add to that is that the people that are either speaking here or listening to this podcast, I think, are generally in 3 groups. Largely, a very small number of financial planners, some bookkeepers in the broadest definition of that term, and then some attorneys. And I think we all get reduced to these clichés.

Yes.

We all know the cliché of a bookkeeper. We all know the cliché of an attorney. We all know the cliché of a financial planner. And, and by one of the things that we really wanted to achieve with our firm was to give people a 3-dimensional sense of what a financial planner was, that we're real human beings, we care about people, we hug our kids, we don't kick the dog. Like, we're, we're human beings.

Yeah.

And, and so are most attorneys, and so are most bookkeepers.

Yeah.

And, and so it's a real gift To be— we're all early 50s. I think Dave may not be quite 50 yet. And to have enough runway in front of us to experience what it's like to build the firm you wish you could have joined and enough experience behind us. I think we're at 51 years of combined experience to have a real vision for what a great firm should be.

Yeah.

And so That's been really, really great, frankly.

And it feels good to have it in your own space and be able to speak to it and offer it. Because what I'm hearing too, and you both kind of said this independently, is when you're building this sort of wealth value basically to an individual, you're changing the culture. You're hearing, you're kind of diving into a space that good firm owners truly that want that for retention. They want to drive it because they understand I'm no better than the person sitting next to me. I mean, sure, if you're replaceable, okay, fine. But it's all that trait. There's so much behind refilling the seat. The stats I learned over last week's conference of just hiring and firing and hiring and firing and retention and all this—

And the cost involved.

So much cost. It's higher than we think. And but to be around a people-centric style firm, and we're in like professions, we all are running in like professions. It's a service-based business. So we're all kind of in that same mode. And I love what you're saying because your partner, you're actually doing what I feel like is— I'm a relationship builder. You're partnering in. And it's nice to hear that you're actually going in at a deeper level. So it's not just about the business owners or the potential junior associates coming up. It's also about everyone else that builds that firm up. And it's so important. And I just don't know what that looks like as far as an offering goes, but I feel like it's so beautiful to have. It's something I, I'm kind of like, okay, sign me up.

Well, the cliché is that a successful attorney is this like really hard, super smart, That is the cliché. Right? That's the cliché.

Yeah.

My experience is the vast majority of successful people are successful because they're good with other people.

Yes.

Probably also smart and hardworking.

Yep.

Right. But good with other people and people that are good with other people, it's because they respect each other and they build a culture where you come to work in a good mood because we just have more emotional energy. We just do better work if we're, if we're happy. And so again, we take our cues from the client.

Yeah.

But we do want them to know what's available to have a deeper relationship if they're open to that conversation. And we certainly want them to understand that we want their lowest-paid employee to also have accomplishment and success and a useful financial life as well as the CEO. senior partner. Because if we've accomplished that, I mean, look, it's good business for us.

Yeah.

Because the entire firm is going to tell people about us. Sometimes really cool people allow us on podcasts, right? It's just, it's good business, but it's also good human being. It's just, it allows us to go to bed and sleep well.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Steve, you had a question.

Well, I wanted to, I wanted to take a little bit more of a deep dive into a particular subject that you and I talked a little bit about last— a couple of weeks ago. We're coming into the time of the year when law firms typically prepare to pay out bonuses to all of the employees, the year-end bonus. And that's one of the rites of passage in a law firm. Everybody expects their, you know, their year-end bonus. And I've witnessed over the 20-some-odd years that I'm— I mean, I don't know, 20, 21 years, something like that, working with law firms. that quite often that time of the year will come up and people that are maybe not happy because they don't have that culture going on in their law firm, they kind of hang out until the bonus comes along and then they move on to the next firm.

Yeah.

And for those of us that work with the accounting side of law firms, what would be some of the ways that you could turn that around and say, instead of giving out a $10,000 bonus, Let's turn it into this product. And that helps tie that employee to us. They can see that this investment can grow beyond the $10,000 bonus by doing X, Y, and Z. And, you know, we're not taking— what, you know, what's the percentage right now? Is it 20%, 22%, something like that that the IRS levies for bonus pay? You know what?

Bonus compensation? Yeah.

