Working with Attorneys

Welcome to Accountants LawPod, where accounting professionals and law firms converge, hosted by Linda Artesani, Sarah Prevost, and Steven Libhart.

This week on the podcast, we're going to discuss working with attorneys. What an odd topic for us to talk about. Actually, it's a really good topic, and I think we're going to just dive into different parts of working with attorneys and how fun it is and how maybe it may be challenging. So I'm going to ask Steve the first question because I know he's worked with attorneys for pretty much his whole accounting career. What do you love about working with attorneys, Steve?

I love being related to the law and the process of law, but not actually having to do it. And I love being the calming voice to the attorneys and reassuring them with their numbers and what they mean. And, you know, kind of focusing them on their business, having them take their attorney hat off and put on their business owner hat and making a difference for them. You know, that's hugely rewarding for me is to, to be able to help them run their business because so many of them jump into being a lawyer and they're like, oops, I still have to run a business and do books. And so if we can make it easy and as painless as possible, that's a huge reward for me. I just love working with attorneys.

What about you, Sarah? I know you've had— well, you still do. You have worked with attorneys and other industries. What do you think the difference is working with an attorney? Because we mostly— that's all we do. What do you think the difference is working with attorney and then working with maybe a decorator or, you know, like a contractor or trades?

Yeah, even film. I have got a few producers. in the mix. I will say there's very much like feeling that the biggest differentiator, in my opinion, is surrounding, of course, their fear of when they take their CLEs regarding trust, trust accounting, trust maintenance, understanding client costs. I appreciate their knowledge of We met with a client, one of our mutual clients, Linda. We were doing a little bit of a follow-up on a migration and cleanup of a file yesterday. And this individual figured out that they didn't necessarily need to do things in a certain order of sequence that we're all used to due to the type of law and some sort of benchmark line. And I thought, you know what, that's— it was a learning moment for us. I appreciated that. But it was also just really nice to be able to speak to that workflow. So I could just pivot, turn, and say, hey, you know what? Great information. Wonderful. But if you get to X, Y, and Z, we need to do this. And it was an absolute yes. It wasn't a question of drilling back into why. It was like, okay, yes, I get it. I know why. So in that area of profession, I really appreciate it. In other areas, you just have to be prepared to be always questioned. Always, always, always. It's in the nature of the individual. So—

That's what they do.

Don't take offense to it. Even though sometimes I find myself prickling up like, oh God, really? Then I realize, oh no, this is not indicative of your personality per se. It's indicative of the nature of the line of work that you're in. Okay, I can answer to that. So delineating that a little bit simply in my mind. So yeah, it's very different. Sometimes I do feel And depending on the other professions that I work with and the nature of what they're doing, it can get super emotional. So you have to sort of sidestep, and, and I have to sometimes change even my tone in, in my dialogue. My tone changes when I'm speaking with, uh, the attorney clientele versus anybody else. So yeah.

I think too, with working with attorneys— so I've always worked with all different, a lot of startups and all different kinds of industries that I think what gravitated me to them is the fact that they're ultra professional, right? They're highly educated. They're thoughtful. I think they get a bad rap as being— I mean, there's plenty of lawyer jokes out there to tell you the personality traits, right? But I think that a lot of times they're very giving people. I mean, we know that from working with a lot of the immigration attorneys. They're very giving. Family lawyers tend to be very— they seem to be very overworked, and it's draining because they're getting all this energy pushed onto them that comes from all the— because of the nature of their work, they're having— it's a very emotional kind of practice area. So specific kind of person has to work in that. And I think that it's definitely one of the other things I love about them is you ask them for a document, you get it back because they know the pain of not getting a document back on their own. Right?

Good point.

Very much so.

Yeah.

And I think that also when we work with them, they're deadline-driven as well. So they understand a deadline, which a lot of times when you're working with maybe the landscape guy, they're not so deadline-driven and they want to know, and they're not really educated in finances in law school. So they're usually very inquisitive and they really want to learn what we know. Sometimes they say, I want to learn it because I want to do it myself. And then you have to kind of step them back and caution them. Sounds great. When are you going to do this work? But a lot of times they're very— they want to know how their business is working. They're not the type to look, which a lot of industries just look at their checkbook. Oh, that's how much I made this year, which isn't necessarily the right picture of your business. But they're very inquisitive and they want to grow. If they know they're building their practice up very quickly, they might want to put the brakes on it, or at least know the ramifications of that. Have the money set aside for estimated taxes, because a lot of them are partnerships. There's so many good things about working with law firms and lawyers and the inner workings of it. And I think part of me wants to do that and work with them more. And then I started to think about, like, my first job as a 15-year-old was interning at a law firm being the file clerk. But I found all that fascinating. I could just see and read kind of the paperwork that I was filing away. And I think that that's what's drawn me to it. It kind of took a lot of years to get there, but it's definitely something that I think is really good to look at if that's the type of person you want to look like.

