Episode 026 - Copy That!, a conversation with Carmine Mastropierro

Have you ever been in a situation where you said something and then you were quickly corrected saying it wasn't what you said, but it was how you said it? Now, if you're a guy, you know this all too well. Well, today's episode, we're going to dive into copywriting, the do's and don'ts, what you should look for when hiring a copywriter, and all the points in between. It's going to be a great episode. Stay tuned. Let's get started. Welcome to the Content Amplification Podcast, where you will gain insight into real-life tactical and strategic elements to help you scale and grow your business. Now let's get started with today's episode. Welcome to this episode of the Content Amplification Podcast. Today's episode, we're going to be talking about copywriting. You know, that thing that we, we all really don't know how to do exactly as well as other people know how to do it, or at least we think we don't. And today's guest is Carmen Mastropiero. He is a professional copywriter. Based in Toronto. Thank you for being on the show.

Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

So this, like you heard in the opening copy, you know, every time I'm talking to different clients, whether it's a website project or social media, or even they want to start to put out, you know, an ebook, and I say the word, you know, how are you with writing your own copy? And they're like, this stare of fear comes over them. Today's episode, we want to get and pick your brain on really what should people be considering when doing their own copy? What should they be considering when it's time to actually hire a copywriter like yourself? And are there any tips you can give along the way? So my first question to you is, in your opinion, why is copy important in marketing?

For sure. Yeah, so copywriting is important because when you think about everything we do from The text messages we send out every day, the emails we send out, you know, creating content on social media. Like everything we do every day essentially is copywriting. You know, the ads you put out, you know, we were talking about before the podcast, you're doing Facebook ads. Everything consists of copy. And then if you don't really understand the strategies and the theory that goes into writing that generates ROI and action, then everything you write every day, it might be just kind of, you know, subpar or normal. It's not gonna get the results you want. So if you can really understand what good copy looks like, on one hand, you can actually write it yourself. And when I'm working with clients, you know, it might be like CMOs, marketing directors, people like that. Like you said, they're too busy and they don't really understand it. So that's why it's always good to outsource. But on the other hand too, if you understand copywriting, when you do go to hire a copywriter, you actually know what a good job looks like. Because if you don't really grasp copywriting, someone can hand you pretty much anything and you'll think it looks good.

So what would you say makes good copy?

Yeah, there's so many things that goes into good copy. I would say one is that it's emotional, because it's proven that, you know, even upwards to about 90% of the purchasing process is going to be emotionally based. You know, we're normally buying something, a product or a service, to experience some kind of feeling, get away from a pain point. And if the copywriter or yourself can really focus on the customer's pain point the, you know, experiences they're trying to have, the pain point they're trying to move away from, then it's gonna make them really harmonize with the ad. They're gonna resonate with it. They're gonna see that you understand them and you clearly get them 'cause you can write about it. But also you have some kind of product or service that's a solution. So whether you're writing it or you're hiring it, make sure that the copy is always really emotional-based from the headline all the way into the body and the call to action. And that's another thing too, is copy needs to be very practical and it needs to push people to do something. So you need storytelling, you need to focus on features and benefits and whatnot. But all throughout the messaging, whether it's a short Facebook ad or like a 10,000-word sales letter, you need to make sure that you're telling the reader what to do next. You know, you can use something called future pacing, which is telling them that, you know, in this sales page you're gonna learn XYZ. And then they know in the future of reading it what they're gonna get out of it. And then all throughout the sales page too, you could tell them that if you order this product, you're gonna gain these benefits, these features. And then also with copywriting, really good copy also is measurable. So it's really common to just throw some copy on an ad, on a web page, and then you don't end up measuring it. And, you know, you might see like revenue and conversions and have a general idea of how it did, but really what you need to do is make sure that you're setting up good tracking. It might be, you know, as simple as UTM links, which you can generate and then track through Google Analytics. You might use something like Heatmaps and Hotjar. But I would say overall it's gonna be very emotional. It's gonna push people to take action, but also you're gonna be able to measure it whether you do that yourself or ideally when you hire a writer, like in my case, if they do have the skill, then they can kind of set up all the tracking and analytics on your behalf too.

[Speaker:SHAUN] Now, how important would you say that the consistency across different platforms? I know if you've written copy for a website or for a landing page, and then the posts that go out, the ads that go out, I know that there should be a consistent tone and feel across that so there's no disconnect. How do you take that on when you're looking at working on someone's copy? Do you take different approaches to the web versus, or the website versus social or even scripting a video that they may have getting, or may be getting produced?

