Inspiring the Next Generation with Jessica Childress

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Steven Libhart.

Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. And today we have a special, special guest, and we're going to talk about how we can inspire the next generation, whether it be in an accounting field. But we actually met this wonderful human being when we were in line at Clio Con. So I'd like to send a warm welcome to Jessica Childress, who we just met because I thought it was because of shoes, but now I'm hearing it's about glasses. So do you want to tell us a little bit about you, Jessica? And I can tell you, we were all blown away by you. So I'll let you give us the short bio.

Awesome. Well, thank you, Linda, so much. Thank you, Sarah, Linda, and Steve for having me. It was so wonderful to meet Sarah and Linda at Clio Con in Nashville about 2 weeks ago. As Linda mentioned, we met Linda and Sarah were the first people that I met at ClioCon, and we just really had wonderful interactions while I was there. And I was there because I'm a lawyer and I am based in Washington, DC. I'm the managing attorney of the Childress Firm PLLC. We're a boutique employment law firm in Washington, DC, and we represent employees and employers in employment disputes. But one of my favorite parts of being an employment lawyer really is training companies on how to be more inclusive and more compliant. how to create safer workspaces. So that is my lawyer life. In my non-lawyer life, in my other life, I write children's books, which is a part of my life that I absolutely love. And it really is just something that has been such an enriching part of my life. I've always loved books since I was a kid. I was just enamored with stories about industrious girls. And so I write about a little girl. Her name is Juris P. Prudence, and she takes on fun cases representing kids. So she is a little girl. She's 11 years old, and she will probably perpetually be 11 years old. But I write about her and her friendships. She's from a non-traditional family structure. She lives with her grandparents, and her friends are a diverse group of 11-year-old friends. They come from diverse backgrounds. But I wrote about jurisprudence because I wanted to give girls, especially girls of color, another image of what a lawyer looked like, because the representation that I grew up with, it really wasn't there. I never saw pictures of lawyers on TV other than Clair Huxtable, which was a wonderful image of a lawyer. And but that there were very few images of Black women lawyers in the media, and especially in the children's books that I read. The majority of the children's books that I read that featured Black girls were— the Black girls were slaves or growing up in the 1960s. And so their stories didn't necessarily reflect the contemporary society in which I lived. And so I really wanted to make sure that girls all had an image of what they could be and then give them an image of how to be a lawyer, give them a path and inspiration. So I'm sure we'll talk about this as we go further in the conversation, but that's my, that's my general story.

Where have you been all my life?

I know, right?

Oh my gosh, you are like resonating with me just right there. Thank you.

Thank you, Steve. Thank you. I, well, I could talk about books all day, but we can, I'll definitely let Linda and you and Sarah guide.

Yeah, I— your lineup, of course, reading more about you, just having met you, just the general conversation, the way that we had conversation was just so genuinely kind and fun and, and spunky, like so random, right? And, and then to kind of fast forward through the CleoCon and whoa, wait a minute, she's on the main stage, she's getting an award.

Winning an award.

We were like, oh my God, that's our Jessica, because we just connected with you because you had such great energy and we just absorbed it and it was like It was just amazing. Literally first person we met there too. And it was just— Oh, yeah.

Because Nicole and I— so our acronym SNL. So I think you met Nicole first. It sort of started spiraling that way. But you said something just now that deeply reminded me of what I was so grateful and inspired by, not just in my heritage community, but when I remember George Clooney meeting his wife and finding out that she isn't a lawyer— she's a lawyer, she's Middle Eastern, she's Lebanese. Like, I remember that. Like, that's where we can be too. Like, I remember that feeling of— and so the fact that you're an author and you're staging it from this voice of this youth, and, and it's not this small youth, it's not this old youth, it's like right in the middle. You strategically nailed that. And I love— I'm curious, How did you kind of— the fact that it's grandparents, like you did so many methodical things. How did this come to you? Out of curiosity.

That's such a great question, Sarah. And I never thought about the— I mean, there are many assets or aspects of Juris P. Prudence's life that I did think about, but some of them were simply organic. They just came about in the writing process. And I think that as writers, you often speak from a place of familiarity. So for me, my parents, they divorced when I was 9 years old. They were both at Clio Con. They have a great relationship. Oh, wow! I got to see them.

Which was—

which is wonderful. But, you know, going through a divorce as a 9-year-old, that certainly was a traumatic experience. And so, you know, I was coming of age, you know, at 9, middle school, going through lots of life changes. So I think you know, inadvertently or just inherently, I thought about one of the pivotal moments in my childhood. And lawyers were— that was really the first real, you know, exposure in a real setting that I had to lawyers. I actually never met the lawyers that my parents had during their divorce, but I heard about them and it was scary. So I don't know, maybe that, you know, inherently played a role in this 11 and why Juris is 11 years old, because that was just such an important time in my life. But my grandparents certainly played a huge role in my life. We spent many, many weekends and summers with my grandparents. And my grandmother, she actually plays a huge part in the book. Her memory plays a huge part in the book. She passed away in 2019. But my grandmother, she's just someone who I always just spoke to, and she did not go to college. did not finish high school. She— but she was just such a smart woman, in my opinion. She was just so brilliant and always had the perfect insights and the perfect moments and just the best advice on life.