Well, it's interesting that you bring that up because you just did a micro macro. You did a little bit of a micro on the practice area of different ways, right? And a macro in the high level. But ultimately, Business across any business, my sense is, and I'm sure that we all feel this way, there's reasons why we sit where we sit. You're an attorney for a reason. I didn't ask you to do finances at this level, nor am I going to do marketing at this level myself.

Mm-hmm.

But I feel like in the sense of the appreciation, and this is, I think, where you were going a little bit too with it, Linda, there is an appreciation for the profession. There's an appreciation for your billable rate, whether it's a rate of an hour or if it's a flat fee. This profession does not have— some do. We've had a few recently, the stigmatism of like, oh my God, what's the price? Like, okay, let's be real. You earn more per hour if you want to go that route or flat rate, then why is this the conversation? And most professions, professionals in this line of industry that we cater to the most, it's not so much— it's, it's more about trust.

Mm-hmm.

compliance and understanding that you've got this. You know their entity and you know their line of work. And that is not the case for some people. If you're niching into the different areas, it doesn't have to be legal, but in ours it's about legal. But if you're niching into the other areas, really do the homework as we've previously noted. And I feel like that's where you were kind of going with this a little bit is you've got to get that down. To understand it. And you have to have a love for it, right?

You do.

You do.

And I'll tell you what, you have to have the backbone for it because they are very direct. That's what they do. That's why I think our partnership works so well, because you're really good at taking in the information, taking the pause, not reacting, and then sending out the message back. But it's super clear. I think you probably could have been a great attorney, Sarah, but you're super clear. you know where we stand. Because a lot of times we're formulating things in the background together. Like maybe somebody in the staff's like, how do I respond to this? And Sarah and I in the background like, this is what I would say. And we want them to be able to learn from it.

Yeah.

But it's, it's definitely— there's a fine art to communicating with them because sometimes I think a lot of times I always try to think, and I think this is probably my yoga brain, my yogi brain, is I think, all right, what was happening in their day? that the snippiness came from. And then, because we don't know what they had to deal with in their day, we don't know if they're a litigator, what they dealt with, with their family law. Maybe the family got taken away. You don't know the backstory of their day. So I try not to take it personally, but sometimes it feels real personal when you get that attack on you, and you will get that very direct, sometimes short answer back. Critical. They expect perfection. They don't really have a, a lot of wiggle room for Mistakes. I don't think they're not very forgiving at this.

I agree with you.

Yeah. I don't mean to come down on them, but this is what we're talking about.

I'm curious what, Steve, you do in a situation where they're coming in hot, right? Like something's happened, you know, it's not you. You're like, I'm looking forward to this. But in your experience, in your tenure of doing this, what do you do in that situation? How do you— it's like you don't want to use the word let's calm down, or that's so— I hate that when people like—

You know what I do? I just say to them, It's okay for you to be upset right now. It's okay for you to take a breath and slow down a little bit. We're going to transition out of your life right now into this other side of your business. And if this isn't the best time for it, just give me your topics that you want me to get information on and I'll get back with you. Maybe we can schedule a better time. I mean, there's lots of verbiage you can use and asking them questions like, Are you getting— I do this. Are you getting enough sleep? When was the last time you went for a walk? Things like that. Because suddenly they're like, oh, there's another life out here. Yeah.

Hopefully you've got a good relationship to do this, right?

Yeah.

I was just going to say that you turn your conversation that way.

Just remember this, Sarah. If he ever looks at us and says, do you need a good night's sleep?

