Modernize Your Law Firm

Welcome to Accountants Law Pod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Steven Libhart. Welcome back to the podcast, everybody. And today we're actually going to talk about something that is happening on January 12th. So I don't know if this is even going to land before that. Probably not. It's probably going to be out by the time we talk. So I wrote a book. So, and it's kind of funny.

I wrote a book.

Is that Not at all.

Yeah. I, um, I was— I never stay much on LinkedIn. Like, I have a LinkedIn presence, and I obviously, social media-wise, I'll— I post a lot. And apparently one day this person was— had been reading my posts, and he reached out, and I actually read the direct message. Usually I stay out of that because it's a lot of, hey, can you hire me? I'm a bookkeeper, you know, um, I'm wherever, and I'm a bookkeeping company. And it's all it is, is spam, or it's other people that spam, spam, spam, and how come you haven't answered me? Like, they'll ask you repeated questions. So I try to stay out of my direct messages there. It's like the worst place to reach out. But I happen to see this message from this person, and I was like, what if this is real? So I started digging back into— and he definitely was somebody that worked at this publisher. He's like, we really like you to write a book about how to modernize a law firm. And he didn't use those words. He used a different set of words, like, how do you Technology-wise, you seem like you really know what you're talking about and help these attorneys get to a better place than paper or pen and handwriting checks. So, um, yeah, he reached out and I said okay, and the book was born. It took a very long time to write, uh, but mostly not so much writing it but rewriting it and fixing it. And does this seem right? And Working for the outline was the hardest part. And then once we had the outline figured out— my dog— so once we had the outline figured out, we just kept going forward from there. And yeah, so, and Sarah, I think you both had an opportunity to read it, right?

Yes. Yeah, we— Steve and I both did. It was kind of a competition between us to go through and read it.

I think Steve won, right?

I think you did.

Yeah, I'm okay with that.

I'm good with that sometimes, you know. It was good. Um, but, uh, Steve, I thought there were parts in there that were— it was almost comical to read because it was like we were going back in history.

Well, Steve lived it with me, so—

I mean, parts— I, I mean, you did actually too. Yeah, you started pretty young, and some of that, that I mean, if you think about today's society, we're moving so fast. It feels like that. It feels fast. Life feels fast. But yeah, anyways, I like the way you wrote your comparisons in the book.

Back in the old days, we used to have these transcribing machines and dictaphones and fax machines and all. And you said, I remember this specifically, you said, and there's so many law firms that still have fax machines.

Do you remember when they first came out and I was like, how does this— I couldn't—

How does it work?

How does it get through the line, the phone line? You had to hook it up to the phone line and it just seems so crazy that you could send it through. And this is going back a long time ago. I mean, I can remember having, you know, having that machine that you put the check in and embossed the check with this old antique thing and That was like, I guess you could—

Do you remember those big transcribing machines that they would have for the paralegals and the legal assistants and all of that? And they'd sit there with their headphones on with these gigantic machines and be doing that.

And I was like, well, that was like a class that you could take in high school.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's not a class today.

And shorthand. I took shorthand class. I mean, I'm—

did you like shorthand? Were you good at it?

I loved it. I was good.

I loved it too.

But you know what's so funny? Using it in modern day now, it— some of the basics. I mean, I had people ask me, why do you put F/U? Are you telling me to F—

you know, I was like, no, no, no, it's shorthand.

So I had to be careful about— because it doesn't translate.

Yeah.

Anyways. Yeah.

I know, it's, it's really funny because that was like my favorite class in school when in the business courses that I took.

In the business courses. Yeah. Yeah.

Mine was the metronome in typing class. Oh, they would have a metronome, and we had to type to the speed of the metronome, and then she'd speed it up.

And that would make me so like—

oh yeah, that would give me class.

Oh, it was fun. It was like a— it was like a contest. It's a challenge, you know. And, um, there was one other thing, and it came to my mind, and now I think it just went away, you— that you talked about. Um, dude, it'll come back. But I really like how you wrote in the book how you, you took— you take the reader back to what it was And what it can be now. And, you know, we still to this day come across a lot of law firms that haven't modernized.

Yeah.

You know, and they know it and they know that they need to do it to catch up. And they, you know, to the KPI point, you look at their labor costs and, you know, what that's doing to their firm and all those sorts of things. And can you talk a little bit about how you brought your readers? Because I really like the way you did it, how you brought them from the old days to the new days.

Yeah, because it's called Modernize Your Law Firm and it's trying to take you from the journey from— and I've been doing this officially now, 2024, this is my 25th year of running my own firm. Yeah.

Congratulations.

Yeah. But prior to that, I was an employee and I worked at different places. A law firm was one of them. And I can remember actually way, way going way back. I was— my first job was 15 years old. I was an intern working at a law firm. And guess what the job I had was? It was filing because nobody liked to file, right? We think about that, just that aspect, because we don't file like we used to file. Everything's digitized and it's put in a place and so much faster to retrieve. You're not going digging through a desk and think about all the space that those filing cabinets would take up.

