Episode 034 - Whynacht Interview the Host

Well, in all the episodes of this podcast, This Has Never Happened, where I became the guest. Now, why did this happen? We'll talk about that in just a moment when we start the show, but this was a great experience. Jodi was able to ask me a ton of questions about my marketing journey and how I came to be where I'm at today with Blue Cow Marketing. And it was just, it was exciting, it was fun, and hopefully you get some value out of listening to this episode. I will tell you, we're about 40-some minutes in length, but anyway, Let's take a listen right now. And we're back. It's episode number 34, and today we are able to pivot. We actually had a great guest lined up who had to reschedule at the last minute, about 15 minutes before we were going to record. But you know what, we're going to stick to creating content. I think in business, that's one of the things that you need to do is when you commit to doing a podcast or a blog or whatever, no matter what comes up, make sure that you have content coming out. And Jodi had a great idea that she wants to actually interview me. So I'm going to be stepping away from the microphone as the primary host, and I'm going to be the guest of today's episode. So I'm handing it over to you.

As usual, my goal was to put you on the spot. So again, no idea what the questions are.

I've not seen any of them other than she has 3 pages.

I did. She held them up before we went to— That was just scary though. Yeah.

It's actually her letter to Santa, but—

All right. So I guess as we start all guest interviews with, you should give us a little bit of a background where you started and what you do.

Absolutely. And you know what? That's probably a good point because most people that have started to listen to this podcast from the get-go, I may have alluded to a little bit, but I've never actually given the full background to where I've started. So my actual training, my professional training is in broadcasting. So radio and television production. I specialized in TV production. And right out of school, I knew I wanted to run my own business. I actually had a business in high school. As a DJ at the age of 17. So, I was familiar with business. It was, you know, business was in the family. My grandfather had his own TV repair shop. My mom had a craft store in the house. When my grandmother retired as a bakery manager, we converted that craft store into a cake shop. So, it was something I was very familiar with and was very easy for me to be attracted to that kind of lifestyle. So, taking that training and then turning it into video production and then obviously evolved into marketing, doing a lot of marketing marketing productions along the way. You know, over the years, and you know, it's well over 20 years, I am feeling old, but it's evolved. There's been a lot of change from, you know, getting into learning photography to web design, and then, you know, doing aerial photography and aerial video. So there's always been evolution, and now, you know, more focus on the digital marketing. And I think that was You know, something that was important to me was being able to have a business that could flex and change. I love change. We talked just before we recorded how I was actually rearranging my office, and that was something that I've always done, you know, right from a kid, is always needed to have change. And I don't think if I was in a, in a business where I was doing the exact same thing for 20 years, like rinse and repeat, that I would have made it 20 years and still have been enjoying what I'm doing.

Well, yeah, that's something that, you know, even just being here just over a month now, something I've, you know, noticed and even mentioned to you is how this job is, you know, better than anything I could have imagined because, you know, I'm getting to dip my hands in every little thing, you know, web design, there's graphic design, social media management, you know, uh, speaking with clients like personal sales. There's everything. So I can definitely see where you're coming from in the idea that you would be the type of person who would be kind of bored easily if you didn't have all those different aspects to your business, for sure.

Absolutely. I mean, and the industry has changed, you know, over 20 years, obviously. And, you know, the way that people engage with businesses has changed. So If you are a business and you're reluctant to change, you don't want to, you're probably not going to stick around too much longer because the market is going to push you out because you're not willing to flex and grow and change with that.

As you mentioned, it's really important for you to be able to adapt and change your business. But say you were in the position where you, you know, were really interested in videography, but, you know, you had to make that change to marketing because you saw that that was what you know, what people needed. But what if you hadn't have made that change or you were very reluctant to make that change because marketing wasn't in your interest? You know, kind of what advice would you give to those people who don't really, don't really want to make that change?