[Speaker:SHAUN WHYNATCHT] Yeah, you definitely have to adapt it to every channel. Like how you would talk maybe on Facebook is gonna be different than how you talk on Instagram or Twitter, or when you're writing copy for, like you said, an email, website, TikTok, anything. So when I'm working with a client, one of the first things I always ask for, because research is super important, I'm gonna ask for their buyer persona, their content guidelines, their branding guidelines. So I really wanna understand personally like how they like to present themselves to the world. And you know, I wanna see previous ads they've put out and then I kind of reverse engineer it and I understand their tone of voice, their personality. Their attitude and just how they present their brand and communicate to customers. And then whether that's documented or I have to kind of do some digging and, you know, make a document myself, I can pretty much start using that when I'm writing copy and always referencing back just to make sure I'm using the exact tone of voice, you know, certain words even, you know, when I'm studying a certain client, I might just notice that they have patterns of certain phrases. Maybe they use, you know, certain adjectives to describe their brand, like happy, playful, things like that. And then you can always reference it while you're writing. But yeah, you do definitely have to adapt it to every channel. So maybe on LinkedIn, of course, you're going to be more professional and you're going to be more, you know, authoritative and practical with your content. But on something like, you know, Twitter, TikTok, or Facebook, it might be more casual and use a lot more, you know, casual, laid-back, personal, almost like a friend speaking to a friend kind of copy. So I think it's very important to document it, or if you're a copywriter yourself, make sure that you're doing the research or ask the client for those branding guidelines and then just adapt it to every single channel.

There's a great, great advice there. Now, if somebody is listening and they, they, they want to up their game, they want to really, you know, go all in and market themselves online, you know, they may have written their own stuff on their website. What should they look at when it comes to actually hiring or finding a professional copywriter to work with? What are some of the things that that they should consider?

Yeah, I think one is to really niche down. So if you're maybe like a SaaS company, look specifically for SaaS copywriters. You know, if you're a startup, look for startup copywriters. If you're a lawyer, go find those legal writers because you can take, you know, someone who has worked in a lot of different niches and like they'll probably be very, very good, but it's always nice to find someone that's worked in your exact niche because then they understand your exact goals, your exact problems. They can study the competitors a bit better, and they have that edge over the average copywriter, even if they're really good. So I'd always try to niche down. And one of the best places to find people when you have niched down is it's gonna be a good Google search. You know, look for SaaS copywriter, you know, legal copywriter, startup copywriter. And a lot of the best writers, in my opinion, typically aren't gonna be on the, like, the freelance networks. They're gonna have their own brand, their own website, their own social presence, and that's how you're probably gonna find them. You can also go through your network as well. You know, most businesses will probably have in-house copywriters or have outsourced before. So you can kind of get that, you know, word of mouth or referral train going and then find people that are really good that way. And then once you do find someone, you know, let's say you're on their website, you know, their social media, a big thing is testimonials and case studies. It's always nice to see that someone has vouched for them and they're another business owner just like you and they're looking to hire somebody 'cause you wanna spend your money and you wanna get, you know, your money's worth. So testimonials and those case studies are great 'cause you get the social proof, but the case studies also show you down to, you know, the conversions, the revenue, the leads, exactly what they've generated for another business. So I'd always look for those as well or ask for them. Some writers don't have them just, you know, planted right on the website. You just have to shoot them an email and say, "Hey, do you have any case studies in our industry?" And they'll probably give you some. And then also when you do begin working with them, I wouldn't just, you know, find them, throw in a contract and start working. It's always good to do some kind of onboarding and trial. And I think when a writer, you know, proposes this right away and that's a part of their onboarding, says a lot about them. I think that's really professional and high-end. It speaks to them. So when you do the onboarding and some kind of trial, you know, maybe you're just gonna have them write a single webpage, a single blog post, and just take note of everything. Like how do they work? What's their communication like? Do you guys use a similar, you know, tech stack like Google Drive and Slack and Trello? Do you guys find that the communication isn't good, that, you know, it isn't really matching what they said they were gonna do? You know, obviously when you're on the sales call, discovery call as well, make sure you're asking them, like asking them how much they charge, how they like to work, what their deadlines are like and deliverability. But, you know, make sure that overall you're niching down. You're definitely trying to find those case studies and testimonials so you know that they're as good as they say they are. And then when you actually begin working, just start with some kind of trial period, onboarding period. So you're not just signing a, you know, a big contract and you're locked in for something big and kind of see that, okay, you know what, our personalities and our workflow and everything matches first before we do some kind of big commitment.