Well, do you remember those big filing walls with the wheels, the steering wheels on them?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, one of my gigs was I had to open mail and organize it and then hand it out to the different accounting cubicles. And because they had the little thing on their desk too, right?

You put it in the little desk where you put the mail, the little box.

The little box. But the little alphabet organized, like when you're talking filing, I think about, okay, you always had to like get that stuff done first on that accordion thing. Yeah, that big flat thing that you— yeah. And I always wanted the blue one, and somebody—

All that stuff's gone. We don't do any of that anymore.

I'm sure I could find one.

It's interesting, though, when you think about, like, even when I was trying to find some pictures to go in the book that were of all those, it was really hard to even find photos of that old school. Like, remember the Rolodex?

Oh, I love Rolodex days. Yeah, I used to play with those. Those were fun.

I remember walking into estate sales right now. How much are those damn things worth? How much?

Decorations now. But yeah, I can remember when Microsoft Access came out and how excited I was for that because I could take the Rolodex and put it in this place in a computer. And now the ability to sort and The enable details in and tag. And yeah.

How about WordPerfect? There's so many firms that are still stuck on WordPerfect, and I don't get it. I don't understand. It just makes no sense to me why they still are so adamant on sticking with WordPerfect. Do any of you have any ideas why?

It's the— probably that analogy, if it's not broken, don't fix it, kind of thing.

They have all their stuff in it too, because you think about it, how many— you think about Clio, right? You can have these templates and Put the fields in and populate all that, how much time that can save. But they don't— nobody uses those things. It's hard to find people who actually use those features.

Or maybe it's the attitude of like, you know, the time it takes time to do, like, to your point. And I understand that. I mean, look at where we are today with AI coming into the space. What, it's been a year now since November that Wow, that's hard to believe. Changed, right?

Yeah.

It's crazy to think that we've lived with it for, like, tangibly lived with it for a year in something.

And that's changed a lot too, because in the beginning it was really rugged. And it's still like the other day, it's great for rewriting an email. I'll give it that. Not always perfect. You have to have the right prompts. But the same thing, you have to be really careful with it and you really have to make sure your staff is careful with it, which is part of what I go through in the book too, is when we get up in the AI section, you know, and this is so new. It's like almost, I'm afraid that when the book comes out, it's gonna be so much further. And it's coming out in a couple weeks, so I'll be fine. But it's, it has changed since I wrote it. Mm-hmm. And it's gotten better.

Yeah.

But even with that, there's some things I will do with it, but a lot of things I just sit back and go, uh, no, not yet. It's not ready. But you said something one day, Steve, that was really, um, I thought it was a great analogy. You said, remember when, when Google came out and the cloud stuff came out?

Yeah.

And we were like, what the heck is a cloud? And that wasn't that long ago that this stuff came forward. And now, just who has desktop software on their computer? We know clients that do because attorneys still cling to that. But most people, it's second nature to open up a browser or have 15 browser tabs, or in Sarah's case, 400, and just pop from one to the other. And It's normal, normal, right? And I was talking about this with somebody the other day. We were talking about our first computer, and I think it had 8 gigs in it, or not even— it must have been megabytes. I don't know. It was so— and I thought it was such a big deal.

Whatever they were, even that close to that.

They weren't gigs, they were just 8 of something. And I remember being like, wow, think of what I could put on that. And I remember thinking I would never fill that. And then the next runs that came out were 16. So I've now doubled whatever that measurement was. And I knew I had gotten to capacity. And I know even with our computers today, Sarah got us the best and the greatest and the best. And I had to go through and clean some stuff out of mine because it was like, you don't have any space left. Partially because I record a lot of videos and the videos are here. I had to move everything off of them.

Yeah.

But yeah, you think about this is the steps of technology that seem like they happen really fast, but in essence they have progressed over the years. But when you start to look back in the Wayback Machine, nothing's more fun than looking up at your website in the Wayback.

Oh, I know that they have digital recordings of that. And that is— I mean, it's used in trademarks a lot to see establishments of things like that, that you have to look at. How was the website written initially? When was it established? Those are all like part of the legal profession for that stuff when you're looking through that trademark. lens. But, um, I think about that with AI, like copyright and trademark stuff.

I mean, that's something that's going to be big because now they're going to be able to take your image, they can take your voice.

Yeah, I mean, it's scary, some of that stuff that's going on. It's funny because I— the generation that I'm in, I'm in that bridged generation that has had some of the stuff that was old and fast forward to new like that. So it just— we're in that space of uniqueness, and I feel like Just this morning when we were talking on the Law Lab, the comment about where did 2023 go? It's like, yeah, we lived and breathed it, but it did feel like it was light years faster than it should have been. I just don't feel like it was a— because when I was talking about COVID the other day about what people did during that time, and I'm— I like, I like to watch basketball. So I'm sitting there watching basketball, and I was thinking back to What we were doing during all the accommodations. And I'm thinking, that wasn't that long ago, but it feels ages back.