Absolutely. And I think there's two different types of changes. You know, there's the, the horizontal change where was what I kind of done where I've changed by, you know, the different types of services and things that I've done. So I've switched horizontally across that way. But there's also that vertical change where if you, you know, let's use video for example. If I was dead set coming out of school that video was the only thing I wanted to do, the video industry has changed, right? I could still be in just doing video, but what I'm producing is different than what I was producing 20 years ago. So you can still stay in your, your silo or your niche or your area of, of expertise that you want to do. You just become better at it and you learn what's new in that industry. You don't have to jump to a different kind of niche or genre, you know, and go horizontally. You can stay vertically and really, you know, narrow down that focus a bit more. And you know, there are people that want to always stay ahead of the curve and they're going to study what's happening, you know, in the Southwest, you know, down Arizona, California, because those trends move across and come up here to— you know, we're on the East Coast of Canada. But you know, you could be listening to this anywhere. But you know, that's why South by Southwest from technology side, it was a major conference of where technology and marketing and everything digital is and where people look at because that's what's trending. Now, I mean, if you're a mechanic, maybe you're studying what's coming out in new vehicles down the road. Because that's going to be important. We had a client who was in the vehicle detailing industry. He did all of his training in the U.S. because they were on the top of what was new. And in the U.K., those trends come over. So, you can become very good at changing and evolving in that one area. You don't have to change different areas. So, that's what I would say is look at what you want to do. If you want to change and bring on a wider scope of work that you do, then obviously you can move horizontally and try, you know, try to do other things. But if you don't want to, then figure out how can you change with what's trending or, you know, if you really want to be a go-getter, what can you develop that has never been done? Right. Can you do something that nobody has ever done and make it part of that industry and be that trendsetter?

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's a perfect transition into the next question, talking about, you you know, the trends and how most industries now are those types where they're so fast-paced and ever-changing just because of, you know, that technology aspect. But especially in the marketing industry, you know, we often refer to ourselves as forever students because there's always new software. There's always new, you know, think about even 20 years ago, was social media, you know, as large of a factor as it is in today's, you know, marketing efforts. So are there any tips you have for especially small business owners or entrepreneurs who, you know, their primary focus might not be those marketing trends, but what if, you know, they are still the marketing manager for their own business? You know, how are they going to stay up to date with that?

Well, I mean, the biggest thing that I see every day, and I fall victim to this too myself, is not allocating time to look for these things. You know, the reality is this stuff is not going to be handed to you. It's not going to come knocking on your door and say, oh, here's the things you need to do next year to be on top of everything. You know what, the time, if you don't put it aside to do it, the time you're going to hear about them is when they've passed you, right? And your competition has done that. So I think the biggest tip has been Allocate some time whether it's monthly or weekly, maybe just a half an hour or whatever. And just go online and start to search and see what's happening. Look for people in your industry in the US, in the UK. See what they're talking about. Find some blogs. There's obviously industry blogs. There's industry groups on LinkedIn. There's a ton of resources. I mean, you could get your entire master's in business just online without actually going to university because all the information is there. You just have to go and search for it and take that time. The second part, which is equally as important, is the time you set aside for that. Make sure that you're not distracted by other things. So it's not, you know, when you're running between meetings, you're going to like, you know, sit in the parking lot and look through your phone for that because you're thinking about what's coming up. You need to have that time to ingest it and then digest it. So You know, if you're going to start to, to research some things you want to do or even is impacting your, your industry in the future, make sure you have some time after that to just, you know, let it sink in. Um, and it will actually work. I mean, it will get you thinking. It's a, it's a routine, it's a muscle memory exercise. Um, and it will be beneficial to you. Yeah.

Speaking on that, uh, time management piece, I remember in a lecture, I can't remember what course it was for, we were talking about the top 5 reasons small businesses fail. And I was so surprised because one of the major reasons was like time management and, you know, managing, you know, your family life, your personal life with your business life. And, you know, a lot of times entrepreneurs want to do everything themselves. Like it was kind of that concept, which was really surprising to me. I, you kind of don't think of it as as something so simple for why your business would fail.

And there's really, you know, when you look at the tasks that you do every day, and this is an exercise that individual business owners should do, and if they have a team that has managers and so forth, they should actually get their team to look at doing this too, is list out everything that you do, right? Like an entire week or even a month, every task you do, and then start to classify them as Does this task have a direct impact on revenue into the business? If it's yes, then, you know, mark it as an A or a 1 or whatever the case. The second thing is, does this task potentially impact revenue into the business? And thirdly, does this task, you know, have no impact on it? Is it just something that, you know, it has to be done, but if it wasn't done, it's not gonna impact the business, but it has to be done anyway? Those number 3 tasks, Delegate those, get somebody else to do that. The number 1 or the A tasks, yeah, absolutely. If you want to, you know, keep that business growing, you should put all your focus or most your focus on those ones. And then the middle ones, you can start to say, okay, can I delegate that or do I want to keep them? And those are important because you'll start to look at, you know, the ones that you're spending a lot of time doing are most likely the ones that aren't directly impacting, you know, revenue into the business, right? We can get distracted down a rabbit hole. You know, for me, bookkeeping is never something I enjoy doing. It's something I have to do. But, you know, me going in and reconciling my accounts every quarter, you know, is not making me money. It's actually costing me money to do it because I could be doing other revenue-generating tasks like talking to clients or, you know, doing actual billable work. And so forth. So that is a task that outsourcing is extremely important to do, um, as well, right?