Got it. What would we say when we see that they've all of a sudden got $50,000, $60,000 in bonuses coming out? What's our sales pitch to them to get them to you guys where they're going to get more bang for their buck and their employees might be happier in the long run?

Yeah, well, I think there's a couple things here. The first thing is, and at the end we'll talk about this a little bit more, but we're happy to spend 30 minutes on a Zoom call with anyone who listens to this and just talk about individual situations. No quid pro quos necessary. It's goodwill and we're happy to do it. The second thing is that there's an emotional answer and a financial answer.

Hmm.

So, the problem with bonuses is that one is going to be taxed heavily. That's a bummer. Now, sometimes people need the money. If I'm going to use it to put a down payment on the house, then it is what it is. You have to tax it. I'll take what's left. I'll put the down payment on the house. But there are plenty of people, especially your more senior, more valuable attorneys, they got plenty of money in the bank. They got plenty of money in investments. They don't need this money accessible, and they really don't want the tax. So what if we could give them a choice and have a more tax-efficient way to access that? Now, typically, law firms are doing the basic stuff like a 401, but there's so much more that you can do there. The second piece is that half of your people are going to be unhappy with the bonus they received. Right. It becomes an entitlement, and I thought I was going to get fifty grand, and I got forty-seven grand, and I never liked Bob, and you know, and off we go.

And off we go.

Because you get to a transactional culture, and I think it's very difficult to show people you care about them with cash.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, you guys are willing to if you you know I'm willing to accept the money if you want to try it, but. There are better ways to let your employees know you care about them and to know that you value how their life is going. And so I guess what I would say, Steve, is that I would want to have a conversation with the partnership and have them understand what they're trying to accomplish. Have them explain to me where they're struggling. And let's see if we can come up with a solution that scratches all their itches. We usually can, but we're happy to do the early problem solving without being engaged. We do good work. Once we get that far down the rabbit hole, we end up with clients. So it's good business for us. But if it's not the right fit, it's not the right fit. That's okay.

Well, you know, we, we, uh, You know, on our side of the fence, on the accounting side of the fence, in the Law Lab, we've discussed this with people as far as, you know, there's this general fear out there that AI is going to take over our jobs. And as long as we are, number one, the strong trusted advisor to our legal clients, AI can't touch that.

Right.

And we're coming up to that 4th quarter of the year, and I'd really love to have some really safe dialogue with these, with these accounting people, these, these bookkeepers in our Law Lab. I think these guys are coming to the Law Lab, aren't they, Sarah and Tierra? I think so. Um, and, you know, giving them the tools of, hey, I see this in your books, I see this in your cash flow, let's really talk about this. Did you know there are options? Did you know there's a better way or another way to do this that you might not even know about? You know, and creating that, that that safety on this side of the fence so that they feel really good talking to their clients about it and getting them driven to someone like you who can take the ball and run with it then.

So, Steve, I'm thinking of how many times you're running a bonus, right? A flight on that. What is the actual dialogue when you're bringing on a new associate? How is that compensation model set up? At that point, do you— for us to be triggers to be able to have a deeper conversation, But it's interesting that you're saying, Les, that there are other ways. And I'm thinking in my mind, I'm tangibly trying to understand what could be potentially some other ways that you could have this. I mean, right now, I'll just personally, from our side, we're in the thick of, we don't want equity. We don't want— they have some staff that wants to be somewhat attached to the firm in an equity base. A non-equity is the part they want a name of a partner, but non-equity really is what needs to happen here because that owner does not want to give that up. And then what we also want is to make sure that compensation remains at this peak because we want to be number one in that city or state.

Right.

And, but we also want to have these values and this aligns with your type of clientele. Like, to me, what I'm hearing and seeing is like, oh, This actually, this is groomed for that deeper level of management. So it trickles into all of these people, not just the firm owner. That's what it sounds like.

And you can have someone who is a non-equity partner, but they're still an executive in the firm.

Yes.

As defined by IRS guidelines. And so we can have an executive comp plan that includes them, that's going to give them tax-efficient compensation.

There we go.

There we go. That's beautiful.