And that's another part of the book too, is because that really did change the legal industry. It gave them the kick in the derriere that it needed.

It did.

Some of these firms ticking forward, I think we'd still be with a lot of firms. I think that that helped accelerate some of the—

You captured that so well in the book, that transition. Like what Steve was asking you to talk about before, how you went to the way back, but that transition and highlighting all of those subtle— they were some of them small, some of them monumental for firms.

Yeah, if there was a silver lining out of COVID it was how it did kick things in the butt. Excuse my expression, but it did. It kicked them in the butt and really moved things along. And that was for our industry, for our niche. What we do. I mean, man, we just— we exploded during COVID I mean, it was crazy.

Well, we were ahead of the curve. A lot of us were already.

We were. You're right. You're right.

As accountants, we were. But the lawyers weren't.

Yeah, law firms. No, the fact that, you know, you could do court on Zoom now and how it was going to be offered. I mean, video technology has been around. No one ever thought that this could help out. I mean, sure, certain moments you have to be present. But at the time, none of us were going anywhere. You weren't supposed to do big holiday gatherings.

Do you remember those? Think about it. Before, when we first started, before COVID right? And then COVID happened. How many meetings did we have with attorneys? There was no camera, just their name on the block. And then after COVID, now you're getting to see more people. Now, before, it was like, oh, I don't have speakers on my thing. I had to call you in on my phone. And there was a lot of that. I don't have a camera on my computer. And a lot of that changed, too. Maybe they weren't telling the truth.

I don't know.

No, I love that.

you brought that up because I will say in our current today, and Steve, I think we chatted about this, you really do. If you're going to show up and say, oh, I couldn't get it to work. I mean, it only happened to me recently because I had a Wi-Fi outage. But if you're going to show up and you're going to be on your phone and then work on your computer and tell me you can't meet with me in a professional manner this way, that's not okay anymore.

Not anymore. You're right.

Yeah. Right. Like we were kind of talking about, like, Show up. And business is conducted so differently in so many ways. I mean, ecommerce has exploded. I forgot what the—

Actually, Amazon's seeing a reduction in their sales because people— plus, I think part of it, too, was supply and demand. So we had this— it felt like you couldn't get certain things because some things like supplies for cleaning and things weren't there. So that inflated a lot of the sales. I think people started to hoard a little bit. Which we hadn't done that probably since the Depression. People didn't get so crazy about not getting something.

Exactly.

And then that came out of the pandemic because we had supply chain issues.

Well, online sales in general, though, were up like a huge percentage from the year before. And we see this with ecommerce, but we're also seeing to kind of what you were saying in the book, it's— you're seeing people spread out basically the different offerings, the different accommodations. And no one could ever forget the dang cat video and the attorney.

I saved that just when I feel like I'm down. I'll watch that because that video just cracks me up every time I see it. Because, you know, you know that person who's like, I think their grandkid put it on and the cat— I know I'm not a cat.

Or you've got the wrong name.

Well, you know, one thing that's helped, I think, in our country is that over the last decade or so, we've really worked on outsourcing things overseas so much.

Wow.

And they've embraced technology much more than we did. And, you know, that brought us up to speed. It forced us to, to really embrace upgrading our firms and what we, what we use and how we communicate and all of that. Have you, have you taken your book early on to any attorneys and Said, test this out, drive it out, test it.

I haven't. It's not fully published, so it comes out January 12th, and then they're going to send me 5 copies, and I can obviously buy some copies and hand them out if I want to sign them or whatever.

But yeah, I'm sure you were kind of in that space where you were only allowed to share for so many people.

Yeah.

Interesting to, like, what you're saying, Steve, is maybe there are some treasures that we can You know, this book could— might ring a bell for some people, help them down the road.

Well, I, I'm looking forward to when the book comes out because I would like to buy some to give as gifts to people.

Oh, Steve.

I'm serious. Some of my— some of the law firms that I've really struggled with on modernizing some things, it's like, here you go. This is a real thing.

Are you gonna post it, tab the chapters? I would probably go as far as to do that.

Oh, that's a great idea.

There you go. But I mean, there's sections in the book too. We talk about technology, but we also talk about some of the safeguards that you need to do in technology audits. And I think I provided a link in there too that, that shared where they can follow steps like a report card of whether or not you need this software or not. Uh, there was a study on this morning that talked about how a lot of people are doing that. They're going through all their maybe Hulus and Netflix and deciding which one they want because they signed up for 5 of them and they're not watching them all. And it's the same thing with software you buy for your firm. If you've bought it and you're paying a monthly fee, but you're not using it. So it's kind of— there's a whole section on that. There's also a whole section on—

I like that.

