How AI Is Transforming Judicial Work: A Conversation with the Hon. Maritza Dominguez Braswell

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Steven Libhart.

Hello everyone, and welcome back to our podcast. We're so excited today. We have a really special guest here, and of course you have Linda, Sarah, and myself, and we're going to be talking about AI in the legal industry today. And I want to introduce somebody who I just absolutely— and I have to say this honestly from my heart— I love this woman. I worked with her. She's a friend. I was at her investiture ceremony. I was invited to that when she became a judge, and my heart was just pounding for her that day. I was so, so proud of her. So our guest today is someone, as I just said, I respect tremendously. And as a judge, she's a thought leader. And someone that I've worked with in my career in a law firm. We worked together in a law firm, and it's Judge Maritza Dominguez Braswell, and she serves as a United States Magistrate Judge in the District of Colorado. And she's at the forefront of one of the biggest shifts facing our profession, which is artificial intelligence in the courts. And we've been talking a lot about it on the podcast and in the Law Lab on Fridays, and so she's a perfect fit for today's podcast. She co-chairs the District of Colorado's AI committee. She recently launched the Judicial AI Consortium, which is a national judges-only forum on AI. Look that one up. That's pretty cool. She teaches Reimagining Justice at the University of Denver and writes extensively on AI and justice. And she also authors the AI Brief for judges across the country. Before the bench, she practiced complex litigation, co-founded a tech-forward law firm, and led teams at the Colorado Attorney General's Office. Experience that deeply informs her practical, grounded approach to innovation in the legal system. As I said, she's a friend, a former employer, and one of the most forward-thinking judicial leaders I know. Judge Braswell, welcome to our podcast.

Thanks so much, Steve. I'm so happy to be here. I was so excited when you reached out, one, just to connect with you, um, because as you said, we're old friends and I love that. But then to hear that you were going to invite me onto this podcast was very exciting. So I'm glad to be here.

This is a big day for all of us. And so we're going to jump right in. And can you expound a little bit further on what I just did in the introduction of what you're doing with AI and the effects of all of that? Because it's just amazing to me.

Yeah, I joke sometimes that these days I feel like all I do is work, parent, and AI. That's it. I don't have time for anything else. You know, every minute that I have that's free time that used to go to just, you know, maybe reading and lounging a little bit and just trying to relax. These days, I really fill it up with AI. And even doing that, I feel like I can't keep up. There's just so much that's happening. It's very exciting on the one hand. It's a little scary on the other hand.

Oh, I'm glad to hear that.

All of those things in exactly one. But yeah, I, like you said, I launched recently with some judicial colleagues the Judicial AI Consortium, which is basically a space where judges can speak candidly about their views on AI.

Nice.

It's really important, I think, for us to have a space where we can talk to each other, not because we're going to consensus build. Every judge has to think about it for themselves and make decisions for themselves about how to use it in their chambers or not use it in their chambers, deal with it when it comes to the courtroom. Those decisions have to be made by each individual. But it helps to connect with each other and learn from each other and share resources and do it in a space where we can be candid with each other. I also, as you said, author this brief that goes out. It's a newsletter, basically, that goes out to judges and court staff every month. And that's really an opportunity. It's kind of— I do it selfishly. It's an opportunity for me to sort of keep my finger on the pulse, right? And at the same time, be able to collect information and share it with others who maybe aren't doing as much to gather this information on a regular basis. And then I regularly write and speak on AI. I do trainings for folks who are interested in understanding how to navigate the issues. It's a time of a lot of uncertainty. So I think people welcome a little bit of guidance. And then when I can, like I said, write articles as well. And then I teach at DU. And the course is specifically focused on AI and law with an emphasis on critical thinking and leadership skills, which I think are going to be so important in the future as you think about how this technology is sort of disrupting the space and changing jobs as we speak. I think it's important to set up new leaders for that. So yeah, doing a lot on it.

Wow.

So this newsletter, if we could back up a little bit, is it just focused specifically on the judges? Or can anybody in the legal industry subscribe So it's specifically for judges and court professionals.

Okay.

The idea is to give something to people who are in the court space thinking about the issues as they come into the courthouse and courtroom. So it's really specifically designed for that audience. I've had requests to expand it beyond that, and so I've been thinking about that, but it's sort of one of the many things on my list to think about and figure out whether I'll expand it or not.

Well, you know, I went to your website, the court's website, and that's where I stumbled on this because I was just stalking you one day. And I saw that, you know, I saw how it was written. And help me out here, how you should present when you come into the court, what some of the guidelines and rules are. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Sure. So I did put— yeah, I think what you're talking about is my guidance on AI, which I have on the court website. So on the court website, each judicial officer has a page, a landing page. And we all post different things, whether it's our practice standards or specific orders that we consider standing orders. I was very deliberate not to post a standing order on AI. A lot of judges around the country have done that.

Wow.