Yeah, we could do a hybrid. We could have a situation where you get some— you get a bag of cash at the Christmas party, but you also have tax-efficient compensation that triggers. You can have all kinds of ways to handle this stuff. You can solve other problems. Um, you, you may have a firm that, that is trying to figure out tax-free income in retirement, which is a real challenge if you're making, you know, lawyer-type money, uh, because you can't do a Roth IRA. There's just— so it takes some real problem solving.

Yeah, yeah.

There are things we can do, but we can also get enough trust so that when the individual attorneys are asking about this stuff, We just problem solve with them individually. And the firm introduces us as, hey, this is a safe space. You can have conversations with these guys. They're all the way in Denver. They're not going to show up at the house. It's going to be fine. And we can fix some things. It's just good.

They're not going to be knocking on your door because I think, was it Mark? You brought it up. You said it really well, which is this cliché of like, what is But unfortunately, wealth management is not spoken in the way for some people in a way that's nice. It's always about, okay, you're a broker, what are you going to do now? What do I need to meet? And I like that you opened it up with that dialogue initially. It's more than that. It's way more than that. It's like us people.

One, there are no magic products, right? Every investment, as an example, has pluses and minuses and what you're trying to accomplish is to have the appropriate characteristics and be efficient within the asset classes that have those characteristics. So I don't come to you, Sarah, if you were a client of mine, I'm not going to say, oh, here's this thing you didn't know about, and oh my God, your life is going to be so changed. Like, we're going to go immediately here to Disneyland. We're just going to stop wasting money on inefficient things.

Yeah.

And by doing that over the course of a couple of decades, It's a fortune. By not wasting money, you end up with so much more money.

Yeah.

It's not magic. It's just being good at adulting.

Well, it's so on point that you say this. And I have to say, I have to ask you this burning question because it kills me when we get this. Well, I saw this on TikTok. I'm like, oh my God, are you for real right now?

Yeah.

How old are you? And you're telling me you saw it on TikTok. And so what are you guys dealing with with this? I've got to ask because it's so real in our profession.

With online?

Well, when you're getting like, well, I saw this. I mean, obviously you've had this in your profession. My friend is doing X. Well, you, in my mind, have just told me this beautiful piece that you've built for them. This is tailored to you.

Yeah.

It's not your friend.

That's why I like these guys.

I love it. Yes, I know. I can eat it up.

And Sarah, the answer is don't be defensive because look, yeah, you probably haven't experienced this, but there are probably 2 or 3 good ideas on TikTok. I don't know, I'll ask my son. But I have no problem if Steve is an example, sharp guy, you know, like good conversations with him. If Steve knows something I don't know, educate me. I'll do further research. I might come back and say great ideas. Weird that you brought it to me as your financial planner, but let's move with it.

Yeah, yeah.

What's more important though is that because your buddy at the golf club told you something, you don't think that's the only path down the road.

Yeah.

Let's make sure we understand all the choices.

Yes.

It's why I moved to this firm. I was with another firm for 15 years. I moved to this firm because true independence means That when I'm problem solving, I'm thinking about clients. I'm not thinking about somebody in my back office. I'm not thinking about my mortgage. I'm not thinking about any of those things.

Yeah.

It allows us the freedom to be good planners. And unfortunately, in our industry, a lot of the people, even the people with good hearts and good minds, don't have the freedom to be as good as they'd like to be. I'm proud to say that Dave and I finally do. And it's really wonderful.

That's awesome. I love it. It's nice. It's refreshing to be like, why I do what I do. It's refreshing to be on this side for me. It's for me. It's the way I want to work. But just side notes here, just like, we are on TikTok, so we're going to have some good advice. We might have some short clips from this because you guys have put out some really good stuff. But I kid you not, I have some very Well-respected people that will hit me up and I'm thinking, okay, let me think on that. I'm not exactly sure where the context is. It's to your point. I like the way you handle it, Les. It's true. You're like, okay, well, maybe it's got some relevance. Maybe I need to look into it and I'll get back with you.

But we run into in this industry so often. Let's talk about software for a second. I mean, Sarah, how often do we run into why did you pick this software? And they're like, well, I called my friend at the law firm down the street and he said it was great, so I got it. And we find out they're in the wrong place at the right time. And, you know, that sort of thing. And that's, that's what makes Mark and Les and Dave so different.

Yeah.