Well, I like to work with those kinds of attorneys that really Yeah. That really appreciate what we do. And I try to find ways to really— like we had one this morning, yesterday afternoon, who sent this email through that she wasn't going to send 1099s to attorneys at the end of the year because of this and because of that. And she just— this email was pages long and it just went. And then I just refocused it this morning, sent the IRS guidelines, you know, sent a couple other things. I'm like, this is what the real picture is and let me know if you want to talk about it. And You know, you just— you have to— you have to take control of the situation when it's on the accounting side. And I think they really appreciate that because they know they're working with a professional, that they're going to get the information. If you say you're going to do it, you stay up till 10:00 at night to do it, you know, those sort of things. But they know that we're going to respond and be there for them. And I think that if you set the relationship up that way from the get-go and let them know, I'm always here for you, if I don't have the answer, I'll find it for you. I'll be honest. You know, let them know that you're human as well. You know, finding out in conversations, are they married? Do they have kids? When's their anniversary? When's their birthday? Put it on your calendar. Remember it. Acknowledge them on that day.

Mm-hmm.

It really, really makes you become part of their family, if you will. I had one law firm down in Florida that, um, actually it was a CPA firm that did high-dollar divorce cases. And I never met those people, obviously, because they're in Florida and I'm in Colorado. But I got them to the point where one Christmas they called me like the week before Christmas and they were at their holiday party and they had a picture of me at a place on the table. And they're like, look, Steve, you're here with us. And I was like, oh, this is great. You know, and I try to set up those relationships that way, that I'm the safe space here for you. You know, go ahead and yell at me, but I'm going to still tell you the same thing.

You need that. They need that, like, moment of— it's just like the big hot balloon, and then it's not you, right?

Right.

And/or circumstantial, like something— like, literally, it was a circumstantial moment. And I could tell Linda wrote me and said, hey, I might need you in here because this person's hot to trot right now, and they're not happy, and they're prickly, and it's not the same person. No, of course I came in, and whether I added value or not, which I think I did in some ways, but in other ways I might have just—

Because he was so upset, and then you popped in and it was like, hi, Sarah. I'm like, yeah, yeah.

But you know, that's a good point, knowing when to bring in your backup. Yeah. And also what's real important here, I think, that just came to my mind, is to give yourself permission not to be walked all over You're not the whipping post here. And if you're in one of those toxic relationships, like anything else in life with an attorney, don't be afraid to let go. Don't be afraid to cut bait if you have to.

Yeah, I had that with a client that I had had before Sarah that's on my Ardisani side. And she was a bully. She was an outright bully. And I remember one day I was like, I was ready to just cut the ties right there because I was like, I can't do this anymore. Even though you know, I've had this relationship for a long time. And I sent the email to Sarah and Sarah rewrote my answer. She sent my answer back and said, oh no, you don't say you're sorry ever. And she went through this whole thing, which kind of leads us into where you're going with Scaling New Heights, where you're going to teach people how to do this. But you also like helped me reword it from a stronger stance because I was becoming the whipping post, you know. And, and she— and since then the ladies please and thank you. And she still gets snippy once in a while. I don't know why. I think it's just her personality that I took personally, totally. But I think that the change by the words that I sent, it's never been the same relationship with her since. But also, when we talk about working with attorneys, which is the topic, I'm thinking of the listener here. What advice would you give to someone that's considering working with an attorney or maybe walking down that niching road? What would you say to them, Sarah, that you might want to tell them up front that you maybe learned on the fly? Like, for example, emailing really quick. I have this habit of the email comes in, I answer it, boom, boom, boom. And I taught that person I'm gonna be almost like a texting response. So if I don't do that, they get snippy. So Sarah kind of pulled me out of that. And you can use in Google Gmail really good. Send later.

It's a great tip.

Yeah. Sarah, what do you have for tips?

Okay, I had a thought, though, really quick, because how many times— and I'm just asking the two of you and our audience too— oftentimes what I hear, and I'll just use our profession that we're experts in right now, is, oh my God, I totally hate working with attorneys.

Oh, they're the worst all the time.

And I think that— and I'm like, oh, good. Thank you. Bring it on.

People ask us, why do you work with attorneys? How can you stand working with them? I'm like, I don't get to ask anymore. They break their trust all the time. They trust a bank account and they trust ledgers all the time.

Oh, I don't.

It's not coming back to you.