And those orders typically will say either don't use AI in this respect. Initially, those orders sometimes were blanket prohibitions against AI. I think they've morphed now to either limitations and/or requirements that lawyers certify when they are using AI. So these are standing orders that impose requirements on lawyers. I very deliberately did not do that, though. I very deliberately did not issue a standing order. My view on standing orders is that it can have a little bit of a chilling effect, especially on, you know, sort of the solos or small law firms who maybe don't have the same systems in place that the bigger firms do. And I worry that that chilling effect kind of widens that gap, right, in terms of who's getting access. And able to do more with less. And so it is posted instead as guidance. And what I do is provide attorneys with my perspective on how to think about AI, on how to think about it in terms of responsible use, on what to do if you find a hallucination in someone else's brief. There's been a huge spotlight on that, which I worry—

Sure.

—is too big of a spotlight. And so I talk about giving each other a little bit of grace and conferring with each other when you spot something like that. So it's just a guidance document.

Yeah, I was reading through it a little bit. I think it's point number 7, where you've got something in there about how to detect or prevent or at least interrupt. And I thought that was kind of cool, because you're sort of like giving them the structure to, okay, when it's, as you're saying, when you're spotting it, or you're seeing it, how to actually bring it without the bias of utilizing it probably, or how you're going to introduce it or talk about it. So it's interesting how I like the way you've written this. Because it is hard to say. I think with everybody, there's some form of it being used every day in some format, but it's hard to— where is it explicitly said I used AI to do this versus I used it as a tool to help me rewrite it and restructure my thoughts or my opinions? And that's the hardest part, is to understand all of that. Yeah, that's a really—

I do think it's really tough to, you know, when— if there are orders that require the disclosure, it's really tough to figure out where is that line. I mean, we use it almost involuntarily sometimes, right? If you go to it and do a Google search, there's an AI overview that pops up and reviewing that. And so at what point are you using AI to prepare your legal work? Westlaw has AI embedded into it, and you, if you have certain subscriptions, there's AI-assisted research that has even more powerful AI. And so, um, it's, it's hard, I think, to draw that line. And I, for that reason and for many other reasons, I actually wrote an article about this for many other reasons, have decided not to issue a standing order. Um, the article that I wrote is published through Thomson Reuters and it's on my website, which is just my name, or it's at braswell.com. So folks can read it there if they're interested.

Oh, cool. That's cool. Yeah.

We're all stunned.

It's such a big thing. I mean, it is really hard. I did something recently for a client unrelated, you know, it's for law, but it was something different for numbers and accounting and so forth. And I said, I said in there, I, I used AI to draw this up initially. It's just kind of, and I got the response back. I used AI to draw this up and we were kind of going back and forth, but it, I was, I, I think Linda and I do this a lot. We, we take it as a way to help us reformat our thoughts, not just rely heavily 100% on what it's gonna provide. And I feel like that's where people get caught.

Well, I, I laugh when we work with our team, we, We tell them, you know, they're like, I don't know how to structure the email. I'm really mad at the client. I want to restructure. I said, write what you want to say and tell it to turn that into something nice. And it works. That's a great use case for AI. So, you know, you can get it off your chest. It's like your therapist, but then they can re— and then I'm always stunned when I get it back and I'm like, well, it's still saying the same thing, but it sounds way better than the way I was trying to say it. So yeah, it's kind of interesting.

Yeah. And, you know, I think that's, that's the important part is figuring out what makes sense to ensure that AI is augmenting and not replacing, right? I mean, the idea is that we can enhance ourselves and do better work and potentially do more and service our clients, or in my position, the public in a better way. But you have to be really thoughtful about where you draw that line. And I talk about this framework that I use, which sounds silly, but it's really simple. And in my mind, a really good way to kind of keep a check on myself. I call it the sandwich approach, right? AI should never start it and should never finish it for you, but it's okay to have it in the middle, right? And to, to, to make sure that you are starting with, uh, your own thinking, in part because you don't want to lose those skills, right? It's important for us to kind of wrestle with that blank moment where we're having to figure out, how do I start this? What do I want to do here? Really wrestle with that and then use AI, as you say, to refine, to augment, to help you make it better.

Mm-hmm.

And then make sure that you're using your own judgment to verify at the end, right? So AI in the middle and your own human judgment and verification processes on either end, I think, is the safest way to think about it right now.

Well, and on the number side of the industry, you know, so many people are concerned with losing their jobs. And, you know, we have to— we have to get the thought across that you're not just a bookkeeper or an accountant any longer. You need to find your way into AI to become the trusted advisor to your clients. You're not going to be replaced. There's, and there's that human element that always needs to be there. We are, we are emotional beings that we, we need each other. And I, I'm not a proponent of AI is going to replace my job. I just, it doesn't worry me at all.

Yeah, I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because I view AI as really creating an opportunity for more human connection. So I know, yes, people are sort of like, well, you know, AI is kind of replacing us and What world are we headed towards where AI is doing everything? But the reality is we're in this really special window of time right now. I feel really privileged that we're in this window of time where we get to decide where to draw that line. We get to decide where AI not just can be, I mean, these tools are super capable and they're going to get more capable. They're the worst they ever will be right now. They're going to get better.

Good point.

It's not about capability, but it is about making decisions and saying, where should AI be and where shouldn't it be? I think we have this opportunity to say AI shouldn't be in those places where we really need that human connection. As I think about my work, I'm excited about the possibility that AI gives me more time to hold hearings, right? We don't— I have 400 cases at a time with dozens of motions on each case. We can't hold a hearing in every single one.

