Payment Processing with Emery Wager from Confido Legal

Welcome to Accountants Law Pod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge. Hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Stephen Libhart.

Welcome back, everyone. It is a kind of end of summer kind of moment here for us. I'd say Steve and Linda. I know.

I'm the opposite.

Yay!

I have two kids, so I'm very excited.

You're you're yay.

And that voice you're hearing is our special guest. We're doing like a Day with Emery, which we're going to talk about payment processing. Confido Legal is one of our very favorite products that the 3 of us here use. Um, but yeah, end of summer and, and here we are. We're recording year 3 for us where we've just turned 3 as a podcast and keeping going. Congratulations.

Thank you.

Excited. It's been a good, a good round. Coming around that corner for third year, we're like, okay, we got this, but we still are on our toes. So, well, Emory, tell us a little about you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, before founding ConFido, spent a decade in financial services and payments. And as one of my side roles at the company I worked for, I managed all of our outside counsel relationships. So the company didn't have a general counsel. I'm not a lawyer, by the way.

Oh.

But that fell on my desk. And so I worked with, you know, about a dozen law firms just in the normal course of business for several years and really felt like there was a lot that could be improved about the financial interaction between client and law firm. So dug in, learned about the rules of professional conduct and what an IOLTA account is and How that's different than a trust account and why you need one in, you know, a different bank account and in each state that you're in for the most part. And really realize that the payment systems out there were not great for law firms given their unique kind of multi-bank account setups.

Mm-hmm.

And also the unique rules that govern, you know, how money needs to be accepted, tracked, transferred, and dispersed in legal. So we set out to to really to solve that problem and build a payment system that could be used specifically for, for law firms, but also for legal technology companies that wanted to integrate payments directly into their applications and make it really easy for them to do that without worrying about, you know, all the compliance aspects or having to, you know, having to build kind of a multi-bank account setup. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of the origin. That's where we started really coming at this from the client perspective and wanting to kind of improve that client experience. And then so we built the business really facilitating that kind of inbound payments, payments flow where, you know, practice areas where clients pay law firms directly. But super exciting, we've now gotten into more of the plaintiff space, personal injury firms, firms operating on contingency where we're facilitating now that outbound disbursement to clients and other lienholders on the case.

Nice.

And so that's super exciting, you know, because that's all being done right now on paper checks. And, you know, that next generation of plaintiffs who grew up on Venmo and Cash App, you know, they just don't— definitely don't want to get a check and haven't gotten one in years. And It definitely speaks, you know, speaks volumes about the firm, how, how that interaction goes.

I think what speaks volumes about the firm in general with you all is you said it best. You were client-focused and your customer service and any interaction, any of our clients that interact with Emory, which we always hear Emory's the best. It's always like your superstar, which is awesome, and we agree, but it's The interaction that you all have and the way you facilitate problem solving is so uniquely different as a merchant provider and a support for this really key piece of money transacting the way it does. So I would say Linda and I can easily say a huge thank you to you and your team and just in general, the way you guys innovate and create. We're grateful to have a partner support like you all. So—

And I want to jump in on that too, because I was going to say, And I'm not saying this because you're sitting here, Emery, but out of all the vendors that we work with and you accountants and bookkeepers out there that are watching and listening to this, the best customer service in the world right here. I mean, if we have a challenge, I know it's going to be answered and I don't have to spend hours trying to figure it out. You guys are the best.

Yeah.

And that's what sold me on your company initially.

Yeah.

No, I really appreciate it. You know, I think We've, we, you know, we, we do think of ourselves as a technology company. We invest a lot in that. You know, we launched a kind of an AI chat support functionality, but we also hired more team members. So it's, it's easier to get kind of that AI, you know, those quick questions answered, but also easier to get a hold of someone who's really empowered. I think that's, that's a big thing for us. Like one of our core principles as a company is everyone's an owner. So they're, expected to be able to make decisions, to spend money to solve problems, and to really think kind of strategically with the whole business as sort of context behind them as they're answering, you know, frontline support questions. So yeah, yeah, really, really appreciate that feedback. I'll definitely pass it along.

I want to share one specific story. I called in one day and it was a challenge with a certain software, and the, the person that works on your team said, I work at that certain software. I know exactly what you're experiencing. And boom, he had me fixed in a short amount of time. And I was like, wow.

Did that software start with a Q?

No.

Did it start with a C?