Yeah, I don't get to ask. It's more of like just a statement, right? And I'm like, okay, that's fine. And then a couple of times later, I'll get a question of like, Well, how does it work? Well, what do you mean, how does it work? It's like every profession. But really, in the end, and this has been learned, I have taught myself this. This is self-taught. This is not something I woke up one day. I've always had a very strong personality. I used to be super introverted for so long, so quiet. And no one believes this about me, but I was really shy. And I remember a moment where I told myself, I will never shine if I just don't stand out by myself, do myself. So anyways, I— the best of us. I just heard an amazing blogger that I enjoy listening to, and she, what I want to call bamboozled, had been gaslit, all this stuff that happened to her over something similar. I was going to talk to you about Linda privately, but I was a little bit like, oh my gosh, well, I came out of this space, right? Kind of mid-30s, 40s. And I thought to myself, how in the hell did I allow myself to be in this position again? Oh no, I'm done. So I really kind of elevated internally this self-conversation of how I'm going to operate and how I'm going to show up. And what I find is I— it's not about me, it's about where I'm at right now in this moment of time. So when, when I'm feeling that I'm, I am backed in a corner, and this actually came out of a therapy session, uh, when I backed in a corner, I do not come out nice.

At all.

Okay, so I know that about myself. I'm not going to be backed in a corner anymore. When I'm backed in a corner, I'm going to pause. I'm going to listen, and I'm going to let you state what you need. And then I'm going to think about what I'm missing. What am I not hearing? Because I'm not hearing something because I'm so upset, I'm so defensive, or I'm so like off-put by your behavior. And then I'm like, oh wait, what's the crux of the issue? It has nothing to do with me. 99% of it is not me. 99%. Look, if it's about me, I'll own it and I'll say it right then and there to your face. But if it's not about me, which it isn't, I'm going to make sure in the kindest, most professional way, I'm going to find a way to let you know. Let's focus on kind of what you did, Steve. What is the problem? But without saying it, because to them it's not a problem. To them it's on fire. To them it's— and depends on the clientele, which in our case is attorneys, which If we remember the persona of who that is, there— it's a lot of them don't want to be combative, but they're used to being defensive. They're used to probing. They're used to questioning. They're used to drilling and drilling and drilling to a point of satisfaction or not, right? So they'll leave it at that, and they make jokes and remarks. So, okay, I know this. Got it. All right. How I'm going to approach you is a completely different person. Now, for one, If you're going to send me a message and you expect an answer in 2 minutes, oh, hell no. That's— I'm sorry, that's off the table. That's not happening. You're going to have a pause. Maybe that might take me 2 days, might take me 3. If you send me a text and I don't respond right away and you send me another text, I'm going to write back and say, I'm actually kind of busy. Give me a minute and I'll respond. I'll let you know. I'm not ignoring you. I'll communicate. I communicate. And when I don't communicate, that's when I apologize. That's when I say, I do— I'm sincerely sorry, I have been dealing with X, Y, and Z. They don't need to know what it is exactly, just a high level, and move on. They aren't apologizing to us when they don't respond weeks on end. So I'm mirroring your behavior. If I get the same sort of lack of response from you, oh, that's going to happen to you too. That goes back the other way. So it's that kind of— To me, I'm going to show up as me. But I'm also gonna evaluate, and the psychology of that evaluation and what happens in my brain— for me, that's just me. And that's what I was explaining to Linda when she was dealing with this constant and this expectation. Well, okay, I'm— where am I? I'm the professional in this. I own my space. I don't own your bad behavior. I didn't show up with your junk in the bag to tell me what's gonna happen today. You could park it at the door and move on. And we'll just focus on what Steve said.

It literally was about something my staff did. They didn't code one bill out of I don't know how many thousands of bills that had come in. They didn't code it. They coded it to against cost, but they didn't put the name of the matter in, so it got missed. That was the one thing that they did. And it didn't matter that they coded, I don't know, 99,000 of them right. The one, and it was just— and I felt bad that it happened. I mean, yeah, because then it became too late to bill out and the law firm had to absorb the costs. And I was ready to give her money back for that. And Sarah's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Well, here, I'll be honest with you. Last night, we're all human. I totally missed a cutoff period for payroll. Okay. My bad. It happens. I was pushed to the moment. There was accountability on the other person's side. Well, I'm not going to sit here and do that in an email. So I just politely wrote what had happened. I let them know, and I offered to write the individuals, the employees directly, to let them know that the pay date will change due to the holiday, because I don't want the reflection to be poorly on the employer. That gentleman handled it very kind. It could have gone. whatever way it was going to go. And at that point, it is what it is. But you know what? We're— aren't we all human?