Yeah.

Which really deprives us from that human connection with the public that we're serving. But if I can create some efficiencies, adapt some workflows to then create more time for me to have that connection with the pro se litigant and have a, you know, a more open human connection that explains what's happening, maybe they feel better even if they lose their case, right? Maybe they feel better having gone through the process with the judge being able to talk directly to them more often. So I do think we have this really incredible opportunity to draw lines in a way that keeps us more human and more connected to each other.

I like that.

Remember, Sarah, we worked with an attorney that had the— she worked with life and death cases. She was saying during COVID things shifted, everything went online, and how it was really difficult because she felt like the humanness of the interaction with the judge and the jury was gone. And you—it can't be replaced by not being in person. And that was—I never thought about it until she mentioned that because she was, you know, on those cases that were life. People could get that, you know, was in Florida, so they could. They could actually be killed for whatever they did. And I was like, oh my God, I never ever thought of the heaviness of what she was dealing with. And she was like, it was completely different going to court online than in person. And that's kind of the stuff that you're just mentioning, I think.

And that, and that really connects to this issue of job displacement and sort of how do you future-proof yourself, right? I think focusing on those human skills is really critical. It's, it's why I decided to teach this course at DU Law, because, um, I think it's really important to set up young attorneys on a path where they are thinking about refining those what people call soft skills more than anything else, right? A lot is going to be automated. There's especially some of those, uh, entry-level tasks, they're going to be automated. And so they've really got to focus on polishing other types of skills. And if you do polish those skills, work on those skills, allow yourself to have those human connections, I think it's more likely that you become, as Steve mentioned, a trusted advisor, which is, I think, where a lot of the white-collar professions are moving, right? The knowledge workers are now going to have to think about themselves more as trusted advisors and really redefine their professional identity in order to fit into a more AI-integrated world.

Yeah. I also think about, like, what does it look like with the security risks and the guardrails that happen with that? Because you mentioned, like, You know, some of the tools that practice management software— there, there is that information that's coming in that you could rely. But if you go out, like you're saying, you're Googling something, it's right in front of you. And then how do you know what you're navigating or contextually putting in? Like, you have to find the source. Or I'm, I'm sure between teaching and then sitting in a room full of lawyers, you've got some different perspectives going on.

Right.

What is that like for you right now in your position? How do these conversations come up? Like, what's—

We're all training it. Remember we were talking about it on, on the Law Lab? It's like, are you in a job— because there's an article in the Wall Street Journal and said, are you in a job that your company is using AI to watch what you do and how you handle situations? Because eventually that will be taken over by the AI. And what are your rights? And it kind of went really deep into that. And I thought, I never really thought of that. And like, what are your rights as an employee? 'Cause how much of your intellectual data do you wanna be giving away? 'Cause you are giving away a lot. And I never really thought of it from that perspective, that that's something that is happening today. And when you look at, like, look at Amazon sweeping out so many jobs, and those are those low-level move the packages that are now being done by robots and everything else. But then now they're even taking more jobs away. And it, it, to me, it's like we're— but we also went through this with manufacturing jobs were shifted back in the day. the cloud when it came out. We remember all the scary stories about the cloud. Oh, sure. And I think the way Moritz is looking at AI, like, this is such a great, exciting time to see this pivotal shift in how we do things. And it is. And I think you don't think about it until you start thinking about how you used to do things. I don't think Sarah and I would have a business if we didn't have the internet and all of that, right? Because she's in Portland and I'm up down in Florida, in Naples area, Florida. We are not even in the same time zone, yet we have a business together, you know, a really great business together. I wouldn't know Steve, you know, if I didn't have that. But the times we all meet together are so enriched, enriching times to our soul, because we now we're together, like physically together. And I think that we won't ever lose that because people need that physical connection, that being in the same room with somebody is so important. And I think that it does open up Pandora's box of what you can do, but then it also is something that gives you, makes you appreciate those times together.

Yeah, I mean, there's— I think we're gonna have a lot of those moments in the next few years where we say, oh, I hadn't thought about that. Oh, this is, this is, this is raising this whole other issue. Yeah, right. And the crazy thing is it's happening so fast that instead of having those moments every few months, we're having those moments like every day. Every day something happens and you're like, oh wait, how is this good? What is this going to mean for this job? Or what is it for this task? Or what is this going to mean for me? So we're gonna have a lot of those moments. Um, at the same time, I think I think you're making an excellent point, which is this isn't entirely new territory. We've been there before, right? We have that moment when yeah, shepherding went from books to Westlaw. And it was like, well, wait a minute, now we're doing everything online. What, you know, do we need these books anymore? We had that moment when things went to fax, right? Like you've got a fax machine now that's like submitting.

Oh, and it was so magical.

Yeah. And it's magical when it comes out.

And what if someone picks it up and like looks at this confidential privileged information and now you've broken the privilege, right? Like we've had those moments.

Yeah.