Keep guessing. It started with a—

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think besides the fact that your software is in your whole work flow, especially as an accountant, is like we get a beautiful view. We have so much ability to see what's happening and where transactions have landed and what's processed, what's maybe been returned, all of that that goes along with it. It's also the fact that you have all these ways of getting paid. So a lot of our immigration firms, they look for that payment over time kind of a piece that you don't have that kind of flexibility with a lot of the other products. And this is Good point. The easiest selling feature for us to, to, to sell Confido. And then once they get onboarded with your team or with you, and the process is so seamless, and they've already had a probably sticky, not so great integration with like, I'm just gonna say Clio because that's the most common we run into. They had, and they're not happy with the way they come through. And we offer this because they don't have that ability to do it in the other software so that we're offering a higher level. more finessed workflow that works exactly what they're looking for. And, and you've even custom built some for our clients, which is great. Some of our bigger clients, they need something even more specialized. And everybody's impressed with you though. That's the big thing that every time we work with— I think a lot of people have it, there's a low bar or a low threshold with software companies, and you guys like exceed way over what everybody else has had for experience.

Now please share this with your team, please.

Yeah, I will, I will definitely share it. No, that's, that's, that's great to hear. And, you know, they're, they're working hard. And, and so it's, it's nice to get that feedback. So thank you very much.

So can you, can you do us a favor and sort of walk us through now that we've sort of praised and— All of us, right?

No, we're about to go down now.

And now the real part.

Because you said it in your intro, which is true, and it's interesting, is, is understanding— I think the biggest thing is understanding what's permitted. Each state, local jurisdiction has different things allowed. Meaning what goes into an IOLTA. If, you know, like you custom build payment links for people's websites, you've done some really cool things. And then also revenue versus IOLTA, how things move, how things get tagged, recurring payments, all of this way of what tends to be friction because we see it. People accept Venmo, Zelle, which—

Oh my God.

Which we don't want happening on a trust account. We want an experienced trust account merchant like yourself helping us walk through that and then how, how they build what this process is on the Confido side. What does it look like? What's this process look like for you all to help tackle these? What seems simple, it becomes very tricky.

Yeah, no, I mean, there's, there's, there's definitely a lot there and we kind of, we follow sort of the lowest common denominator principle. So, and we look at all states and, and kind of what the regulations are and make sure that, you know, for the, for the states that are, are most strict or have the most rules that we're supporting, making it really easy for a firm in that state to comply with the ethics rules in that state. So, so yeah, the platform is kind of built for that, that lowest common denominator there.

What's the worst state?

It really— let's see.

Don't say Florida.

That did come to mind, but, you know, I don't know.

California.

New York is a— has definitely has some, some friction and requirements there, especially around, um, kind of surcharging, you know, passing the credit card fees along to the client. They do allow it, but there are some, some unique rules there.

It's a lot of gray space. I feel like—

Doesn't it default back to the federal too?

Like, I think— Depends though.

Depends. Yeah, it depends. I think with Florida it was like kind of murky, and then it's like, well, just default. Because I've had the conversation with a lot of attorneys.

Well, it's— each state has that uniqueness. Oregon's one of them, uh, too. There's some unique things on your interpretation of it, but it's not very clear.

Exactly. And how do you— that just brings me into the next question. How do you track all that and stay on top of it?

Yeah, I mean, we have news monitoring and we're tracking kind of the key cases in some states that are happening. We do typically like a review of the 1.15 rule in all the states to make sure there's not any new ethics rules and opinions that we're not aware of. And so, yeah, we think a lot about it. You know, what's been really interesting is getting into the disbursements piece because there's, there's really a lack of ethics rules and opinions around paying out from your, you know, IOLTA account. And so we actually just did a, did a great interview with ethics attorney Jane Reardon, who's helped us do some work. She's fantastic. And she, she kind of went through, you know, in absence of very clear rules, you know, what's, what's allowed, what's not allowed. And she helped us build the, you know, the disbursements, disbursements product. And I think that the headline is, yes, you can disburse money digitally. I mean, this is 2025.

Yeah.

But, you know, there are certain things that you have to keep in mind and certain recordkeeping.

Probably a permission or acceptance, I'm presuming too, for some, like if they If that's the way that you want to pay out, that the client is— everyone's okay with that?

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

As long as you're clear about it, like the client can, you know, that they have choice, then, um, yeah, the, the, the client has a lot of, uh, clout in that, you know, in that relationship.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's funny how we get these clients still to this day that are either— they do everything by check. They write a check out of the IOLTA to put it into the operating account. They check, check, check, check, check. And then they're not accepting credit card payments. And the reason typically is, oh, I don't want to pay all those fees. And then when you have the discussion with them, then we tell them, like, with Confido, you can actually bill it back to the client. But we tell them we really don't recommend that because you're already on the hook for like a million line items and no way better to piss off a client than to add that to it.