Is they have this customization, they have this approach that's not just, you know, the storefront investment broker in the mall, some strip mall somewhere. These guys really are customizable. They listen. They've got wonderful products. I just brought a law firm to them Recently, who they were able to help them, the managing partner, with her investments as well as set up her 401 plan. And I haven't got to follow up with you, Les, but it was seamless. The 401 plan was absolutely seamless. We did the payroll through Gusto, it flowed over, and the money was invested and done. We didn't have to go somewhere and enter it. It was just sweet.

Yeah, because Gusto's smiling.

Yeah, particular plan, it's a pretty simple 401. But the client doesn't have to worry about the 5500. They don't have to worry about the investment policy statement, the things you don't want to have to worry about when you're at a fairly small law firm.

Yes.

And so I just think that's, that's just kind of be efficient. Life is hard enough.

Right. And the bookkeeper is not having to sit at year end and get all the data together for the 5500 and all that stuff that we've done in the past. It's all seamless through these people.

Well, with the TPA providers and all of those things that you have to do, it's gotten so costly for some. Um, the product. Yeah, I'm a huge, obviously, Augusto user. We, there's Betterment, there's Guideline, those things. But on top of that, are you two and your other business partner solidifying the next level, which I feel like is there for so many people, not, not just law firms, but I mean, obviously we're speaking to attorneys. But there is this in-between. It's like, well, I've done everything I need to here. Now what? Well, honestly, I don't know. I mean, that's on you, right? And that's where you two would come in so succinctly to help with those conversations.

Yeah.

I think it's true. Money doesn't buy happiness, but if you understand your values and you understand what the money's for, Money buys happiness. It really does. You just have to know what you really care about. And I don't know if you guys have experienced this, but I have. We're lucky enough that we work with some pretty successful people. How many people have you seen that just bought their 8th car and they're just not any happier than they were when they had 3 cars when they were starting? That's right. Yeah. Because they know that there's something missing and they just haven't figured out what it is. And so I'm not a therapist. I wouldn't be good at that job. But if we can get people to ask themselves the questions about like what really gives us peace and fulfillment and, you know, on our last day of life, what do we want to look back on and say, I'm proud of that?

Mm-hmm.

It makes being their financial planner easier because now we know what the money is for. And if we know what the money's for, we can find the exact characteristics to build an efficient plan that doesn't waste any of it.

I love it because it is such a hard place to navigate between looking at, like you said, the disability, the long-term care, any of the other financial planning. What are the assets that you hold personally versus professionally? How is that tied? How does that succession plan work? And Mom, if you're listening, I know you're getting some good tidbits here. So she listens. She loves to listen. Um, so yeah, there's a, gosh, I, I mean, uh, so for, for people starting out with you, um, it's best, I mean, what's the best, I guess, client profile for you all? Like what, what looks like a good profile to you?

I mean, the first thing we look for is good people.

Uh, yes.

I'm very, very happy to say that we're all far enough into our careers and we had built our own personal practices. To the extent that we get to work with good people.

Yeah.

Beyond that, all we're looking for is people where good planning can be of benefit.

Okay.

And, and so my youngest client is half my age. My oldest client is, goodness gracious, almost twice my age. And our net worth ranges significantly.

Sure.

Yeah, we do a ton of work on complicated, thoughtful tax planning from the financial planner side of things.

Sure.

Don't want to be a CPA. I wouldn't be good at that job either. But we work really well with the bookkeepers and the CPAs to create a strategic side for tax planning, not just this year's and next year's return. And so you get a fuller team and a more thoughtful answer sometimes. So because of that, we work with a fair number of high net worth clients. But my largest client represents less than 1% of my income. So when we bring on a new client, I'm not thinking, oh, Christmas is funded, we're okay, right?

Sure. Yeah.

We're thinking about how do we open this relationship in a safe way so that we get to do the very, very best work so that everyone benefits. True symbiosis. The practice owner's happy, the employees and junior attorneys are happy, our team is happy. Everyone is just working towards common goals. And if you define those goals, you get the relationship right early. It's just not that hard. It doesn't need to be tough.

Yeah. Yeah.