AI is definitely different, right? AI is much more powerful. Again, the, the developments are moving at lightning speed, but we do have something to kind of lean on. We have the Industrial Revolution, right? We know what happens when there's massive job displacement, but then the revolution actually creates more jobs than it displaced, right? We've seen, we've seen this happen before, and I think it's important to be aware and be thoughtful but not let the fear paralyze us, right? Not let that fear be the thing. I talk a lot about this sort of analogy, right? Think about being on a ledge, and it's super scary, and if you fall off the ledge, you could seriously hurt yourself, maybe even die, right? You're walking across it, but you're across it. You're done. You got there. Now you've got your son or your daughter or someone you care about on the other side, and they're looking down and they're scared, and they have to walk across. what's the first thing you say to them? First thing you say to them is, don't look down. And it's not because they shouldn't be aware of what they are. It's because the fear is not helpful, right?

Yeah.

The fear is just going to paralyze them. The fear is going to make it more difficult to get across that ledge safely. And that's a little bit how I think about this moment. Yes, we're in— it's perilous. There are certainly potential pitfalls here, but fear isn't going to be helpful to getting across it. It's about really focusing, being aware of what the issues are, and then handling them, right, as we move forward. And we've got to do it together. We all have to engage because It can't just be the tech world solving these issues for us. And we certainly don't have the regulation moving fast enough. We know that. So a lot of this is going to be us working through it and engaging together to get across.

And yeah, don't let your fear become your reality. Yeah. And that's what a lot of people are doing. I mean, Linda, you might— and Sarah, you might remember in Friday's Law Lab, I mentioned that I read that Burger King has AI headsets now that they're putting on their employees at the drive-up windows to monitor what they're saying to the customers. And I thought, now wait a minute. But that's not going to work because you're not going to attract employees if you're monitoring them that way. That, to me, that's just not right.

Oh, they're going to replace them with a robot that can just handle that job.

And, you know, I have a, I have a TV courtroom question for you, Maritza. Gotta throw a little humor in here. But do you, do you ever see, do you ever see a time coming where an attorney would be allowed to be arguing a case in court and they could have a computer in front of them and they, they have an aha moment by looking up something in AI to argue right there live. Do you, do you ever see it coming to that?

I mean, attorneys have computers in the courtroom now. They don't have, um, internet access unless they bring in a device to be able to give them that access.

So they're allowed to do that? Okay.

They're allowed to do that.

I mean, I, there's times where I will say, you know, tell me about this case. You didn't cite it in your brief. They're at oral argument and I'll say, tell me about this case. And they'll quickly look it up and try to get me an answer. Obviously they're using traditional tools like Westlaw. But certainly I see a time. I also see a time where judges have that better at their fingertips. I usually have my computer up. I'd love it if I could just put on some glasses, you know, the Meta glasses with like a little screen here on the side that tell me, here's the rule that you need to be thinking about. Here's the text of the rule. I don't have, you know, perfect memory to recall every rule. I know them well enough to generally understand where my, you know, guardrails are, where my confines are, but to be able to quickly pull up the text of a rule as I'm applying it in court would be fantastic. So I certainly see a time where that technology makes it, makes the information more available to us, the information we already have available to us anyways, even more accessible.

Yeah, I was at the eye doctor last week for my annual checkup, and he had Meta glasses on, and he had my eyes up there on this, this computer monitor, and he started babbling. He said, you know, I want you to look at Steve's eyes and tell me what you see. And I'm looking around, I said, who are you talking to? And he's like, oh, I have Meta glasses on. And I'll be darned if he wasn't having this conversation about my eyes and what he was seeing and what it was seeing. And it—

I was like, whoa, that's crazy though. That's a pro— that's a very pro-forward, uh, thinking doctor you have there.

Oh, I thought it was great, but I was just like, who in the heck is he talking to? And he said, sometimes when I'm in the park and I'm just talking away to Meta and people think there's the crazy man on the bench, you know.

But they also use that in court where the judge said no cameras in court, and then in marched Zuckerberg with his 2 guys with the glasses on, and the judge is like, uh-uh, take those off because they could record all that.

Yeah, so courts don't allow recording. We don't allow recording here. There's gonna— there's always gonna be some limitations. But gosh, I do think, you know, even those limitations are gonna be tested, right, as this technology advances. And it's this need to create equal footing too, I think, is gonna drive some of the decision-making. Big firms are already fully integrating AI into their systems and processes, right?

Right.

There's big firms who are using not just one, you know, not just Harvey, but they then also have Chat Enterprise and Copilot Enterprise and Claude Enterprise. So they're integrating all of these tools, they're training their associates on it. And then you've got the solo or, you know, mid-sized firms who are maybe not as well resourced and can't do that. And so how do we even the playing field? Part of that is going to be creating, you know, more access and being more open about some of these restrictions that we had in the past. So I think we're going to see things starting to change, in part driven by this capability is here, we all want to keep up, we all want to make sure that we're augmented where we can be, and then in part by just a general access to justice question, which for me is the most exciting and motivating part of all of this. I really do think AI could have a big impact on access to justice.

I'm curious, as, as we are growing with it, all of us, those of us that out of school, we're in the workforce, we're owning our businesses, and now you've got— you're teaching, you're, you're instructing, uh, a group and how, how it's meaningfully led.

Yeah.

Because not every school is teaching at, at this level. But you're right, it's changing the workforce, workforce, and we are having to adapt ourselves as leaders in our own little companies and firms. And how do we make sure it's the same meaningful dialogue that you're helping someone learn. It is— it's not easy to navigate, I will say. And I can't imagine as a firm owner what it's like right now.