And especially in the legal environment.

Yeah. And they're always like, you know, well, I just don't want to pay the fees and just, just add it to your hourly rate a little bit to cover it because it really looks Like you're really nickel and diming your client, and that doesn't give for a good client-attorney relationship. And so some of them still do it, but we're happy to at least get them on board because when they're in that space of receiving a check and applying the check, it's not only slow and clunky and open to errors, but also the fact that it's, it's just, it slows the whole process down. When you talk about friction, there it is.

Oh yeah.

And you're looking at You're looking at slowing the process down. You're going to get paid faster because people read an email, and if there's a link to pay, you're paid like in seconds. Like, why wouldn't you want to at least offer that ability to do that?

We work with a big law firm in one aspect of our, of our business, and I got an invoice from them this morning with no way to pay. You know, I do— I have 10 seconds to read this email and deal with it, and you know, now it's Now it's like long gone in my inbox.

Yeah.

And I get— or set up recurring. That's something I have to say, the ease of use.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I will say something that I appreciate, and maybe you could speak to this. Every merchant provider in the beginning when you're establishing, you have a different processing time is what we've learned because you're new to them. They're underwriting. There's a whole thing behind getting set up, right? Okay. And then it changes as you evolve, I imagine, right, Emery? Or how does that work for you all?

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, a lot of times law firms are coming on board and they're, they're saying, you know, why, why are we sort of like, I feel like I'm, you know, getting underwritten here. It's like, well, yes, you, you are. I mean, there's, we're moving money for you. So there's, you know, certain requirements that we have to meet. We have to verify your identity and that your business is in good standing. Shocking number of law firms have expired. business licenses and registrations. But, but, but yeah, there's, there's, there's, you know, we are taking financial risk.

Yeah.

Because, you know, if you, in an extreme case, if you took a bunch of money into the trust account and then skipped town and took it out and spent it, you know, we're, we're on the hook for that. So we want to make sure that we're not underwriting any fraudulent firms and we're not, you know, underwriting firms that don't have the money in the bank to cover, you know, charges And, you know, there's, there's so much check fraud out there too.

I can only imagine that your service totally, or very, you know, increases the success rate of not falling into that bucket with people, you know.

Yeah, I actually just checked this a couple days ago, but it's the check fraud— the, the rate of check fraud is, is almost, uh, 25 basis points on the overall volume right now. So it's an incredibly And that was, that was pretty conservative, actually. It could be a little bit more. But yeah, that's—

And so many attorneys fall prey to it.

They do.

Yeah.

Well, it goes beyond too. I think I brought this story up once. There was a— I was listening to a webinar here in Oregon several years ago, and there was a massive check fraud coming out of Canada with money orders. And post, um, uh, what do you call it? USPS, the— when you do the money cashier's check style.

Oh, interesting.

I forgot the name. It's escaping me now. But anyways, it was— it— and to your point, Emery, it was like, well, okay, I'm gonna contract you. I'm gonna send you this money. They send you this lump sum of money and then they want you to pay them back, or you're a shell without even knowing it as a firm because it's moving so fast. And that's, I think, the problem. I feel like with people, they have this expectation of, well, money's got to move fast because Because we have the Zelles and the Venmos and the PayPals of the world. But behind that is all of our personal information if we're doing it even personally, right? Like, so as a business, it should be a little bit more strict, I would think. But yeah. Yeah.

No, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's super, super interesting. And, you know, we, we think a lot about, you know, balancing risk and friction because oftentimes You know, if we're, you know, reducing our risk, that results in more friction for the firm or for the client. And so, you know, really, A, trying to find ways where that's not the case and we can kind of get a win-win. But, but also, like, where is that, you know, where's that trade-off is something that we think about a ton. We get hit by fraud all the time. You know, an old law firm that left their website up that's long, you know, out of business. You know, someone will kind of pick that up and, and apply for, you know, a payment processing account with—

Wow.

Sort of defunct law firm as their, you know, as their front.

Yeah, that's scary. I mean, Linda and I, I mean, we see this when you're applying for things. They'll ask if you actually have a website, even if it's not even a merchant thing, right? Well, there's a reason. And if you don't have one, they ask you to describe why. You don't have one.

And also, Sarah, we've had it happen where, because now QuickBooks comes preloaded with their merchant account, it's like just sitting there waiting, right? I don't know how they get away with it, but it's like semi-on and it looks like you've already done what you need to do. Like you don't have to do a lot because they've already aggregated all the data.

Yeah.