Yes.

Well, that's a huge point. Admitting when we make a mistake, it's okay to admit it. Totally okay to admit it. You know, in accounting, you can do 1,238 things right, and the one thing you do wrong is what everybody's going to remember. So I love the way you handled that. You had— you admitted to it. You had an action plan. You know, inside you were probably like, oh my God, what happened?

Well, that pain of like, oh shoot, that is like those— like, it's kind of like your employees. But yeah, in the end I'm like, grow up, Sarah, you got to move on.

Yeah, stuff happens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So the thing I've always admired about you though, Sarah, too, is you're a great listener. And sometimes that's what the attorney needs, just to vent. You know, how often have you been in a conversation with an attorney and they go off to Saturn? I call it Saturn. And, you know, has nothing to do with what we're doing, but they want to be heard.

I love it.

And so you sit and listen and you're like, wow, that, you know, and you can share. Obviously, we're going to keep everything confidential, but you can say, hey, you know what? We just had another client that had this experience and this is how it was handled. That's always a great one too.

And that's so good, Steve, because you're bringing up the point of the area that this high-level space that we are in, this coveted space that we're in, in the niche that we have. And everyone does this in their own niche. So if you're in ecommerce, if you're this, if you're that, if you understand a little bit more of the cog in the wheel kind of moment, if you get the nitty-gritty, I think you said it the other day, it's like you can learn from X, Y, and Z at a bar that helps you understand the profession. It, it just gives you that moment of kind of like, look, I may not be doing the exact thing, but you're— yeah, you're in arbitration. It's going to run over. It doesn't mean my meeting with you is not important. This is totally understandable if we have to reschedule. I get it. Like, circumstances change it. And the more that that trust comes in, and I think that's where you're kind of like, you're saying it too, is like You give that moment. That's how you get to that elevated space with your clientele and you get the seat at the table like you so wonderfully got, even though you weren't able to sit right there. I love that story. Thank you.

Well, I want to say to the newbies out there that are watching this today, feel the fear and do it anyway. We were not born knowing how to do this work. Know that today, nowadays, above all times in history, remotely, you've got a cast There's a vast cast of people out here who will help you. This podcast, the Law Lab, different things. Feel the fear and do it anyway. And don't be afraid to say to the attorney, I don't know. I don't know. I will get back to you. That's okay.

And don't you think, Steve, that's a fear that we have because we're working with this ultra professional that we think we need to know everything? And sometimes that's like you don't need, because they'll ask you a real pointed question and they may even use really large words that you're not even familiar with sometimes. And don't be intimidated by that because you can ask them, like, I don't understand exactly what you're asking. Because sometimes, as much as they are so pointed in questioning and all the things that they do, they're not good at communicating. Sometimes when they come to emails to us, like, they don't tell us the backstory. They just put a response out there, a question, and then we're sitting there going, what the heck did they mean with this?

Or the pressure, like, I need the reports yesterday. I'm sorry. Did I change your day of when reports are due? I recall it being on this day. Did something just light on fire and I just— oh, I'm buying a house. Well, that could have been told to me a couple more weeks ago.

You know what I mean?

It's just like this. Yeah. I need to have my financials done.

Yeah.

Well, and when you get that though too, Linda, don't we find that we're like, okay, we have to be a little extra sensitive. Thank you for telling us. We'll make sure things are a little bit more on the up and up. More on a quick way.

The client, Sarah, that didn't give us what we needed to complete the reconciliations because we've been asking and asking and asking, and all of a sudden it's like, oh, I'm buying a house, and you're trying to dredge back 6 months of statements because they didn't give it to you. And so you're like, well, I'm missing, or I'm missing these details, or this stuff is in the Ask My Accountant account because—

That's where you add a little humor. You sprinkle humor in there. Like, I don't remember being the the roadrunner in this right now, but give me a minute and I'll help you out.

Like, I like that.

I like that.

You know, like, I think things like that, I, I, you have to diffuse, I feel like, a little bit because the intensity of it sometimes is like, I just, I'm just like, okay, well, hold up now. Respectfully, you didn't give me that chance. Like, give me the opportunity to meet the needs. And I understand it's, it's, you know, elevated, whatever it is that you need, but I forgot what I even wrote for you.

Stuff happens.

Stuff happens.