Mm-hmm.

And so, I mean, she will always be someone who I pay tribute to in everything that I do. She was actually in the ClioCon video that was played, and I just really— just was so moving for me because I want to always, you know, just elevate her name in any setting that I can because she did not get to see the world the way that I do. And the experiences that I have, I always want to show her in whatever way I can. Like, Granny, thanks so much for pouring into me.

Mm-hmm.

But just going back to Juris P. Prudence, I think that of all of the characters, my grandparents, they played a role in my life and they play such a pivotal role in Juris P. Prudence's life. Jurisprudence's friends. They represent my friends from law school. They represent my friends that I have now. They all have— one of my best friends, Crystal, she— I met her my first day of law school, and she has just a very calm personality. And Jurisprudence, she's often very impulsive. Whenever she has an idea, she's like, let's go for it right now. Let's do it. And her friend Sophia is much more methodical.

She's—

She's much more deliberate, and she really, really thinks through every detail, whereas Juris, she really is about big picture. And so all of these factors in my life, I think I filter them, and then they come out through the— in the book through Juris's experiences, through her friends. And yeah, I— so I think some of it is to— going back to your question, some of it is methodical, some of it is well thought out, but some of it's just really based on my own experiences that inevitably come out through the writing. And when you're passionate about a story, it just flows.

Yeah.

And I think like that's the easiest type of writing. Sometimes that's the hardest because it's like a magical moment that has to happen when you're just writing from your memories. And when you're thinking about the conversation, or when I've thought about the conversations I have with my— that I had with my grandmother, they often come out in the pages.

Yeah.

Things that she said to me will come out in the pages of the Jurisprudence books. And that's really the easiest type of writing to do.

It's beautiful. It's absolutely eloquently beautiful to have a way to take— transform a generation for the future through your stories, through this whole space of time that— I mean, it resonates with me deeply, having similar kind of experience. And we all have these. Whether it be in that moment like you experienced or whether it be through other sort of beautiful moments in your lives, whether it's trauma or not. I mean, it's just— it's this kind of pull to it. And the fact that you have a creative space to do it in, it's beautiful. It makes me— I mean, I just love the book even more, you know what I mean?

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I mean, there are things that I wrote— Juris P. Prudence, I started writing about this character in 2012. And so to see the evolution, the first book came out in 2014. So to think about, you know, just her evolution and the stories that people have, you know, written back to me saying, hey, I now want to be a lawyer because of her. It really inspired me to keep going as a writer.

Yeah.

Because she is the age that, you know, many— she's almost the age that many kids were born She's turning into the age that many kids were, you know, being born when I started writing. So it's just really cool to see her evolution.

I love it.

And that you would honor and you're teaching through this writing the gift that we all have of those special people that were in our lives that have passed on. Yeah, I mean, that's huge. What What a wonderful gift for you to give to the world.

Thank you so much. I really— I just— that is one of the— when I started writing this book, many, you know, people, or at least my grandmother— my grandfather had passed away when I started writing, but my grandmother was still alive. So she was able to see a bit of Juris P. Prudence's growth. And she always thought of me as a— she was so proud of me being a lawyer. And she would tell all of her friends, you know, they all knew me as Jessica the lawyer because there are no lawyers in my family. But, and so that's kind of the identity that I always assumed. And I was actually— it's still very difficult for me to think of myself as a writer. Mm-hmm.

Oh, I—

it's definitely, you know, you— your lawyer identity, and you all are accountants, so you know, like, how much work it takes to be an accountant and, like, You know, you— it's a part of your life. And so to adopt another identity was always very difficult for me. It's still— I still, like, wonder when people tell me that I'm an author. People have to remind me, and I just— and I have to remind myself. But my grandmother always reminded me, like, that I had written a book.

Yeah.

And she wasn't a huge— she would read the newspaper every day. She would actually read her physical newspaper. And she would look forward to reading it, and she would tell me what was going on in her hometown and who had passed away and, you know, what was going on in the world. So she loved reading her newspaper, but I never really saw her reading like novels. But she was just so proud of this book. And so I'll stop there. But I agree. I thank you, Steve, just for, you know, just acknowledging the memory of my grandma, because you could tell I just loved her very, very much.

Yes.

But that book will inspire the next generation because that, like you said, you get the stereotypical vision of, well, for us bookkeepers, right? Just think about what that word means, right? We talked about this before. Similar to the legal industry, the accounting industry, same issue. Like, there's an accountant, what you picture an accountant to look like with the pocket protector. You get this visualization. And I think sometimes As a kid, I know for me, it was always a nurse or a teacher because I'm in my 60s. When you start to look at the age difference, we didn't have these role models to look up to like people have today. We have astronauts, female astronauts, and things that weren't even thought of in my age group. The fact that things are shifting and changing in a positive way because it invites in a perspective of—

Diversity.