People try to pull that and I've seen it where somebody will push those funds into trust and then they catch up with you eventually and then they lock your money in. So whatever is in transit when they realize that that's a trust bank and it should never be touching trust, It gets frozen, it gets stuck, and it just should never be connected into it. Merchants should never be connected to the trust account. But I've seen—we've seen attorneys do it, and it's like, what were you thinking? Because it was just easy, and they probably don't know. They see it and they say, "Oh, I'll just connect it here." And oh, we've also had with that other company that has a very weird name now, but was LawPay. We saw a client actually connected to her. Operating. So everything went into her operating, and then she was transferring it over. Oh boy. And it was the messiest thing. I'm like, why didn't you just connect it directly? But she didn't. Yeah, it was crazy. That was a crazy one. We've seen— we always say we've seen it all, but Sarah, have we?

I do have a question for you, Emery, because you guys do this really well. Um, the recurring subscription, I guess, whatever you'd like to call it— have you seen an increase of requests, or how did make it easier, utilize that within for you as a merchant provider with more firms? Are they asking for this style?

Yeah, we've had a lot more requests for that. A lot more, yeah, recurring kind of automated payment plans. But also one thing that's, that we've been supporting, which is interesting, is more automation around kind of the evergreen retainer billing model. Even to the point where firms will have in their engagement agreement that they're gonna, the client's gonna keep a card on file and it will just, they'll auto-replenish the retainer on a weekly basis or biweekly basis. So, I mean, it's an incredible billing model. It's super seamless for the client.

Yeah.

It's, we're not seeing like elevated chargeback levels or anything like that. I mean, the client has a chance to review the bill and, you know, dispute it before the charge goes through. Yeah, but really nice, especially for, you know, these high-volume family law firms.

Oh yeah. Oh, I can imagine.

Powerful to just kind of hit the auto button.

Yeah.

So do you have different rules set up in Confido for different types of law? As an example, if I'm a personal injury firm and a settlement comes in via Confido, how long do you guys hang on to that before the funds are released? Is there a difference between different types of law firms?

It's the same across the board. Generally, the platform works the same across the board, regardless of practice area. I will say that there are definitely differences in the type of features that are used or how the platform is used based on practice area.

Mm-hmm.

You know, like Sarah said, a lot of the immigration firms, especially, you know, consumer immigration firms, are very heavy kind of payment plans. The plaintiff firms on contingency are heavy users of the disbursements feature. So it's, it's really different areas of law use the platform very, very differently.

One of the challenges with personal injury is they, you know, they've— the case has been out there for so long, and, you know, when it finally settles, everybody wants to disburse the money before the check's even cleared the bank. And some, they get into trouble quite often because all of the bills aren't in, all the, all the things from Medicaid and all those sorts of things aren't in yet, and then they're overdrawn on, on the, you know, on their ledger for that account. And, and it's, it's a little bit different. But yeah.

Yeah. And you have the, the client out there, right? You read the reviews of these personal injury firms. Almost all of the reviews are, where's my money?

Where's my money?

Yeah. So every day that goes by is one more day where that person can complain about that. And, and some of it is, you know, out of our hands. Like you said, you know, you're waiting for the data to come in. But, you know, our argument is, hey, you can pay them instantly through the platform. That shaves off, you know, a week or two of the check moving through its process. That's less chance for those negative reviews.

It's kind of brilliant too, though, because if you think about it, and Linda and I've seen where when you're— if you're wanting to do the ACH electronic payment, a lot of times if you're on your business banking platforms, you have to do a massive upgrade. There's a lot more signing, there's a lot more protocols that go on with it. Then you have this whole other, like, maybe you're on a platform, I'll just use like a regular banking platform, but now you got to go into this other portal.

Yeah.

And it becomes this very, uh, kind of— I feel like it's a door and a door and a door. Where it's brilliant what you guys have done is you've just taken the simplicity of it and you've streamlined it. I'm sure there's rules and protocols that can be— so anybody that's going to be sending out the money has to go through some sort of approval process, the security of that trust account.

Yeah.

There's a whole system that I'm presuming you've built into this because you guys are very forward-thinking. I know that we've looked at it in beta, kind of in discussion with you. The thing that I know that we've run into, and I'm just curious if you've seen this on the increase too, Is we hear a lot of this, like the evergreen retainer style thing that you're mentioning, but we're also presenting you an invoice. Is there a way to split this style of link payment platform or what, however that works? Because it's pretty complicated. It's like, here's my AR invoice that needs to go into this side of the banking, the operating, and here's your trust. How do you help clients separate that? Or how does that look?

Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things that I was frustrated at as a client. It was like, I don't, I don't know why, like, why are you giving me 2 things?

Yeah. Why are you doing that?

