What Art Does For Your Brain

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. The Old Testament tells the story of King Saul, a ruler who was frequently gripped by waves of anguish and despair. When Saul was afflicted by such torments, his advisors didn't always call for a physician or a priest. Instead, they summoned a young shepherd named David, known for his skill at playing the lyre. As the music began to play, King Saul's mind would settle and his mood would lift. For centuries, stories like this have been treated as legend— poetic, symbolic, even mystical. But do they point to something real? Today, a growing body of scientific research suggests that suggests that music, painting, dance, and storytelling do far more than entertain us. They calm our nervous systems, reshape our emotions, and even influence our physical health. This week on Hidden Brain, and in a companion story on Hidden Brain Plus, why the arts are no luxury, but rather a vital form of medicine Support for Hidden Brain comes from Southern New Hampshire University. The brain isn't fixed. It's flexible. That means we're always capable of transformation. A master's degree from SNHU can help you build the skills to become whoever you want: a leader, career changer, dream chaser. With no set class times and low online tuition, SNHU makes grad school possible. I'm a graduate student at SNHU. Because it's never too late to learn something new. Get started at snhu.edu/brain. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Planet Visionaries. Professional climber and environmental advocate Alex Honnold hosts Planet Visionaries, a podcast spotlighting the people tackling climate challenges with real hopeful solutions. Throughout season 6, Alex brings together extraordinary changemakers for powerful conversations about grit, determination, and the power of hope to fuel our fight for a better future. In partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative, this is Planet Visionaries. Listen or watch wherever you get your podcasts. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those iced lattes you love. Switch to Progressive and see if you could save. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Think about the last time a piece of music stopped you in your tracks, or a novel kept you up late into the night, or a painting made you feel something you couldn't quite put into words. Why do these experiences feel so powerful? For a long time, scientists didn't have a clear answer. The arts seemed too subjective, too personal to study in any systematic way. But that's starting to change. At University College London, psychobiologist Daisy Fancourt has found that these moments are not just meaningful, they're measurable. And they can play a crucial role in our emotional and psychological well-being. Daisy Fancourt, welcome to Hidden Brain.

Thank you.

It's lovely to be with you.

Daisy, as a young woman, you were very involved in music, singing and playing the piano. What did you notice about the emotional and psychological effects that music and the arts had on you and your friends?

I feel really lucky because I was born into a family of professional musicians. So the arts were just so much a part of my day-to-day upbringing. I don't think I really reflected on what a privilege that is to have that kind of exposure at such a young age. I mean, I remember so clearly that if ever I felt stressed or worried about anything as a teenager, I used to go and play the piano just sort of instinctively. And I knew that was something that would help me. And I certainly have noticed that a lot of the relationships, the friendships that I built early on, they came through playing music with friends, being in orchestras or bands or in musical theater. So I think it was a lot more fundamental and foundational to me than I necessarily appreciated at that young age.

I understand, Daisy, that while you were in college, you began working in a pediatric hospital. Tell me about this work, where it was, and what you did.

It was an incredible program that was open to students at Oxford University where I was studying. And alongside your studies, you could train to go and deliver arts programmes in hospitals. And it was something I just jumped at immediately, 'cause I was still fascinated by science and medicine and keen to find a way to blend the two. So we received training and then worked in paediatric hospital wards doing singing workshops with the children. And I was just completely blown away by the impact that I saw the singing having. I kind of expected it to be a nice bit of entertainment. But actually I was seeing directly that singing with children who were really anxious and crying and distressed would stop them crying and would actually completely calm them down. And I saw these amazing interactions between patients and their siblings that actually music was providing this form of emotional and social connection for them, even in this very challenging and kind of often inhumane kind of environments of the hospital. So I was actually able to witness the benefits I hadn't really appreciated that music could have.

I understand that on one occasion you observed a premature baby in the hospital who was crying inconsolably and refusing to eat. Tell me that story.

We were working in NICUs, the neonatal intensive care units, with some of the parents and actually trying to help the mothers sing with their babies. And I remember this one child who was just crying and crying, and the mother was really struggling, and you could see it was really impacting her psychologically as well. But as soon as we started singing this lullaby and she started singing along with her baby as well, the baby's behavior just completely changed. And within a couple of minutes, it was suddenly feeding again.

I'm assuming that part of this might have also been that singing was calming the mom down, and perhaps that was also sending a signal to her child.

Absolutely. And this is something that we actually saw so many times across different wards, that often the parents were the ones who were the most anxious and really actually struggling the most with the situations they were in. And actually giving them a way that they could engage and play and respond with their children through singing was something that was supporting that whole family unit together.

Another time you saw a child being treated for burns. He was in severe pain. What did you observe, Daisy?