I don't want to give away too much of the book, but also a whole section on safeguarding your firm from ransomware and all that, what steps you should do to make sure that you keep your firm— because that's, that's something I think as business owners, and we're all business owners, it's something you worry about because you know what you would do to control it, but you can't control every single person that works underneath you. You have to educate them to make sure that they understand what to do. And there's also a great— and this one kind of was very easy to write— Google versus Microsoft, because it's a great debate. And there's a whole section on whether or not you should use Google over Microsoft. But yeah, there's a lot of different sections in There's some stories in there to kind of woven in, so you could hear real-life stories of things that we've encountered with people, that success stories basically of where we've been able to modernize firms and move them out of their way of doing their work that's redundant, or it's just slow and clunky. I mean, even in the Law Lab today, just listening to one of our members talk about workflow and how she had to design a methodology to work with her client that he was doing it very paper-centric before, and she worked through to kind of get that so that the next time a matter closes, she's able to tie it up beautifully in, in a bow and have it be completely compliant. I think that that's one of the bigger pieces of the work that we do that you really have to ensure that you do have it. That you have the work done properly and that it stays compliant. And, you know, very rare do we get somebody that comes to us with books that, that are in perfect order, and we always have to kind of clean them up and help them get their work.

The other thing too, as you were talking, Linda, I was thinking like some of the things that we come up against, and I, I know Steve has shared this with us too, is they want physically somebody in the office. Okay, what's the benefit to that? There you have to weigh out the benefit. Does it make sense to be paying for those sorts of things, or does it make sense to, you know, do business in a different way? And so the value of that is interesting for some firm owners and for ourselves. I think again the accountants have adopted the profession in a more modern-day sense at a faster rate, and we're like Professions in a lot of ways.

Yeah. And we don't hourly bill. We haven't hourly billed in a long time. And the legal profession still does that. Yeah, I think that's another thing that would be nice to see in the modernization world that they get out of this. It really binds you to an amount that you've capped off now that you can make. And I think a lot of times it's an education process to say, look, it is. This is— and they think in their head they're actually billing $40,000. I don't know how. I mean, there's no way you could bill $40,000 until you show them. Yeah. So if you show them in their reporting.

Yeah.

But a lot of them, if they're in this clunky old antiquated systems, they don't even have the way to get the metrics out. So the biggest part about modernizing your firm is getting the metrics out, and we're able to do so much more. Oh, it's January 18th. Sierra is correcting me. You know, it's so much more to get The data out and being able to resort it. And that's the thing about when we go through the historical walk back in time and back to where it was grid sheets. I mean, you were able to get how much you're getting in that overview. And then did you ever use OneWrite Plus like I described in the book where you're with the carbon paper? Remember all the sheets of paper?

Oh, yeah.

Really hard with your pen to make it go through all the layers. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Even if you think about it, like in retail shops back in the day, those receipts, you were— the register was just to put the cash in and total it up for you.

But the receipt was handwritten and you had to push down and you had to have good handwriting.

You had to have—

yeah.

And if you had, which I got in trouble sometimes because I was lazy.

What about document signing just in recent years? But you can electronically sign things now. You don't have to go to a closing table.

Have you ever had the experience, though, where you work with an attorney or even an accounting firm and they literally are still doing it? It's like, really? You don't have DocuSign? You want me to take this PDF, pull it down, go in and use text boxes to fill out my information?

You know what that is? You know what that is, though? That's not wanting to pay for the software.

Yeah.

Cheap.

And that's an unfortunate reflection.

Yeah.

And people are gonna start to see this because, number one, the generation that's coming up, the one that I'm raising, the one that's buying that.

Yes.

It is all instant, fast. It's gotta be on the, on the phone.

Has to be on your phone, right?

Has said that. Carrie has said this is the, this is the computer, guys.

This is, yeah.

The other piece, the laptops are becoming the desktops. Like, it's going to fast forward even faster. And so, yeah, I— it's unfortunately, I don't mean it in a negative way, but if you're in that space where you're contemplating, well, I'm just gonna save a few dollars. Really? Are you? You're not.

Yeah. Really.

If you have to mail something or, or even should you be emailing that document?

Right? Well, thank you very much, Banks. Yes.

Yes. Should you be emailing that? Because it could get the data and the information stolen. Yeah. So that's the other part of, of the whole— it's money well spent if you're protecting the data.

I remember now what I was going to bring up, Linda, that we've talked about so much. And I believe because we've seen— you brought up cyber— we've seen so much fraud, unfortunately, on operating an IOLTA. And I know Steve has. But don't you feel the days of writing checks— now mind you, we have to write some. Yeah, but for some practice areas.

Yes.