Yeah. Like, I don't care what an account is as a client. Like, I don't care about your ethics rules really.

You guys go figure it out.

Yeah. And so, I mean, one of the things we, we built, which has now been integrated into a lot of the, the legal technology companies that that are using our infrastructure is, you know, the ability to run a split payment. So if, you know, if a client on an evergreen retainer does sort of, you know, that case sort of outruns the retainer, Mm-hmm. They can send them both a bill and a trust request, you know, a replenishment request in one email. And yeah, you can have some details about what that is. But for the client, there's just a big colorful button that says pay. Yeah. You know, and they just hit that and do it. And yeah, you know, then the money goes into the 2 different accounts on the back end.

That's nice that you guys make it so— again, that's like the Steve and Linda, that's what we talk about, like our experience as a consumer. What does it look like? Um, the thing I'm wondering, this is my brain just thinking as you're talking, our phones have become texting options, wallet pay. What does that look like for you all? How does it work if it is in place? What does it look like now?

Yeah, so today we actually don't, we made the decision not to support Apple Pay because it does make the surcharging and the split payments into multiple accounts Much more challenging, actually.

Sure. Okay.

And so we don't support that today. We may in the future, depending on how that— those sort of payment methods evolve over time. But, you know, the pages are all mobile optimized. So most people have their card, you know, stored in their browser and they can, you know, it accepts those fields. So you can just kind of autofill and pay.

Okay.

Okay, that's cool. Yeah. So then it still is secure. Also, you guys are— I mean, we've seen it when we were just talking pre-show about pricing. Linda and I know what ACH pricing looks like in other platforms.

Yeah. I mean, we spend a lot of money on merchant services.

We do. Yeah.

It's just easier. We want to be paid. We don't also— on the flip side of that, we don't have a problem with collecting.

Right.

We just don't. It's not a factor because we get paid before we do our work and we get it done. As soon as someone signs a contract, they have to pay us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I mean, that's, that's what we want our clients to do too, because we want to help them free up their cash flow. That is a big piece of it. And like you're saying, the evergreen sounds fantastic. And I think for some practice areas, that's going to really work well. But also, I think with, with other practice areas, family law, I never really even seen that where they use evergreen. But I think that's a phenomenal idea because Then they're not dealing because there's so many little tiny invoices monthly that go through. And the fact that for the client, they're going to be in their head, I got to pay, you know, $5,000 a month or whatever, or $2,000 a month. They can budget for it.

It's a great sales tool.

Yeah, it just waits to the end. And I can remember my daughter even going through divorce and it was like, she got the big bill at the end and the phone call that said, you don't pay, I'm not showing up. And I thought, wow, what a terrible way for customer service. Because she had gone through all this to this point and all the paperwork and all the back and forth. And then to have that happen, I was like, that is not a great way to do business. It's definitely what we don't want our clients doing.

Yeah. Seeing it, seeing a lot of the top firms, you know, billing on a now a weekly basis too, to keep the bills small. Yeah. Manageable. Yeah. And, and it's like, okay, we're billing for like the work that was done this week only. So you, you, it's top of mind as the client. Just a way better experience.

Great for cash flow for the law firm too. Yes. You know, because they got to pay their staff. So, yeah.

But you all have 1% same-day bank transfers capped at $30. I'm sorry, that's like amazing.

Can we use— can we use— can we use Quipido for our firm?

Yeah, we can.

Yeah, we do our monthly billing on it. It's really like, I, you know, as, as the person who manages our finances, you know, seeing the money come in right after you do the billing is, uh, it's quite nice.

Yeah. Yes. Awesome. Yeah. No, I, I think that's a, a very nice feature. And then you also have, you have your standard, everyone's at 2.95. I feel like that's just the standard. Um, but no monthly annual termination, which is what happens. I feel like Steve, you've seen this quite a bit. You're locked in. You sign up and you're locked in. And a lot of times people are still even leasing the little devices sometimes.

That is criminal.

Those were the days.

It makes me so sad when I see it. I will say, could you get into the spa industry? Because that's a huge problem.

Yes. Yeah. That's where you remember I used to own a day spa, and I remember leasing my stupid little machine. I hated that.

Oh, man. I mean, I will say the one thing that has gotten a little bit better is the industry has gotten more transparent, I think. Yeah. Really bad early on. Oh, it was hidden fees and things like that. There's still a fair bit of that, but not to the extent—

Like what's called a discount. I'm like, is that a discount or a charge? Help me follow this.

They hide it. Yeah. This doesn't feel like a discount.