It's also the Wild West sometimes with the answers. I remember when we first started playing around with them, like, oh my God, that's wrong. We asked it a simple question about 1099s and attorneys, which is not simple, and it did not get the answers right. I'm like, okay. And we try to tell the people in the Law Lab, look, it's a, it's a great tool for marketing your firm because you can make marketing calendars and there's so many useful pieces of it. But if you're going to use it to write for you, you should really let it help you write, but you write because you need to know what you're doing. And you— I'm afraid somebody's going to go out there and say, I just want to be a legal bookkeeper today, and then they just go and copy what they can get off, off of it and whatever it regurgitates out to it. But just like that man that was, uh, the attorney in New York that found out not, you know, Smith versus Jones was probably not a good case to use in his briefing, whatever he did, that he got called out by the judge because he's like— that was in the earlier days of ChatGPT, but they— he totally got lazy and didn't do his homework. And it's important to know what you're talking about.

Yeah.

That's my biggest worry about AI with my grandkids is that we learn as, you know, how we've all learned is doing and making mistakes and all of that. And then if you've got this tool that's going to help you never have to make a mistake, everything will be right all the time, At some point, how do you learn? Are you going to be a lot of people who don't have that ability to reason things through because they didn't have to? It seems like your brain's going to get lazy with a lot of what AI can do. And I think that's what scares me the most with AI.

So my class, I really, I love what you're touching on here, both of you, because it actually touches on 3 themes that I sort of built my class around. The first is you really have to understand the technology to understand the the limits and the opportunities. And so as part of my course, where I start with the students is just teaching them how do these systems work, right? What are tokens and what are vectors and how do they actually process information? And how is it different from traditional computing where the answer is in some sense retrievable versus these systems where it's probabilistic? It's about statistical accuracy, right? And, and predictive reasoning. So really teaching them the technology. Now, I'm not a technologist, so I don't, you know, dive deep into it, but enough for someone to understand this is why they hallucinate. This is why the systems are biased. These are all the different ways the systems can be biased. These are the limitations, right? This is what the systems do really, really well, and this is what they don't do so well right now. So it starts with understanding the technology. The second piece is critical thinking, right? We're in this era where a lot of information is coming at us, and, you know, sometimes it's— Wow, these systems are great. They're going to replace everyone. It's going to change the world. And then on the other side of that is these systems are, you know, going to doom us all. And, you know, that's the worst thing that ever happened. And they're doing all these things. They're making all these mistakes. And, and I think each time some of those really big claims come at you, it's really important to think critically.

Who's saying it?

Mm-hmm. Right? Is there some motivation to say it one way or another? And if there isn't a motivation, are they, are they taking something too far? Right? What's the underlying premise? So thinking really critically about all of information that's coming at us. And then the last piece is what you touched on, which is sort of the hands-on piece, right? Like, you just got to get in there and do it. And so my course ends with a legal design sprint, where the students apply design thinking principles to prototype a solution to some justice problem.

Wow.

And right now, the students have coalesced around a couple of issues, and they're going to essentially use AI to then prototype a solution and offer their presentations at the end of the class. So I'm trying to create this place where they can understand the technology, think critically about it, and then actually do something with it. So they come out with real practical skills. Wow.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

Well, with that said, where would it— where would, where would a beginner person, like a brand new bookkeeper who is attracted to the legal industry, who's just hanging their own shingle out, where would they go and learn the beginning courses? Where would they find those for AI? What would you recommend?

So a couple of things. I think listening to podcasts like this is a great idea, right? Because you're very— I mean, you're obviously focused on a particular group, on a particular sector, on a particular profession. And I think I do that a lot. I listen to a lot of podcasts. It's how I get a lot of my information. You have to be careful, right? Make sure you're getting good podcasts and good sources. And I think clearly this is one of them. So I think making sure you're listening to the right people in your industry who understand the issues and sort of the emerging issues as well. Second, there's a lot of free courses out there. So Google has a set of free courses. I know that Microsoft has some beginner courses that you can sign up for, and they're, and they're free. I mean, you can just download them. They're video tutorials. I know IBM has some that you can just Google on YouTube. Stanford, I think, has some lectures that they've posted as well on YouTube. So a lot of the sort of bigger, you know, tech and then academia have done a lot. Harvard, I think, just put out a a set of free courses as well. So you can easily find video tutorials to give you the basics. And then depending on how deep you want to dive, you know, you can, you can dig a little bit deeper. I also think it's helpful to just have in your feed, like your LinkedIn feed, right? Like the people that you know are sort of authorities in the space or thinking about this critically, put them on your LinkedIn feed so that you can have those messages kind of pop up for you.

Great idea.

I can't really speak to the accounting world and sort of where you get education that's specific to accountants. But in terms of AI, I think those are some tips for staying on top it.

I watched a recording the other day where they linked QuickBooks to, um, an AI and it failed miserably. Failed miserably. I just sat there and laughed.