Everybody comes from different backgrounds, and now we can all— it kind of opens the door to more variety and more different how people grow up and how you perceive things. I think it's perception. I'm hoping that that will kind of soften out as you get into my generation. Hopefully we've learned from some of those things because it's just, it's nice to see. And I hope that, you know, in some way Sarah and I and Steve all inspire people to One of our goals, I think my personal goal is with automation and technology coming, and it's so a big part of our lives already. We've always been kind of tech forward. There's still a lot of accounting firms that are very tech backwards. And the fact that I want to inspire people to think bigger than write-up data entry, like those days are gone. What I did 20 years ago is not part of a job anymore, and it needs to be I want people to— I want to inspire them to think bigger or bigger picture than that and to move into a higher space. And I think that the fact that you've written this book, I even think for like even my grandsons, it's a good book to see because, you know, even though they're boys, just see it's— that there's other avenues out there for everybody. And it's really for everybody, inclusive of everyone. And I love that story. And I love the whole story of Juris Prudens. I think it's— It's just a beautiful story. And the fact that we just crossed paths and it was kind of a karma thing meant to be because it was literally like we just really loved having that time with you. We just kind of kept crossing paths in the conference too.

Well, it's a beautiful thing too, is she travels with her mama. And yes, that's someone who travels with her mama. I mean, there was a lot of likeness. I have a burning question in my mind as I'm sitting here listening to you talk, and I'm thinking, When you talk about your law days at school and so forth, and I thought, oh, based on your experience, was family law destined for you? I can understand the track that you took for this employment law. That makes complete sense. How did you kind of define that, or what drew you to these areas? Because I could see the natural— Sure. Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

So, no, thank you very much, Linda, for your insights about just making sure that we can see. We can— we, we need to be able to see our future. And we— I know for me, I will always, you know, when I'm looking into a new project, I want to see who else has done it. What does that look like for me? Um, and so to your question, Sarah, I—

the way—

how did I get into employment law? That's such a great question. I've always wanted to be a civil rights attorney. That was a part of The books that I did read, just going back to how books really shaped me, when I— there's a little girl in the American Girl Collection. Her name is Addy.

Mm-hmm.

And she was a slave, and she escaped from slavery to Philadelphia. She grew up in North— or she was born in North Carolina in slavery. She escaped to Philadelphia with her family, and the American Girl Collection chronicles her story, chronicles her escape and her path to freedom and how important education was to her in this on this path. And so I think that story in particular just really made me a bit obsessed with the civil rights movement, what slavery meant, what the 13th Amendment meant. So I've always just loved learning about that period of time. And I think there was a natural progression into my real obsession with justice and wanting to advocate for people and advocate for ideas of fairness and justice. justice and whatever that meant to whoever. And I think I was always the kid on the playground saying, no, that's not fair. I don't— you're a bully. Don't talk to people like that. That's not right. And I was just always advocating for fairness. In law school, or actually undergrad, I was on the Judiciary Committee at UVA. And UVA believes in student self-governance. That's one of the core principles. So students really do assume very important leadership positions at UVA. So there was a first-year judiciary committee, and we actually held trials. And the first-year students— we called ourselves first-years as opposed to freshmen, and second-years, third-years, fourth-years. But the first-year students sat as judges on this judicial panel when there was a violation of the student's code of conduct. So we were actually meting out punishments and sanctions for people—

Wow.

—for students who violated the code of conduct. So it was a huge responsibility, a huge role, because our decisions really did transform a student's life. After your first year, you could apply or you could run to be a judge on the— on the overall panel. As a first-year judge, you were only adjudicating cases regarding first-year students, other first-year students.

Yeah.

But later on, I became a counselor. So in the counselor role, you were able to actually serve as a counselor. You were able to advocate for a student who was before the Judiciary Committee, you know, advocating for certain punishments or to mitigate certain punishments. And you could represent either the school or the student before the judicial panel. So that was just a wonderful opportunity to be an advocate in a real-life setting. I had externships and internships all really dealing with social justice issues. I mean, I won't go through them, but to be concise, I really— they all just really centered in and double-clicked on this idea of social justice. And I just knew I never wanted to relinquish civil rights in my actual practice once I went to law school. Employment law at UVA. Many, many law firms come to UVA to recruit. And I, you know, in law firms, you're representing big corporate conglomerates typically if you join a major law firm. Employment law was really a way for me to still, to represent management and big companies and gain the big law experience, gain the corporate experience, which I'm very, very grateful for, but still really get my hands into civil rights and hopefully, you know, give advice that helped companies companies be more inclusive, you know, to advocate for, or at least to give advice that might make a company better, right? And so those cases, they really did range, but I got a lot of great experience. I knew that, you know, once I had kind of done my time in big law, I was very, very excited. I was very grateful for the opportunity to be an associate at a big law firm, but I knew that I didn't want to do that forever. I really did want to represent individuals in employment disputes and also do more work to help companies become more— become safer, to become more inclusive, do something that would have a greater impact than what I could do within a big law firm. And so 7 years ago, I started my own firm, and my employment practice, really, it's the practice that I'm able to shape on an everyday basis going in the direction that I really wanted to go into. And I have complete autonomy to do that, which I'm really grateful for. Family law certainly was something, especially once my parents got divorced, I really did think about family law. But I actually know the precise moment that I knew I didn't want to be a family law attorney. Now that I'm actually going back through the chronology.

Yeah.

I was an extern with the Juvenile Domestic Relations— or I was with the City Attorney's Office in Richmond, Virginia when I was an undergraduate, actually. This was before I went to law school. We had something at UVA that was— you could do an externship. And you can do it— you could do it during your winter break.

Oh, wow.