So that's kind of the business side of things. Now, talking about personal life, you obviously have a very, very sweet boy, Cameron. But as with, uh, any young boy, he's definitely a handful, right? So what advice would you give to those entrepreneurs who are really struggling with that kind of, you know, balancing their, their work life and all their career goals and aspirations with that family life and the kids aspect?

You know, there's a lot of talk and it's been like this for years about you got to find this work-life balance. And, you know, in reality, you can't balance it. There's no real balance between the two. No, it's a work-life integration and you need to like integrate that life into the business. And this is my opinion. I mean, if you're listening to this and you have a different one, you're open to that and neither one of them are right or wrong. But this is the— what I've experienced with it is I've made the conscious decision to integrate my lifestyle of business into my life with Cameron. So, anything that he can see me doing that's business-related or talking to them and he's homeschooled now because of our lockdown. So, I made a decision to put a small desk in my office for his homeschooling. And we have a place to go to. And he calls it his office and his work. And I want him to really get a grasp of that. That work ethic and mentality behind it. And he's slowly learning that. But to be honest, it is challenging. I mean, there are times where, you know, the stress level goes up because you have a meeting coming up, you know, and you're trying to clean up the office behind you that has just been blown up because he spent the last half hour tearing it apart. Right. But, you know, in the current times we're in right now, you know, people are a little more open to that being the norm.

Yeah.

You know, if you had done this back in 2018 and people were like, yeah, I'm going to Zoom chat you for a meeting and, you know, you're in your living room, people are going to be like, how professional is this company? But the reality is that's what we're in now. And that level of what we expect, you know, has come down for, you know, what the appearance should be. But, you know, if you like, you know, the challenge of it, then that's something that you'll definitely get out of it. But there are people out there that the 9 to 5, Monday to Friday is what they love. Running a business is not a 9 to 5, Monday through Friday job, right? It is probably sometimes more than 24 hours. You know, it's hard to turn it off. And the other side too is, you know, you've got— if you've got children, but it's also hard to manage relationships too. You know, your relationships with family members, relationships with spouses and partners, especially if they don't understand that lifestyle. You know, if you are a real true entrepreneur to the heart, you can't turn that off. Like you are always thinking about your business. That is what you are to the core. And you just need to embrace that and let it just be part of who you are. Right. And, you know, if you do that, you know, don't be ashamed of it. You know, it makes, you know, make sure that you're always talking it out and, and, you know, let everybody know that that's really who you are and it's hard to change away from that.

Yeah, no, I definitely like that concept, integration over balance.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because balance seems to be one or the other, right? Like, if you look at a scale, it's like, okay, I'm either on the left side or I'm on the right side. I'm either It's family hat time or it's business hat time. And really, you're wearing both hats at all times. It's just a matter of managing it in a way that it doesn't take away from the other one.

It's kind of like how our last guest spoke about how you can't truly be yourself if you're putting on a face for your PR efforts versus on your social media. You kind of just have to be yourself wherever you are. And that's, that really is the key to not only, you know, having a successful business, but also being happy, right?

Yeah. Because there are people that, that I'll go into a Zoom meeting with, you know, on the business side, and Cameron will walk in the room and they'll be like, oh, hey, Cameron. And they know him because they were friends on Facebook and they see the stuff. So what they see professionally is exactly who I am personally. It's not, you know, one or the other.

Yeah, no, that's definitely important. Um, we were also talking about, uh, how, how difficult it can be as an entrepreneur, and you mentioned that still to this day, after even, you know, 20 years of trying to find this perfect integration over balance, you still have your challenges and, you know, it can still be difficult at times. So I'm wondering if there was ever a time, even when you were very early on in your kind of entrepreneur journey, if there was a time you came close to kind of calling it quits, or if you kind of almost gave up on yourself?