You know, but, um, Steve, for you, because you physically have been in a law firm too, in the financial sector like that, to, to today, what is your thought process on like, where do we think we're going to see ourselves like in this check writing piece, because so much fraud. I mean, the IRS released something about, about not sending out checks at one point because the fraud was so much.

Well, and we— a club that I belong to recently got hacked. Their bank account got hacked. And I'm, I'm convinced after what I've seen that it came through PayPal. And, you know, you have to be careful because who are you really? And To your point of modernizing and everything, but also be very careful who you're dealing with. Are you dealing with a little teeny tiny bank down on the beach or in the mountains? Or are you dealing with a bigger bank that has more oomph behind it? Or, you know, I just read this morning, was it LastPass just got hacked again?

Again? No.

Repeatedly, that one repeatedly gets—

Yeah, they get— they seem to be. So, you know, Password-protecting documents if you have to send them by email. You know, check writing. Yeah, that's, that's going by the wayside. Definitely.

That's the generation ahead of me that doesn't want to give up their handwriting checks. So people might actually in my age group, they in their 60s, they do not want to give up writing a check. And we've had these conversations like it's safer to write a check. Is it? I don't want my information on the internet. I don't want people to have my routing and my checking number. Well, what do you think you're handing them on that piece of paper?

But when you're emailing me, when you email me a copy of the check, can I just go berserko? I know.

Yeah, it's hard, but it's educating them, right? It's educating them. And I think that's kind of a good place for the book to kind of educate people that this is— I think sometimes they don't do it on purpose. They just don't think about it from the criminal's perspective of what can be stolen. And we've all had clients email us their bank account login and the password, or they'll get creative and email it and then text you the password. Like, that's going to make anything any better, you know? And it's just, you got to do it safely. And if you're sharing that stuff, it's just, it just gets to be really careful because the, the criminals are getting more and more savvy. And that's the part of it. I mean, even some of the websites and the things that come on email, it looks real. And the texting now. So there, now there's so much texting happening that they're copying those things. You have to be careful with that too. Like, whatever you say yes to or click to could send your phone, that whole thing off to another place.

We should have Chris back on from Licio, and I bet you we could link when we did that first one with him. We should link that back to this episode. But to what you just said, Linda, and I don't know if you've noticed this, Steve, but I've logged into like not the big one, but the medium-sized banks, like kind of the regional, I guess you'd call them. And Zelle is the top thing.

Oh my God.

Oh, I know. Yeah.

That was the one I, I'm not— I, it drives me bonkers with that one.

I've, I've—

Well, then you have personal Zelle and you have professional Zelle and you have—

Just like Venmo, you have personal and professional and, and PayPal owning Venmo and the, the security there with that and It's, it's as burdensome as it is. We have to change our passwords so frequently. So how do you do that? But securely sending things. And it's interesting, Linda, about— I want to go back and read that whole thing about between Microsoft and Google, because really, you think about it, you're still in the same— you have to find the medium that protects it, even like at a bank encrypted level, right?

So They will. Right. So those are the big ones, just like Chase Bank, Bank of America, the big players. They have the money to do that. Not that says that they can't ever get hacked, but it's less likely.

Yeah. Well, Bank of America, if you're listening to this or anybody, please don't ask me to email tax returns and stuff to you as you did a year ago and tell me that it's secure. I'm sorry. You have a portal. You have a banking site. Find a way to make it through there because I got a beef with that.

Yeah, you shouldn't be. You shouldn't be.

That is inappropriate to have a financial manager at your branch ask me to email you all my documents. And don't worry, it's secure. No, it isn't. I'm not stupid.

I mean, it's true. You see it. And I think that's going to be one thing, that common thread, no matter what going forward, is data security is going to be something that's always going to be front and center with all the technological changes that we're going to see.

And it's exciting.

Sometimes though, I can envision bank accounts being reconciled without us having to do anything, much of anything. Bank feeds sliding in without us having to have our hands on them too much. Will our job be eliminated? Because when the attorney goes and takes that trust account deposit and sticks it in the operating account, good luck. That's a hard one to— that's a hard one to put into the books. And we, we run into so much of that during our daily work that I don't see how our job will ever be wiped off with the work that we do. There's just too, too much into it.

I think it's less transactional to what you're saying, but we still— things are going to make mistakes, so we still have to make sure we're overseeing what's coming in. Is it in the right place? Does it have the right information? The, the stuff changes, but I really feel like the value, and I know we've all talked about this privately, is we're owners of our businesses, we're stewards of our businesses. I know that there's a lot of— you could Google the information, you could get it off TikTok, whatever it is, but is it right? Do you have— do you understand that it's accurate?

Mm-hmm.

Do you know firsthand if it's right? And We're the ones that are at the front line of a lot of this stuff, so we can answer that. And we're business owners ourselves.