And I did that during my winter break in Richmond, Virginia for about a week. It was a very short amount of time, but I was able to see parental termination cases and the termination of rights for parents. And it was the saddest thing. I mean, awful to see parents having their parental rights terminated by the court. And for egregious situations, it wasn't— these weren't minimal situations. They were extremely serious. And I think there was one case of a drug-addicted parent who had come in. They were— they'd really grappled with substance abuse, and I believe they may have been under the influence during that particular trial. But I remember how sad that was. And at that moment, I think I knew that that work was entirely too emotional for me to do.

Yeah.

And my hat goes off to the attorneys who do that work.

Mm-hmm.

They, you know, clearly, they have a skill set that I don't have. I think employment law can be certainly emotional, and we do impact people's lives on a day-to-day basis. I think dealing with children was something that, you know, I write about children, I love children, but it was hard for me to see that particular case and to see how Everyone— there was no perfect solution in that particular case.

Having been a byproduct of as well from a divorced family and just knowing that for the child, that particular moment in their lives, watching this go down, I think I would be like you. So I completely understand. I mean, now you get to fight the fight for the employment side of it. Something that I think about, because I've heard this. I mean, I serve with other types. Obviously, we serve in the legal industry for that, but having friends, colleagues that are attorneys, new attorneys even, and I hear stories. And it's interesting, sometimes I wonder, do other employment attorneys help represent or shape the older generation of employment law attorneys? And have you had that opportunity to help that? Because I know of a case right now. It's not a case yet, but I know of something that's brewing, and I'm like, oh, okay, that's going to be a problem. What— have you had this where it's like one law firm to another, like, you cannot act like this, you need to modern-day yourself?

Well, I was thinking so. So I think— so there are— so there are 2 answers to this. So I think that in terms of mentors, yes, Talk about that. So I have had some wonderful— at my first law firm, I've just had some wonderful mentors as a lawyer. I've been so, so fortunate. I'm really, really about gratitude. And so I always say I'm thankful for things because I really do mean it. I'm very grateful for the mentors that I've had. I clerked for a federal judge right out of law school. That was right before my big law experience. So my judge was just the most wonderful person, and I I still remain in contact with him to this day. When I started my big law experience, I worked for a man named Dan. He was just— he was the managing attorney of my firm, of my office. There was a managing attorney of the entire law firm, but he was the managing attorney of our particular office. And he was from the Midwest, very, very different than me, just mid-50s, I think, had 4, 3 kids, just very different than me. I was just starting my career, but he really took me under his wing and gave me just the most incredible opportunities as a junior associate, gave me the opportunity to argue motions, gave me the opportunity to see him in practice, to see the way that he interfaced with clients. And I just took those memories and I took those— the way that he comported himself in his conversations with opposing counsel. I really do try to exhibit that today. He always remained calm. He was always civil. He— when I was like, Dan, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? I don't know what to do. He's like, Jessica. And he was just so calm. And I think the leader— he had just this way of leading that instilled confidence in his team. So, you know, if we were going to trial and when trial is just a very amped up period, He was just always so calm. And, you know, there's always something that comes about when you are working for large corporations. There's always a new challenge. But he was always so calm, and that made me calm because I realized not everything is a fire drill. And so he was just wonderful in the way that he talked to— he was so respectful to everyone, and it just did not matter who it was. And I love that about him. And I just— I'm so grateful to have practiced under him because I think he really taught me how to practice law. I think in terms of civility in the legal profession, that's something that we often talk about in the industry because being a lawyer is intense. We have intense moments because we have internal pressures, we have external pressures. We have, you know, any given number of people can be upset at any given time. And so civility is important. It's important to be civil with opposing counsel. And, you know, I've had some great opposing counsel. I've had some not so great opposing counsel. I've had an opposing counsel when I was a junior associate who called me honey, which, you know, during a conference call, and it was absolutely inappropriate.

Yeah.

I have— thankfully, I've had less experiences like that and more experiences with opposing counsel Who is civil. And that is, I think, the best thing for your client. That's the best thing for the industry because we are often trying to— we're all— we're always trying to just be the most zealous advocates. That is actually our ethical duty, to be zealous advocates for our clients. So I've heard horror stories.

Mm-hmm.

Thankfully, I haven't had horror stories. I've had things that were frustrating and inconvenient, and, uh, but I haven't had any, knock on wood, any horror stories.

So do your, do your writings in these children's books come back to you in these times when you have challenges and problems and help temper you? You're like, what would she do? Or what have I learned from her? Even though you, you created her and wrote about her. I can only imagine that she would pop in and say, okay, let's look at it this way, or what did I learn from this?

Great questions. These are amazing questions. Thank you. And I have a lot of these.

I'm dying to know.

These are— so that is— I— so often I will think about Juris P. Prudence because Juris P. Prudence has a nemesis in her— in the books. So I think about how I would want jurists to practice, and how I would want kids to proceed if they are, or how I would want them to act if they are facing a nemesis, a bully, you know, not to, you know, really to take that higher road and not to go low, not to name-call, but to really use your words, be communicative, be civil, be kind. Those are the— those are the messages that I teach in jurisprudence books. And so when interacting, I think there's always a level of profession that you should always be professional when you are, you know, if you are in a contentious situation, it's really, really important for just your professional reputation just to be a good human, to be civil. And, you know, I'm often, you know, in situations where I don't agree with the other side. On a position that you always have to separate the person from the position, right? Like this—

Good advice.