Well, after I finished college, I actually got a full-time job working in our National Health Service, so working in hospitals, designing new arts programs. And one of the wards we worked on was in the emergency department. And I remember there was a little boy who'd come in who'd had really terrible burns, and there was a delay in managing to get morphine to him. And he was calling out for pain relief.

Hmm.

But actually, there was a theater group that we had in the hospital, and they started doing this performance for him in the emergency department. And again, it was just this complete change in his behavior. He suddenly wasn't asking for pain relief. He was smiling and laughing along with what they were doing. And you could see that that distraction that had provided had been sufficient for him no longer And was this theatrical production, was it aimed at children?

Was it aimed at his age group?

Yes, it was. It was from a wonderful group called Chicken Shed who specialized in how you could engage young people with the arts. And we brought them into the hospital. They'd specialized in working in disability art, but we brought them in and said, well, can we adapt this and develop programs that would be really targeting the children who are in the hospital? And they delivered some amazing performances. programs across our pediatric wards.

So even as you were seeing the effects that the arts were having on patients, you were also noticing that among some of your colleagues, doctors and administrators, they saw this as a form of entertainment, not as a form of therapy. Can you talk about this disconnect that you experienced, Daisy?

Well, it was sort of a situation where if people didn't know what it was and you started describing it, it was sort of described as, oh yeah, the hospital entertainment programme. But actually, I noticed that as soon as we started working closely with clinicians on their wards, they actually really started to get it. They started to see this impact. Like, we brought music onto the dementia wards, and immediately when we started playing these songs, there were these patients who couldn't remember their relatives but were suddenly singing along word perfect. And you could see the clinicians suddenly looking And then we were having these great conversations where we were saying, well, how can we use this? How can we use this with the patients to support them whilst they're in hospital? So I was seeing these moment-to-moment transitions in how the arts were being perceived by the clinical staff as we started working more closely with them. But it was still at a stage where we didn't fully have the evidence to sort of say, well, that's because of these scientific studies. Like, we were seeing the impact, but not always having those scientific papers to fall back on to explain it. explain it. So it really highlighted for me this gap in terms of scientific research in being able to make that case rather than having to demonstrate it physically all the time.

Daisy had seen that engagement with the arts was healing people and making them whole. When we come back, we follow Daisy as she becomes a researcher. She discovers why the arts have such striking effects, and how to integrate them into the practice of medicine. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds. Because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on those iced lattes you love. Switch to Progressive and see if you could save. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates, and other insurers. Not available in all states. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Quince. We all have those pieces in our closet that we can count on. The versatile jacket, the perfect t-shirt. These are the pieces that make getting dressed easy. And that's what Quince does best. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials in designs that are timeless, thoughtfully crafted, and made to be worn again and again. And when the temperatures start to drop, Quince makes it easy to build on these everyday staples with versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, Or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Hidden Brain. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. After seeing firsthand the benefits of the arts in her own life and in the lives of her patients, Daisy Fancourt became a researcher. She started to generate hard scientific evidence for the benefits of the arts on our health. Over the past couple of decades, she and others have identified distinct ways in which the arts affect our bodies and our minds. Daisy, you say that engaging with the arts can elevate our mood and increase our sense of well-being, not just in the moment, but over time. How is this happening? And do we understand the brain mechanisms behind this?

It's actually one of the things people report the most when you ask them how they feel when they engage in the arts. They'll often say they feel happier. And we actually are really starting to understand more about the neuroscience of why this is, because when we engage in the arts, we are essentially activating pleasure centres in the brain and reward networks like the dopaminergic system, which leads to the release of neurotransmitters like dopamine, which are involved in those feelings of happiness, of pleasure. And actually, we used to think that we just got these dopamine releases at the kind of peak moments of arts experiences, like if you're listening to a song and that chorus comes back and you have that kind of yes moment.

Mm-hmm.

But we also now know that you get those in anticipation of those moments. It's the buildup to the return of that chorus, or if you are reading a story, it's those moments when you're about to find out who the murderer is in a big detective novel, for example. And actually, that's why the arts are so effective at giving us these dopamine releases because arts experiences are constantly about tension and resolution and anticipating what might happen and seeing if we're right or having our expectations thwarted. So essentially, when we engage in the arts, we are giving our brains these repeated doses of dopamine, and that helps us to feel happier in the moment. But also over time, we see that the more regularly engaged we are, the higher the levels of our happiness that we have, the higher our life satisfaction.

Hmm.

And particularly if we are getting involved in doing and making arts as well, it can affect so many other aspects of our wellbeing, like our, our self-esteem, our sense of meaning and purpose and autonomy.

Now, the arts evoke all kinds of different emotions. So we might, you know, watch a horror movie and feel scared, or we might listen to heavy metal and feel pumped up. How is it that these experiences can also produce feelings of happiness and peace when in some ways the experiences themselves might seem antithetical to happiness and peace?