Now, what would somebody expect to invest when, when getting into copywriting or getting a copywriter? I know that's probably a tough question, but how would they know that, you know, they're getting a, you know, a fair price?

Yeah, for sure. So I think when it comes to something like, let's say the content writing side, which is like something like what I would do, that's normally just on a monthly basis, monthly retainer. You guys would map out like, okay, we're gonna do 4 blog posts a month, 1 a week. They're gonna have this kind of deliverables, SEOs included, so on and so on. And you know, like you said, it's hard to say 'cause it's based on the individual writer. But honestly, I think like most things in business, whether it's a writer, if you're hiring someone to design a website, you get what you pay for in a lot of cases. And in, you know, my case, not only as a copywriter, but someone that actually hires junior writers, I see it all the time. You know, if you wanna hire for cheap, you're probably gonna get someone that still has a lot of refining to do. They're not gonna be as good as someone that charges a premium. So for maybe content, if you're looking for someone good, you know, you're gonna spend probably a couple thousand dollars a month, maybe like $2,000, somewhere in that range on the minimum side, I think, for really good content. And then when it comes to direct response copy, you know, getting those sales pages written, sales letters, emails, webpages, you're probably gonna be paying, you know, at least, you know, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000 just for like a single project. And once again, always ask like what they charge and how they like to work and use that as kind of an estimate. And you know, there's a few different ways you can essentially get billed by a writer. You're gonna have what I mentioned with the content monthly basis. So they're delivering XYZ for you every single month. And then you have per project, which is normally when it's very defined. Maybe you need like a, you know, 10-page website written with this many words per page and so on, then they'll probably just charge you like one fee, probably 50% upfront, 50% after, maybe 100% upfront in some cases. And then for something like editing or these projects where it's not super defined and, you know, you need to kind of define it as you go, then they'll probably charge it per hour. And I think for like an entry-level copywriter, they might charge $25, $50 an hour. But don't be surprised if someone's billing you $100, $150 an hour, because a lot of the times you're gonna get an amazing ROI. And it goes back to what I was talking about with the measuring and the analytics. You don't wanna just throw copy up on a website or an email. You wanna make sure that you can measure it. So have your tracking good. Make sure you're tracking all of your goals in Google Analytics and you have those set up. Make sure you have UTM links. Make sure you're using Google's Tag Manager, which lets you essentially tag buttons and links all over your funnel. Assign them values, and then we kind of look at all of your analytics. It's like, okay, well, we can see how these pages generated X revenue. We got these conversions and click-through with these pages and with these emails, and then you're actually able to see the ROI. But with something like content writing, it can be a bit more difficult and long-term because, you know, with SEO content, it's all about the long-term strategy, compounding traffic, compounding keywords. And with that, it's a lot more difficult. You need, once again, kind of the UTM and everything. You're gonna need a good funnel, lead magnets, and be able to track, you know, from top, middle, and bottom of the funnel. How much traffic are we getting? How many leads is that generating for us? Presuming that the, whether you have lead magnets or the writer set the funnel up for you, and then how many, you know, like consultations or demos or trials are those converting into, and then having the actual value on those as well. So it really just takes a lot of tracking and analytics. So as a writer myself, it's always a blessing when this is set up for me, but it is something that I can set up too. A lot of writers will do it for you, but just make sure before you launch any kind of campaign, content or copy related, you do have those analytics set up. It really helps out a lot.

Well, Carmen, it's definitely clear that you know exactly what you're talking about, and obviously you've been doing this for years. So just before we get near the end of the show, Let's talk a bit about how you got into this. Where did your writing journey begin?