So that's— our positions might be different, but we're still humans. I can still say, have a good, you know, good morning, have a good weekend. Um, it's, it's very effective when you can communicate with the other side. And I think that applies not in the law, but in any interaction. You know, we are facing, you know, big issues. We're facing in the work that you all do, you're really telling the story of companies with their numbers, and it's so important to be so attentive to detail. And I know that when I am— I was, I think I was telling you, Sarah, that I don't like talking to my accountant. It's like, it makes me nervous. I don't like numbers, but I know that when that conversation happens, I'm going to have 1,000 questions. And if I don't understand something, it's not— it's important to just stay calm. It's not, you know, we shouldn't lead with assumptions. We should lead with questions. And we should let the other person always, whether it applies to your interactions with your vendors, you know, with your team, I think leading with less judgment, leading with more curiosity. is always more effective.

I love it.

And bullying is a big thing, right, for kids. I'm so grateful that my kids were, you know, out. They were— well, my daughter's 40. So, you know, you look at the life that they grew up with, and then I look at the younger kids and I think about that, how bad the bullying could be on social media. I could see how sometimes emails we get that you just misinterpret the text or the email. And it can be difficult, and especially for a kid growing up, because those are kind of formative years where you're— it's easy to react. And to give yourself some space and grace around some of that and not react is hard. And it's something that an adult brain has to still work on, never mind a child. So those are the good stories because that happens. And like you said, act professional, be professional. Don't just— don't go as low as somebody. Because you always have to think— my mom always taught me, you always have to think that what was happening in their day. So if somebody comes at me, I go, okay, this is out of character. So I wonder what happened in their day. And especially with like family law, we were talking about family lawyers are just so high in the emotions. I always feel for those clients of ours because they, they just live in that all the time. And you don't know what happened in court. And how it can be difficult, like in your story, it can be really difficult for them. And you can't help but absorb it. We're human. We're human. So it's going to be hard. And I think that those stories alone, and not just the fact that you're giving an example of this, you can be an attorney, but also in the stories behind the story. So those things like how to act as a good human being are important too. So you're giving those little life lessons, which is great.

Thank you so much. And that is the question. To your point, Linda, it very much, you never know what's going on in the background. I mean, I do— I train companies on how to speak up. I train employees and companies on how to speak up when they are enduring bullying. So I think it's important to use your words and communicate, you know, what this— how something is making you feel, you know, not, you know, necessarily roll over, but let the person know, this is how this is affecting me. This is what you said. This is what you've done. This is how it affected me. This is my perspective. I do think it's important to empower people to speak up for themselves, but also to do it in a way that is civil. It doesn't have to be a confrontation, but I think you speak up in a way that is civil is very important.

I love that you bring this up because I think in light of what you're saying, Linda and Jessica, you're reminding me currently right now with the current politics, the current world as it is today. As adults, I read these articles about this workplace bullying that is happening. It trickles in and it becomes this polar divide. And it changes the company culture so deeply that you're reminding me it's the voice that goes on both sides and how— So I'm wondering, you must have gotten busier, obviously, during this period of time, because I feel like, if anything, now than ever, there's more of a need, because I find us sliding into more gray spaces and less bumpers. Like, this is the adage. This is what sexual harassment was. This is what it is now. This, you know.

Yeah.

So how does it look to you right now? I mean, obviously, you can't divulge a lot of things, But as a professional, what in general, the cases that you're looking at, are they shifting? And what is it that you're seeing that's being more heightened, I guess?

So, I mean, the landscape has certainly changed. When I became— when I started my practice, it was 2016. Uh, the election, the, the 2016 election was happening around this time. I started my practice, I started my firm in August of 2015.

Okay, we can I just say you and I both started our practices in 2016. I was turning four. I turned 40 that year, and I was like, this is just too kismet.

Like, I'm sorry. I love the universe. So we're both we just celebrated our seven year. This is amazing. So when we see each other, hopefully we'll see each other at WeBank. Yeah. Are you all going to WeBank? I'm sorry. I didn't even like. I don't know if we talked about WeBank, but we didn't. We didn't.

But okay. I mean, whenever I see you next, I'm gonna celebrate. Great with you.

Okay, perfect, perfect. Um, so yes, 2016, it was a very scary— personally for me, a very scary time. There were, there were lots of things going on in the world, very, very divided. I think that was like the height of our— well, I think that was the precursor to, yeah, to, you know, what would happen 4 years from that time. So, yes, many, many things happened in the world in the time that I have practiced law that were—

Yeah.