Absolutely. This was about 3 years ago. You know, I was at the point where, you know, I was going project to project. And, you know, I was watching what was happening online. So following other entrepreneurs, you know, in the US on social media and, you know, they're posting all this like, you know, hey, you know, we close all these deals and we're on these vacations and doing all this kind of stuff. And I fell victim to that, that, you know, I'm judging 90% of my life on the 10% of their life that they're only showing online. Right. And that's one of the biggest things you need to avoid is what people are showing online. In most cases, when you're like, wow, they have this amazing life, you're only seeing that 10% that is like the positive stuff. And some of that is even fake, right? It's been, you know, you know, in the marketing world, people rent, you know, time in a jet to take their photos like, hey, I'm in my private jet. It's not theirs. It's a photo shoot. And that's, you know, something you fall apart with. But, you know, there was the stress of life and going month to month and following those different, you know, trying to find the next project. And if you do it alone, it's even harder because, you know, if you sell services and you focus on trying to get new clients, then you have to fulfill on that. So when you're fulfilling, you're not selling. So you've got this constant ebb and flow of work. So I, I was like, you know, I had enough of this. And I did a final post out online to a group that I was in and saying, hey, does anyone, you know, want somebody or need somebody to help them with their software? It was with Infusionsoft at the time. And somebody I knew said, hey, you know, I'm actually looking for, for someone to to help us with this. And I went on full-time with them as a contractor, obviously. So basically my business of going project to project with multiple clients, I was down to one client and I was doing that and did that for about 13 months. And I just, it didn't, it wasn't a fit for me. And it took that chance of having to experience it to realize that no, this is what I'm— this is my true north, right? You know, there are ways to do things better and more effectively. And since then, I've been able to get better balance with everything. You know, bringing you on board into the team was, was a decision that I was like, you know what, this is the time that I need to do this. There are elements of the business that I'm not as strong in. And, you know, you are much more stronger in, you know, the social side of things. You know, the strategy and more of the marketing automation and the system integrations, that's my, like, I love that. I can do that in my sleep day in and day out. But sitting, you know, and coming up with social posts and things, it's not me. And it's starting to actually start to gain its own legs and move in the business. And I'm starting to feel like it's finally a business. And, you know, if you're listening to this, you probably had that feeling. You're like, I don't feel like I'm actually like it's a business, right? It just feels like I'm just struggling and just trying to do this, and I give the government taxes every month and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, occasionally people pay me, but the reality is it doesn't feel like a business because you're in it kind of feeling all the pains of it. So I know that was a long answer to it, but that's really the, you know, I guess I've been through it, right? That's the reality.

Yeah. So looking back at yourself 3 years ago, and if there's any kind of listeners or business owners who are at that point right now, what is the single best advice you can give them?

The single best advice I can give them for that scenario is something that I wish I would have done. And the reason that I was like I wanted to jump ship was because I didn't have any kind of buffer to just step back and start to reevaluate and rebuild some things. You know, it was going— when you're going month to month,, you know, and the revenue you bring in is paying all your bills and that kind of stuff, you don't have time to like take like a month off, right? And just be like, I need to just decompress and figure out what I want to do. So start taking, you know, a portion of your revenue and just storing it away. You know, hear that, you know, put them, you know, put the money away for a rainy day and all that kind of stuff. You need to have that at least to cover your bills, you know, at minimum for, for a month. Ideally, it would be 3 so that if you get to that point where you're starting to feel burnt out and you don't really know what your direction is, you have that to fall back on and be like, you know what, I'm going to put— pump the brakes, I'm going to stop and I'm going to like, you know, go away for a week or whatever and just focus on what do I really want to do in the business and not have that stress that, oh, I can't make my mortgage payment next month. Right. Because you have that safety fund. I'm there to do it. And I think that's going to be something that, that would be extremely important for people.

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I know for sure you're saying a month off and people who are used to or who are comparing it to, you know, regular 9 to 5 hours are probably like, what the heck, like a month? But you can't compare them, right? Because if you're talking about an entrepreneurial lifestyle, you're not getting weekends, you're not getting nights off, right? So at the end of the day, a month off is nothing really for an entrepreneur who's been working basically like you said, 24/7.

Yeah, in 20 years, I've never taken 2 weeks off. I've never done a 2-week vacation. I've done 10 days, um, but reality is mentally I was not fully off. I was always worried, you know, you know, you know, is everything being taken care of? And it was only me. There was nobody here to manage incoming calls, and I was like, you know, trying not to check email and all that kind of stuff. And, um, you know, it takes a couple days to get in that routine of being away, to start to fully, like, get relaxed. But those first couple days are tough, especially if you've never done it before. Yeah.

And that actually, that's a topic that we're talking about discussing in later episodes or in a later blog, the whole creative process. Right. And, you know, even the multiple studies that have been done in, you know, saying that stress equals basically total lack of creativity. You know, you, you can't be in a creative mindset if you also have that added stress and pressure. So, you know, the return on your investment of taking a month off might be that you have a completely, you know, brilliant, innovative idea for how to run your business, or even just a new perspective, right?