It's true. It feels like a paradox, doesn't it? That the idea you could watch a horror movie or read a really sad book, but somehow it's still good for your wellbeing. And the reason for this is that when we engage in arts, in, for example, sad or scary or shocking arts experiences, we actually experience positive and negative emotions simultaneously. So, if you experience those sad, scary, or shocking events in real life, it would just be probably deeply traumatic.

Hmm.

But because we know it's art, our brain treats us a little bit differently. So, we've got a little bit of an aesthetic distance between us and that arts experience. And that distance means that we experience those emotions, but we don't have to respond to them. We don't have to change like the scary experience in our lives. We've not got to try and stop that fear. So actually, we get to contemplate it. That means our brains get to rehearse how they might regulate their emotions or think about how we might respond in the real world. And that's actually something our brains love to do. And it's actually really good for us as well because our brains are prediction machines. So when we engage in the arts, we're actually helping to expose ourselves to new situations that can help us navigate complex experiences when they come up in our real lives. And also that those experiences, even like listening to sad songs when we're feeling sad, it can give us a feeling of kind of authentic emotional connection, a feeling that other people might have experienced similar emotions, and that can also support us psychologically.

And perhaps this is why when people are really upset, sometimes they reach for sad songs, which would seem paradoxical, Which is paradoxical because you would think that people would wanna listen to songs that are happy songs, but very often we are looking for music that matches our internal emotional barometers.

Exactly. And actually, sometimes it's through listening to those lyrics and songs or those melodies that we can start to understand our own emotions better. And that means we can then process them and be able to cope with them better too.

We had a guest on Hidden Brain recently, Colton Scrivener, who talked about the effects of watching horror movies or scary experiences. And he was studying the effects that these have on our minds. But as you're talking right now, I'm realizing that in some ways there's a parallel. When we watch a scary movie about a shark or a monster of some kind, in some ways it's a form of exposure therapy.

It is. You see this most clearly with young children who might want to read a ghost story over and over again because they're our brains are practicing having that fear, managing that fear, being able to rationalize it. And we're often really drawn to those scary experiences. But there is a kind of caveat here, which is some people like me hate scary films. And that's because actually we're forgetting that it is art. When I watch a scary movie, I get so drawn into it, I kind of think it's real life, and therefore I lose that distance and I just get scared.

Hmm.

So, that is a kind of caveat here, is that we have to be appreciating those experiences for art. And it's why sometimes if we've listened to a lot of really sad songs when we're feeling sad, again, we can get drawn in just a little bit too much and actually find that it's not supporting us in the right way.

Talk about the role of the arts in helping us to regulate our emotions, Stacey.

When we engage in the arts, it can actually give our brain a kind of toolkit of ways of managing our emotions. So some of the time it can be that if we are painting or dancing or singing or drumming, then we're actually cathartically getting rid of our emotions. We might be venting them, for example, if we're feeling angry or expressing those moods through our arts. But there are also other times when actually it can be really helpful for us to distance ourselves from emotions in our lives. If we're doing arts, it can give us a chance to be really mindful and just focus on the arts and give our brains a break from stresses or worries in our lives.

Hmm.

Or it can even give us that chance to think differently, to kind of reappraise what might be going on. Lots of people will have had the experience where you do something really creative and actually because you're calmer, because you are focused on the drawing you're doing or the dancing you're doing, you actually find yourself thinking a bit differently about the world. And by the time you've finished, you actually think differently about the problem you might have had in the first place. So arts can be this amazing way of giving our brains lots of different ways that we can then contemplate or reassess or cope with challenges we might be facing.

I understand that one study in the US induced negative emotions in people by asking them to think about a very sad event or showing them, you know, photographs of tragedies like funeral scenes or experiences of torture and suffering. Describe this experiment for me and what it found, Daisy.

This is a really interesting study that said, well, if we give people kind of puzzles or we tell them to draw shapes and copy things, then will that help to regulate their emotions, to calm them down, for example, or to de-stress them in a better or worse way than if we actually let them do creative things? And what they actually found is if people had that creative freedom, like they could draw freely or they could write expressively about what they were feeling, they actually helped to regulate their emotions much better, much faster. So it really highlighted that the creativity in the arts is one of the things that can really support us when we're feeling stressed or when we're feeling worried.

Hmm.

I understand that you've seen something of this phenomenon firsthand when it comes to your own daughter.

Well, I've got young children, and as any parents to young children will be able to attest, like you see children really having to grapple with some big emotions and big experiences. And something I've noticed with my own kids is that if ever they're feeling worried about something or anxious about something, then just being able to hand them some paper and crayons, it's incredible how much they'll start to draw that. Sometimes it's sort of angry scribbling, other times it's more cathartic drawing of calm shapes. And my children are only toddlers, so they're really young, but that just shows how innately young children are drawn to using the arts in this very organic way to support their emotions. And I think we can forget this as we become adults. we can forget that the arts can be such a powerful way of supporting our emotions. So I always think children are such an amazing example of this for us.