So here's something. When you first are consulting with a potential law firm client and you want to know how modern their firm is, what, you know, what are they— what makes them tick? What's the loaded question here? What's the very first thing that you look for in that firm as far as what they're using for software? I mean, I'll tell you what's their billing software, or their billing software is where I'm going. And, and let's talk about that, Linda and Sarah. Let's talk about, you know, what we've— and we don't have to mention names if we don't want to, but, but what, what are we doing to, to recommend to these potential clients to modernize their firms and bring them up to the right software? Because typically they'll call their friend down the street and say, hey, what was that What are you using? And they're like, I'm using Hop, Skip, and Jump software, billing software. And you're like, I've never heard of that. You know that. And they think they're modernizing, but they're not. So let's talk about that a little bit.

It's so true. I mean, I know, I know my worst one is, what are you using? Um, I don't really use anything. So that's worse. Uh, or they'll say I'm using it, you know, anything that's desktop that's been around for a very long time that's old. You look at those and you're like, okay, and how are you— then you look at their accounting records. So now you've got this software here that they're using for their billing, and then they're re-entering not the invoices, they're just putting the income.

They're re-entering it into QuickBooks.

I mean, QuickBooks by a bank feed. Okay, it came into operating, and I know that was my transfer, so that's legal income. They're handling their AR here. There's no AR in QuickBooks. And you ask them, how do you know it's right? Well, I don't know. Just assume it's right.

Or do you tie it? You ask them, do you reconcile and tie the 2 systems to each other every month? I think so.

It's connected to the bank. Why do I have to do that?

Oh my gosh. It's connected to the bank where all my charges come through, so I don't need those receipts.

Oh, yeah. Oh, that one.

Okay. Try that. Try sitting.

Why do I need that?

Yeah.

See how well that sits within an audit, right?

Yeah.

That's the thing that you're trying to make sure that their ducks are in a row in case they do get audited, because you don't have to have somebody tattle on you to get audited. You can get audited randomly, and you want to make sure the records are correct. You want to follow the bar rules for the state, county, whatever it is, wherever you are located. whatever the level of rules are for you. If you're in Oregon, it's a lot different because you have to deal with not only the state but the counties. Um, it's just you got to follow the rules.

To your point that we're just one, right? That there's multiple states that are like this. Yeah, there's multiple states that are looking at ways of taxing because of the way people moved, and we're seeing payroll shifts. And yeah, so, um, that's a great question, Steve. I do feel If you're in the— it just depends on how a prospective client is coming to you and asking. Like, if it's data migration, if I, I know I've got this thing, I know it's not right, or I've never really had someone in that seat that knows the, the deep knowledge that you all know because you understand my profession.

And I love it. What she does— this is what we do when they say— we say, well, and what's up with billing software to use? Oh, I use Needles, or, you know, Whatever, whatever it's called. And Sarah will— Sarah and I both go, oh. And then Sarah will say, and how is that working out for you? Because that opens up the door, right? Opens up the door to answer, well, I got that because Mary Bell worked here 20 years ago and it's what she recommended, but nobody really likes the software. Now the door is open to get better.

So many things that you can talk about as As an owner to an owner, what is employee retention for you? Is it so problematic that people are upset, they can't follow how they're making money or being able to track their own compensation, or the details of reports that come out are lagging too far behind? Your clients are upset because you can't service them well, or it all— to what you kind of started with, Steve, is where is that? Where's that initial Conversation going to probably—

and that's going to tell you a lot about how modern the firm is right there.

Oh, for sure. And I mean, you can also talk about the fact that if you want to put them into a Clio or a LeanLaw, how's that client experience? So have you put them into Clio and now you've improved the client experience, the client of the law firm's experience with the law firm? So if that improves that relationship— relations, business is all about relationships— you a good relationship with your client, that leads into more leads for the law firm. So if— and if the staff isn't happy and doesn't know how to use this system, or you're spending a lot of time teaching people because it's such an old system that nobody really uses it anymore, is that a great place you want your firm to be? And if you're thinking down the road you might be selling your firm someday, do you want to have it on some kind of a system that nobody really uses? And you have to really, really, when you're looking at software, you have to look at where that software, how long it's been around, What's behind it, how you don't want to just pick some random fly-by-night one that may not be there next year.

You have to pick switching the serial switchers. I know, in the sense of you're not doing— it's not a value add anymore. Now you're, you're asking your staff to retrain, retrain. I mean, I've heard, we've heard these words, are you seriously asking me to switch? Like, I'm not asking you to switch, I'm just letting you know it's not working. Oh, I don't think so-and-so is going to stay here if I switch one more time. I'm like, Well, how many years ago was that?

Well, that's the thing. When I hear somebody say, well, I used Clio before and I didn't like it. And I'm like, when did you use Clio? Oh, 12 years ago. It's changed a little bit since then. It's like you have no clue how much different it is from 12 years ago. It's just like QuickBooks Online. When it first came out, it was not that good. And I didn't even— I put myself in it for my own firm in it because I was all excited about it not having to log in to log me in. And I remember going, oh my God, I can't put a client in this yet. It wasn't ready.