But well, there's so much— it— we're, we're so similar in professions in the sense of like both professions are really trying very hard to adopt it, and it is hard to follow, especially when it's baked in a product, to rely on it. We've seen that in our own experiences, but also reliably getting the data and finding places to understand the data, kind of what you were Mm-hmm. It's like, so yeah, it's, it's a whole, especially someone who has got somebody in college myself, I'm like, it's a whole different conversation. I had a whole conversation with my son this weekend about how are you utilizing it, um, you know, in your business, uh, level courses and what are you doing and how are they teaching this? And I think that's the part is it, it's across the board. We're all in the same boat. Like the cloud moment, Linda, like you were saying. Like, we all had to learn the cloud. It's just really hard to, to trust it. So it's nice to hear that from a judicial side, like some of the things that we can— like you're saying, the sandwich method, the critical thinking process, just the simplistic ideas of that. It makes it easier to understand how to bite-size.

I would also say one other thing, which is, yeah, I always tell people, if you're not deep in it or you're not using it at work because that's not something your organization is doing, Use it personally. And that's a much safer space to use it in, right? Use it to— I mean, people always talk about like, take a snapshot of what's in your refrigerator and ask it to make a recipe.

Love that.

My son is a wrestler. And I noticed that one of the things that was happening for him is he was really getting in his head right before a match. And I felt like he needed something to kind of pull him out of that and like get him in the right headspace. So I used AI to create a soundtrack with an overlay of a motivational like script, right? And used music that was specific to him that I I knew he liked. Yeah. Voice that I knew he would— that would resonate to him. Sounded like a young coach. And then put together a script that kind of gave him this essentially 3-minute soundtrack with motivational words. And I showed it to him and I was like, hey, try this. And he's like, no, I'm never going to use that. He then tried it at a match and he was like, I'm using it every time. Like, completely changed my mind. Like, I felt like I was, you know, I was it. I was doing this. So, you know, you can do a lot of creative things. And I think it's easier to do that, safer to do that in your personal life.

Yeah.

And as you do, as you use it more in your personal life, it starts to kind of get your creative juices flowing. Like, oh, wait a minute. I think I could use this for XYZ task at work, right? And then, of course, you got to think about, is it safe? Is it the right approach?

Yeah.

Are there confidentiality issues? I have an AI use policy in my chambers. And I talk a lot about sort of asking yourself some questions ahead of time, right? What am I doing with the— what's going on with this input, right? Am I inputting in anything that's confidential or sensitive? If I am, I need to pause. I need to stop and think, what's the system I'm using?

Mm-hmm.

And then you think about the outputs, like what's coming out, and is there bias? Do I need to think about bias? Is there hallucination in here? Do I know this space enough? Do I know these issues enough to recognize it? If I don't, this is probably pretty high risk and I should stop. And then also, then how are you using it, right? Am I using it in a place where it's high risk, or am I using it in a place where it's pretty low risk? So asking yourself some of those questions when you do go to the work setting is important. But again, I think playing with it in the personal setting is what gives you the ideas in the first It's so rich what you just said.

And I also think, did you ever sign off with Mom Knows Best on that video?

I know, right?

That's so cool. I love it.

She didn't just go and find somebody else's stuff. She made him a stuff.

Yeah.

That was like customized stuff.

It was very customized to him, to who he is. Yeah.

That's so cool.

Not all the moms are cool like that.

Well, he didn't think it was cool when I first told him. He's like, what is this and why would I— and then he used it and he was like, oh, Oh, I like it.

It's so— that's crazy rich content right now, right in this little segment of how to even just start the process.

And you don't get good with it if you don't practice and play with it. You know, the more you use it— and, and if, like, I follow people on X and I'm like, there's people out there that send like, this is, this is if you want to know how to make a perfect workout or have a perfect, perfect trainer, ask it this, ask it this, ask it this. Or how to get free, you know, Netflix and all these other channels, you could ask these questions. And that didn't work. But I mean, it was kind of like, oh, I never thought of approaching it that way. And that's all personal stuff. But how can I do that? Like, pretend, you know, put my CPA hat on. This is my problem. How do I resolve it? Or how do I approach the client with it? Or maybe my psychologist— more like a psychiatrist hat or a psychologist hat, which is— we are a lot of times.

Yeah.

How should I work through this with the client that's feeling all this anxiety over this issue? The cash flow is not great. Great. How can I get— this is what I see. How can I outline this to the client? Because sometimes the way my brain pumps it out is not in the best logical order. But if you give it to it and tell it, this is what I want to do, it can put it in a better order. And I'm like, oh, why didn't I think of it like that? But there you go. And I'm not thinking right. Normally, I would have just hit it up the way it was. But now I'm using AI, but it makes it— it makes a nice softer touch, like my email where I'm like writing a nasty gram and having them revert it to something nicer.

Yeah. And you know what?

Make this more professional.

I need that one a lot.

And it doesn't have to be—

it doesn't have to be AI for everything. Like, all these use cases that you're talking about are sort of in, you know, small pockets, and that's great. I mean, that's, that's enough, right? I think sometimes we fall into this trap of, well, I know this is a very routine, rote task. There's gotta be a way for AI to help me with this. And yeah, maybe there is, but you don't have to figure it out. It doesn't have to happen right now, right? Playing with these tools and figuring out where it does make sense, where you're comfortable, where it's safe, right, where you're doing it responsibly, is a really good first step. And then I think as you get more comfortable with it, you're naturally going to start to explore more. AI now goes well beyond LLMs, right? It's not just ChatGPT anymore. It's not just Claude. Notebook is a really great tool, NotebookLM. It allows you to upload documents. And then those documents can be synthesized into a video or into an outline or into a summary or into a podcast.