In the times I practiced law as a law firm managing attorney with my own firm that were very different. MeToo happened in 2018. George Floyd happened in 2020. Now we see what's going on in Gaza. And so it's just so many— there's so many things that are going on at Bostic, the case that actually outlawed LGBTQ+ discrimination in the workplace on the Supreme Court level. That happened in, I believe, 2017 or 2018. That case was issued. And so, so many seismic shifts, so many conversations about diversity, equity, and inclusion happened and still are happening in a way that are transformative. And it really— this is an evolving area. So what's going on, I think, in the workplace is that, number one, there's more awareness on topics that were never discussed before. Companies are far more sensitive to anti-harassment training and are trying to actually implement anti-harassment training. In 2018, many, many states required that companies train their employees in anti-harassment. So California, New York, Illinois, Connecticut, there were about 7 states that passed legislation requiring anti-harassment training. That had always been a great practice, but it was not compulsory before 2018 for those states. So many, many companies latched on And they're just doing it as a matter of course because they know it is a good— it's really an important practice for the mitigation of risk. But many of these states, they did require it. DC now requires this training for certain industries, the tipped wage worker industry. So these are just a few examples of what happened in the employment law space that were seismic shifts.

Mm-hmm.

had not occurred before, and they happened in such a short amount of time. 7 years is not a lot of time. And it was, you know, the kind of the perfect storm because these issues didn't just pop up, right? They— but they happened in such a short amount of time where companies really were trying to figure out, you know, how can we talk about these issues that are very sensitive? How can we talk about them in an educated way? in a way that's sensitive and that, you know, is going to make sure that every voice is included. So that happened. And then in the workplace, I think people were afraid, you know, they're in the employees, they were many, you know, populations that I represent are underrepresented populations. And so there, you know, have been a number of discrimination, retaliation, harassment cases that come my way on an everyday basis. And so that's never— I don't think that's a new phenomenon. I think that before I was born, those cases were in existence. But I will say that for 7 years, I've remained busy.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I mean, I'm glad you— I shockingly, both being that we started in that, I remember thinking to myself, okay, what does this landscape look like to me? Am I— at that time feeling, am I too old? Is this the right time? And I was like, yeah, just go for it. We did the right thing. We went for it.

And it's—

Indeed. I think that that's— once you hit that, you know, 7, you wonder, because I actually had not represented employees before I left big law. So it was something that I wanted to do. You know, but it was something— I only represented corporations, but I knew there was a need. And so that is— and so the need hopefully will— I mean, I hope that there will be a time in which employees will not have to file claims against their companies. I hope that we can become a society in which companies really understand what's going, you know, where the hotspots are, where are the places that they can get better, where's the You know, who are the bad actors? How can we either eliminate the bad actors or help them become more aware of their behavior? So with my practice, I'm able to do both. I'm able to help train companies and give them the tools that they need to be more compliant and to understand the diverse populations with which they work. So they're not making— they're not, you know, instituting microaggressions. That's something that you don't even, you know, know what they are unless you have a conversation about them. So sometimes I think that from a bird's eye view, what I think is that when we don't have conversations, when we don't have conversations that are actually real conversations, we do a lot of things that we might not even know are offensive. And so having conversations can often mitigate— having important, transformative, valuable conversations can Mitigate risk more than anything else. How do you like that person that called you honey?

They probably didn't even realize that that that was just not you know not the thing to do. We had it happen one time with Sarah and I. The guy called us broads, and we were like, but I'm like okay, they're from the middle of Florida.

No, actually, it was a female. It was a female calling other female. ladies or gals in a, in a very demeaning way. And I don't mean to cut you off, Steve, because I want to hear your question.

It's okay.

That, that just that subtlety and, and not knowing that the background story, the cultural stories that go on, or the background story to having saying those things, I feel like generation I'm raising as my son And hearing him say— and I made a comment. He said, you cannot say that. And I'm like, oh, well, that's interesting that you're telling me I cannot say that. The sensitivity has shifted at this youth right now, and it's going to change our trajectory. But yeah, Steve, please, by all means, ask. You were going to ask.

No, this is what you just said is a perfect segue in. And I'd like to ask, when there's those elephants in the room, that everybody are afraid of that are allowing this negative behavior to continue. How do you counsel people on positive boundary setting for a good outcome?

So when we are training, I like to start with agreements that we're, that we're making. So if there is a group training that, and I'm offering anti-harassment training or respectful workplace this training, I want to make sure that we are all in agreement on certain things. There are— we're going to be respectful. There are no wrong answers. Uh, questions are good. Uh, so that is one of the— in terms of boundary setting, how do we—

Healthy boundaries.

Healthy, healthy. Yeah. Like, you don't want to have, I guess, that twist of negativity, right?

Is what I want.

I want to— I want them to know that they hear me, Or that I hear them. But this is my healthy boundary.

I think, Steve, to table that or to add to it is we have employees, but we also have colleague to colleague from— we're in the same— like, we're different professions, but we're in the same professional service serving industry. You have a business owner to a business owner, or the fear of talking to your accountant, not because of this, but numbers, right? But having that healthy, like, yeah, that's actually beyond the scope, or those aren't the conversations we need to be having right now, is how to articulate that space, I feel, is kind of what you're going with. Am I catching you right on that? OK. All right.

I think it's important just to— I think there's often this desire not to state your boundary because you think you're going to be rude.

Exactly. Exactly.

I think that that is a very— and I won't say that I am the best at this in my own personal life and in my own professional life. I really have to— I really struggle with this.

Boundaries are difficult.