So yeah, you know, every year up until the last 2 years, um, because of the, you know, the pandemic, Every summer I would go around for the last, I guess, 7 years and shoot videos in all 4 Atlantic provinces for one client. And that would give me time. I think it was about 15 hours of driving through New Brunswick, PEI, and then I'd fly to Newfoundland to do all that kind of stuff. A lot of time alone in a vehicle with just myself and my thoughts. That was amazing. That like the ideas of what I could do next in business, the ideas of, hey, this client should try this. That's when they came to me. It wasn't when I was hopping from meeting to meeting or, you know, going on a lunch because I had to be back by 1 o'clock. You're too pressured, you're too rushed to even just have that sense of clarity. And I don't think your brain has the ability to get into that creative layer when you have top-of-mind things that you're trying to, to juggle as well.

Yeah, and people really don't like hearing that as the solution because it sounds so counterproductive, right? It's like, uh, what, what my mind is going to is when the hairdresser tells you if you want to grow your hair out about you gotta cut it. I know you wouldn't know about that, Shaun. I know, I was waiting for the ball joke. Yeah. But yeah, so it sounds so counterproductive, but it really is what you need to get that true benefit of that creativity and innovation.

Yeah, and that's why when you hire a creative agency or a copywriter or a designer and you look at it and be like, wow, that's like, they're pricey. It's because they need the time to come up with those ideas. You know, if somebody can say, okay, I can, you know, design you a brochure for like $50, right? Basically, it's a template. Somebody else has come up with a design already. It's not going to be unique. They're just basically filling it in. But if you want like a true clarity of I want something unique, I want something that's going to resonate, and I want, you know, I'm not good writing and I need a copywriter to write these emails or this landing page. The reason it is pricey is because they need to allocate the time to think, to brainstorm, to come up with designs, reiterate those designs before you actually even see it.

Yeah, and that's kind of the problem with where we're headed this day. Everything is, you know, basically the same, even the cookie-cutter houses, you know, like there's the templates, there's a technology to build it yourself. And so people are getting used to those prices that are, um, you know, not realistic for somebody who actually wants genuine, um, you know, handmade, time-consuming content, right? Yep. Yeah. All right, so another question I had was, um, have you faced any stereotypes or kind of misconceptions about the marketing industry throughout your career?

I don't know if it was a stereotype but it's more of a misunderstanding when people come to us and over the years and they judge what marketing is compared to what advertising is. So, when you say, what have you done to market your business? And they say, well, I run ads in the newspaper. I'm on the radio. I'm like, well, that's Advertising, that is a part of your marketing, but it's not marketing. It's like marketing is what, what feeling do you want your clients to have when they work with you, right? I mean, you know, just think of some of the, the major brands out there that have millions of dollars of research and teams behind it. You know, when you, when you look at, you know, the difference between, you know, a Hyundai and a BMW, right? You can immediately think like, you know, if I had a BMW, how would it make me feel, right? Versus, you know, a 4-cylinder Honda, you know, Honda or Hyundai, you know, Accent or something like that, right? They each have their own market and their own demographic that they're trying to target, um, but it's— it comes down to that feeling, um, that you want them to have. And, you know, just running an ad or having a a newspaper, you know, advertising executive, you know, write something and publish it for you is not marketing, right? You're running an ad that's in there. So that was been the biggest one. A lot of times too, and not so much now, but probably in the last 5 years, people that would start out with a business and they know, I know I need to get a website designed, and you build them a website and they put it online and they're like, well, I just searched for You know, that shoes for sale in my shoe store doesn't come up number one. Well, no, it's not going to because you don't have the credibility yet. There's so much that has to be done to start to earn that place, right? You're not going to, you're not going to start playing hockey today and play in the NHL tomorrow, right? It just doesn't happen. You have to earn that spot and you have to really, you know, prove your position there. And marketing is exactly the same way. Doesn't mean that you're going to have to spend millions of dollars if you are, you know, a small business to get, get known. You just need to be consistent. So, you know, you can either spend a lot of money doing one thing and just like pound that into people's brains and that's how they know about you. Or you can spend, you know, less money but do that one thing in multiple places. And then it's just the, you know, the law of multiplication that the more they see that same messaging, that same feel, it's going to resonate even more. So, you know, your website, your social media, your, your voicemail, your email signature, the vehicle decals, you know, you know, how you present your business, how you talk about your business, it all needs to be together as one.