Mm-hmm.

And it allows you to learn from those documents in different ways if you're a learner you're, you know, a visual learner, you might put a video together. So there's a lot of tools out there now that are sort of beyond the LLM realm, but it's starting with these smaller use cases that then allows you to think, huh, could there be something out there that could help me with XYZ? Usually you Google it and realize, yeah, there is, there is something out there, I'll try it. And these, these, these trying moments, these moments of sort of, you know, trial and error and figuring out if it works or doesn't work in a particular use case is what gets us smarter about it.

It doesn't have to be all And aren't you finding the same sort of results going back to— let's talk about Notebook— when you put a document in there, but maybe there's some personal information that you don't want to show there, can you just redact that and still get the same results? Are you finding that it's changing anything because of that, or—

Well, you can— in Notebook, I know you can upload a bunch of documents, right? And then as you're creating something, you can say, you know what, I changed my mind, don't use this one. I've decided I don't want to include this information. So you uncheck it and you can do that. Certainly you can upload already redacted documents. I suppose it depends on what you've redacted, whether you've now made it not as useful, right? If you've—

Right, right.

Something really substantive, it could really change the usefulness of the document. But, but I find that the system is, is, it's pretty good at picking up sort of the key information that you need to pull in and use. And you use that second window to kind of iterate with it and say, here's what I'm interested and learning about and understanding, and that also helps you refine.

Yeah, that's another whole hat we have to wear with technology, and it's probably one of the best reasons why we all have our times with our peers, because it's so impossible to see every piece of software. But if you're with your peers and everybody's tried them and we share, you know, we share in the Law Lab, we share with our own groups, and then we share, share it down. But it's kind of like, who's used this and what kind of results did you and save me the pain of trying something that doesn't— isn't going to work. And I think sometimes that's one of the values that you can get from being in touch with other humans, to get together with coaching calls or whatever, to try to figure out what works and what doesn't work and how. Or sometimes we even find from our Law Lab group or working with some of our colleagues, they'll say, oh, I'm using this, but they're using it for something I never even thought of to use it for. And that's what's great about sharing what you know and what you learn around 100%.

100%. I think you're also going to get to a place where people start creating things themselves. Code is getting super powerful. I've vibed with apps, and I think it's basically now at the point where if you can imagine it, you can probably build it. Maybe not take it all the way to execution, but at least prototype something, which is what I'm getting my students to try to engage with.

Oh, that's cool.

And so I think you're going to start to see that as well, right? People not just tool sharing, but also saying, hey, I have this idea and I prototyped it. What do you guys think? You know, would you use something like this? You're going to start to see some of that, I think, in these spaces.

How, how does it work now with this national consortium that you've put together? Like, how many, how many judges are there? How does the dialogue work? Because it, it probably is forming as— I don't know how long it's been in existence, but I'm presuming you're gaining some speed on this and helping kind of the whole lay of the land right now with this kind of stuff.

So we just launched it at the beginning of this year. So it is brand new. Brand new. But we have a lot of enthusiasm and momentum. We had over 200 judges sign up for it. And during our first meeting, we had almost 100 participate. It's, you know, when you have a big group like that, it's hard to create that dialogue space.

Yeah.

We've decided to create what we call pop-ins. And so in between meetings, we will have pop-in discussions where judges can gather in smaller settings and just talk with each other, information share. And, you know, like you said, just share your experience. What's going on? How are you using it? What are you seeing in your courtrooms? And again, the point is not consensus building or trying to get one direction from everyone. It's really just about about keeping your finger on the pulse and understanding what's happening around the country and maybe getting a little more confidence in your own AI use because you've now heard how someone's using it safely.

Yeah.

Or, you know, finding out that there's guardrails that maybe you don't have that somebody else has and you think, wow, that's a great idea. I'm going to put that into my policy. So it's, it's going great. It's really, really new, but lots of momentum, lots of enthusiasm, lots of judges who've raised their hand to say, I want to help, I want to contribute, I want to help lead a working group. So, so really good energy right now.

That's cool because I love it. It's a great idea because what Linda was saying, I'm enjoying this in our own little community. And it's nice that you all are having this for yourselves. And so brand new and having this much momentum behind it is really cool. Yeah.

I wonder how many other states have ever even thought to do this.

I mean, I'm sure this is national. So, you know, all states, as long as you're a judge, and it could be state level, federal, trial. Yeah. Everyone.

I'm gonna mention it to one of my friends. I'm sure she's heard about it, but I'll mention it to her.

Good on you, Maritza.

Wow. I mean, we should spread the Word. Because, yeah, I don't know, I think of some of the judges I've run into, and I just can't even imagine. But those were years ago when I was doing T&E with apartments and people throwing people off that didn't pay. And I can't imagine— I'm trying to think of those people, like, could they ever be the type— they were all older guys. And I'm thinking, would they ever, like, ever be able to get to that point where you're thinking, like, ahead like that? That's really cool.