For sure, 1,000%. So I can train better on it than I can do it. But I will say that, and I counsel people to be very frank about it. Don't be passive-aggressive about it. Don't make it ambiguous. Be very clear. Because in any agreement that I'm actually drafting, I want so clear. I want to make sure that in any email that I'm sending, I want to— with my written language, I always want to be so, so clear so that there's no ambiguity. I take out words that are ambiguous so that it's just really clear and frank. And my intention is never to be rude. I'm not a rude person. I'm just very, very clear. At least I try to be. And so with communication, I think it's important that you are just as clear as you can be, understanding that clarity is not rude. It's just— it makes for so many— it makes for far less problems down the road when you can just be clear, because it's not like, oh, what did you mean by that? No. Well, like, I'm like, this is exactly— this is exactly what I meant. See, it's what you get, right? And so I really think that clarity— and you can often soften language too, right? If you feel that someone has taken that clarity to be rude, you can— it doesn't always have to be cold.

Yeah.

It can still— but so I think it's really balancing being clear, but also being sensitive, being empathetic. And I think you can do both at the same time. But clarity when you are trying to set boundaries, if something is— if there's a question that you don't want asked, or if there is something that you think— if you think your management can be more transparent with data, if you need something from your client that you're not getting, if you need something from the other side, it's very clear to say, I like this. I— if a client is habitually late, if—

Mm-hmm.

You know, whatever situation that you just need to set a boundary on. Like, my time is very important. I think, you know, being paid, being paid on time, very important. Having scheduled meetings. For me, it's really about like, I'm very big on my calendar. I really like, um, you know, everything scheduled. I don't like to take unscheduled calls. My family, they're like, we can never get in touch with you. Oh my God, get on my calendar.

Is it on my calendar? It's not happening.

You It's so funny you say that.

So I can't— like, if I was your— if we were doing your accounting, I couldn't just call you up like, did you see that P&L? Are you okay with that? That would terrify you.

Like, yeah, I would if it's an emergency or something. Like, we were like, you know, we're, you know, we're talking about something. I just— it's just something I prefer. It's not— and, and actually all like flexible when needed, but it's like, if this Like, if I know, like, this helps me do my work better, I really like focus times. You know, with my assistants, it's like they know, please make sure that everything is on the calendar whenever any date is announced.

Yeah.

You know, it's immediately put it on the calendar because then if it's not, that can lead to all— that can inconvenience everyone. And so, and it can just— it really— it has never been ridiculously catastrophic. But with one thing that's not on the calendar, we don't want scheduling conflicts that, you know, require other people to be inconvenienced. So I just think that those are just things that you have to be clear about. And I would prefer clarity than later on being in some, you know, uncomfortable situation because of a miscommunication.

Well, don't you find that, that if you have healthy boundaries— and this is one of the reasons I admire both of these ladies, I absolutely— the sun rises and sets on them. One of the things, the strengths that I get from Sarah and watching her, and Linda and I have talked about this, you know where I'm going, Linda.

Oh, absolutely.

She can set healthy boundaries with people and get through and get to where we need to go. She's so good at that. And it's something to admire and something to watch and something to learn from. And I think that you have better self-respect if you can find a way to listen and to communicate your healthy boundary rather than having it escalate into something that just becomes absurd for everybody. You know?

Truthfully agree. And I think that there are, like, when I question if there is a workplace dispute, my first question is, if I'm representing an employee, well, have you reported You know, have you said something about it?

Right.

Also, when I look at the communication, it's so passive-aggressive. It's so— it's not clear because no one wants to say—

Well, it gets emotional.

Or it could get emotional. And the same for companies. It's like, well, have you— how have you communicated that someone, you know, may not be meeting a standard? And it can often be really couched in lots of ambiguous language. And I think that that creates many, many issues down the road because people want to know about their performance. They want to know how they're doing in the workplace. They want to know if they're on target for a promotion. And if they're not just being very, very clear about— I think both sides, I think we can really— we can take the emotion out of it. It's about clarity.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that that is one of the biggest hurdles in workplaces in general is Maybe we don't know how to communicate as well, being clear. Also learning how people want to be respected and not respected, or learning how people want to be respected, how they exhibit and give, how they exhibit respect and receive respect is very important. And so those conversations and opening up a forum for those conversations to happen to me is critical.

I love this because often I'm told I'm very direct. I'm the one that reviews all of our emails pretty much when challenges arise, and I'm clear. It's to the point. So I appreciate that because this is this conversation. But I mean, it's just like the whole thing is like it's super on point. I know we didn't talk about numbers, we didn't talk about accounting, but we have to understand when we're— I feel that in general, when we're speaking to other professionals, whether we serve them in industry or we're, we're in that same line of path, that we're— that it isn't always about our numbers. It's, it's about dialogue. It's about communication, and it's about understanding where you're going to go. And I, in my mind, I have like a few little questions. I'm like, where do we see Jessica in the future? I have an idea of what I think, but I won't— it's you. It's your path. Like, where, where she might be driving. The other thing I gotta tell you, girlfriend, I have— you got on Mel Robbins posting. Like, I— this woman, we started around the same time, right, in our business, and she was like the first person I've been listening to. She was always in my ear, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, all these little things, and owning your voice and owning your crap and showing up the way you need to show up. And that's the way I have led these This last several years. So kudos to you.

Thank you so much.

Listen, to have her on this podcast just to, like, have those moments. But I'm so thrilled, wholeheartedly thrilled, when I saw that post come up.