Yeah. And kind of circling back to that whole concept of advertising versus marketing, I'll admit, you know, when I was going into my marketing program for school, I had no idea how many intricacies there were in marketing. And I think for people who aren't trained to see those intricacies and see how well or not well they're being executed, it's really hard for them to understand because a lot of marketing is the subconscious. Like we released a post just I think this week about the psychology of colors in marketing, which somebody who wasn't trained to think of that would never have any idea that you know, a post or a brand chose a specific color to elicit a specific emotion, right? And I think that's also why sometimes marketing can get the reputation of being manipulating consumers or manipulating clients into buying things because we're targeting that subconscious. So, what would you kind of say to that?

Well, I mean, what is the ultimate goal of a business is to sell a product or a service and make money, right? And understanding how people buy, how people react, how people feel when they see your brand is extremely important. So, it's not so much manipulation. It's more so understanding, you know, the willingness to take the time to understand what that person needs. So, if, you know, if somebody had a flood in their basement, you know, and you're a company that does, you know, disaster recovery and you just go out there and say, yeah, we'll clean up your basement. That's your marketing message. Or, you know, we got you. You know, we are here to comfort you in this time of need, right? That's what the people want. What's the emotion they're searching for at the time of that disaster is they want comfort. They want to know that their belongings are going to get recovered and saved and they're going to get back to their home. In a timely manner. And ultimately, those companies that can resonate with that can charge more because people are, you know, as human beings, we're willing to pay a higher premium for what we actually want versus something that we're not really sure we're going to get it. You know, and then we're, you know, searching for the cheapest dollar that's there. You know, there's that old adage that, you know, it's either, you know, fast, cheap, or good. And you can only have two of those. You can't have all three, right? And that's true in anything that you're doing. But, you know, understanding that, you know, what is that emotion? You know, there are things that people, you know, when they buy, there's purchases that are towards purchases and there are away purchases. You know, a towards purchase is like a boat or a car or an ATV. And away is something like insurance or, you know, like investments and stuff like that. You know, you're putting money out you don't really reap the benefits of it, but you know you have to do it. So you really, you're kind of like, I don't want to buy it, but I have to. Whereas the towards ones are, this is something I can enjoy right now. I can, it enhances my life. You know, you go clothes shopping, you know, you get a new pair of shoes or something like that. You want that. You know, a lot of times you don't necessarily need it, but you want it. And those brands are really good at making you feel those endorphins, you know, that, you know, that whole serotonin boost and stuff that you're going to get when you see that and feel that. Um, and, you know, a lot of times different mediums will allow you to do that. You know, video commercials on TV, you can see, you can hear, whereas print, you can't necessarily hear, um, you know, the part of it, you just have to see it. So the different advertising methods are different that way. But as for the manipulation thing, um, I think it's those people that are a little bit, you know, have been through buyer's remorse because they're like, I bought something I didn't really need. It wasn't the advertiser's fault, it's just that you know you were very easily, um, attracted to it, um, and you didn't really take the time to do it. So it's not the advertiser's fault, uh, in that. Now, you know, there are people out there that use these methods for no, not so good. You know, when they sell subpar products promising more by doing it. But you know, that's in anything that's out there. But you know, just understand what it is you want to have come across. And one other example of that, you know, in Halifax, there's a hotel in an area called Chocolate Lake. They have a, you know, it's called the Chocolate Lake Best Western or something. I don't know what the exact name is. But the fact that it's in this area and chocolates in it. They used to have, and they may still do it, but they had a chocolate scent generator in their lobby. So when you came in, you smelled chocolate. There was a chocolate lab that was the, the, like, the hotel pet that would just roam around there. And they really did a great job of building the, you know, the feeling of family there. And you'd come in and people love to go there for that, and they really grabbed a hold of that feeling and the idea of chocolate in there. I mean, who doesn't like the smell of chocolate? And if you, if you don't like the smell of chocolate, I don't know, I don't know what's wrong with you. But, um, it's just something that, that I think was part of their brand that you would have never really thought of normally until you saw it in action.

Yeah, yeah. Now with that being said, there are certainly examples of, um, kind of misconduct in the whole marketing advertising the world. Um, we spent multiple units, uh, throughout my education on examples of, you know, advertising disasters or marketing disasters, mostly because I think it was really entertaining for the, uh, the professors. But, uh, do you have any, uh, any examples of, you know, kind of advertising or marketing mess-ups in your head that have just kind of always that's stuck with you?