You've studied the effects of group singing on patients dealing with cancer. Tell me about this work, Daisy.

I've looked at the effect that the arts can have in lots of different patient groups where actually we might have a medical treatment for the illness, but we might not have a solution for thinking about holistically what that person is experiencing. The work that I've done in cancer hospitals in the UK, we've looked at having choirs for people, which have been a way of bringing people together in a social setting where they might be able to find some social support and companionship and people who understand what they're going through. But also singing is something that physiologically can relax them. We've discovered through the studies that when we sing, we reduce our levels of stress hormones.

Mm-hmm.

And we also reduce inflammation. in our immune system, which is linked not just to our physical health, but also to feelings like depression, depressive symptoms. And we've also found that people can experience a real sense of confidence through the choirs if they are learning this new skill of singing together, they're putting on performances. We found through our research that patients who'd been in the studies were saying that they'd felt that their self-esteem had taken a real hit when they'd been undergoing cancer treatment.

Hmm.

But this was actually a way they were performing again. They were feeling more confident in their bodies, more confident socially, and it was helping them to navigate the cycle Hmm. I'm also reflecting on the fact that group singing involves singing in a group.

So it's not just the music or the singing, it's probably helping patients connect with others.

Very much so. And I think we see this across lots of different kinds of arts experiences. They can be this vehicle to us getting social interaction or physical activity in dance, for example, or cognitive stimulation. So things that we already know are beneficial for us, are really good for our health. So, the arts organically bring lots of those ingredients together, but the arts also do bring extra things as well. They're a chance for more multisensory stimulation and creativity and an appreciation of aesthetics and the use of our imagination. And I think it's the fact that the arts can combine all of those things into one experience that makes them so powerful for our health.

Now, of course, trying to express yourself in art requires a certain amount of craft and control. Talk a little bit about how engaging in the arts can give us feelings of mastery, feelings of control.

This is something that many people can find challenging in their lives, is finding a way that they can feel that sense of mastery and control. And some people can get that through their work or through their home life, but there are plenty of people who don't actually get that, who can feel really disempowered in other aspects of their lives. But lots of studies have now shown that if we can engage in the arts and build artistic skills, even really simple things like learning to play a piece on the guitar or learning how to do a simple crafts activity, like do some knitting or crocheting or embroidery, this can be a really good way of actually building our sense of ability, our sense that we can do something, our sense of mastery. And this is one of the really core components of our wellbeing. So, it's a very important thing to make sure that we're cultivating. But it can also then help us to build our belief in ourselves, our feelings of our own self-efficacy or agency. And these are really important life skills that actually affect all of our other health behaviours too.

Mm-hmm.

If people start to feel a sense that they're good at something creative, they've built up that skill, then that can help them to feel more confident that they could try a different skill in their lives. So, so many studies have shown that something as simple as joining a community arts group, for example, can lead to quite major life decisions like taking up another health behavior or changing job or, or deciding to go out and find new friends, taking on challenges people hadn't thought they could do before.

You tell the story of a woman named Shay.

Can you tell me her story, Shay is an attorney who currently now lives in Houston, and she is someone who described to me that she had a really successful career as an attorney, but just wasn't feeling really fulfilled from that work. She described her life as being kind of gray rather than technicolor. And she was really concerned about this, particularly as her mother became very unwell with developed cancer. And her mother was saying to her, I really want you to find that sense of fulfillment in your life. But Shay remembered being really happy through singing experiences when she was younger. So, she took this big leap and she signed up to a week-long music course at Berklee College, a kind of unconventional vacation. And she described to me how this was a complete turning point in her life, that that course made her feel so happy, built that sense of mastery, really changed her whole outlook on herself and what she could do as well as the rest of her life. So, after that, she decided that she was going to shift her attorney work. And still carry on, but actually make much more space for music in her life. And she started doing more singer-songwriting work and even doing tours. And now, like years later, she says that she's completely transformed that sense of wellbeing in her life. She's managed to use music to sort of compensate and balance out the things that she wasn't getting through her work. And I feel like Shay's story is such a universal one. There are so many people who feel like their jobs are not giving them that full sense of fulfilment, but actually don't realise that something as simple as developing an artistic hobby on the side could completely change that sense of balance in their lives and as a result, their whole experience of their wellbeing.

So given all these strands of research, I'm wondering if there's evidence that the arts can help to ward off depression, Daisy?