Doesn't feel like a discount. We're using it the wrong way. So what's on the horizon for you all? Like, what are you all seeing as changes in platform changes, if any? Like, what do you see coming down the pipe?

Yeah, we're actually in kind of the— doing a big infrastructure overhaul kind of beneath the surface. So it's going to allow us to launch some new features, faster onboarding. The surcharges for firms that are using it will no longer get deposited. So it'll just kind of look like a free transaction as opposed to having to, you know, account for that money in the operating account. We are adding some more disbursement methods. So a, a digital prepaid card. So a, you know, someone who's getting paid and maybe doesn't have a bank account can issue themselves a digital prepaid card as a, as a sort of a payout method. Wow.

That's actually really cool considering there's a lot of people that don't. They just cash those checks. Yes. Wow. That's pretty brilliant, actually.

Yeah. No, we've heard from a lot of executives at the personal, like, high-volume personal injury where they get a lot of phone calls from check, you know, check cashing companies saying, hey, your client showed up here. And You know, like, please don't give, you know, 30% of that away to Western Union or whatever.

Yeah. Whatever it's called now. There's like a name for it. Yeah.

Yeah. So another exciting thing we just, we're in kind of the beta phase of a brand new, brand new version of our Zapier integration. So we launched about a dozen new actions and a couple new triggers as well. So do cool new things like payment plan with a down payment and then subsequent, you know, a different down payment amount and a subsequent, you know, ongoing automated payment plan from there, more control over, you know, if you're integrating it with QuickBooks or Xero, there's ways to do that as well. So, you know, we think a lot about how can payments be integrated into the key workflows.

Yeah.

The firm is already using. And so that's been a good, good tool. And a lot of firms have been using the Zapier integration. So we decided to, to do overhaul and an upgrade to that. Oh, that's awesome.

The, um, there was something that came to mind just now and it just left again, and I've thought about this every single time. Oh, you— oh, I know what it is. You brought this up earlier, and I know that we've— the 3 of us have experienced this together and independently, the what you call the chargeback or the refund or the challenge, like when people are challenging the charge. Um, you've actually Helped our team with our firm figure out the proper way of the correct, that, that contractual note that needs to happen outside of the— so you got your engagement letter and then this contractual note, especially if you're in a recurring, what should be on it, whose name, who's a third-party payer.

Yes. A lot of people don't think about this.

This is the extra support that you have for us directly have provided us, but I know clients can experience with your merchant. side of things that are not ever thought about. I mean, and when you're in a chargeback, especially a lot of money, the stakes are high.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's, you know, going back to that, it's, you know, it's kind of like a loan, you know, it's that, that in essence is sort of what it is. If you think of, you know, the days of old where you would go to the corner store and they You know, they would, they would float you the money until, you know, until you came to pay. Now it's your bank that is, is doing that. So it is, in essence, you know, it's a loan and there's, there's risk associated with it. And managing that is super important. And, you know, we have a ton of information online. I can give you some for the show notes, but—

Great.

Information on how to, how to set yourself up whether you're using us or not. But if you're a law firm, how to set yourself up to win those disputes when they come in.

Oh, nice.

That's really nice. Yeah.

What kind of security can people expect when, you know, what can we pass on to people when we're recommending Confido? What kind of security is there for the transactions? Yesterday, a big article, PayPal was breached again. You know?

Yeah. I mean, we So we, we think a lot about kind of, one is third, third-party certifications. So PCI, we go through a PCI, special PCI audit for, for technology companies. So that's, that's a big one. We've gone through several SOC 2 audits.

Mhmm.

We have a, we're part of a private bug bounty program. So this is a What is that? Yeah, bug bounty program. So security researchers are independent security researchers are encouraged to, you know, hack in, hack into the— and then if they find something, then they get paid, you know, they get a bounty.

Oh, wow. Love that.

I like that.

Yeah. It's managed through a third party called Bugcrowd. So if you're a hacker that's listening, try to, try to break in and bring it on, right? Yeah.

And then that's a new audience for us. Yeah.

We'll see if there's any—

anyone spying on us.

And then, you know, as part of PCI and SOC audits, there's penetration, you know, actual formal kind of penetration testing that happens as well. So—

Holy cow.

Uh, so yeah, I mean, I, I, I would be lying if I said it doesn't keep me up at night. Um, but those are kind of, you know, just some of the sort of—

yeah, there is so much fraud out there in place.

Yeah, the breaching, I think, like we say fraud, but I mean, also like the, like the breaching issues that go on, it's just, uh, it makes your stomach turn. Um, I, I read something too about what it feels like when you go to file your tax return and somebody else has filed before you because they've— you know what I mean? Like, which is why—

That happens.