Yeah, so I think like a lot of entrepreneurs can relate. Honestly, it goes back to childhood, you know. I was definitely the kid, um, you know, selling trading cards and candy. I was doing the lemonade stands. And even though like when you're that age you can't really describe it as business, it was just, you know, I love selling and just kind of working with people and just making money. So I think the entrepreneurial spirit started really young with me. And then as I got older, I was always really good with computers and tech. So then I started learning about digital marketing, making money online, and started kind of hitting me like, okay, you can actually do this and make money and make a living on the internet. And then that's when I started studying internet marketing in high school. And I started doing a bunch of different things. I was doing e-commerce with dropshipping and white label. I was doing affiliate marketing near like the end of high school, getting into college. And then of course freelance as well. And I was doing freelance writing, web design, social media, kind of like I was talking about before. You know, I was a bit of a generalist. I was kind of just doing everything. And then once I got more into college, I actually decided to niche down, really focus on writing because it's just one, what I enjoy. I think it's super important to, you know, have a business every day that you look forward to and that you're excited to do because then that just makes your day-to-day life awesome. But also you put more energy into the work and then your clients get more value and better results. And then I kind of cut out everything else. I just wanted to focus right on writing. And that's when I launched one of my first agencies. And I've owned a couple of them. And then it wasn't until, you know, about 2, 3 years ago that I completely pivoted to a personal brand. And I'm really happy I did that because it allows me to have a lot more relationships, deeper relationships with my clients. I was really surprised by the amount of people that love working just with like a freelancer or someone that kind of has that freelance brand. They like to have the human connection, one-on-one connection with who they work with. And then when I doubled down on writing, you know, a lot of it was outreach and networking and, you know, doing a lot of inbound marketing. I love blogging. Uh, lately I've been doing a lot of like podcasting and YouTube. I do a lot of guest authoring on big websites. Uh, recently I put out an article on marketingprofs.com, which I was super stoked about. That was awesome. And then over time it was like, okay, I'm able to work with Neil Patel, Dan Lok, Marketo, GoDaddy. And it was a really, you know, gradual long-term compounding effect where I just got better and better by practicing writing, by getting better assignments, bigger clients. And then you do a good job, you deliver value, and then you're gonna get really good referrals. And then in the case of copywriting, you know, there's not many really good copywriters out there. There's not a lot of, you know, copywriters maybe in specific little niches like digital marketing. So when I got better and better,, you know, people are referring me to bigger companies and other, you know, large organizations in the niche I'm in. And then it kind of just compounded from there. And now nowadays I'm doing, like I said, doing work for Dan Lok and Marketo. I do a lot of C-suite, Forbes ghostwriting. I have free and paid online courses that teach people how to write better and grow their own online writing business. But I would say that it honestly just, you know, started from childhood and I just kind of worked at it all throughout my life.. And then lately I've been really doubling down on just the, the copywriting and content writing side.

Well, that's, that's a great journey. I mean, that's, that's very inspirational to anyone, even if you're starting out in copywriting or even in business. Cause I mean, what you've told us is basically a business journey in there. And, and you know, the part about, you know, transitioning from an agency brand to a personal brand, when you decided to do that, I want to ask you this, was there some hesitation about going that route or did you know that this was the route you needed to go?

Yeah, I think I hesitated just a little bit because you kind of go from this more like corporate image and everything to pretty much everything's on you. You know, like you have to be completely transparent. It's your name, it's your face. But in a way it's really good because it puts a lot of responsibility and accountability on your plate. Like you can't do anything wrong. You really have to deliver. You have to go above and beyond. You gotta stick to your word and everything.. And I think it just makes you take your reputation and everything more seriously. So at first I definitely hesitated a little bit, but I'm, I'm really happy I did it because it's just opened up a lot of more, uh, uh, opportunities. You know, when people see my brand and it's, you know, my name, my face, they get that kind of human connection, deeper connection, especially when they end up working with me. And I've noticed, um, kind of an interesting thing that my engagements tend to go a lot longer. I develop more friendships with the people I work with. So it's definitely paid off in the long term. It's also opened up to more public speaking opportunities. And I think it just makes sense when I'm selling books or courses and things. It just makes a lot more sense to kind of sell it through me, not necessarily a company. But overall, I'm really happy I did it.

Well, thank you for sharing your story, sharing the tips, talking about copywriting. Where can people find you if they want to talk to you or hire you for doing some copy or training or whatever it is that they need help with?

Yeah, honestly, the best way to find me and just learn more about what I do, get courses and whatnot, is on my website, carmenmastropiero.com. But I'd more than love if you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook. I have a copywriting Facebook group you can join and ask questions, but those would be the best ways to find me right now.

Well, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. That was Carmen Mastropiero. He's a professional copywriter based in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. If you're listening outside of our wonderful country. And, uh, thanks for listening to this episode of the Content Amplification Podcast. Thanks for listening to the Content Amplification Podcast. If you have questions about how you can amplify your content strategy, go to AmplifyMyContent.com.