This is a really important question and one that started fascinating me about 10 years ago, because when you add together all of the evidence we've been talking about for the benefits for the brain, for our wellbeing, it starts to make you think, well, might the arts actually support our overall psychological resilience? So perhaps we are more protected against the risk of developing conditions like depression. So I work as an epidemiologist, so my field of work involves using very large datasets, cohort studies that track tens of thousands of people over years and decades of their lives. And actually, a lot of these cohort studies, which I analyse in the US and in the UK, have looked at people's arts engagements. They've included lots of questions about their arts behaviours. So over the last 10 years, my team and I have been publishing dozens of papers actually looking at how arts engagement relates to the risk of developing depression over the following decades. And we found that people who engage regularly in the arts and have an artistic hobby actually have about half the risk of developing depression over the next 10 years. So, you could say, well, are these people just healthier or wealthier or have other patterns of behaviours in their lives? But as epidemiologists, we use statistical methods to basically try and account for all the other factors that could explain this relationship. So, demographics, behaviours, genetics, other aspects of people's lives, or even their past histories. And we've actually seen that this relationship is independent of these factors. In other words, arts engagement seems to act as this risk-reducing factor against the risk of developing future mental illness.

Is it clear which way the arrow of causation runs, though? You could imagine that someone who is not feeling depressed, somebody who's feeling generally happy with their lives, might be willing to take up a paintbrush or try their hand at a singing choir. And somebody who is depressed might stay away from those activities. Do we know that it's the arts that is reducing the risk of depression or people with lower depression who might be more engaged with the arts?

That is such an important question, and it's one that we've really been trying to disentangle. When we've run our studies, you are right that we have seen some what we call bidirectional effects. So it kind of goes both ways, but actually we've been saying, well, which way is strongest? And actually we tend to see that actually arts engagement has more of an influence on future mental health than the other way round. And actually there are lots of ways that we can also say, well, if you currently don't have depression, for example, then is your arts engagement going to be related to the future risk of depression? So therefore, we know that it's not simply your current depressive symptoms. And basically, through using lots of different statistical methods, we've actually been able to demonstrate that it is the arts engagement that is predicting future risk of depression, even when we've taken account of those bidirectional effects.

I understand that some of this research has also looked at the idea that the arts might help us to to hold off cognitive decline. Explain this idea to me and tell me about the work you've done here.

So when we engage in the arts, we're really giving our brains quite an effective whole brain workout. We're involving so many different regions of the brain that might be involved in the visual processing of sheet music, for example, or the motor response that's required, or the memory, or the emotions that are being activated. And what we've seen through a lot of studies now is that when people are regularly engaged in the arts, it actually supports their cognition. develop increased cognitive functioning. And we can see this evident in neuroimaging studies that have shown increases in the size and connectivity between different brain regions when people engage regularly in the arts. But we can also see this over time. As people get older, those who've got more regular patterns of arts engagement actually have better preservation of their cognition. And in fact, they even tend to have younger brain ages. We can estimate someone's brain age based on how their brain is connecting and the patterns of connectivity across brain regions. And people who are amateurs or professionals, their brains actually are younger as they get older compared to their chronological age. So that's on average about 5 to 7 years younger as they head into older adulthood, their brains are. And actually, we've seen that this is related as well to a delayed onset of the symptoms of dementia. Because with dementia, even if your brain is starting to accumulate some of the plaques that are typical of conditions like Alzheimer's disease, People who've got higher levels of what we call cognitive reserve, they're actually able to compensate for longer. So, their brains are able to adapt and deal with it so that they don't show the outside symptoms of dementia until later on. And what we seem to be finding through lots of different studies now is that arts engagement is helping to build that cognitive reserve so that people, even if they start to develop dementia, they can manage cognitively far better for longer.

In some ways, there's an analogy here with physical health. So if you're very healthy, if you're strong and you go through a period of decline, you have longer to go before you get incapacitated because you have more muscle to start with, more cardiovascular health to start with. And you're making the same case really for what happens in our minds. The more we practice certain things, the more we develop a craft, a skill, a mental ability, a cognitive ability, this gives us reserves that help You know, stave off decline for longer periods of time.

That's essentially right as a metaphor. But there used to be a kind of craze about, well, could we do this through brain training apps, like games you would do on your phone that would like build that cognitive function? But actually, when the big studies of this came out, the results weren't that impressive because there was a kind of realization that those games are only practicing one cognitive function at a time. But this is where arts really has the upper hand because when you're engaging in the arts, you've got so many different cognitive processes. that are being activated by that engagement, that, that whole brain workout that I spoke about. And that's why I think the arts are such an exciting opportunity for supporting our brains as we get older.