Yeah, there's— I mean, a lot of people are, and it's at all, you know, all levels of the spectrum, judges that have been on the bench for a few years all the way to judges who have been on the bench for 20 years, right? Everybody is grappling with this. And the thing with AI is it's not one of these things where you can either choose to interact with it or not. It's in our courtrooms whether we like it or not. And so I think people recognize, hey, I, I need to know something about this, right? I need to really dig in a little bit and understand it. And, and we really— it runs the, the gamut. Some judges are sort of, I'm just here to understand, and other judges like, I know this is the future and I want to be involved in a meaningful way. And we make space for everyone. We said at the first meeting, all perspectives, all approaches, all thoughts are welcome here. So yeah, I'm really excited. And if anybody's listening to this podcast who is a judge and is interested, they just need to go to aiforjudges.com and they can sign up to receive emails and the invitations to our meetings.

Yeah.

Awesome.

You guys have resources, articles. You got that URL? That's a great URL. Yeah, it is.

aiforjudges.com.

I love it.

I wonder if we ought to promote this, um, locally because we're both at the Bar Association, if we should promote this to the bar to, to actually show this podcast as a class.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know the bar is really interested right now in putting out more information. They did a full CLE, a full-day CLE on AI on Friday. That's what I was presenting at this past Friday. And, um, I think they're trying to do a little more in the space. So yeah, I think they'd be Awesome.

Awesome. Wow. Well, I— we can't thank you enough, Maritza, for all of these, these nuggets you've shared with us today. So proud of you and so grateful for everything that you've shared. I've— I know I've learned a lot today.

Oh, absolutely. I've learned a lot.

I always learn when people are talking, and I obviously don't have my finger on the pulse in the accountant space as well. And so this has been really informative for me too. So thank you.

Well, we've gotten rid of our pocket savers and calculators, if that helps.

Uh, speak for yourself. I have a pen over here.

I saved my calculator. It's in the closet. I'm like, I don't think you'll ever get rid of your calculator.

Yeah. Numbers are numbers are numbers.

I know. It's just so funny. When AI first came out, it did— couldn't add. It could not add. Yeah. And that was the big thing. I remember sitting in a conference years ago, and they used AI, and they did this. It made a beautiful spreadsheet and all these pretty graphs. And then the guy's like, but the problem with this is The math doesn't add up. And we were like, oh. And he went through and he showed it, and I'm like, oh my God, the math is completely wrong. So if you didn't— you went in blindly asking it to make this beautiful presentation and you presented it to a client, it didn't work. And it was like, we were all like, everybody, like, you could hear the, like, in the room when it happened. And it was so interesting that—

That goes back to the point of, you know, this is not like traditional computing. It's very different, a different system, and you have to understand the technology to know where the limitations are. And you have to remember that again, it's the worst it will ever be today.

Yeah, it's always getting better and better and better.

Yeah, I'm gonna remember that.

Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, I guess for those of you that haven't done it, just start out with creative stuff. Like I did a, I did something similar to, not the fridge thing, but I took a picture of my living room. I'm like, can you help me understand what I should do differently here? Like, where should I lay this stuff out? Just, just lay out stuff, just fun It got paintings. It was good at writing poems, remember?

It wrote a song. Yeah, I mean, it was really, really cool. It wrote a poem and then the art and all the stuff it can do. It's like, it's so good. And you would think that would be the hard thing for it. You wouldn't think that like math would be the hard thing because it's all numbers. Like, what? But math it couldn't do, but it could make beautiful paintings and write poetry, write songs.

It's like, wow, that's crazy. I actually, just to give you another little story about my kids, my, my daughter was going through something that was kind of tough and I was having a hard time explaining explaining what, you know, what, what I thought she should be thinking about. Um, it was just some issues that she was having with friends. And I said, you know what, write a poem and use this metaphor. I had a metaphor that I wanted to use around, you know, planets and stars. And so I said, use this metaphor. Here's what's going on for my daughter. Help me help her understand what's happening here in her world and how she should be thinking about it.

Wow.

And it wrote this amazing poem and she loved it. She thought it was just so cool and it conveyed so much more than I could have conveyed And the, you know, 10 conversations I kept trying to have with her to navigate these difficult issues. So there's just so much we can do. And, and you're right, so many limitations still, but it's only gonna get better.

So many.

Well, you're definitely the cool mom. I have to say, that's really cool. The cool mom.

Tell my kids that. Please tell my kids that. So, yeah, right. I know, right?

I think we all think that as moms, like, tell our kids. I love it.

Eventually they'll come around. They'll, they'll, they'll understand that you're the cool mom. It might take 20 extra years, but they'll know.

They'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. Well, Tiara, take us away.

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Thank you. Wonderful. Well, thank you for coming. I want to have you back so we can find out, like, let's see how much more happens in a year from now or something.

Yeah.

Absolutely. This is fun. I really, I like your format here with the 3 of you chatting and it feels easy and nice. So yeah, happy to come back anytime.

Thank you.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Maritza. Thank you.

Okay. So is this the real thank you where I say bye now and bye everyone? Say bye.

But you know, I don't say bye yet.