I'm like, thank you. Thank you so much. It was— I literally, like, I was just such a fan, you know. We were sitting in line together and we got front row seats to see her speak. Uh, Mel Robbins is just You know, just one of my favorites. And she's in your ear. And I think we're both podcast fanatics. And so I'm like, I absolutely love— when you all invited me to this podcast, I'm like, absolutely, because you all are both amazing. And Steve, we met today, but you are amazing.

Oh, bless your heart. Thank you.

But yes, I definitely was really thrilled to meet Mel Robbins and to hear her speak at Clio Con. And then thank you For the posting, I was literally like, this can't be.

Mel Robbins, are you listening to this? Mel Robbins? Mel Robbins?

Oh my gosh.

I absolutely hope that one day she will be on your show because that has been such a fun episode.

Oh, thank you so much. So in closing, where does the future of Jessica— should I say Attorney Jessica, Lawyer Jess, like, what's your grandma's name?

And Juris.

And Juris. Yeah. Where, where does this path lead you? Do we stay as the boutique firm or we move ahead? Like, yeah, so I'm curious.

I would be thrilled to write more children's books. I would love to expand Juris P. Prudence's story because I think she has many, many more journeys and many, many more issues to take on. Um, I— Joris is running for president in the next book next year, so she's, you know, there are lots of things and, and paths for her. And so I really want her voice to expand. Uh, in terms of the Childress Firm, I really look forward to making sure that we get our trainings out to the world, our inclusion trainings, our respectful workplace trainings, our anti-harassment trainings to the world, because I think that that delivers impact at scale. And so those are the 2 goals that I have for the future. So next year and beyond, those are my 2 focus points. But in general, I'm just so, you know, I'm just very, very grateful for every day and for this journey for these last 7 years and to meet people like you. That's one of the things that I, as an associate working at a large law firm, I didn't have the opportunity to just meet so many wonderful people, so many wonderful business owners, and to have conversations like this where I'm able to connect with people on deep levels. I mean, we talked at our table when we were sitting down waiting for Mel to— we talked about life. And these are the conversations that I think make us all better because we're meeting people from all over. You know, you all are in Seattle and Florida. And Steve, where are you?

I'm in the Denver area.

Okay, so awesome. And I mean, I think that these are the conversations and these are the types of relationships that just make us better people. And to have friends from all over, I think that that is really what I love. I love meeting friends from everywhere.

If there was ever a time for someone like you With your incredibly wonderful, beautiful smile and energy to spread a message in the world. It's right now. Yes. Your message is so needed. And this is a door opening for you. And this is— I mean, I'm just grateful that I met you today. I'm like, my heart is full.

Thank you so much, Steve. And likewise, this has really been a pleasure. And I have done a number of podcasts, but this Like having conversations. And I, I feel like it might be just because I feel like I know you all like so well. We literally saw each other almost every day for 3, 2, 3 days.

I will never miss a conference again.

Oh, you have to come too. I'm going to make sure that for the next big conference I'm going to, I think it's going to be WeBank in Denver next year. Oh, yes, I would definitely. And this is not an endorsement for, for any organization. But I do that. I know that I plan definitely to be there, and I definitely hope that—

I'm writing it down right now.

Perfect. And if I don't, when I'm out on the West Coast or the Midwest, I'm certainly going to give you all a call.

Awesome. We would love that.

It's great having you with us today. Thank you. And great story. I'm sure we'll put all the links here. We'll put them all in the podcast notes. Oh, yeah. Find you, find your books, everything. And hopefully we inspired somebody to at least get your books and start to think in a different way and really to be inspired. And I think we're all inspired today by having you here.

Thank you so much, Jessica. This was absolutely lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely. So yeah.

Thank you all.

Tiara, do you want to take us out, love?

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And to learn more about Jessica Childress and to order her book, Jessica, it was our pleasure to have you, and we, we really are inspired. We hope you can come back someday and we'll hear more stories because I would love to be in a courtroom with you.

Yeah. Yeah.

I would love to watch her.

I say that the whole time.

Yeah, just watch her in action. But thank you.

Thank you. From the bottom of our heart. Thank you. And I'm just, again, I'm so very honored that you all had me, and this was really, really, really This was really fun. super fun. Like this, I mean, I really had a great time. And sometimes I'm really, really nervous on podcasts, but you just— your questions were just excellent. Naturally, some ones that I really want to go back to when I'm journaling about JP and her age. I think those are provocative, interesting, and thoughtful questions. So thank you.

I assume that you're on Amazon.

There'll be a little Sarah in your book someday.

Arab American running around in the book.

We will know.

You know, we're always like her group of friends. They— it was all— and I'll let you all go, but her group of friends, they are— they all started off as girls. Now she has 3, 4, I think, guy friends in her circle. But she's certainly expanding her group of friends and just her experiences. And we are on Amazon, Steve, to answer your question. Yep.

It's in my cart because I'm going to get I mean, this, this part—

It's a great gift.

Yeah, it's a great— I'm gonna get it as a gift for somebody. I don't wanna—

I was just gonna say, I'm gonna give this book, these books, as gifts to some younger people I know.

Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I very much appreciate your support. That really means a lot to me.

All right. Wonderful. Thank you.

Well, have a great weekend, and we'll be in touch.

Definitely.

All right. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.