Across many years of research, scientists like Daisy have been building evidence to prove that engagement with the arts can make a real difference. When we come back, how to bring the arts into our daily lives and reap all the riches Also, in our companion story to this episode, available exclusively to subscribers to Hidden Brain Plus, we dive deeper into the role of the arts in medicine. If you're a subscriber, that episode is available right now. It's titled The Healing Arts. If you're not yet a subscriber, please go to support.hiddenbrain.org. If you're using an Apple device, please go to apple.co/hiddenbrain. Thanks for listening. You can get a free 7-day trial in both places, and you'll instantly have access to all our subscriber-only content. Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org or apple.co/hiddenbrain. You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Instagram. Instagram Teen Accounts' automatic protections limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Teens are automatically placed into Teen Accounts. Teens under 16 will need a parent's permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. Learn more about Teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at teenaccounts.instagram.com. Thanks for watching Hidden Brain. Support for Hidden Brain comes from Air France. Air France business cabin offers comfort throughout the journey with priority check-in, boarding, and lounge access. Onboard, enjoy menus from renowned French chefs, wines and champagne selected by a sommelier, and free high-speed Wi-Fi. When it's time to rest, settle into a fully adjustable lie-flat bed with added mattress comfort. The art of travel elevated, because Air France business cabin goes further in every detail to make your journey exceptional. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. Has this conversation stirred thoughts of encounters you've had with the arts? If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, or a question or comment about this Please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone. 2 or 3 minutes is plenty. Then email the file to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org. Use the subject line Arts. Again, that's feedback@hiddenbrain.org. Daisy Fancourt is a psychobiologist at University College London. She's the author of Art Cure: The Science of How the Arts Save Lives. Daisy, you say that a first step in accessing the benefits of the arts is to figure out how to add some aspect of the arts to our lives every single day. How do you advise people to do this?

I think it's great to think about this in the same way we think about our diet or our exercise. We used to target 10,000 steps a day or eat 5 fruit and vegetables a day or whatever. And I think having a simple rule like that is a really great way of starting. Now, For some people that might be 10 or 15 or 20 minutes that you are able to put aside. And there can be really easy ways of doing this, even sort of simple swaps that you can have in your life. So for example, one that I do is I have what I call a creative commute. So I can't, I live too far away to cycle or run to work, but when I'm on my train each day, I'm not allowed to scroll my phone. Instead, I use that time to sit and listen to music or to read my book. And that's a really easy way of making sure I get those minutes every single day.

You say that it's important to focus on consistency. So rather than trying to get 4 hours in one day and nothing for the rest of the week, it's more helpful to get 20 minutes every day?

If we're engaging regularly, it's much more likely to become a habit that sticks. So you're much more likely to find that you don't just cancel that one day and then realize it's been a couple of weeks since you did everything. everything. But it also means you can be getting those benefits day to day. And lots of the immediate benefits people get from arts engagements are for things like stress and for mood. And those are things that we can all benefit from having the little pick-me-ups embedded in our day-to-day lives. And we also see that a lot of the evidence about the long-term benefits is really focused on sustainability of engagement. So having something that you do as a habit for months or years of your lives, if you really want to be supporting things like brain health, for example, as you get older, or the reduced risk of developing various mental and physical health conditions. So I think it's really great to find that daily dose that's achievable for you.

You know, some people struggle to start an exercise routine, and they find it helpful to join an exercise class or maybe to get a trainer. And in some ways, perhaps the same is true when it comes to the arts?

I think it is true because some people are concerned that they're not artistic or creative enough, or they're not good at something. They haven't got the right skills. So, it can be really effective to start a hobby, an arts hobby, by joining a local group or by having a couple of lessons, a bit of instruction to get you going, or even using things like YouTube. So, you've got some videos or an online community for some support to get you going. And actually, for things that involve a certain level of skill to be able to really get the most of them. So, things like crafts activities or learning musical instruments. Literature now suggests that if you can do something for 50 hours, then actually you tend to have the level of skill that you can really fly with it on your own and really start to enjoy it and get into the flow of it. So that can be good for people to recognize that it might take a few weeks to feel like they're really comfortable with an artistic hobby. So to give themselves the time to have those experiences and build that level of comfort.

Intuitively, it seems to me that if you can do an arts activity with someone whom you like, a friend, It's a little bit like starting a workout routine with a friend. You're more likely to stick to it.

Definitely. And actually, there are some great ways you can do this in your lives. So in the UK, actually, we found there are lots of venues like pubs or bars that are now doing crafts evenings. So you can go alone, you can socialize with friends, but you can have that artistic focus. Or you can meet up with friends at a gallery or an exhibition as a way of having something to look at as well as that time to talk to each other. Something that I've heard of some couples doing now is instead of going for a date night dinner, actually going to watch a show or to go to a gig so that they're actually embedding those creative experiences with the social experiences that they've already made the time for in their diaries.

I want to go back to something that you mentioned a second earlier, because I think this is a real barrier for many people. You know, people say, I'm not musical, or I can't draw to save my life. Talk about this barrier, the sense of shame that we have about our own artistic abilities, especially compared to what we might see on social media of other people posting their accomplishments, how this is in some ways a barrier to us jumping into the water and trying something ourselves.