Yeah. So working with attorneys is interesting. It's definitely challenging, which is why you want to go into working in this specialty area, because it's not one that's going to be automated away in the near future, I don't think, because of the complexity. It takes a lot of our human brain to figure out what happened when we're looking at some of this data and trying to correct it and fix it. So I think that that's a great reason why you'd want to work with the attorneys besides the professionalism and the—

Yeah.

They tend to be pretty good with record keeping. So, and they're very invested in their business. They want to know. Those are the pluses. I think what I'm thinking is comparing it to other industries that I've worked with in the past, and they're really busy, so they don't have a lot of time. They're not bugging you. Have you ever had a client that bugged you all the time because they don't have a lot going on? This is the opposite. This is the flip side of it. Because attorneys are busy. They're usually—

Good point.

That's a really good point. Well, you know what, too? And I think Steve does this, Linda. You and I do this quite often. It's like, what's going on in your life? You don't want to spend too much on idle chitchat, but you kind of feather it into the conversation.

Exactly. Exactly.

Then it becomes apparent. And I think Steve does this really well, and I'm honored by this, is a note-taking of like, oh, they like— he does, I don't know, Hermès, or they like pedicures, or they're talking about their horse, or, you know what I mean? These small, subtle moments. So it— and, you know, it might be a small gift that's random. Of course, we have to honor the gift-giving.

Let's use your horse example. You might be driving down the road on your day off and you see a field full of horses. Snap the picture, send it to that attorney. Was thinking of you. Hope you're having a great day. That will get you miles.

Yeah, just being human. I think, Linda, what you're saying, the AI, all of these things, these tools, this magnitude of stuff that's coming at this rapid speed at this very moment. We're human beings. We always have an element of human interaction that we're going to have to manage. We're always going to have the human feeling and emotion decision-making process. My children, this is happening. Family in-laws, whatever it is. I think in the end, it's a profession. It just happens to suit my personality. It suits Linda's and Steve's.

Yeah, it's one that may suit yours. If you're listening, it may suit yours. So I think that if you're considering it, try it out. We always say, and I know when I was thinking about specializing, you pick 3. Look at your list, pick 3. Don't have to narrow yourself down to one because— and if that doesn't even work and one floats to the top and you think it's the one, and then you're like halfway through going, ah, this isn't working, is not really gonna hurt you too badly if you switch. I mean, it's, it's, you'll find though, the one that really resonates with you will float to the top and it will, it, the one that's most rewarding. And I can tell you the benefits of working in one industry or one specialization is just, there's an abundance of benefits.

Yeah.

Because now you train your staff on maybe your workflow, your particular software. You can learn about that industry to the micro level, which is, The things that we get to do that you don't do as a generalist. You can't. You don't have time. And, you know, that's the benefit of really niching down your firm and specializing. So I think it's a wonderful thing. Best decision I ever made in my career.

Absolutely. There's no other way.

Yeah, perfect. 100%. Well, Steve, this was a good conversation. Sarah, we're gonna let Steve take us away on this show. So take it away, Steve.

Well, thank you. We certainly hope you all enjoyed it today. And if you'd like to subscribe to the podcast and our YouTube channel. You can just search in the Accountants Law Pod or follow the links in the show notes. If you have questions, topic requests, or great suggestions, you can email us at info@accountantslawpod.com or send us a message through our website, www.accountantslawpod.com. If you want to join us in the Accountants Law Lab, visit our website at www.accountantslollab.com to sign up. It's a great, great weekly meeting. You'll love it.

Oh my God.

Please be sure to look us up for Accountants LawPod updates and follow us on Instagram at the Accountants LawPod.

And we didn't say pad. We said pod.

No, we said pod. Yay.

I almost stumbled over it today.

I love it. Well, and we just had a really good— in the Law Lab, we just had a really good conversation. It was a very good app demonstration that's relevant to what we need to do. And so I thought— and Steve enjoyed it. Enjoyed it before you got back, Linda. Steve was like, this was awesome. So it was, it was great.

Well, we, we, as you know, we use that, that platform and we just love it. So it was so nice to have him as a guest. And, you know, if you join the Law Lab, you'll get to, you'll get to learn a lot deeper the things that we're talking about.

Exactly. More of a deeper knowledge for sure. Well, thanks everybody.

This has been fun.

Thank you.

We'll see you all next time.

Bye-bye.

Bye.

Bye-bye.