Not exactly anyone that I can remember from the exact time, but keeping in mind that if you've come up with something, you think, hey, this is brilliant, you know, don't really put it out right away. Start to look at how could this be perceived. You know, we are unfortunately an extremely hypersensitive society now. You know, when you look at the amount of children's books and things that are being retracted and pulled out of libraries and shows because of the connotations that are perceived now because everyone has this huge sensitivity filter on. You got to look at how would that be perceived. Is there any cultural things that perceive that saying or that phrase or that product being presented that way that would offend? Because a lot of times you could put something out and you could have this huge backlash on it because you didn't really consider that. So that's one of the things that are there. But I don't have exact examples to talk about for that.

Yeah. And that's kind of where that collaboration piece comes in too, because the more people that you get to bounce your ideas off of, the more, you know, kind of filtering you get. But the one example I will never forget because it came up in almost every single discussion about PR disasters or advertising disasters in pretty much every course was the Kendall Jenner and Pepsi commercial. Do you remember that one?

Not off the top of my head, no.

So basically the whole concept was there was these protesters at these rallies, which obviously that's a sensitive topic. And so the whole kind of problem with it was that it basically suggested that Kendall Jenner walked up with a Pepsi can, offered it to the cops, and then everybody cheered. And so people just said it was really insensitive. And, you know, a lot of memes and backlash on the internet about, oh, who knew to, you know, solve systematic racism, we just had to offer the cops a Pepsi from Kendall Jenner, you know, that kind of idea where there was the good intention, but it just— the message was so, so, so far off.

Yeah. And then there's also, you know, strategic publicity stunts that are put out there to seem like a mistake only to get that, that, you know, mass press attention that's there. Right. And, you know, when that's done on purpose, it's been well thought out as to, you know, when this blows up and has a negative feel, how are we going to spin this? Right. And that's when the PR side comes in. And don't mix up marketing and PR. They are completely different things. And there are people that specialize in marketing and there's people that specialize in PR. Like if you listen to our last episode, the guest we had on is specialized in PR, not necessarily in marketing. So, you're not going to get PR advice, good PR advice from a marketing firm.

Yeah, for sure. So what are your personal thoughts on the whole concept of all publicity is good publicity?

I mean, anytime you get publicity, if it's negative publicity, it can actually sink you if you're not prepared for it. Most everything does blow over in time, and if you're willing to wait that out, But I mean, if you're going month to month, you're a small business and you make a mistake that kind of, you know, upsets your community, it's going to be hard to get through that one because, you know, you are in a small community. But if you're selling products nationally and, you know, one product, you know, has a negative issue with it, you know, for example, there was a, a farm here in our local area where they had a lot of, um, I think it was Listeria or some kind of bacteria in it a couple years ago, uh, and they were getting all these recalls and people were like, oh, it's going to sink the brand. It didn't sink the brand. The brand's still going and they're growing. They just waited through it. They fixed it. They admitted to it. Um, and if it's a legitimate thing that you messed up and didn't know, just admit to it. Be like, you know, we're sorry, we apologize, we did not know, we will make sure it never happens again. You know, don't try to fight back and be like, well, no, this doesn't— no, this shouldn't offend you because that's only going to fuel that fire. You know, everybody's their own activist now, and it's very hard to, to really win that battle.

Definitely. For sure. All right. And I have one last question to kind of wrap up this unique episode.

And thank you if anyone's made it all the way through 40-some minutes of the episode listening to me ramble.

Well, I found it very interesting. I wanted— I definitely— some of these questions I didn't even have to look into. They were just things I wanted to know about you.

So hey, you know, if you're, if you're listening at this point, send me an email to hello@bluecowmarketing.ca and say, I listen to this, send me a free book, and I will actually mail you out a free book.

Do that right now.

You're that— let's just see if anyone's actually listening.

Not surprised that people are that interested in your life.

Hey, that's right, it's not a book about me, don't worry.

All right, so I just want to know if there's, you know, since the very beginning of your kind of entrepreneurial career, you know, even in high school when you were being a DJ, is there one kind of business philosophy that you've, you've kind of kept close to you throughout your whole, your whole career?