Yeah. And it's why I think— I mean, I remember when, as a bank teller way back in the day, you put the money in the bank, it was a 2-week that you had to basically— like, you could have— oops, the money go in. The money went in. But it was It had to be guaranteed for 2 weeks because if that check came back and any bank fees occurred for that, that was not— you're still going to pay those fees. Those were not waived fees. Yeah. And I feel like it's still the same. We've had USPS postal checks come back 6 months, 3 months later, be returned in a bank.

Wow.

And those are typically the safe ones. Those were known as— they're Those were not safe. So, oh man, because they can be replicated from what I understood. That's why it was a rubber one and it came back and it bounced.

Yeah. So yeah, it's super scary. I mean, the people that, like I was saying, you know, we get hit by fraudulent, you know, quote unquote law firms. Yeah. You know, they've got some, some lawyers, they've got their Social Security number, they've opened a bank account in their name. By the time they get to us, you know, they have all of their personal information.

Yeah.

And, you know, usually we catch them through like an ID verification or, you know, something else, but, but they've already submitted like accurate data to get that.

Yeah.

Like, anything you can do about that when somebody's being fraudulent? Can you toss them to the police somehow? Probably not, huh?

We do. We do. Yeah. The, the banks that we work with to move the money, we have a process where we have to report that.

Oh, good. Because they should. Good.

I don't know. I mean, I don't think a lot happens after that, but, uh, yeah.

I've seen it where, uh, an ex-employee will take their paycheck and grab the— you know, that's the problem with checks. Everything's on there. And every time we have a conversation, well, I'd rather use a check. Why isn't a check safe? Well, it's not safe. Your bank account's there, and that's the issue. Yeah, we had an issue with a, um, a client that actually has a— had money in the trust, has to either return it, or I'm not quite sure exactly what was happening. And the— and their person was leaving the United States and going to another country, and he wanted to know how he would get that money out.

Yep.

To the client, because it's another country. So you're dealing with the transaction change, right? You got to do, um, maybe the— I don't know what happens with that whole thing. And he checked with the bar, and the bar said You know, you can't do it that way. And it can't come out of IOLTA. It has to come out of IOLTA. We kind of said maybe you should move it to operating, not to expose the trust account to anybody. Like if he was going to wire it, right? And it was weird. He went to the bar and checked to see what they said. And they said, no, you have to send it directly out of trust. So, and I don't know the whole backstory about why that money was being—

Yeah.

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

But it's, yeah, it's crazy. I mean, some of these high-volume personal injury firms, kind of the worst, they move big money. 2,000 checks, like, yeah, sending out every, you know, oh yeah, every, every month. And it's got your account number and routing number. Someone could easily go make a payment, you know, with that information. And you're trusting, you know, 2,000 people that, sure, they're clients, but who knows why anyone else is getting access to that.

In all honesty too, the, the, the, the Postal Service is not as reliable as it used to be. No, it just isn't. And, and checks get lost out there, or they get re— you know, they travel to all these places and come back to you. You know, it's just crazy.

Like Sarah's birthday card.

I don't know where it went. It went into a black hole for like 6 months, and then it came back to me. I was like, back to her.

But you know, bill payments through, through your bank— I mean, newsflash, that's a check, friends.

It's a check. Yeah. And we, and we've got a, you know, we've got clients that will actually— immigration firms especially, they want the money wired in, but they wire it into a wiring only, so They're sending the ask out on a specific bank account, but it's not a trust bank account, but then it moves into trust. It's swept in. So it's a sweep account that gets swept in.

It's a sweep account.

But they do that to protect the trust where everybody's money's sitting.

One thing I was thinking about, and I know in between our conversations, Emery, just in email, we've talked about these so-called links, expiring links and so forth, the protection of that. It begins to make me think too, Like, is that something that— I mean, you set it and forget it with your website. A lot of people do that. I'm wondering if those are things that in the future yourselves, providers like yourselves, are going to have to do some sort of update or recurring or reinitializing of those links so that people— Like to expire it? Yeah, expire it so you're not in that fraudulent—

So it's not out in the network.

Yeah, like maybe it's like, I don't know, some sort of sign-off or— because it's true right now, just based on the nature of where we are in our climate, A lot of people that are in need of attorney and they've gotten an agreement, say, from an immigration firm, a lot of times they're signing at the last second because like a court date or something gets notified. And so rather than even signing the agreement, they just pay the funds and then that puts that firm on the hook. And so that's where our— Emery and I were having dialogue of like, what does that exposure look like? So yeah, yeah.