I think it's really a sign about how we as societies have sort of taken arts engagement and actually commodified it. We've sort of made it this object, this thing that you're supposed to be good at, or you have to feel like you've had had particular training to be allowed to do it. But just look back at young children, because when you look at children, all children sing, they dance, they make up stories, they act things out, they constantly draw or craft. They're not worried about whether they're good at it. They're really enjoying that experience. And all kids have got that innate creativity. So, I think it's really helpful to draw on children as inspiration and remind ourselves that a lot of the health benefits of the arts, actually come from doing it, not necessarily being good at it.

You say that just as we might plan our meals out, you know, that on some days we're going to eat in and some days we're going to go to a restaurant, we can do the same thing when it comes to the arts, that we can actually plan our artistic calendar.

I think that's a really great way of doing things. So that might be a case of seeing if there are some exhibitions or a festival coming up, or there are films that you really want to see, or that there are certain gigs or things you need to book tickets for. It's really great to put those things in the diary because as well as having the day-to-day daily dose of arts engagement that you might try and embed in your life, having things like that can bring really exciting novelty. They can give you different experiences that might give you feelings of awe or excitement. And they're also a really good way of making sure that we're just building those additional routines to increase that overall pattern of engagement that we get with the arts.

You said something important a second ago, which is that it's one thing to consume arts, going to a festival or going to an exhibition, watching a movie. It's another thing to be producing art. Talk about the difference.

Is there any evidence or research about the benefits of doing one or Well, if we think back about what ingredients we're getting when we're engaging with the arts, if we're watching something, we are being exposed to lots of different stimuli. But if we're doing it ourselves, we're getting further types of stimuli, often tactile stimuli, for example, which people can find very therapeutic. But also, if we're building our skills, that relates to those experiences of mastery that we've spoken about, or feeling of self-esteem or accomplishments that we can get through the arts as well. So a bit like the same way we try and have a variety of plants and vegetables in our diet, it can be really important to have a variety of arts experiences because they're all exposing us to different kinds of ingredients that have health benefits. And for some health conditions, it doesn't really matter whether you are receptively watching something versus actively participating. So for a lot of mental health outcomes, we actually see that both kinds of engagements have benefits just in slightly different ways for us.

Hmm.

But there are other experiences, other outcomes So things like outcomes relating to mobility or to pain, for example, we're actually having that active ingredient of participating is giving us additional sensory engagement and additional mechanisms that can actually support those health outcomes.

You recommend regularly changing up the kinds of arts that we engage in. I'm wondering why this is, Daisy. If you love something, why not just stick to it?

If you love something, then absolutely you can stick to it to a certain degree. But sometimes what people find is what we call the hedonic treadmill. If they're doing something that they enjoy, they can sometimes start to adapt to it, and it doesn't necessarily continue to bring exactly the same kinds of wellbeing benefits. So, people actually will often organically shift things up. So, for example, if you're someone that's really into crafts and you've been really enjoying doing a certain kind of knitting, for example, you actually might find that you're setting yourself different kinds of challenges, Or different patterns that you're trying to learn. But sometimes people can still find that it's good to mix things up and bring in a completely different type of arts hobby, because that can be a great way of exposing their brains to novelty, to sparking their imagination, and to perhaps making sure that whatever behavioural routines they've got in their lives keep that freshness and excitement to them.

I think many of us do engage with music or the arts, but we often do it as we're doing something else. So, you know, you're racing home from work, maybe you're on a train, you're playing some music, but you're also reading your email. It's one thing to listen to a beautiful piece of music with one ear and quite another to immerse ourselves completely in it. You talked a second ago about how when you are commuting home from work, you actually are devoting your full attention to the art that you're consuming. Talk about this, the importance of actually sitting and savoring and focusing on the art, not just doing it, you know, with one ear or one eye.

Yes. When we listen to music, for example, quite in the background, it can still be having some benefits for us, like reducing stress response, for example. But if it's not getting our full attention, we are not going to be getting the maximum impact from it. So, I think it's really important that we are consciously aware about how much we are passively engaging in the arts versus giving it that full attention. Because when we give it full attention, all of our emotional responses are heightened, our stress responses senses are heightened as well. And also, we've got a chance to really get into the flow of what we're doing. And if we can really get into that flow state, that feeling of complete absorption where we're forgetting everything else in our lives, it has profound benefits for our mental health. And it also has profound benefits for our brain health. It actually leads to synchronization between particular brain regions and enhances our overall attention as well.

So, I think it's really great that we can ensure that we are giving art time and space rather than just always relegating I'm thinking, Daisy, about how sometimes when I'm eating some dessert, if I actually take my time with it and linger over it and savor it, the dessert tastes 2 or 3 times as good as a dessert that I'm rushing through. And the same thing in some ways is true for art.

Absolutely. We get a much deeper appreciation and enjoyment from it. Essentially, all of our senses are heightened when we are giving ourselves time to enjoy something. ourselves that full attention on what we're doing. And we see things like increased dopamine release, so increased feelings of happiness if we're really focusing on the art.