Yeah, it's you have to relate to the person you're doing business with. If you're only focused on the transaction, the business side, you're not going to keep those relationships, you know, long term. I can look back at the clients that have been with me for 10+ years, and I know them. Before we started working, they weren't friends. But, you know, I know them personally now. You know, we're connected online. If I see them, they know, you know, They know about Cameron. They know, you know, things are going on and it's a relationship. It's like a friendship. And, you know, if you can show that you're human and you genuinely care about their success, their growth, not only just in their business, but them personally, you know, if they're having a bad day and you can pick up on it, you know, and you can just, you know, relate to that, it's going to go a long way. Um, you know, you will start to, to see that come through, and you'll actually start to see getting referrals from people because they're like, you know what, this person is just, you know, they've always been there for us, um, no matter what we, you know, problems we had. And that's the best kind of relationship you can get and the best kind of referral versus, hey, you know what, they can go and do this, you know, they can build you this website, or they can, you know, do these social media posts for you.. But if they take the time to actually get to know who I am and what matters to me before they even started to do the work, people love that because we've gone through this era of going from personal relationships. And the story that I originally had, anytime I've done public speaking starts with about my grandfather and me being so small that I remember sitting on his workbench when he would repair TVs, and I would go on deliveries with him. And this is back before TVs were like disposable. People would actually invest, and you'd get them repaired and they'd come back, right? And we'd go and deliver them, and we would be like at the person's house for like 2 hours, um, and he'd be talking to them and, you know, sitting down, and, you know, it's just like we're going to visit friends, um. And that relationship has stuck through to me that You know, that was the key thing that was important. And, you know, even early on in business, I said if I ever got to the point where I scaled and I lost touch in being able to relate to my clients, I've either grown too fast or I missed a step somewhere.

Right on. I think that's excellent advice to any business owners listening as well.

Yeah, for sure.

This was fun. Yeah, it was. I learned a lot about you, Shaun.

You still want to work here? Yes, definitely. Okay, good, good. But yeah, there's so much, um, you know, there's so many pressure points that are impacting businesses these days, even more now than, you know, 3 years ago. Um, but realize you're not the only one, uh, out there. Right. It's, you know, I've seen this thing on Facebook this week about, you know, that phrase of we're all in the same boat. Well, we know we're not all in the same boat. We're all floating in the same ocean. We all have different boats. Some are bigger, some are smaller, some have holes, some have bigger holes than not. But the reality is we're all, you know, we're all in this the same kind of experience, so to speak. But we're dealing with it in different ways. And, you know, don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. You know what, there are times, and I'll admit this, and if you're a client who has experienced this with me, you may not have known at the time, but there are times where, you know, I've had a meeting booked with someone and I just wasn't feeling it. I wasn't feeling— not that I didn't want to talk to them, but I wasn't feeling I could give them the value. I was having a bad day or whatever, and I canceled the meeting and rescheduled it because I wanted to be able to be relatable to them. And I just, you know, it was a stressful day and I just wasn't feeling it. So don't be afraid to do that kind of stuff if you need to.

Yeah, right. So yeah, and I think that again is that really, really constructive advice that people are so hesitant to take because it feels counterproductive. But at the end of the day, you know, would you rather have an initial client meeting on a day where you're stressed and overwhelmed and can't do your best and then they have a negative view of you, or would you rather postpone that meeting, have an excellent, you know, initial kind of first impression where they go on and spread the word to many other people? You know, like you got to look at the long-term, long-term effects and benefits of the decisions you're making with your business.

Yeah. And that phrase of, you know, that you only get one chance to make that first impression, I think it's absolutely true. Especially if somebody has not done business with you before, even if they've been referred by, you know, somebody they know who has done business with you. You know, that's even probably the worst case to be going into that, you know, trying to make that first impression because you've been hyped up, right? You've been like, this person is amazing and do this, and you go in and you don't meet that expectation. I mean, you don't know what that expectation is because if I said to you, hey, this person is amazing, your thought of what amazing is different than what my thought of amazing is. So It's a moving target. So you really have to be even more impactful on that first impression. And follow-up is key. I mean, following up with people. We had a meeting with a client yesterday and I sent her a text a couple hours later thanking her, giving her an exact time. I'm like, by Monday, I will have your proposal to you. And she's like, this is amazing. Thank you. Nobody's ever said that. Right. So You know, that's, you know, it's just that follow-up and keeping that relationship going. Yeah, for sure. All right. So I'm assuming with no more questions, we're at the end of the show.

We are.

Yes. Excellent. So our guest that was originally scheduled for today is going to be— I think it's June 8th or something. He has rebooked for— it'll be in June. He is an SEO search engine optimization expert. We've been impressed with what we've seen online from him. We haven't talked to him yet, but SEO is extremely important. So stay tuned for an upcoming episode when we'll have him. I don't remember his name off the top of my head. You probably do. Jeff, somebody.

Peruka.

Peruka. Yes, he's from San Diego and is originally from Hawaii. Yes, I'm looking forward to having Jeff on the show and we'll bring that to you in an upcoming episode. And If you haven't subscribed yet, please do. Please leave a comment. If you want to reach us, you can email hello— I don't need to spell that— but it's at bluecowmarketing.ca. Thanks for listening, everyone.