No, definitely. I mean, it's, it's something that, uh, that we absolutely want to do. We, we did that with the, the outbound link. So the— yeah. where the client can receive their money, A, they have to authenticate to get access to it. Yeah. But B, you know, once they're in, that, that link does expire and you can adjust that expiration date as a, as a firm. So, okay.

So it's on you as a firm.

You're going to be adding that to the payments acceptance.

Yeah. Thanks as well. That makes sense. I mean, we live in such a high crime, online high crime Right now. Like, yeah, it's increasing more and more.

Just when you think you've seen it all, here comes something else, you know.

Totally.

Yeah, sure it is. Uh, it, it's, uh, it's scarier for sure.

So you, as the business owner of this amazing product, what do you see, um, as like your vision for your— with your firm and your, your, you know, partners and so forth? What do you see as what the future might be with AI and stuff like that. Do you guys have like some thoughts around it, what you guys are all thinking or talking about?

Yeah. So for us, AI tends to be more kind of beneath the surface. We use it in identifying, you know, fraudulent firms, monitoring transactions. I mean, the great thing about our business is we're not a generic payment processor, so we don't have to look at—

Oh, good point. Yeah.

This is a coffee shop, you know, and this is a law firm and I have to decide, you know, What's fraud? Yeah. You know, law firms tend to have a very consistent transaction profile, and the data is not muddied up by, you know, coffee shops, you know, just an extreme—

Yeah.

Different example. And so a lot of what we're doing in that area is, is kind of beneath the surface to, again, to try to make the experience for both the client and the law firm more frictionless while keeping everyone safe kind of in that financial interaction. So, well, that's, that's kind of where our main focus is in, in that area. But beyond that, you know, the, the long-term vision really is to, to, to allow attorneys to use Confido to move money throughout the entire lifecycle of a case. And so, you know, I, I listened to your episode on kind of the 3-way reconciliation and some of the gymnastics that you have to go through.

Good word.

Certain banks.

And another blog title.

So, you know, the, the goal is to kind of completely eliminate that regardless of what bank you're using, but to be able to use Confido to track everything in a compliant way and not worry about Does my, you know, bank have online access for my IRLTA account? And that kind of thing.

So true.

You know, it sounds like you, you know, from when, when we opened up this morning, our conversation on this podcast, you talked about how everything just landed on your desk and that's how you fell into this in the beginning. It sounds like you were in the right place at the right time and this was supposed to be your destiny to make this happen. I'm serious. Because you've done such a good job with it. I mean, oh my gosh. So kudos to you.

And think of it, you were like the little kid.

I've definitely fallen in love with the industry. And of course, lawyers have their challenges, but I love the way that they think, and they're a really fun group of folks to serve.

Yeah, I think that's a great way to end. I mean, it's so funny because you guys, when we first met, it was a while ago, and LawPay was the one, the One choice, right? And you guys have really put your mark down on the— in the world for this. And people have heard about you already, which is great. Like, I don't have to explain what it is and everything because it's a known thing, which is great. That they— it's always good for competition no matter what. And yeah, I think you kind of blew the doors— I think you blew the doors off their competition. I really do. I think you took, you know, a similar product and you just added the features that people need. And that makes a big difference. Awesome.

Well, yeah, I really, really appreciate that. And, uh, yeah, it was great to, uh, to chat again. I, I, uh, big fan of the Law Lab as well.

So yeah, we're gonna have you there.

We'll see you on the other side there.

Yeah, actually, that has been a request. Um, by the way, there's a lot of chatter this last Friday, uh, when we were on, and I was like, oh, we're gonna see him.

We need to get Emery over here too.

They want, they want their Emery back.

Yeah, we've done a recharge of new, new merch. So it's— yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, I know. We'll have to surface that in our show notes, our link to our—

Yes. With our team.

Well loved, for sure.

Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Emery.

Thank you. Yeah, no, really appreciate it.

If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to like, share, and leave a review to help more listeners find the show. And be sure to subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your favorite podcasts so you never miss a beat. Have a question or a topic you'd love us to tackle? We're all ears. Drop us a line at info@accountantslawpod.com or send a message through our website, accountantslawpod.com. And don't go it alone. Join our weekly Accountants Law Lab mastermind sessions at accountantslawlab.com and connect with a community of accounting professionals just like you. And if you want to learn more about working with Confido, follow the links in the show notes below.

Should just say payments, payments, payments. You want to get paid? Get paid. There you go.

Clean up your AR now.

Frictionless, easy, seamless automation.

I love it.

Well, thank you guys for joining us.

Yeah, no, really, really appreciate it. And, uh, we'll, we'll get it promoted when it comes out for sure. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Thanks. Thank you.