And, well, you know, when I— way back 10, 12 years ago at my law firm, uh, classes at the Bar Association, to your point with Clio, and it would come up and I would say, not yet, don't. I just, I don't feel comfortable recommending it yet. This is what I recommend for now. Now I sing their praises.

Yeah.

You know, and, and I like to take potential clients, like if it's a brand new firm, um, and we did this recently, I said, let's go look at LeanLaw and let's go look at Clio. And let's just show what both of them do. And you ask them, you know, how are you going to do your document management? What are you going to— you know, you ask all those probing questions and then you take them to those demos and you let them make the choice. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, you know what? I don't want to use what my friend down the street said to use or the firm I just came out of. You know, because it was comfortable. I don't want to use that now. You know, I mean, when you were writing the book, was there— Was there one underlying thing that continually resonated with you while you were writing the book that if you could make a change, In how firms modernize? Was there something that was resonating?

Oh, that's a deep question.

I think— It is. I think what was your motivation there, you know?

Well, my motivation was kind of— was really from some of the clients that we meet that they really think that their system was okay and they don't have a clue when they ask.

They don't know what they don't know.

They don't. And for Sarah and I especially, we start to— we start to take these people on a journey that we're holding their hand through it. And I think that on the other side of it, and we know what it's gonna look like on the other side, but the client doesn't. You try to—

They don't. Yeah.

And I, we try to be really delicate how we paint the picture because we don't want them to think that it's gonna solve every single thing.

Or that you don't want to offend them, you know.

Yeah.

Or replicate what they had. I don't want them to think it's gonna be an exact copy. I want them to have an an understanding of how long this— the process is gonna take. And once we got through— we get through that, the stories Sarah and I have of happy clients that are like, just— they just jump in and they're doing really well. And I think that's why we stick to those 2 softwares, because both of them work well with QuickBooks. They're both robust enough, and they are very easy for the client to learn how to use. And I think that— And they're both— I think I think that that's the main reasons that we don't— we very rarely have a client come back to us that says, I don't know how to use the system. They usually take right to it. We work with the accountant or bookkeeper on staff to get them into a place for that piece of it, which is different than the piece that the attorneys do. But I think that they, like you say, they don't know what they don't know. And when they see the data that comes out of the systems and the metrics that come out of the systems, And what we can show them. That's how we end up getting clients out of it. We, we end up moving them from A to B, and then all of a sudden they're like, oh my goodness, you know so much about this and you can provide this for me. I never had this before. I never even thought to ask for this. And then we're like, yeah.

And also, it— I mean, we're— we heavily have slated to QuickBooks, obviously, because we do a lot in there for these, um, certain size firms as well. Um, Xero is another ledger that's a stable ledger. That's very worthy of especially a firm that's starting out or a boutique firm or a firm that wants to remain a certain size and they, you know, need data in a certain way. That's fine. That's perfect. That's great. Because I mean, I've run some pretty heavy firms through, through Xero as well. And, um, and Xero is another one to take a look at. And just like QuickBooks Online was back in the day, it wasn't worth our time. Now, obviously it is, but I think, Linda, what you're getting at is every software is going to have growth potential because they have— some of them have to, to stay in business.

Yes.

Or we're going to see what we're seeing now is a monopoly of it, and the service that you were receiving on the software that you once had is different, and it may be one that a company bought because it's an equity firm and they're going to kill that off because they're putting their eggs in one basket and another one. So it's definitely a hard landscape to navigate, but we're looking at the pillars of the softwares that mean a lot to us, that we've done a lot of work with and we know can produce a good value as well.

And I never, 20 years ago, ever thought that someone would be coming to me to ask what software to put themselves in.

I know. Yeah. When did that happen?

I think we can fix everything. And it's amazing to me that they come to us because they see us as tech forward. And I love that. I think that's just the best thing. It's a big compliment because we really do, like, we get so excited about the shiny objects that are out there and what we can get to move forward. And we, the 3 of us, are just so much into that. Um, I think that that We've automated a lot of our processes. But also, when you think about it, Sarah, when we got involved in moving to a practice management software, that's— that was a big undertaking and it took us time to build out.

Yeah.

So we're in the same place as these clients, right? We, we knew it was going to take resources and it was going to take time to build out, but that time is so— that's such good time spent because it's going to help with everything. We're going to automate a system Where somebody leaves, somebody else can take over in that spot, and all the details on the work is there. Because as your firm grows— and we see this with law firms, they start out here and then they start to grow this way— you have to have a way to manage that because you don't want to have this kind of explosive growth. And then if you lose a great employee from whatever reason, somebody comes in, they don't have a clue what to do. You don't want to have that either.