A reminder, do you have a personal story about the effects of the arts in your life or the life of a family member? If you have a story you are willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience or a question or comment about this episode, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone, 2 or 3 minutes is plenty. Email it to us at feedback@hiddenbrain.org using the subject line Arts. Again, that's feedback@hiddenbrain.org. Daisy, I understand that you have come up with a number of ways to incorporate the arts into your own daily life. Paint a picture for me of what you've done.

One of the things that I've done in my life is I've tried to work out across the day, when am I most likely to be able to benefit from the arts? So I've often found that if I swap my alarm on my phone to a really calming piece of music in the mornings, That really subtle shift can completely change my mood when I first get up and how I'm starting my day. I've also found some of the times, like in the afternoon, when sometimes I have a bit of an energy dip, where I know that actually putting on some music can be a really great way of freshening up my mood, or it can be a great chance to actually take a little bit of a break from work and just help me to shake up that slump in the afternoon.

Mm-hmm.

I'm somebody that really loves to be sociable in the evenings, so I've really I've enjoyed being able to find ways of combining my socialising with also seeing friends as well. That's felt like a really nice way of not having to find more time, but being able to maximise the time that I do have to have those more meaningful experiences with people. And I've also deliberately across my week booked a couple of sessions in where I do things like a book club, or I'll go and try a new class or a taster session of something, because I find that that's another great way of keeping I'm wondering when you socialize with friends, you sometimes say that you skip having drinks or dinners and try and swap in an arts activity instead.

Can you paint me a picture of a time when you did this with some friends, Daisy?

I found recently that I've been meeting some friends at galleries or exhibitions that have been on, and it's a really great way to be catching up. But whilst you're looking around and able to think about and talk about the paintings as well, I also think it can be a really nice way, if you've got things you want to talk about with friends that are a little bit harder or more emotionally intense, to actually do something that's not just sitting opposite people at a dining table, for example, but actually somewhere where you've got a little bit of space and walking around galleries or listening to music that might be being performed in kind of public events. It can be a great way of actually giving yourself a little bit more time and focus to actually have some more difficult conversations.

Hmm. I was talking to a friend recently who told me that, you know, before she had kids, you know, she and her husband would go ballroom dancing multiple times a week. And of course, I'm reflecting now as I'm hearing you speak that in some that has so many different components of what you just talked about. You're listening to the music, you're dancing, you're social, you're being with someone. All of these things in some ways have profound benefits for us.

They do, and they're often much more memorable as events to do together than simply going out for a meal. And actually, we do know from a social bonding perspective that if we do arts with people, so if we sing or we dance with people, we actually become emotionally closer with them faster than if we just talk or if we exercise together. So it's a really lovely thing to do as well if people are forming new relationships or new friendships, because it can be an amazing icebreaker and, and a way of helping to facilitate the development of deeper connection.

Daisy Fancourt is a psychobiologist at University College London. She's the author of Art Cure: The Science of How the Arts Save Lives. Daisy, thank you so much for joining me today on Hidden Brain.

It's a pleasure.

Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristin Wong, Laura Querelle, Ryan Katz, Andrew Chadwick, and Nick Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. If you liked this episode, please think of a friend who might like it as well and share this episode with them. If they're new to Hidden Brain, they may also discover other episodes that are of interest. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon.

Hi, I'm Gabby Windy with Long-Winded, and I'm not gonna lie, I'm desperate. I'm desperate for your attention in any way possible, so listen to my podcast, won't ya? It has great insights, exceptional humor, and plenty of pop culture to fill your dark soul. And some even say it's a great way to fall asleep due to my soothing voice. And I don't take that personally. Fall asleep. A listen is a listen, even when you're sleeping. And a view is a view, even with your eyes closed. If you dare, and it doesn't take much gumption, enjoy! Listen to Long-Winded wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, it's me, your gutters.

Everything is totally fine. There's just a lot of debris up here, and I've been managing it mostly I just thought you could find someone on Angie to clean me up. I could really use it.

Your gutters have waited long enough. Find a pro at angie.com.

Traditional home security only alerts you after a break-in, and that's too late. SimpliSafe is changing that.

Stop!

This is SimpliSafe. Police are on the way.

We don't just alert, we help stop crime before it starts. Plans starting around $1 a day. Right now, get 60% off your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com/SXM. SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Outdoor deterrence plans start at $49.99 a month. Visit simplisafe.com/licenses for alarm license information.

Talk about regrets. We all know someone who's been in a car accident and said, I don't need to call a lawyer, only to regret it after their pain and damages were worse than expected. When someone hurts you, you deserve to be compensated fairly. Morgan& Morgan is America's largest injury law law firm fighting for the people for over 35 years. Injured? Visit forthepeople.com/podcast. That's forthepeople.com/podcast. Their fee is free unless they win.