I wanted to jump in and say, you know, I love personally working with people that give to philanthropy. That can gift money to nonprofits that they care about. And like Les and I have said, there is no client that we have that has an identical plan or even a similar plan. They're all completely and totally different. But I would say that if somebody is willing to spend typically 3 to 4 to 5 hours total To create a truly holistic financial plan, 99.9% of the time Dave Owens is going to make their plan more efficient. I'm talking about somebody, for example, makes $300,000; they're saving $50,000 a year into a 401 and a taxable. He can put the pieces of the puzzle together to make that. money do more. And when people are, have surpassed their retirement goals, in other words, let's say they want a lifestyle of $25,000 a month net when they're 65. If we can get them to be truly, truly efficient and get a better result out of what they're currently doing, Then I say, would you consider giving additional money to, you know, Children's Hospital, to Craig Hospital, you know, Big Brothers and Big Sisters? And the cases where we have gained much more efficiency and they get to give away some of that money into something that they see changes lives today, every day. I mean, those are people like I mean, those are real teammates, real partners, because they literally get teary-eyed because they're, instead of giving $20,000 a year, they're giving $40,000 a year.

I get teary-eyed just hearing it because I believe so strongly. Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm very biased. My mom was director of corporate giving at Children's Hospital throughout pretty much my entire life. So, you know, that That really touches me when we can make people that are more successful capable of giving more, changing lives. That's really cool.

Yeah.

Really. And I also wanted to emphasize, I mentioned our junior advisor, Tom Gillen.

Yes.

You know, he is super happy to work with a beginning paralegal, you know, a young assistant. You know, one of the things that people just aren't equipped to calculate is that horrible stuff called life insurance, right? Somebody that's just married, they're pregnant, having their first baby, and they say, how much life insurance do I need? And it's like, there is nowhere close to saying 10 times your income or 20 times your income or anything like that. It's like, well, how many kids do you plan on having? Do you want to help with college? Do you want to pay for all of college? You know, do you want to take care of your spouse throughout their retirement?

Yeah.

You know, we need to calculate how much do they make? How many kids are you going to have? Are they going to go to CU or Harvard? Or, you know, it's, it's, it's a puzzle. And there is, at the end of the day, based on what they want, we come back to them and say, you need $1.23 million of life insurance. To cover exactly what you said you wanted to cover, you know, morally and ethically.

Yeah.

If you die in a car accident, yeah, this is exactly what you need to like go to bed and sleep at night and feel—

look at your spouse with a tear in your eye and say, I got you. I got you covered. Yeah.

So, you know, you brought up, Mark, you've got some good pieces in there. Like, you just— you like the salary, just giving some good concrete examples. The other thing I wanted to ask you too on is another thing we face is you've gone out, you're solo, now you've got a partnership, now you're putting together a new operating agreement and you need life insurance, your key man life insurance. What does that look like? How does that value— you know, because then people are a little bit lost in that space. You're bringing up so many wonderful pieces here that are, I think, our listeners Can actually, there's so much value in this.

And there's a lot of stuff that gets done. It just isn't problem solved. Someone's partnership is a great example. And so you do a buy-sell agreement of some sort. Most of them aren't funded with anything.

Yeah.

So it's just hypothetical. And even if they are, they're not there. It's one of those like tick list things. We're rushing to get this thing started.

Yes.

And then most of the time, you never know you made a mistake. And unfortunately, every once in a while, somebody does pass away. Right. And then, boy, I wish we'd problem solved this better. And so what we can do is, again, our best version of our work is full planning and we get some time. But sometimes you just need a tactical problem solved well, thoughtfully. And we've done it a few hundred times. We can, we can do that as well.

Well, quite honestly, as the bookkeepers and accountants on the backside, if we know— we'll use the buy-sell agreement as an example. If we know that's in place, we know that that's been done through you guys, and we know that that is there, then we have tools in place where we can say, are you doing an annual budget? If you're not, let's do this every October. Let's put this together and let's look at the scenario of What is your exit plan? I'm huge on whether you need one or not, always reviewing your exit plan every year and having that in place. And that gives you the opportunity each year then to say, oh, we're now at this point financially, maybe we need to revisit that buy-sell, or maybe we need to, you know, relook at what Les and Mark are doing for us. And, you know, because we have all that information, we can help move things along as well. But if we don't know what we don't know, Where can we go with it? So this is awesome.