And it's so expensive. Linda, to lose a great employee. It is— you do not wait. I mean, I mean no disrespect, but when we see some turnover and the quality of work has shifted because the historical knowledge isn't there, yeah, it's such a detriment to that firm. And I'm like, are you kidding? You could have just done this, or you could have heard the voice on this. That cost—

Well, the thing too with modernizing a firm and bringing them along is that you need to impress upon them that there is no plug-and-play, one-size-fits-all here. And, you know, back in the day, and I'm describing as maybe 8 to 9 years ago, I used to wince at the QuickBooks commercial that was on TV with that veterinarian that would drive down the lane. She was on her way to a client's house and she'd jump out of her truck and she'd take her phone and she would do her books. And so, you know, I had a few attorneys contact me over the years that remembered that commercial and said, well, why, why won't this just work for everything for me? You know, and it's like, well, and the best explanation I can give them is it's a very robust system. QuickBooks has come so far with their online product. It's a great product, but it has to appeal to every industry out there.

Yeah.

You know, and there's— it's not a plug-and-play, one-size-fits-all. So Mr. Firm Owner, you can't be afraid of getting rid of this billing software that you've used since 2005.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, you now are using it as a crutch. You're putting stuff in there and then you're putting it in QuickBooks again, but you haven't, you haven't married the two and you really can bring your firm forward. And, you know, I'm Mr. KPI and that's when I start tossing out the KPIs and I'm like, you know, You can really make a change here and you can be more profitable and have less turnover and happier employees if you use this software or you, you change this, this procedure. You know, how, how much do you really use that fax machine sitting in the copy room? You know.

I love it. So well said, Steve. Really. I mean, that's— it's so on point with like, it's the beauty of the software because it's, it is general, so it can attach itself to so many ecosystems.

Yeah, it's wonderful.

A lot of ledger systems, if they are not just all-in-ones, because it's hard to get data out, if you are something that can attach, that's such a wonderful thing. But again, it's, it's devilish. And Linda spoke to it in the book. There are some pluses and minuses, and you have to— to your point, Steve, I love that you said it. It's— that's great, actually. That's a good— I think it's a good thing.

So. I'm just proud of Linda for writing this book. I think this is awesome. And I was just sitting here going, you know what? Every new employee in a law firm should get that book on their first day. Here you go. Look at ways you can make this firm better while you work here.

It should be an easy read. I mean, I've read it 100 times proofreading. I was like, oh my God, they want me to proofread it again. I hope it's going to be— I'm excited to— I remember when Alicia Katz Pollock got her book and we were all together and she opened up the box and was like, physically holding it because it's a virtual book right now. It's just I've got these PDFs, right? But when she actually physically could hold the book in her hand, and I remember the excitement around that, being there with her was awesome. And I know she put her heart and soul in it, and hers was very, very software-based to QuickBooks. So, and if you ever want to read a really great book on, you know, they don't make the books anymore for QuickBooks, but if you want, if you're a book reader and want to learn, Alicia's book is Fabulous. But then, you know, they would change something. And I remember thinking the same thing as I was writing this, like, you know, ChatGPT came out right when I turned the book in and I was like, oh, and I had to go back and, you know, I said, can I add something in here? And I, it's just that, and things are gonna happen right from after the book is out there. But yeah, I hope it, I hope it does well. And I'm actually working on a second book. So, and it's gonna be for bookkeepers. So it's gonna be a little bit different. It's not towards the attorneys. Be towards bookkeepers learning what we do. So I just have to get working on that because it's due for the first draft next year, this Christmas. And as we know how fast the year goes, zing. So yeah.

Well, I loved it when you sent the book to both Sarah and I and said, proofread this. Be— you don't worry about being nice, just, you know, not so— I'm like, okay, there's a misspelling. Do I dare tell her about it?

Actually, I think Sierra beat all of you because she read it first. So, okay, okay.

This is exciting. It's very exciting, exciting times.

We'll have to get some. So all these conferences we go to, I'll have to get them and think of something really profound to write inside the book.

Instead of answering their questions, say, here, it's in the book.

That'll be awesome. Right here, I've diaried it for you. Everything you know is right here.

Well, this has been a great conversation today.

It has.

Yeah.

Tiara, do you want to wrap us up?

Take it away, darling. To support the Accountants Law Pod, please take a moment to drop us a like and share this episode with your colleagues and subscribe to this podcast on YouTube and wherever you find your favorite podcasts. If you have questions, topic requests, or guest suggestions, you can email us at info@accountantslawpod.com Or send us a message through our website, accountantslawpod.com. To join us in the Accountants Law Lab, which meets every Friday, visit our website at accountantslollab.com to sign up. And don't forget to order Modernize Your Law Firm by Linda Artesani on Amazon today. Thank you.

Well, everybody, everyone, thank you. Bye-bye.