Or the conversation, like Mark is saying, the philanthropy part of it, right? You see them giving away like on the side, right? You hear the talk and you want to align some things. It's like, okay, well, let's have a bigger conversation of what this looks like. So you still have the sleep money at night that you know you can plan on. correctly and what those steps to get there, that is so hard to see when you're at the start or in the middle of it.

Well, and also sometimes, Sarah, you can do the philanthropy from within the firm. If you have a partnership group that all agrees on something that's important, then you can be tax efficient within the firm and do it there. And so it depends again, as Mark said, No 2 people are alike. And so what we do better than anything is just ask good questions until we have enough information to give good advice. And then something changes and then we do it again.

And you care. And you care.

That's what planning actually is. It's a long process. It's not an event. And so unfortunately, I think sometimes our career gets pigeonholed into this big fireworks show where we find the perfect portfolio or the perfect policy or the perfect whatever it may be. And the truth of the matter is it's 1,000 small decisions taken with good information that are going to make the big difference in your life.

So true. There needs to be a movie reverse of this. Like, there's always these films that, oh, I've got this going, you know, like all of these little things that people showcase, and that's what they get this model in. Accountants get a bad rap for sure.

Yeah.

I mean, I do have a calculator here. I will use it if I have to, but you just can't fly it off my head. I love this. This has been such a wealthy conversation of just so many good pieces. I don't know, Steve, I think we got to do a part 2 on something if we get deeper into stuff.

Like, absolutely, absolutely. I hope we can bring you guys back and, and we're going to host you in the Law Lab. I think that'll help a lot because that'll be the nuts and bolts side of it all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and one thing we wanted to offer is, is if anybody on this podcast just wants to spend some time and ask us specific questions, we're happy. We'll, we'll have a slide up that gives the contact information. We're happy to schedule a 15 or 30-minute Zoom. Just give us a couple of days and times. We'll confirm. And then we can— it's 15 or 30 minutes. We're probably not going to solve global warming or world peace or anything, but we might be able to send you in the right direction and see if there's a further conversation. If there is, great. If not, again, we're happy to do it.

Yeah, thank you. That's an amazing gift for our listeners, for sure. It's very kind. Thank you so much. And I'm kind of dying to meet now Professor. You guys coined him Professor at the beginning of this.

He's behind the curtain, and he is amazing.

Is he a professor? Is that where— or you guys just self-dubbed him?

He just has that vibe. He just—

I love it.

So the 3 of us have very different strengths and weaknesses, and it's why we work together. He is just the guy that never misses a detail. And he is just, he is just so comprehensive. And to have a planner, capital P, who really cares about it and who does wonderful client service— another characteristic of our industry sometimes is really good plan, never gets updated, never gets followed through on, and so it just starts to erode over time.

Exactly.

Uh, Dave, Dave is not that guy at all, so he's invaluable for us. Shockingly, he doesn't love doing podcasts, right? Totally different characteristics.

Totally get it. Yeah.

So he is— He's way cool. Yeah, he's great. And one-on-one, he's, he's a warm human being. He's, by the way, has 9 kids.

Uh, he's a—

yeah, he's a great— uh, you should each— there's a phenomenal photo of he and his wife and their 9 kids on this bridge. And the first time I saw the photo, I worried for the bridge. But you will love Dave. He's a really good guy. I love it.

Professor. I love it. It's awesome. Well, Steve, you want to take this away, my friend?

Well, Les and Mark, we can't thank you enough for being with us today. And folks out there, if you've enjoyed the podcast, we'd like to invite you to subscribe to it on our YouTube channel. We'd also love it if you'd rate this podcast and share it with your friends. That really helps us out a lot. If you have questions, topic requests, or guest suggestions, you can email us at info@accountantslawpod.com or send us a message through our website, accountantslawpod.com. If you want to join us in the Accountants Law Lab, visit our website at accountantslawlab.com to sign up. And we'd love it if you could follow us on Instagram and TikTok as well. And wherever you listen to your podcasts, you can find us these days.

We'd like to thank you all very much.

Oh, thank you so much. This was such a pleasure. It was a pleasure to meet you both too.

So, you too. Thanks.

Thanks so much for your time.

Have a good one.